Originally posted Thursday, January 28, 2010 (2 years ago)
Edited on Thursday, January 28, 2010 3:54 pm (2 years ago)
Quote Yes, I agree that Flash a total resource hog, but I think the decision to exclude it has more to do with protecting Apple's business model and AT&T's network. Enabling flash would open the door to competition from Flash-based apps outside Apple's control and streaming video (which would compete with their video sales as well as dramatically increase data usage on AT&T's already fragile network).
I don't know if this is really the problem. For one thing, Apple allows YouTube and I think they would be totally open to having NetFlix on their device if NetFlix felt like porting to the iPhone/iPad. Already, there are apps in the AppStore to sling video to your phone. So, I don't think video competition is really the issue.
I could see an attempt to either protect games partners or, more likely, to keep the experience good. Keep in mind that most flash apps, like games, require keyboard input. That just won't work on an iPhone. On a iPad, you get more screen real-estate, but there's still that problem of battery life.
Also, be aware that Apple has a blanket policy against any VM's. That's why there's no Java, Silverlight, or gameboy emulators available either. They're concerned about battery life and user-experience.
The user-experience thing seems arguable, but battery life is definitely a problem, at least with Flash in it's current incarnation.
Quote Also, isn't the upcoming Flash 10.1 supposed to support offloading of work to the Graphic Processor? Right now, Flash is CPU-intensive, which is why I advise folks who want to watch lots of hi-def steaming video to avoid netbooks. But in the future, the load should be reduced.
The Graphics Processor still draws power, no? As I understand it, the big problem is that Flash has a big behemoth of a code-base and Adobe is perfectly happy to limp along with "good enough". Adding GPU offload is probably going to be done by way of bolting on yet another feature without changing the core VM code too much. Adobe has not been cranking out the best code lately.
Now, this may change. With HTML 5 and Silverlight nipping at their heels, Adobe may actually get their act together and clean up Flash and make a reasonable implementation. Keep in mind that I think Google has already rolled out an experimental HTML 5 version of YouTube (See http://www.youtube.com/html5).
But, either way, I think everybody wins. Either people switch to HTML 5, and we get the stuff Flash has as part of web standards (like they should be), or Flash sucks less and has a shot of getting on portable hardware without killing battery life.
Quote The problem with Apple's decision is that it takes away choice. If I want to burn through battery watching flash, why shouldn't I be able to? Just another example of Apple's paternalism.
Eh, so go get a netbook or jailbreak the phone/pad. Seriously. Devices like this are specifically about the vertical integration Apple brings so that you get the best all-around experience. That often means sacrificing some of the bells and whistles, at least in the short term until Apple figures out a way to integrate new features in a way that still feels comfortable. My old WM5 phone had more ports, etc, than my iPhone, but I couldn't wait to ditch that POS, and it turns out that I don't miss that stuff at all because everything else works so great on the iPhone.
For the iPhone, I suspect battery life really was a key thing and that it was enough of a key thing that it was worth ditching Flash support. My guess is that they figured most people used flash to watch YouTube, play games, and the rest was mostly advertising dancing baloney. So you put YouTube support in an app, offer games through the app store, and the dancing baloney goes away in your browser (modulo animated GIFs). Now, on the iPad, they probably could have opened things up a bit more, and maybe they will eventually, but, for whatever reason (maybe time to market?) they're sticking with the iPhone plan on the iPad.
Is this perfect? Heck no. I'm sure the engineers would like to offer more, but they also have to meet design goals...which don't necessarily line up with HP's or the typical PC maker's design goals. And as the hardware gets better and the software (like flash or html5) get better, everything that really matters will eventually get integrated.
I'm not going to be buying one of these, because I'm doing fine with my iPhone + Mac, and I suspect that's the case for a lot of people on this board. But I can defintitely see markets for the iPad. Low-end PC people who really just want a compute appliance, some on-the-go type people (though, I suspect they may find they are better served by v2 of the iPad), kids/teens who would like internet access and games but their parents don't want to buy and maintain a completely open PC, eBook readers who aren't satisfied with the current platforms and maybe want more laptop-like things, educational institutions or students who can't break the bank on a new computer and would like to download textbooks at a cost savings, etc. etc.
I'm content with not being in the market segment for this device for the time being. Maybe rev 2 or 3 will be awesome enough that it's worth considering, but without seeing how this plays out, I think huffing about "Meh, no SD card slot or HDMI" is going to sound a little like "iPod, meh, not as good as my archos" if the iPad manages to get a good chunk of the market.
The only thing keeping it from working on an iPhone is Apple/AT&T not allowing it over 3G. Ideally, that wouldn't apply to the iPad, but you know as well as I do it'll never happen.
Apple's also got goofy restrictions on what Bluetooth devices it supports too. They're the most DRM-hungry player in the market.
Quoted from I The only thing keeping it from working on an iPhone is Apple/AT&T not allowing it over 3G. Ideally, that wouldn't apply to the iPad, but you know as well as I do it'll never happen.
Shockingly, I've got to eat my words in short order:
Quoted from mrz
Quote
The problem with Apple's decision is that it takes away choice. If I want to burn through battery watching flash, why shouldn't I be able to? Just another example of Apple's paternalism.
Eh, so go get a netbook or jailbreak the phone/pad. Seriously. Devices like this are specifically about the vertical integration Apple brings so that you get the best all-around experience. That often means sacrificing some of the bells and whistles, at least in the short term until Apple figures out a way to integrate new features in a way that still feels comfortable.
I agree with the Flash killing battery-life argument for the iPhone but not for this device, which has a larger form factor and a much bigger battery. With the iPhone (or any phone), battery life is a crucial factor.
However, for a device that claims to offer the best ever Web experience, not having Flash really is key omission. Yes, HTML 5 has lots of potential, but right now Flash is everywhere. Outside of YouTube, this device will not access most streaming video on the web, which is a major thing people do on the internet. Also, lots of useful webapps utilize Flash. (BTW, have you tried the Youtube HTML5 video player? It's quite mediocre and still uses a lot of the CPU).
This argument also ignores the great advances in chip design. The Apple A4 processor is a system on chip pairing a very fast ARM CPU (same as on Qualcomm's Snapdragon and Nvidia's TEGRA)to an ARM Graphics chip, which sips power while providing very strong graphics performance.
The iPhone is half phone/half web device. The iPad is a 90% web device. If they are estimating 10 hours of battery life watching video and browsing the web, surely there is plenty of battery power to surviving using Flash. And it's not like people use Flash apps 100% of the time. How hard would it be, I wonder, to put setting on Safari to enable or disable the Flashplayer plugin?
Great point, I did the same with my palm, was happy to combine my cell, palm and ipod into one device, but for me, the ipad, though it's another device, is one that combines computer and non-computer uses together: magazines, books, recipes, text and doc files. I'll use this around the house vs un-docking the laptop from the numerious cables it's teathered to (yeah I know, why do I have a laptop), and would only take the ipad out of the house on personal trips vs lugging a stack of magazines, books and comics with me.
The main irritation for me is no flash. There are numerious websites that use flash for many other things besides video, including navagation. Apple is consistantly mum about why no flash for the iphone, and Adobe has given up trying to get a response from them as well. It's just odd.
Yes, and Apple's lame excuse of banning the Google Voice because the dialer and voicemail features replicated core iPhone functions and might confuse users hold absolutely no water when it comes to the iPad.
Originally posted Thursday, January 28, 2010 (2 years ago)
From the NY Times article:
Quote
My main message to fanboys is this: it's too early to draw any conclusions. Apple hasn't given the thing to any reviewers yet, there are no iPad-only apps yet (there will be), the e-bookstore hasn't gone online yet, and so on. So hyperventilating is not yet the appropriate reaction.
At the same time, the bashers should be careful, too. As we enter Phase 2, remember how silly you all looked when you all predicted the iPhone's demise in that period before it went on sale.
Like the iPhone, the iPad is really a vessel, a tool, a 1.5-pound sack of potential. It may become many things. It may change an industry or two, or it may not. It may introduce a new category -- something between phone and laptop -- or it may not. And anyone who claims to know what will happen will wind up looking like a fool.
Yeah, the Apple site says it works with the Apple bluetooth keyboard. Though you'd have to prop the iPad up somehow. Maybe the case will be good enough.
I don't like how the keyboard dock only connects in portrait mode.
Originally posted Friday, January 29, 2010 (2 years ago)
I read an interesting bit of feedback in Engadget's (I think) review that I hadn't seen elsewhere:
This thing is NOT flat on the back, it's a bit convex. So, if you put it down on a table, and start typing on the on-screen keyboard, it wobbles about. That seems like a startling misstep for the company that's all about User Interface.
Except one is from a company that other companies follow and one isn't.
Here's what made the iPhone important - when it came out, every other cellphone company started making similar looking big touchscreen phones. It became the standard. When Apple co-opted app stores from the jailbreakers, it also became the standard for other systems. iPod too (suddenly a bunch of complicated metal MP3 players got sleeker and looked more like iPod bricks).
Similarly, apple's iPad has the potential to spur other companies to follow it. If iPad is successful it could completely change the handheld computing industry just because so many people follow Apple's lead. No one is going to suddenly come out with a million tablets because Archos released one.
I know you like being the anti-Apple contrarian, but no amount of trashing their product is going to change the fact that other companies look to Apple and follow Apple's lead on industrial design, on interface design, on technology trends and lifestyle. That fact alone makes Apple products important regardless of whether they're the best out there in terms of specs.
And hey, if you don't like it, feel free to buy something else. You can crow about it all you want and enjoy your contrarianism.
Originally posted Friday, January 29, 2010 (2 years ago)
I think this will be great in Gen 2/3, but I will wait to purchase until then. If I am going to spend that money, I will get my next Gen iPhone this fall.
sure, the iPad may have potential. it may become something and may even sell a whole heap of units. but even if it does, that still doesn't mean it is the best or most capable tablet out there. we can still judge it now, based on what it has or doesn't have. (there is a LOT of basic stuff it doesn't have, in my opinion).
Originally posted Friday, January 29, 2010 (2 years ago)
The iPad isn't a Tablet PC, though. That's something you have to take away from here. It's a big MID. The MID market has been a non-starter for the last couple of years. Screens have been small, functionality limited, and certainly no 3G.
The iPad is NOT a replacement for a laptop. It's not a replacement for a phone. It's something in the middle, for people who don't need the horsepower of a full-up PC but need more functionality than they can get on a phone.
Ultimately, there are people for whom the iPad will be useful. You may not be one of them. That doesn't change the fact that the device, and because of the Apple fanbase, marketing engine, and culture will not only be a financial success, but also a market-changer.
No he's not, he's a fanboy of gadgets that work and software that makes sense (and that he has personally tested). If they don't, regardless of the manufacturer, he prints it.
I read Pogue's stuff a lot. He's very pro-Mac (sometimes for good reasons, but I personally think some of his opinions are overreaching). It doesn't surprise me in the least that he wants to wait things out with the iPad before taking deserved shots at it.
"If music be the food of love, play on!" - Shakespeare
Honestly the best use of the iPad is going to be in the hands of sales associates in Apple stores as a CRM system interface.
If Apple is smart they'll drop the silly idea that this is a consumer device and start developing and marking it for industrial use. Retail sales associates, exposition vendors, industrial control systems such as a remote console for theatre/concert lighting designers, inspectors (building inspectors, plant inspectors), electronic patient records for doctors making rounds, inventory, FedEx delivery people, parking enforcement officers, etc.
Right now all these people are using either paper or incresingly PDAs. The PDAs they use are frequently custom built, very expensive, and awkward. The iPad is better then any of them and what it lacks (ruggedness, reciept printers, etc) could easily be added as a slip-on case. Some of the faster companies are starting to adopt the iTouch/iPhone for these uses, but the iPad would be better and most all the negatives listed for the iPad just don't apply to their needs.
But notice what all these industrial uses have in common? They never put the device down...they have reason to always be using it and always be walking around. Consumers don't ever do this...their usage is in fits and starts (phone, pda, other pocketable device) or if it's longer they'll sit down (laptop, desktop). They don't walk down the road using a major computer device if only because they'll walk right out into traffic.**
**edit: In Japan it's very common for people to do medium-weight computing while standing up on a subway car and there is a large, albeit niché market for devices that can be used like that. The iPad however, won't really fit that niché...not only are these people standing up, but they are packed in like sardines and so their devices must be usable completely vertically with very little personal space. They've gotten very used to having very powerful systems in form factors much more friendly to this particular environment then any tablet. Dynamism has been importing/converting a number of these devices into the US/English market for eons, most any of which is wildly better then the iPad for the not-packed-like-sardines-subway-rider consumer market.
catlike, my wife was inspired by your post and created a caption contest for that image, she writes for phonedog.com and their subsite today's iphone. She challanged her readers to come up with a better caption then yours, let the battle begin.
Quoted from Marcelo This. I can see a lot of people without serious computing needs springing for this instead of a laptop.
Yep. And serious doesn't mean lack of functionality. I wouldn't want to do FPGA compiles or multi-track AV rendering or MPEG encoding on one of these, but it's perfect for word processing or note taking, or light web-browsing.
Apple's IPad Tablet Announcement?
It should be today. I'm really curious. Here is a leaked video of it. First Apple Tablet Review Get Live Updates Here
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There doesn't appear to be anything except the 30 pin connector...everything else requires a fat, ugly dongle, if it's doable at all.
I don't know if this is really the problem. For one thing, Apple allows YouTube and I think they would be totally open to having NetFlix on their device if NetFlix felt like porting to the iPhone/iPad. Already, there are apps in the AppStore to sling video to your phone. So, I don't think video competition is really the issue.
I could see an attempt to either protect games partners or, more likely, to keep the experience good. Keep in mind that most flash apps, like games, require keyboard input. That just won't work on an iPhone. On a iPad, you get more screen real-estate, but there's still that problem of battery life.
Also, be aware that Apple has a blanket policy against any VM's. That's why there's no Java, Silverlight, or gameboy emulators available either. They're concerned about battery life and user-experience.
The user-experience thing seems arguable, but battery life is definitely a problem, at least with Flash in it's current incarnation.
The Graphics Processor still draws power, no? As I understand it, the big problem is that Flash has a big behemoth of a code-base and Adobe is perfectly happy to limp along with "good enough". Adding GPU offload is probably going to be done by way of bolting on yet another feature without changing the core VM code too much. Adobe has not been cranking out the best code lately.
Now, this may change. With HTML 5 and Silverlight nipping at their heels, Adobe may actually get their act together and clean up Flash and make a reasonable implementation. Keep in mind that I think Google has already rolled out an experimental HTML 5 version of YouTube (See http://www.youtube.com/html5).
But, either way, I think everybody wins. Either people switch to HTML 5, and we get the stuff Flash has as part of web standards (like they should be), or Flash sucks less and has a shot of getting on portable hardware without killing battery life.
Eh, so go get a netbook or jailbreak the phone/pad. Seriously. Devices like this are specifically about the vertical integration Apple brings so that you get the best all-around experience. That often means sacrificing some of the bells and whistles, at least in the short term until Apple figures out a way to integrate new features in a way that still feels comfortable. My old WM5 phone had more ports, etc, than my iPhone, but I couldn't wait to ditch that POS, and it turns out that I don't miss that stuff at all because everything else works so great on the iPhone.
For the iPhone, I suspect battery life really was a key thing and that it was enough of a key thing that it was worth ditching Flash support. My guess is that they figured most people used flash to watch YouTube, play games, and the rest was mostly advertising dancing baloney. So you put YouTube support in an app, offer games through the app store, and the dancing baloney goes away in your browser (modulo animated GIFs). Now, on the iPad, they probably could have opened things up a bit more, and maybe they will eventually, but, for whatever reason (maybe time to market?) they're sticking with the iPhone plan on the iPad.
Is this perfect? Heck no. I'm sure the engineers would like to offer more, but they also have to meet design goals...which don't necessarily line up with HP's or the typical PC maker's design goals. And as the hardware gets better and the software (like flash or html5) get better, everything that really matters will eventually get integrated.
I'm not going to be buying one of these, because I'm doing fine with my iPhone + Mac, and I suspect that's the case for a lot of people on this board. But I can defintitely see markets for the iPad. Low-end PC people who really just want a compute appliance, some on-the-go type people (though, I suspect they may find they are better served by v2 of the iPad), kids/teens who would like internet access and games but their parents don't want to buy and maintain a completely open PC, eBook readers who aren't satisfied with the current platforms and maybe want more laptop-like things, educational institutions or students who can't break the bank on a new computer and would like to download textbooks at a cost savings, etc. etc.
I'm content with not being in the market segment for this device for the time being. Maybe rev 2 or 3 will be awesome enough that it's worth considering, but without seeing how this plays out, I think huffing about "Meh, no SD card slot or HDMI" is going to sound a little like "iPod, meh, not as good as my archos" if the iPad manages to get a good chunk of the market.
We'll see.
Doubt it, but mrz proposed a Bluetooth headset.
The only thing keeping it from working on an iPhone is Apple/AT&T not allowing it over 3G. Ideally, that wouldn't apply to the iPad, but you know as well as I do it'll never happen.
Apple's also got goofy restrictions on what Bluetooth devices it supports too. They're the most DRM-hungry player in the market.
Shockingly, I've got to eat my words in short order:
Apple (Apparently) Now Allows VOIP Over 3G on the iPhone/iPad
I agree with the Flash killing battery-life argument for the iPhone but not for this device, which has a larger form factor and a much bigger battery. With the iPhone (or any phone), battery life is a crucial factor.
However, for a device that claims to offer the best ever Web experience, not having Flash really is key omission. Yes, HTML 5 has lots of potential, but right now Flash is everywhere. Outside of YouTube, this device will not access most streaming video on the web, which is a major thing people do on the internet. Also, lots of useful webapps utilize Flash. (BTW, have you tried the Youtube HTML5 video player? It's quite mediocre and still uses a lot of the CPU).
This argument also ignores the great advances in chip design. The Apple A4 processor is a system on chip pairing a very fast ARM CPU (same as on Qualcomm's Snapdragon and Nvidia's TEGRA)to an ARM Graphics chip, which sips power while providing very strong graphics performance.
The iPhone is half phone/half web device. The iPad is a 90% web device. If they are estimating 10 hours of battery life watching video and browsing the web, surely there is plenty of battery power to surviving using Flash. And it's not like people use Flash apps 100% of the time. How hard would it be, I wonder, to put setting on Safari to enable or disable the Flashplayer plugin?
Great point, I did the same with my palm, was happy to combine my cell, palm and ipod into one device, but for me, the ipad, though it's another device, is one that combines computer and non-computer uses together: magazines, books, recipes, text and doc files. I'll use this around the house vs un-docking the laptop from the numerious cables it's teathered to (yeah I know, why do I have a laptop), and would only take the ipad out of the house on personal trips vs lugging a stack of magazines, books and comics with me.
The main irritation for me is no flash. There are numerious websites that use flash for many other things besides video, including navagation. Apple is consistantly mum about why no flash for the iphone, and Adobe has given up trying to get a response from them as well. It's just odd.
oh man, this is friggin' hillarious
Here's hoping the Google Voice app isn't far behind.
We are the keepers of Funny, the Judges, the Whisperers. We are Superior Naysayers And Rebukers of Knavery. We are SNARK. - Boosh!
Yes, and Apple's lame excuse of banning the Google Voice because the dialer and voicemail features replicated core iPhone functions and might confuse users hold absolutely no water when it comes to the iPad.
Except at least that taped together thing can run 4 different apps at once! :-)
From the NY Times article:
David Pogue, who wrote that, is generally an Apple fanboy, fyi.
"If music be the food of love, play on!" - Shakespeare
edit..ah I see that it has Bluetooth. I was wondering if there was any way to input to the iPad besides the device itself and the docking station.
Yeah, the Apple site says it works with the Apple bluetooth keyboard. Though you'd have to prop the iPad up somehow. Maybe the case will be good enough.
I don't like how the keyboard dock only connects in portrait mode.
I read an interesting bit of feedback in Engadget's (I think) review that I hadn't seen elsewhere:
This thing is NOT flat on the back, it's a bit convex. So, if you put it down on a table, and start typing on the on-screen keyboard, it wobbles about. That seems like a startling misstep for the company that's all about User Interface.
http://www.archos.com/products/nb/archos_9/
So much for the iPad being anything remotely close to innovative. Sorry Marcelo.
Except one is from a company that other companies follow and one isn't.
Here's what made the iPhone important - when it came out, every other cellphone company started making similar looking big touchscreen phones. It became the standard. When Apple co-opted app stores from the jailbreakers, it also became the standard for other systems. iPod too (suddenly a bunch of complicated metal MP3 players got sleeker and looked more like iPod bricks).
Similarly, apple's iPad has the potential to spur other companies to follow it. If iPad is successful it could completely change the handheld computing industry just because so many people follow Apple's lead. No one is going to suddenly come out with a million tablets because Archos released one.
I know you like being the anti-Apple contrarian, but no amount of trashing their product is going to change the fact that other companies look to Apple and follow Apple's lead on industrial design, on interface design, on technology trends and lifestyle. That fact alone makes Apple products important regardless of whether they're the best out there in terms of specs.
And hey, if you don't like it, feel free to buy something else. You can crow about it all you want and enjoy your contrarianism.
I think this will be great in Gen 2/3, but I will wait to purchase until then. If I am going to spend that money, I will get my next Gen iPhone this fall.
sure, the iPad may have potential. it may become something and may even sell a whole heap of units. but even if it does, that still doesn't mean it is the best or most capable tablet out there. we can still judge it now, based on what it has or doesn't have. (there is a LOT of basic stuff it doesn't have, in my opinion).
The iPad isn't a Tablet PC, though. That's something you have to take away from here. It's a big MID. The MID market has been a non-starter for the last couple of years. Screens have been small, functionality limited, and certainly no 3G.
The iPad is NOT a replacement for a laptop. It's not a replacement for a phone. It's something in the middle, for people who don't need the horsepower of a full-up PC but need more functionality than they can get on a phone.
Ultimately, there are people for whom the iPad will be useful. You may not be one of them. That doesn't change the fact that the device, and because of the Apple fanbase, marketing engine, and culture will not only be a financial success, but also a market-changer.
lol, oh snap
No he's not, he's a fanboy of gadgets that work and software that makes sense (and that he has personally tested). If they don't, regardless of the manufacturer, he prints it.
I read Pogue's stuff a lot. He's very pro-Mac (sometimes for good reasons, but I personally think some of his opinions are overreaching). It doesn't surprise me in the least that he wants to wait things out with the iPad before taking deserved shots at it.
"If music be the food of love, play on!" - Shakespeare
Honestly the best use of the iPad is going to be in the hands of sales associates in Apple stores as a CRM system interface.
If Apple is smart they'll drop the silly idea that this is a consumer device and start developing and marking it for industrial use. Retail sales associates, exposition vendors, industrial control systems such as a remote console for theatre/concert lighting designers, inspectors (building inspectors, plant inspectors), electronic patient records for doctors making rounds, inventory, FedEx delivery people, parking enforcement officers, etc.
Right now all these people are using either paper or incresingly PDAs. The PDAs they use are frequently custom built, very expensive, and awkward. The iPad is better then any of them and what it lacks (ruggedness, reciept printers, etc) could easily be added as a slip-on case. Some of the faster companies are starting to adopt the iTouch/iPhone for these uses, but the iPad would be better and most all the negatives listed for the iPad just don't apply to their needs.
But notice what all these industrial uses have in common? They never put the device down...they have reason to always be using it and always be walking around. Consumers don't ever do this...their usage is in fits and starts (phone, pda, other pocketable device) or if it's longer they'll sit down (laptop, desktop). They don't walk down the road using a major computer device if only because they'll walk right out into traffic.**
**edit: In Japan it's very common for people to do medium-weight computing while standing up on a subway car and there is a large, albeit niché market for devices that can be used like that. The iPad however, won't really fit that niché...not only are these people standing up, but they are packed in like sardines and so their devices must be usable completely vertically with very little personal space. They've gotten very used to having very powerful systems in form factors much more friendly to this particular environment then any tablet. Dynamism has been importing/converting a number of these devices into the US/English market for eons, most any of which is wildly better then the iPad for the not-packed-like-sardines-subway-rider consumer market.
catlike, my wife was inspired by your post and created a caption contest for that image, she writes for phonedog.com and their subsite today's iphone. She challanged her readers to come up with a better caption then yours, let the battle begin.
Well, I'm not surprized that your surprized, so there.
something something something...darkside
I'm just jealous that the iPhone isn't available on Verizon... ;-)
"If music be the food of love, play on!" - Shakespeare
This. I can see a lot of people without serious computing needs springing for this instead of a laptop.
Yep. And serious doesn't mean lack of functionality. I wouldn't want to do FPGA compiles or multi-track AV rendering or MPEG encoding on one of these, but it's perfect for word processing or note taking, or light web-browsing.
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