THIS IS OFFICIAL. NOT SPECULATION. HE HAS BEEN CHARGED ON TWO COUNTS. HE'S BEEN SENTENCED. Short story, the gist if you will, feel free to look into this as much or little as you want, but this type of thing should be known in the community: Last year Bill Borgida was crossing the border,…
Quote This is the kind of thinking that bothers me. Informing your moral decisions based on how someone does things differently than you would, or further assuming that you can assess their motivations from these differences is deceptive.
Please tell me you are kidding. I am not making moral decisions in this situation. I am telling you that I don't need to assume or assess anything. This man admitted to have a LARGE volume of child porn.
Quote Please be upset about what actually happened and the actual damage it caused (however indirectly). Please do not drag in mostly unrelated things to support your ideas of how you are better than someone else, or to justify your dislike for someone.
I don't see much of that going on here. I have never met him. Most of the people who are upset have clearly stated that they are protecting the scene and tired of the favoritism for good dancers/teachers. I can speak for myself, Marcelo and Josh being people who have spent a lot of time with the "elite" dancers in the LA/OC area. We have seen how things that normally would get a guy decked have been left free from comment.
Quote In broad strokes it appears that those here who like Bill are giving him a lot of benefit of what doubt exists, and those who don't are painting him to be as much of a monster as they can get away with. I suppose it is human nature, but it seems that a lot of what is being said reflects almost as much about the person saying it as the person they are talking about.
I am willing to give a guy the benefit of the doubt in a mistake for things that aren't absolutely disgusting on all levels. He admitted to knowing that he had questionable material on there. That is a warning sign. I don't know him and I knew Mo Jones pretty well. The behavior and people's defense of said behavior is what has me upset. I liked Mo. He was always friendly and welcoming to me. He shared a lot of dance movement help with me when I first started dancing. That doesn't change my appreciation of that. I just don't see myself bringing him into my home anymore. He made a grave mistake and hurt a lot of people. Especially the girl he was dating and the 14 year old that he destroyed in the process.
Quote Child pornography is an emotionally charged subject, and as with many such subjects, open discourse is a good thing. I'm mostly surprised, though, with how important it seems to be to many people here that their specific moral views be what everyone should adopt. What makes you a better moral guide than the Christian Right, or extremist Muslims? I'm not saying anyone's morals are wrong here, just wondering how people justify condemning other moral codes while at the same time castigating those on this board who don't adhere to their own? (I shouldn't have to specify, but I'm talking about age differences in dating and maintaining friendships or working relationships with people who have made mistakes, not child molestation or child pornography)
I see a few people asking for a more careful approach to the things we allow to take place. That doesn't mean a witchhunt or an ageism discussion. Some of my favorite people in the still largely populated Socal Dance scene are the older people. We have embraced the age difference and the teaching that we have gotten from Hal Takier, Freda and Bart to name a few. It's rare to spend that time with such greats. But, when anyone begins to act innappropriate, it's fair to be aware of that behavior. It was common for Vicki/Kevin/John or I to privately talk with people at the old Memories club. Especially when they were acting out of line. Not necessarily based on views of Personal moral faith. Just common courtesy and basic social premise. If I was governing people based on my faith, this conversation would be a dramatically different one.
Quote As we move forward, do we want to enforce social standards and moral codes that are preventative in nature? Do we want to get into figuring out how to prosecute intentions and thought-crimes as well? Just asking.
I don't see anyone in this conversation going down that road. In my faith that you have pointed at, we are given the freedom to make choices. People aren't guilty of error based on temptation. They are guilty when they make choices that are wrong.
The same goes here. Bill's behavior has a checkered past. THAT behavior and his choices of illegal behavior made him lose his right to live the life that he enjoyed.
I have made many mistakes in my past. I can appreciate a second chance. When he gets out, he will have the chance to move forward in life.
Wait Titus, you're saying it's wrong for someone to announce to others what they think about these issues? I'm not trying to enforce my moral code on anyone, I'm not trying to change laws or beat people down. I'm just stating what I think. Feel free to state what you think.
Quote At the beginning of the study, 40 of 155 child pornography viewers were known child abusers. In the course of an 18-month treatment program, 131 of them admitted to "hands-on" offences with kids. The number of unique child victims rose from 75 to 1,777.
These statistics seem dubious. You can't have a representative sample of "child pornography viewers" because the vast majority of such people would never identify themselves--so you're pretty much stuck with those already in the legal system for child abuse cases, hence these ridiculously skewed statistics.
I'm not sure the percentage of those having child porn on their computers actually engaging in sexual assaults on those underage is much higher than those reading standard porn magazines (like Playboy/Penthouse) would be engaging in sexual assaults on adult women--perhaps around 5-10% max. This dance instructor has apparently gone through 60 years of living without assaulting anyone, so he seems to have normal internal safeguards against such behavior. Further, the type of child porn he had on his computer--if I understand correctly, several photos of 15-17 yr. old girls amongst hundreds of photos of adult women--does not appear to indicate that those underage are his primary sexual interest.
excuse me? I cited alcohol and sex as two distinct things under the umbrella of activities some late teens and young adults in our scene engage in because we "treat everyone like they're 23", and (thought at least) made clear that I see a distinction between allowing a younger person to make their own life choices, such as what to drink or with whom to sleep, and actual predatory behavior.
If there's actual predatory behavior, then that's a problem. But if you just don't like the fact a 20 year old is choosing to have sex with a 40 year old man, that's tough for you. You can choose not to sleep with a 40 year old if you feel that way.
And save the daughter stuff. It makes you look like the lawyer who has to bang his hand as hard as he can on the table.
You can find the study here:http://www.springerlink.com/content/c313832g17rt2850/, and it clearly states they were studying groups of offenders who were not known child abusers... making comparisons with those who were (the 40 were.)
The sample was not representative of everyone who uses child pornography, since it was limited to people who were convicted of it, and did state something along the lines of the police only pursue what they see as serious cases.
It does sound like Bill Borgida fits in with the group of people who have actually been convicted. I did not read the whole thing, but I believe the study was done on prison inmates, and I couldn't tell from anything I saw here what Borgida's sentence actually was?
Uhm... I've never taken a class from Bill, and I've never met him. I read the court documents, and his email, both first hand documents, not random opinions, and asked some legitimate questions about things that seem awfully inappropriate to me.
I'm also curious about the very clear use of the word "child" in the court documents, as opposed to "minor." I would not consider a 17 year old a child.
Bill's own email states that he realized he had questionable items. Why? I'm sorry, but I think knowingly having pictures or video of someone underage engaging in sexual acts is WRONG. And that's not my personal moral choice, that's a line that has been drawn legally within our society, and for good reason.
Child pornography contributes to sex trafficking, abuse of children, drug abuse of children, death of children, kidnapping of children, etc. etc. etc. I'm okay with a zero tolerance policy. Maybe it will make people think twice about whether it's acceptable to have sex with a 16 year old.
People who engage in this sort of behavior like to excuse it. But it's inexcusable. And I think sugar coating it is pretty silly.
I'm also a little... perturbed... by the comment that he had the "fiercest female prosecuter in the state." Why does it matter that it was a female?
Originally posted Saturday, January 16, 2010 (2 years ago)
Edited on Saturday, January 16, 2010 11:16 pm (2 years ago)
fwiw, I support Bill's friends supporting him through this difficult time. He needs that support, and I do believe and hope that he will emerge from prison with a different understanding.
I must admit, I wouldn't hire him for a workshop again, personally, and I think his professional career will be significantly damaged, but I think that is part and parcel of paying for his crime. He will need help through that as well.
I think he's extremely lucky to have gotten as light a sentence as he has, and I hope that others who hear this story will take the issue of child pornography more seriously. Frankly, I hope they will take the issue of pornography (and prostitution) more seriously.
I'm also grateful for the men and women in the FBI who work tirelessly every day to stop the flood of child porn with a thimble. It must be exhausting, frustrating work.
Quote 1) Why carry that much cash? I cannot imagine being paid $10,000 in cash from a single workshop payment, or working enough private lessons to get that much $. When I hired people, we paid check or money order. I also can't imagine continuing to carry it around. That's a LOT of cash. That says to me that he wasn't declaring the payments to the IRS or he got the money somewhere else
His apparent nondeclaration of that $$$ does seem particularily suspicious, because I think failure to disclose sums greater than that amount leaves you open to confiscation of the money. Certainly, if I were taking that much cross-border I would immediately declare it lest Canadian or US customs officials confiscate it.
My guess is that the child porn was easier and faster to prosecute, and would give him more time in prison than failure to disclose the money, so prosecutors didn't bother with that issue.
Quote It's sad... but I'm sorry, I feel much worse for the children who are being abused. While his letter makes a great case for how he feels sorry and he understands what he did wrong, apparently putting him in jail was the only way to get him to stop, and that isn't unusual in people who find pleasure in such things.
If you care about the children, you would want to focus on (1) who those children are so you can free them, (2) who is taking the pictures of those children so you can arrest them, (3) (if there is sexual activity in the photo) who the adults are in the photo so you can arrest them as well, and (4) who is actually buying these photos to feed this business, so they can be arrested. I'm concerned that the government isn't going sufficiently against (1), (2), (3), and (4) and instead just going for the quick easy victories in locking this dude up for five years. (1) through (4) are vital if we really are interested in fighting child abuse. Otherwise, we're just serving the Prison Industry which gets rich by filling up prisons with people stupid enough to download these photos.
Depending on the percentage of the porn that was actually of underage women, I'm not persuaded that what this dance instructor did is actually worse than drunk driving, a crime that would certainly not give him a 5-year term. Only (2) through (4) above automatically exceeds a DUI, and as far as I can tell he hasn't done any of that.
I'm also not comfortable with this law due to its inflexibility--if someone downloads 1000 photos all at once and even one turns out to be of a juvenile--there's your five year term right there. Assuming it costs $40K/year to imprison someone, that means the US needs to get another $200,000 in debt to China for every weirdo. So long as (2)-(4) have not occurred, why not just skip the prison term, fine the dude $20K or so, and have him do 500 hours of community service? The $220K difference ($200K saved + $20K fine), if otherwise spent on kids, can do a lot more good than just locking him up.
Your "moral code" seems pretty intolerant. The interactions between a 22 year and a 50 year old has nothing to do with me nor my opinions. They are fully responsible adults free to reject, accept, ridicule each other to their heart's content. I don't give a damn.
Originally posted Saturday, January 16, 2010 (2 years ago)
I read some info on "child pornography" and there are some quirky aspects of this law.
If an artist decided to draw a 17 year 364 day old cartoon character (let's say he draws his/her birth certificate as well) engaging in a sex act, the artist is in possession of child pornography.
Founded in 1996, the Association of Sites Advocating Child Protection (ASACP) is a non-profit organization dedicated to eliminating child pornography from the Internet. ASACP battles child pornography through its CP reporting hotline, and by organizing the efforts of the online adult industry to combat the heinous crime of child sexual abuse. ASACP also works to help parents prevent children from viewing age-inappropriate material online.
* ASACP provides an online hotline for web surfers and webmasters to report suspected child pornography. Our many member sites provide links to this hotline, which receives thousands of reports every month.
* ASACP investigates these reports and determines the hosting, billing, IP address, ownership, and linkage of suspected CP sites. ASACP then forwards Red Flag reports to the appropriate government agencies and associations. These include the FBI and the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children, as well as European hotlines. We also notify ISPs and payment processors when their hosting and billing services are hijacked by CP operators.
* ASACP's Approved Member program for adult sites offers a model of effective self-regulation for the online adult industry. Approved Member sites are required to comply with our Code of Ethics.
* ASACP has established Best Practices for members, which are recommended not just for adult sites, but also for search engines, billing and hosting companies, dating sites, and others.
* ASACP created the RTA ("Restricted to Adults") label to better enable parental filtering, and to demonstrate the online adult industry's commitment to helping parents prevent children from viewing age-inappropriate content.
* ASACP keeps its members informed on current laws and regulations pertaining to child pornography and child protection, as well as new and pending legislation.
* ASACP works to educate and inform its members, the online adult industry, government policy makers, and the public about issues related to child protection, illegal online activities, and the efforts of the online adult industry to battle child sexual abuse.
ASACP is a non-profit 501(c)(4) Social Welfare Organization.
Originally posted Sunday, January 17, 2010 (2 years ago)
Bill has been a close friend of mine for over ten years. When he called to tell me what he had done, I was shocked, saddened, and disappointed. I believe that what he has done is wrong, it is illegal, and my heart breaks for the children and teenagers who are photographed.
I have worked with children most of my life and have also been the victim of sexual abuse. I make my judgements about this situation with a wide range of experiences behind me.
All that being said, I stand by Bill during this time. I understand that what he did was wrong, illegal, and disturbing. I also understand that Bill is an incredibly wonderful, sensitive, funny, caring, supportive friend who has changed my life for the better simply by being a part of it.
I know the facts of the case that many commenting here do not. I have made my decision to support him knowing those facts. I do not feel the need to share those facts as some sort of defense of my decision because I am wholly content with my decision to stand by him. I do not need the approval of Yehoodi posters. No offense to you guys, you are certainly entitled to your opinions. :)
What I would like to say is that we have all done things at one point or another that we are not proud of. Some of us have even done illegal things and have been lucky that we weren't caught. Until the day my sh*t stops stinking, I will try my best to place myself in someone else's shoes before judging and realize that I may not know all the facts. Heck some of the 'facts' you guys are stating are just plain wrong. They certainly don't include all the facts, details.
I am proud to say that I am one of the people who wrote a letter for the judge.
Originally posted Sunday, January 17, 2010 (2 years ago)
I wonder if this much effort in finding this perverts innocence would be equally awarded to a new comer to this scene. You guys are fighting , Fighting accepting the truth about this guy. It saddens me that you would rather put the effort to find a loop hole and excuse to prove how harsh the law is on a sexual offender than support the strict stance that exists to protect CHILDREN.
I truly hope many of you are simply trying to argue for the sake of taking an opposng stance.
Otherwise, and even then, those sexual offenders who have not been caught who are reading will feel encouraged that their dance friends will come to their protection, even if they admit their crime.
Originally posted Sunday, January 17, 2010 (2 years ago)
Elisabeth Kübler-Ross presented her Kübler-Ross model in the late 60's book "On Death and Dying". Originally it applied to terminal illness, but later she applied it to loss in general including divorce, loss of freedom, employment, stuff like that.
It's a theory, not gospel but I suspect elements of it may be at work for many of us, particularly folks who have/had a relationship with Bill or for folks surviving sexual abuse.
Or not. Just throwing it out there.
Thought of her theory and immediately pegged WOY as in the anger stage. Me? Rollercoasting through a few of 'em...
Originally posted Sunday, January 17, 2010 (2 years ago)
Wow. For years, I told my best female friend in the swing scene how amazing Bill Borgida was, that he was the best teacher I ever had, and she should seek him out wherever he might be. At SONH, she finally did -- and later remarked to me that she found him "creepy" and disliked him instinctively. She said something to the effect of, "If you're a female over the age of 30, you're totally invisible to him."
So I'm both shocked and not surprised, on different levels. More than anything, though, I'm sad. I know it's absurd, even offensive, to talk about what a great teacher he was in the face of this terrible crime, but I can't help but be especially saddened that these deeds were committed by someone who meant so much to so many of us. Bill made me feel confident and pleased with my dancing at a time when other teachers often just made me feel worthless. He had a real gift. Maybe I should say he has a real gift, but I can't imagine that he'll be able to make a living teaching ever again. Certainly I would never give him money again, and I was once one of his biggest fans. The fact that he's thrown all that away is a very small tragedy compared to the awfulness behind the images he possessed, but it's a tragedy nonetheless.
My first objection was to the people who are drawing random and arbitrary conclusions from his carrying cash or external hard drives, or downloading any porn in the first place because it isn't what they would do.
As for my final point, this conversation is much further down that road than I expected it to be. If people think we need to do more to prevent various things in our scene, I'd like the discussion to also include where we draw the line.
Marcelo, I'm not saying people shouldn't have or express opinions, just that there seems to be a complete lack of respect for differing opinions by some people here.
A line has to be drawn somewhere. For the most part, a person is considered adult from age 18 (serve in the military, get married, be charged as an adult for a crime) so I guess 18 is a reasonable age to mark as the borderline between consenting adults engaging in pornographic acts, and minors being potentially coerced and abused by pornographic acts.
It's all random - some 15-year-olds are, IMHO, able to handle marriage and some 28-year-olds are far too immature ... but a line still has to be drawn for the general population.
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
There is a reason why people under the age of 18 require legal guardians. They are not adults and have a tendency to not always make the best decisions. I know from experience what happens when you set loose a 17 year old girl around older men and alcohol, and trust me, it isn't anything good. I made terrible mistakes that placed me in dangerous situations that still haunt me to this day when I was that age, because I was too immature to make better decisions.
I am only 25 now, but I can tell you that there is a HUGE difference in my current decision-making abilities from when I was 17. 17 year olds, even ones 'mature for their age' often make stupid choices. Which is why they need parents.
With regards to Bill...I can't put into words what I am thinking. I've been more or less friends with him (in the sense that we talk and dance when we are at the same events) for years, and I am seriously disgusted at all of this. I don't care if he's always been friendly, or what a great teacher he is- there is no excuse for any involvement whatsoever regarding child porn.
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
Quote Otherwise, and even then, those sexual offenders who have not been caught who are reading will feel encouraged that their dance friends will come to their protection, even if they admit their crime.
But he isn't a sexual offender--he would have had to physically molest someone for that to have been the case, or funded others doing the same, and through 60 years, that hasn't happened yet.
He was just caught with some illegal photos on his machine, apparently a severe minority among all other porn on his laptop. Viewing his porn would probably indicate his interests are most primarily if not exclusively with adult women.
According to an earlier post the feds were apparently able to recover files that he had previously deleted containing underage nudes. But doesn't the very fact that he deleted the files indicate that his interests are NOT in underage women? Since when does one delete the porn that one likes?
WeOwnYou, are you involved in the corrections business, or the prison construction industry, or do you provide food/services to prisons? I want to make sure there is no financial conflict of interest in what you are proposing.
Assuming--very conservatively--the feds spent $300K to investigate this guy for a year, and will spend $200K to lock him up for five years ($40K * 5), all told, the federal government will have gotten another $500K in debt to Red China over all this. What you are proposing, mandatory 5-year prison terms for anyone caught with one single underage porn photo out of countless megabytes of other porn on his machine could easily ensnare hundreds of thousands of more people, even though the vast majority of them would never be child molesters. That would result in us getting hundreds of billions more in debt to China for all this. This in addition to all the lost tax revenue from people previously employed and now rotting in prisons instead. Large fines and bunches of hours of community service is the better alternative.
Originally posted Sunday, January 17, 2010 (2 years ago)
Edited on Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:47 am (2 years ago)
Quote But he isn't a sexual offender--he would have had to physically molest someone for that to have been the case, or funded others doing the same, and through 60 years, that hasn't happened yet.
Child porn is a visual record of child abuse, and those who own and view it are just as big of a problem as those who create it.
I don't know about the state he lives in, I do know that in the state of Colorado he would be required to register as a sex offender once he served his sentence.
Originally posted Sunday, January 17, 2010 (2 years ago)
Edited on Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:50 am (2 years ago)
I don't know who We Own You is but there could have been a more diplomatic way to begin this thread. I have no compassion for sex offenders but these people have families and friends who still care about them, support them and actually want them to seek help. It seems like the whole point of the thread was to destroy his career. It is not always black and white. Bill can be a very decent person with a deep seated problem. Anyone who took PSY 101 will know that some people have no control over these urges. Bill should have been seeking help (maybe he did).
I really hope when this is all over that Bill can still teach. I am sure he will not be allowed to teach minors and this is how it should be. We Own You, you may be a good person but you have shown very little compassion here.
The guy who came up with the 'half your age plus seven' rule also said this:
“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”
Originally posted Sunday, January 17, 2010 (2 years ago)
To me, while this is a criminal offense with jailtime, Bill's behavior requires additional treatment. I am curious as to whether he has sought treatment in the past or would be required to receive it while incarcerated. This has been a long discusssion post, and I didn't read every word, but I didn't see anywhere that Bill acknowledged his behavior as a much deeper problem in need of treatment.
I had the same observations as your friend, Nightfly. I met Bill when I was about 19 years old, and thought he was creepy. Nice, but creepy.
I'm not suprised about this. I had a real gut reaction upon our first meeting. And I'm thrilled he was caught. I can surmise that this has been an ongoing problem for him, and he was obviously powerless in his addiction. Only to say, this presents itself as a real addiction - something which can only be 'resolved' with professional help. He didn't have the fortitude to realize this problem and go to treatment on his own, so now the government has to step in. Good, I say. Someone had to!
Interventions bring the bottom to the addict, but Bill's friends or family may not have known enough to help in that way. So Bill found his own bottom. This may be just what he needs.
As a victim, myself, of child abuse, I think the punishment fits the crime. I also hope Bill get really good therapy and can work toward his lifelong path toward recovery. You are powerful when you can actually see the shark fin while floating helpless in the ocean...
Originally posted Sunday, January 17, 2010 (2 years ago)
Edited on Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:59 pm (2 years ago)
I'd like to say that for all of you who keep using rumors or 'creepy' feelings that you got from Bill when you were younger to somehow prove that he is a child molester, please stop. If you truly think that older men who date younger women equals a child molester, I hope that you also boycott all movies where an older actor has the young wife, or the boycott the music where the rockstar sleeps with 20-somethings, and boycott the businesses where the CEO has the young lady friend. If this behavior truly bothers you, then I just want to make sure you apply it evenly to everyone and that we're not in a situation where we're trying to mold the facts to fit the witch hunt.
Also, Bill could only date 18 year olds and he still would not have done anything illegal so please don't use his dating past as evidence that he's into kids. His relationships in the swing scene have been with women past the age of legal consent (polygraph proved that) and the women he dated certainly didn't have a problem with the age difference. If you have a problem with it, great, don't date him or anyone else his age. But please don't use this as some sort of evidence that proves Bill is evil.
If you have questions and are truly interested in the answers about what Bill had on his computer, please read Glen's last post.
Second point...Long before this happened, I've always felt that addiction to porn (even if it's all legal), interest in underage porn, etc. can be a true illness. In the last several years, I have stood by friends in the swing scene while they battled illnesses such as cancer and various addictions. I will certainly stand by Bill as he battles this. If you truly want someone who has a problem such as this to get better and stop doing this, flaming him on a discussion board certainly isn't going to help. I appreciate the people who have stated that these behaviors bother/disgust/horrify them and hope that he gets the help he needs. Those who just want to throw people in jail for this offense need to really look at how much that will help. Instead of flaming Bill, take this time to write your representatives to ask for more rehabilitation programs and counseling in our prison system so inmates can actually get that help while serving their time.
Are you really so insecure that you need to make things up in order to make your point? Who here has been proclaiming that Bill is innocent? Who here has said that Bill's conduct was not criminal or should not be criminal?
No one here has fought against accepting the truth. You are the one who's fighting accepting the truth, because the truth about a person always includes more than just the worst thing they've done.
And before you get into gut-reaction, evidence-free, sweeping statements about how federal child pornography laws are there to "protect CHILDREN," you might want to do some research into reality. Not all sexual desires are equally reprehensible, from a societal perspective (see, e.g., statutory rape statute age ranges). Not all statutory regimes are perfectly effective in dealing with the actual, as opposed to the perceived, problem (see, e.g., sentencing guidelines for crack v. powder cocaine). Not all sexual offenders (as that term is defined) are equally dangerous or equally deserving of scorn/ostracism. Actually understanding that requires an adult mind. You seem not to be using yours.
The flat 18-year limit and the five-year mandatory minimum haven't been proven necessary to the protection of children. They haven't been proven the best way of addressing the sexual abuse of children. They're just Congress's shoot-from-the-hip attempt to legislate, and it's in an area where what people "feel" or "think" without any actual research will always trump a rational solution.
Bill Borgida: Two Counts: Child Porn.
THIS IS OFFICIAL. NOT SPECULATION. HE HAS BEEN CHARGED ON TWO COUNTS. HE'S BEEN SENTENCED. Short story, the gist if you will, feel free to look into this as much or little as you want, but this type of thing should be known in the community: Last year Bill Borgida was crossing the border,…
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Me neither. A sexualized girl wouldn't threaten my worldview either. But in the wrong hands, a sexualized girl could be a very, very dangerous thing.
you just got to listen to the music, 'cause it's talkin' to you man! -frankie http://www.zazzle.com/anarchyforpresident
Please tell me you are kidding. I am not making moral decisions in this situation. I am telling you that I don't need to assume or assess anything. This man admitted to have a LARGE volume of child porn.
I don't see much of that going on here. I have never met him. Most of the people who are upset have clearly stated that they are protecting the scene and tired of the favoritism for good dancers/teachers. I can speak for myself, Marcelo and Josh being people who have spent a lot of time with the "elite" dancers in the LA/OC area. We have seen how things that normally would get a guy decked have been left free from comment.
I am willing to give a guy the benefit of the doubt in a mistake for things that aren't absolutely disgusting on all levels. He admitted to knowing that he had questionable material on there. That is a warning sign. I don't know him and I knew Mo Jones pretty well. The behavior and people's defense of said behavior is what has me upset. I liked Mo. He was always friendly and welcoming to me. He shared a lot of dance movement help with me when I first started dancing. That doesn't change my appreciation of that. I just don't see myself bringing him into my home anymore. He made a grave mistake and hurt a lot of people. Especially the girl he was dating and the 14 year old that he destroyed in the process.
I see a few people asking for a more careful approach to the things we allow to take place. That doesn't mean a witchhunt or an ageism discussion. Some of my favorite people in the still largely populated Socal Dance scene are the older people. We have embraced the age difference and the teaching that we have gotten from Hal Takier, Freda and Bart to name a few. It's rare to spend that time with such greats. But, when anyone begins to act innappropriate, it's fair to be aware of that behavior. It was common for Vicki/Kevin/John or I to privately talk with people at the old Memories club. Especially when they were acting out of line. Not necessarily based on views of Personal moral faith. Just common courtesy and basic social premise. If I was governing people based on my faith, this conversation would be a dramatically different one.
I don't see anyone in this conversation going down that road. In my faith that you have pointed at, we are given the freedom to make choices. People aren't guilty of error based on temptation. They are guilty when they make choices that are wrong.
The same goes here. Bill's behavior has a checkered past. THAT behavior and his choices of illegal behavior made him lose his right to live the life that he enjoyed.
I have made many mistakes in my past. I can appreciate a second chance. When he gets out, he will have the chance to move forward in life.
Wait Titus, you're saying it's wrong for someone to announce to others what they think about these issues? I'm not trying to enforce my moral code on anyone, I'm not trying to change laws or beat people down. I'm just stating what I think. Feel free to state what you think.
These statistics seem dubious. You can't have a representative sample of "child pornography viewers" because the vast majority of such people would never identify themselves--so you're pretty much stuck with those already in the legal system for child abuse cases, hence these ridiculously skewed statistics.
I'm not sure the percentage of those having child porn on their computers actually engaging in sexual assaults on those underage is much higher than those reading standard porn magazines (like Playboy/Penthouse) would be engaging in sexual assaults on adult women--perhaps around 5-10% max. This dance instructor has apparently gone through 60 years of living without assaulting anyone, so he seems to have normal internal safeguards against such behavior. Further, the type of child porn he had on his computer--if I understand correctly, several photos of 15-17 yr. old girls amongst hundreds of photos of adult women--does not appear to indicate that those underage are his primary sexual interest.
Glen
excuse me? I cited alcohol and sex as two distinct things under the umbrella of activities some late teens and young adults in our scene engage in because we "treat everyone like they're 23", and (thought at least) made clear that I see a distinction between allowing a younger person to make their own life choices, such as what to drink or with whom to sleep, and actual predatory behavior. If there's actual predatory behavior, then that's a problem. But if you just don't like the fact a 20 year old is choosing to have sex with a 40 year old man, that's tough for you. You can choose not to sleep with a 40 year old if you feel that way.
And save the daughter stuff. It makes you look like the lawyer who has to bang his hand as hard as he can on the table.
You can find the study here:http://www.springerlink.com/content/c313832g17rt2850/, and it clearly states they were studying groups of offenders who were not known child abusers... making comparisons with those who were (the 40 were.)
The sample was not representative of everyone who uses child pornography, since it was limited to people who were convicted of it, and did state something along the lines of the police only pursue what they see as serious cases.
It does sound like Bill Borgida fits in with the group of people who have actually been convicted. I did not read the whole thing, but I believe the study was done on prison inmates, and I couldn't tell from anything I saw here what Borgida's sentence actually was?
-- Rachel
Uhm... I've never taken a class from Bill, and I've never met him. I read the court documents, and his email, both first hand documents, not random opinions, and asked some legitimate questions about things that seem awfully inappropriate to me.
I'm also curious about the very clear use of the word "child" in the court documents, as opposed to "minor." I would not consider a 17 year old a child.
Bill's own email states that he realized he had questionable items. Why? I'm sorry, but I think knowingly having pictures or video of someone underage engaging in sexual acts is WRONG. And that's not my personal moral choice, that's a line that has been drawn legally within our society, and for good reason.
Child pornography contributes to sex trafficking, abuse of children, drug abuse of children, death of children, kidnapping of children, etc. etc. etc. I'm okay with a zero tolerance policy. Maybe it will make people think twice about whether it's acceptable to have sex with a 16 year old.
People who engage in this sort of behavior like to excuse it. But it's inexcusable. And I think sugar coating it is pretty silly.
I'm also a little... perturbed... by the comment that he had the "fiercest female prosecuter in the state." Why does it matter that it was a female?
fwiw, I support Bill's friends supporting him through this difficult time. He needs that support, and I do believe and hope that he will emerge from prison with a different understanding.
I must admit, I wouldn't hire him for a workshop again, personally, and I think his professional career will be significantly damaged, but I think that is part and parcel of paying for his crime. He will need help through that as well.
I think he's extremely lucky to have gotten as light a sentence as he has, and I hope that others who hear this story will take the issue of child pornography more seriously. Frankly, I hope they will take the issue of pornography (and prostitution) more seriously.
I'm also grateful for the men and women in the FBI who work tirelessly every day to stop the flood of child porn with a thimble. It must be exhausting, frustrating work.
His apparent nondeclaration of that $$$ does seem particularily suspicious, because I think failure to disclose sums greater than that amount leaves you open to confiscation of the money. Certainly, if I were taking that much cross-border I would immediately declare it lest Canadian or US customs officials confiscate it.
My guess is that the child porn was easier and faster to prosecute, and would give him more time in prison than failure to disclose the money, so prosecutors didn't bother with that issue.
If you care about the children, you would want to focus on (1) who those children are so you can free them, (2) who is taking the pictures of those children so you can arrest them, (3) (if there is sexual activity in the photo) who the adults are in the photo so you can arrest them as well, and (4) who is actually buying these photos to feed this business, so they can be arrested. I'm concerned that the government isn't going sufficiently against (1), (2), (3), and (4) and instead just going for the quick easy victories in locking this dude up for five years. (1) through (4) are vital if we really are interested in fighting child abuse. Otherwise, we're just serving the Prison Industry which gets rich by filling up prisons with people stupid enough to download these photos.
Depending on the percentage of the porn that was actually of underage women, I'm not persuaded that what this dance instructor did is actually worse than drunk driving, a crime that would certainly not give him a 5-year term. Only (2) through (4) above automatically exceeds a DUI, and as far as I can tell he hasn't done any of that.
I'm also not comfortable with this law due to its inflexibility--if someone downloads 1000 photos all at once and even one turns out to be of a juvenile--there's your five year term right there. Assuming it costs $40K/year to imprison someone, that means the US needs to get another $200,000 in debt to China for every weirdo. So long as (2)-(4) have not occurred, why not just skip the prison term, fine the dude $20K or so, and have him do 500 hours of community service? The $220K difference ($200K saved + $20K fine), if otherwise spent on kids, can do a lot more good than just locking him up.
Glen
Your "moral code" seems pretty intolerant. The interactions between a 22 year and a 50 year old has nothing to do with me nor my opinions. They are fully responsible adults free to reject, accept, ridicule each other to their heart's content. I don't give a damn.
Why do you?
I read some info on "child pornography" and there are some quirky aspects of this law.
If an artist decided to draw a 17 year 364 day old cartoon character (let's say he draws his/her birth certificate as well) engaging in a sex act, the artist is in possession of child pornography.
Slightly tangential from the comment above...
If you come across child pornography and would like to report it:
http://www.fbi.gov/contact/fo/fo.htm
or contact ASACP:
http://asacp.org/index.php
Founded in 1996, the Association of Sites Advocating Child Protection (ASACP) is a non-profit organization dedicated to eliminating child pornography from the Internet. ASACP battles child pornography through its CP reporting hotline, and by organizing the efforts of the online adult industry to combat the heinous crime of child sexual abuse. ASACP also works to help parents prevent children from viewing age-inappropriate material online.
ASACP is a non-profit 501(c)(4) Social Welfare Organization.
Bill has been a close friend of mine for over ten years. When he called to tell me what he had done, I was shocked, saddened, and disappointed. I believe that what he has done is wrong, it is illegal, and my heart breaks for the children and teenagers who are photographed.
I have worked with children most of my life and have also been the victim of sexual abuse. I make my judgements about this situation with a wide range of experiences behind me.
All that being said, I stand by Bill during this time. I understand that what he did was wrong, illegal, and disturbing. I also understand that Bill is an incredibly wonderful, sensitive, funny, caring, supportive friend who has changed my life for the better simply by being a part of it.
I know the facts of the case that many commenting here do not. I have made my decision to support him knowing those facts. I do not feel the need to share those facts as some sort of defense of my decision because I am wholly content with my decision to stand by him. I do not need the approval of Yehoodi posters. No offense to you guys, you are certainly entitled to your opinions. :)
What I would like to say is that we have all done things at one point or another that we are not proud of. Some of us have even done illegal things and have been lucky that we weren't caught. Until the day my sh*t stops stinking, I will try my best to place myself in someone else's shoes before judging and realize that I may not know all the facts. Heck some of the 'facts' you guys are stating are just plain wrong. They certainly don't include all the facts, details.
I am proud to say that I am one of the people who wrote a letter for the judge.
I wonder if this much effort in finding this perverts innocence would be equally awarded to a new comer to this scene. You guys are fighting , Fighting accepting the truth about this guy. It saddens me that you would rather put the effort to find a loop hole and excuse to prove how harsh the law is on a sexual offender than support the strict stance that exists to protect CHILDREN.
I truly hope many of you are simply trying to argue for the sake of taking an opposng stance.
Otherwise, and even then, those sexual offenders who have not been caught who are reading will feel encouraged that their dance friends will come to their protection, even if they admit their crime.
Of course not. This is because people have feelings toward Bill that don't automatically go away because this happened.
You don't get to dictate how people should feel. So stop trying to make people feel the way you feel, or judging them.
This is a conversation (and so far a remarkably civil one) not your soapbox.
Awesome Dance Movies • Teaching Teens to Charleston is Awesome
Elisabeth Kübler-Ross presented her Kübler-Ross model in the late 60's book "On Death and Dying". Originally it applied to terminal illness, but later she applied it to loss in general including divorce, loss of freedom, employment, stuff like that.
It's a theory, not gospel but I suspect elements of it may be at work for many of us, particularly folks who have/had a relationship with Bill or for folks surviving sexual abuse.
Or not. Just throwing it out there.
Thought of her theory and immediately pegged WOY as in the anger stage. Me? Rollercoasting through a few of 'em...
Wow. For years, I told my best female friend in the swing scene how amazing Bill Borgida was, that he was the best teacher I ever had, and she should seek him out wherever he might be. At SONH, she finally did -- and later remarked to me that she found him "creepy" and disliked him instinctively. She said something to the effect of, "If you're a female over the age of 30, you're totally invisible to him."
So I'm both shocked and not surprised, on different levels. More than anything, though, I'm sad. I know it's absurd, even offensive, to talk about what a great teacher he was in the face of this terrible crime, but I can't help but be especially saddened that these deeds were committed by someone who meant so much to so many of us. Bill made me feel confident and pleased with my dancing at a time when other teachers often just made me feel worthless. He had a real gift. Maybe I should say he has a real gift, but I can't imagine that he'll be able to make a living teaching ever again. Certainly I would never give him money again, and I was once one of his biggest fans. The fact that he's thrown all that away is a very small tragedy compared to the awfulness behind the images he possessed, but it's a tragedy nonetheless.
My first objection was to the people who are drawing random and arbitrary conclusions from his carrying cash or external hard drives, or downloading any porn in the first place because it isn't what they would do.
As for my final point, this conversation is much further down that road than I expected it to be. If people think we need to do more to prevent various things in our scene, I'd like the discussion to also include where we draw the line.
Marcelo, I'm not saying people shouldn't have or express opinions, just that there seems to be a complete lack of respect for differing opinions by some people here.
A line has to be drawn somewhere. For the most part, a person is considered adult from age 18 (serve in the military, get married, be charged as an adult for a crime) so I guess 18 is a reasonable age to mark as the borderline between consenting adults engaging in pornographic acts, and minors being potentially coerced and abused by pornographic acts.
It's all random - some 15-year-olds are, IMHO, able to handle marriage and some 28-year-olds are far too immature ... but a line still has to be drawn for the general population.
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
There is a reason why people under the age of 18 require legal guardians. They are not adults and have a tendency to not always make the best decisions. I know from experience what happens when you set loose a 17 year old girl around older men and alcohol, and trust me, it isn't anything good. I made terrible mistakes that placed me in dangerous situations that still haunt me to this day when I was that age, because I was too immature to make better decisions.
I am only 25 now, but I can tell you that there is a HUGE difference in my current decision-making abilities from when I was 17. 17 year olds, even ones 'mature for their age' often make stupid choices. Which is why they need parents.
With regards to Bill...I can't put into words what I am thinking. I've been more or less friends with him (in the sense that we talk and dance when we are at the same events) for years, and I am seriously disgusted at all of this. I don't care if he's always been friendly, or what a great teacher he is- there is no excuse for any involvement whatsoever regarding child porn.
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But he isn't a sexual offender--he would have had to physically molest someone for that to have been the case, or funded others doing the same, and through 60 years, that hasn't happened yet.
He was just caught with some illegal photos on his machine, apparently a severe minority among all other porn on his laptop. Viewing his porn would probably indicate his interests are most primarily if not exclusively with adult women.
According to an earlier post the feds were apparently able to recover files that he had previously deleted containing underage nudes. But doesn't the very fact that he deleted the files indicate that his interests are NOT in underage women? Since when does one delete the porn that one likes?
WeOwnYou, are you involved in the corrections business, or the prison construction industry, or do you provide food/services to prisons? I want to make sure there is no financial conflict of interest in what you are proposing.
Assuming--very conservatively--the feds spent $300K to investigate this guy for a year, and will spend $200K to lock him up for five years ($40K * 5), all told, the federal government will have gotten another $500K in debt to Red China over all this. What you are proposing, mandatory 5-year prison terms for anyone caught with one single underage porn photo out of countless megabytes of other porn on his machine could easily ensnare hundreds of thousands of more people, even though the vast majority of them would never be child molesters. That would result in us getting hundreds of billions more in debt to China for all this. This in addition to all the lost tax revenue from people previously employed and now rotting in prisons instead. Large fines and bunches of hours of community service is the better alternative.
Child porn is a visual record of child abuse, and those who own and view it are just as big of a problem as those who create it.
I don't know about the state he lives in, I do know that in the state of Colorado he would be required to register as a sex offender once he served his sentence.
I don't know who We Own You is but there could have been a more diplomatic way to begin this thread. I have no compassion for sex offenders but these people have families and friends who still care about them, support them and actually want them to seek help. It seems like the whole point of the thread was to destroy his career. It is not always black and white. Bill can be a very decent person with a deep seated problem. Anyone who took PSY 101 will know that some people have no control over these urges. Bill should have been seeking help (maybe he did). I really hope when this is all over that Bill can still teach. I am sure he will not be allowed to teach minors and this is how it should be. We Own You, you may be a good person but you have shown very little compassion here.
His actions will determine the fate of his career much more than this thread or any other thread.
The guy who came up with the 'half your age plus seven' rule also said this:
“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”
you just got to listen to the music, 'cause it's talkin' to you man! -frankie http://www.zazzle.com/anarchyforpresident
To me, while this is a criminal offense with jailtime, Bill's behavior requires additional treatment. I am curious as to whether he has sought treatment in the past or would be required to receive it while incarcerated. This has been a long discusssion post, and I didn't read every word, but I didn't see anywhere that Bill acknowledged his behavior as a much deeper problem in need of treatment.
I had the same observations as your friend, Nightfly. I met Bill when I was about 19 years old, and thought he was creepy. Nice, but creepy.
I'm not suprised about this. I had a real gut reaction upon our first meeting. And I'm thrilled he was caught. I can surmise that this has been an ongoing problem for him, and he was obviously powerless in his addiction. Only to say, this presents itself as a real addiction - something which can only be 'resolved' with professional help. He didn't have the fortitude to realize this problem and go to treatment on his own, so now the government has to step in. Good, I say. Someone had to!
Interventions bring the bottom to the addict, but Bill's friends or family may not have known enough to help in that way. So Bill found his own bottom. This may be just what he needs.
As a victim, myself, of child abuse, I think the punishment fits the crime. I also hope Bill get really good therapy and can work toward his lifelong path toward recovery. You are powerful when you can actually see the shark fin while floating helpless in the ocean...
Thanks for that, Beckto.
I'd like to say that for all of you who keep using rumors or 'creepy' feelings that you got from Bill when you were younger to somehow prove that he is a child molester, please stop. If you truly think that older men who date younger women equals a child molester, I hope that you also boycott all movies where an older actor has the young wife, or the boycott the music where the rockstar sleeps with 20-somethings, and boycott the businesses where the CEO has the young lady friend. If this behavior truly bothers you, then I just want to make sure you apply it evenly to everyone and that we're not in a situation where we're trying to mold the facts to fit the witch hunt.
Also, Bill could only date 18 year olds and he still would not have done anything illegal so please don't use his dating past as evidence that he's into kids. His relationships in the swing scene have been with women past the age of legal consent (polygraph proved that) and the women he dated certainly didn't have a problem with the age difference. If you have a problem with it, great, don't date him or anyone else his age. But please don't use this as some sort of evidence that proves Bill is evil.
If you have questions and are truly interested in the answers about what Bill had on his computer, please read Glen's last post.
Second point...Long before this happened, I've always felt that addiction to porn (even if it's all legal), interest in underage porn, etc. can be a true illness. In the last several years, I have stood by friends in the swing scene while they battled illnesses such as cancer and various addictions. I will certainly stand by Bill as he battles this. If you truly want someone who has a problem such as this to get better and stop doing this, flaming him on a discussion board certainly isn't going to help. I appreciate the people who have stated that these behaviors bother/disgust/horrify them and hope that he gets the help he needs. Those who just want to throw people in jail for this offense need to really look at how much that will help. Instead of flaming Bill, take this time to write your representatives to ask for more rehabilitation programs and counseling in our prison system so inmates can actually get that help while serving their time.
Are you really so insecure that you need to make things up in order to make your point? Who here has been proclaiming that Bill is innocent? Who here has said that Bill's conduct was not criminal or should not be criminal?
No one here has fought against accepting the truth. You are the one who's fighting accepting the truth, because the truth about a person always includes more than just the worst thing they've done.
And before you get into gut-reaction, evidence-free, sweeping statements about how federal child pornography laws are there to "protect CHILDREN," you might want to do some research into reality. Not all sexual desires are equally reprehensible, from a societal perspective (see, e.g., statutory rape statute age ranges). Not all statutory regimes are perfectly effective in dealing with the actual, as opposed to the perceived, problem (see, e.g., sentencing guidelines for crack v. powder cocaine). Not all sexual offenders (as that term is defined) are equally dangerous or equally deserving of scorn/ostracism. Actually understanding that requires an adult mind. You seem not to be using yours.
The flat 18-year limit and the five-year mandatory minimum haven't been proven necessary to the protection of children. They haven't been proven the best way of addressing the sexual abuse of children. They're just Congress's shoot-from-the-hip attempt to legislate, and it's in an area where what people "feel" or "think" without any actual research will always trump a rational solution.
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