Pointing one's toes up isn't ideal, but if they don't have the rest of the movement working right and/or don't understand it (the Suzy-Q is a peepshow...some people don't get that) then pointed toes is probably better then a weak looking sideways walk that is most people's idea of a Suzy-Q.

I really wish I could remember Frankie's exact wording on this, but this is the story:

a few years back I was taking the authentic jazz track at Herrang. We were doing something involving Suzie Q's, and some people were doing it with their toes up. Frankie was sitting in the corner, quietly watching the class, and when he saw this he practically jumped out of his chair, marched to the middle of the room and stopped the class. Then, he said something along the lines of 'what are you guys doing with your toes up in the air? That isn't how it is done!' And he then said something along the lines of back in the day they did it with their feet flat on the ground, and it looks stupid for your toes to be up. Maybe someone else here was in that class with me that remembers better.... I think CrazyLegs aka Eve was also there.

So... toes should stay down cause Frankie says so :). There is an incredible amount of room for self expression, but there are also certain things that make jazz moves what they are, and to leave out critical components (like keeping your toes down in a Suzie Q) makes it not really that movement any more. It's kind of like doing lindy with an up-pulse! It just ain't right.

I remember hearing instructors (such as Laura Jeffers) saying this over 12 years ago, so I assume he'd been saying it since forever.

BTW I have never heard a single person explain to me what makes keeping your toes down a critical component. Other than "Frankie says it looks stupid."

Why would it be? Frankie's words are tremendously important, but they are not gospel. An important opinion is still only an opinion.

I think toes up looks sloppy, uncontrolled and odd. That's enough reason for me. If Frankie agreed, that's a bonus.

I bet you clap on the one.

Yeah, I was at a Frankie workshop in Chicago about 10 years ago where Frankie taught the Suzie Q exactly this way. The "heel foot swivel with toes up" thing is something some dancers who never learned the move properly came up with during the neo-swing/"swing craze" era. That style has absolutely nothing to do with authentic lindy/swing.

FWIW - people back in the 1998-2002 era came up with all KINDS of crazy "variations" on lindy ... including adding a "hop" from one foot to the other to the swingout during 7&8 (because the dance is called "The Lindy HOP" ... get it? Nudge-nudge wink-wink SAY NO MORE!)that looks even more ridiculous than the toe pointed up Suzie Q thing.

Oh dear! I've always done SuzieQ's with the toes of my front foot well off the floor. I guess I've been doing them wrong all these years! Anyway, I'm confused about something. When doing SuzieQ's correctly is the heel of the front foot still the pivot axis, with the toes tracing an arc around the heel? Or is the ball of the front foot the pivot axis with the heel tracing an arc? Or is the pivot axis in the middle of the foot? Or am I so confused that my question makes no sense at all?

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"The Suzie-Q is a heel-and-toe movement. When moving to left side your weight is kept on the heel of the right foot and the toes of the left."

Source.

Yeah, that makes some sense. Doing anything that keeps your toe in the air with your heel on the ground doesn't seem like a good game plan. But then again, when I do jazz steps I'm primarily a "street tapper" who does a lot more heel strikes than folks who favor the "stay on your toes" playlist, so my opinion may not match that of people who stayed with the formal training longer than I did.

Still, it seems to me that attempting to make some noise with your toe while your heel is firmly planted on the ground isn't likely to produce a good result. Doing this would be a kind of "toe drop" - kinda like the kind of foot tapping people do to show impatience. It's hard to make much of a good sound if you only have the weight of the front half of your foot to work with. This is why heel drops are more useful ... you have the weight of your entire leg to work with to control volume.

At least for me, the easiest way to get a good sound out of your toe (if you're not going to do a brush-back where your toe comes down twice) is to strike with the heel forward and follow with a strike with the toe back or do a paradiddle (which begins with a heel strike and ends with a heel drop).

Frankly, I'm not sure what the point is of trying to inject sound into a Susie Q. It's a slidey visual move with a steady repetitive rhythm ... not particularly suited to creative jazz step sound. But if I were to try to get some sound out of it, I'd look for a way to do it during the direction change crossover steps ... the only part of the Suzie Q where you're SUPPOSED to lift one foot off the ground and bring it back to earth. Maybe do it as a leap with a tiny bit of air time while foot A crosses foot B where you land with your entire weight on your toe.

I learned the step in an early tap level as a fairly cutsy move. The hands were also in a flexed position which was never choreographed for older dancers. The sounds only came from the stamp with one foot and the step with the other, so it's possible it's to avoid any extra sounds. I never did this move in later levels so I don't know if its about the sound, the cutsy look or both.

I'll admit to doing the toe up in lindy sometimes because of learning it in tap first. You have all convinced me to stop doing that! Thanks!

I think that as long as people remember the old timers teaching us how to do it right (as in how it was when it was created), things will not spiral out of control into an ugly mess. But there always have been, and always be, people that don't listen to this and dance in a way that make people who are dedicated to the roots of the dance wanna puke.

As long as the music doesn't change that we dance to (and it has, for those who like groove and neo swing type music), I think the dancing theoretically shouldn't change too much. Even when all the old timers are gone, there are still videos around that people can watch and see how it was done.

What the hell are Butterfly Taps?

The problem with the pretzel is that it's not all bad...it actually can be really, really cool...if you aren't a newbie. ;-) This is Doug doing a "Westie Pretzel" variation, which is good in its own right, but check out the end of the video where they do it at quote, "Lindy Hop speed". I wouldn't say it's classic Lindy Hop, but it is the kind of movement which fits with "groovy" music well. Personally I'd love it if wiggle hop venues would teach more of this and less of the useless Charleston, etc they oddly seem to teach (useless for the venue...as Charleston doesn't work to Wade In The Water). Anyway, here's the vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK9JJ814C6g

The problem newbies run into with the pretzel is that it's very easy for them to drop the pulse and lose the rhythm of the music, turning it into an odd flailing mush that neither looks good, feels good, or works with the music. That's not the movement's fault.

Now the "Arm Slide" move on the other hand (or as my girlfriend calls it, the "Arm Rape")...nothing can be done to save that movement...

How about because it does look stupid?

I agree with Poke Alex -- it's really about the fact that you're missing some essential movement if you're doing it with toes up. Teaching dance is hard, because most of us can't tell what's really going by looking at someone else doing it, and words can't really describe it, either. But if you can figure out how to do the movement with your weight on your heel and keeping your toes down -- it practically forces you to get some part of the leg/hip movement that's hard to describe. And doing that kind of movement with toes up takes better balance than most of us have, if it's even possible.

There is some difference between saying "it's wrong to do it this way", and "If you do it this way, it's nearly impossible to do it well."

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Its when you are cross-hand and you turn the follow like you are about to do a free spin but you 'tap' her on the shoulder to stop her.

AKA Windmill, right? It's a little cheesy, but I really don't mind it at all. If the music is right for it, and the lead is just a little adaptable, I'll put a lot of hip into that (sort of like ochos) and turn it into something we usually both think is fun. I love the look on their faces when they watch me doing something that isn't quite what they had in mind, looks better, and they see themselves adapting to it and making it work.