Originally posted Thursday, March 4, 2010 (2 years ago)
Quote We like to think we're on the same team as the musicians. Non-dancing (post-Swing-Era) Jazz often feels like it takes off a lot, but then doesn't go anywhere, and if it lands at all, it's not a solid landing. The endings especially often just fizzle out. Or else, the music just drops dead without any warning -- no feeling of finality.
He nails most everything that's fantastic about real swing dance music and everything that's horribly wrong with "groovy" non-dance jazz crap popular among DJs at 9:20, Lindy Groove, and Frim Fram. This essay should be required reading by every DJ and band playing for swing dancers.
Originally posted Thursday, March 4, 2010 (2 years ago)
The last time I read that was several years ago. I think my reaction is pretty much the same today. There are a few points I agree with, particularly the early part of the essay talking about other genres of music.
I disagree with the tempo range, it's too narrow with a ceiling of 180. A good driving tune at 200 is wicked awesome although I wouldn't want to dance that all night or even 3 tunes in a row.
I also disagree with the last tune of the night. Personally, I'd rather go out on a high energy tune that may or may not be a jam for the dancers.
I'd also nitpick on some of the language like "we like a variety of rhythms and flavours." That could suggest to a band that playing latin or other tunes is desired when it's not.
Many of the points for DJs are also valid. I love the analogy of a medley.
While there are many valid points a band leader reading that would get a bad impression of swing dancers simply from the tone of the writing. Peter is a dancer of many styles and is very knowledgeable and he writes in a dancer's language. A band leader understands a musicians language and some of the vocabulary can have very different meaning. I would not show that to a band leader I'd consider hiring.
It needs work to be an affective piece of rhetorical communication. Re-writing in a positive tone using a musicians vocabulary would go a long way to achieving that.
Originally posted Thursday, March 4, 2010 (2 years ago)
My two cents.
I think the author sees the biggest most spectacular trees but misses seeing the forest. Sure the dance grew up with the hot jazz. Many of the best performances I watch over and over use that music and several of my best dances have been to that music. BUT....
.... neither the music nor the dancing just stopped after the hot jazz era. The music changed and the dancing changed right along with it. And unsurprisingly several excellent performances and several of my best dances have also been to the music that has come later.
I have watched people rock out to the author's maligned American Patrol. I have similarly watched people rock out to sock hop era music and even (some) neo-swing. I'm sure I could find examples from other non-hot jazz music if I were so inclined.
And the dancing done to all this music is still swing dancing and at least in my books still lindy hop. The groove music and dancing Zenin objects to is just as legitimate as the hot jazz.
Now my preferences certainly run in the author's general direction. I will admit that there are certainly times when a band or DJ will play something from a later period and I will make snide remarks to the people standing near me who share my tastes. But while I might cringe when a DJ plays something like Sinatra, there are also people who make a beeline for the floor. I would like to believe that there is room for those people at the dance as well.
In a music discussion on another board, local DJ Jerry Almonte once posted the following.
Quote One of the best and earliest pieces of advice I got about DJ’ing was from Rayned Wiles. At one of the first dances I DJ’d at K2 he pointed to some random dancer who looked obviously bored, and told me that you will ALWAYS see that look on someone at a dance, especially in a room filled with diverse tastes. They key is to make sure that that look doesn’t stay on the same person for long stretches at a time, and move it around to different people by playing different types of music. Of course you have to know who is there and what they like. There's no point in playing a really charlestony or bluesy song if there aren't at least a few people there to appreciate it.
In general that is a sentiment I can get behind.
At the same time though, if there is enough demand, I don't object to the specialization of a dj or venue to one sort of music or another. (In general I expect bands to specialize as they find their own sound) But variety is the spice of life and I am glad to be in a location where there are nights I can find music specialized to my tastes in addition to nights where I can find "other".
The only other thing I'd mention is the author never brings up the issue of song length. That is my personal pet peeve and something I wish was explained better to bands playing for dancers. Songs of length between 2.5 to 4 minutes please. 5 or 6 at the outside. I remember a night where the first 45 minute set a band played contained 3 songs... and the follow up sets were similar in nature. (Djs are usually more in tune on this issue although I've been in a room where someone played what seemed like a 15 minute track that they believed we need to hear in its entirety)
Originally posted Friday, March 5, 2010 (2 years ago)
Sure there have been great performance to the overplayed standards, neo-swing or not quite but sort of swing-ish music. Does that mean we want to social dance to a night of overplayed standards, neo-swing and not-quite but sort of swing-ish music? This reminds me of a stage many newer DJs go through where they feel they have to play primarily different stuff that no one else plays to find their own style. Unfortunately there's a reason much of that stuff isn't played by other DJs.
I'd leave after the first set if the musicians were good. I'd finish my drink quickly and leave before the set was over if the musicians weren't very good. If it was a DJ, I'd grump and grumble about the music till I leave.
Ideally, I want some hard swinging stuff not outliers. I want a variety of tempos. I love styles a variety of songbooks if the band can pull them off well but I'm content with a limited variety done well.
Indeed the song duration was missed and is an important point.
A less easy to explain point that was also missed is the band, especially the band leader should pay attention to the dancers. If the dancers aren't digging the faster tempos, play a bit slower or choose some different tunes. Listen to the dance floor like you'd listen to your band-mates. Some bands come with a set-list and are bound and determined to stay on the rails even if it means playing to an empty dance floor, that's not something I want to see as an organizer.
Lastly, I like to tell the bands that if they're having fun, we'll be having fun. Some musicians just don't care about the dancers. Some get too hung up in reading their sheet music they never play with the full energy that drives us on the dance floor. Those are not the musicians that should be playing Lindy Hop gigs.
I haven't been to 9:20 or LindyGroove in a couple of years but I would say that "groovy non-dance jazz crap" doesn't describe the music played at Frim Fram on a regular basis.
I would also say that the message linked to in the original post is incredibly condescending and while you (or I, even) may agree with the obvious preference for swing era music, it really does not speak for everyone that goes out swing dancing.
It's probably because I don't generally play it, but I have to say that as a DJ I get more requests for R&R (Elvis, Bill Haley) and Neo-Swing than I do for anything else.
Personally, I'd be more careful and/or considerate of tastes outside of my own when speaking for the collective "we."
Originally posted Friday, March 5, 2010 (2 years ago)
Someone asked me to take a look at this and see what I thought the other day, and I was almost ashamed to be a lindy hopper because of this. The writing just sounds rude most of the time, and leaves pretty much no freedom to the band.
One thing that no one has commented is the horrible grammar in the thing.
Quote Like the music of Armstrong, Calloway, Waller. Crisp and solid, like Basie, Hampton and Lunceford.
These are not sentences...
I also really hate the tempo cap and the "here is a good pattern of tempos to play. He asks why play two fast songs in a row, but some of the greatest dances I have been to have had 3 or 4 blazing songs in a row. The energy that was created by this was amazing and raw, and everyone loved it.
Someone should revise this and make it applicable to us today.
I also hate the word sensuous to describe lindy hop...
Originally posted Friday, March 5, 2010 (2 years ago)
I thought there were some valid points to the document; coming from a place where Swing was the predominantly played music at dances and now living in a city where the predominantly DJd music is Neoswing/RNR/Fusion swing, I can sympathize with the author in that a band or a DJ should play swing music at a swing dance.
However, like other people already commented, I also find the tempo recommendations too restrictive. I most certainly enjoy dancing to music in the 200+ range at times, even a few songs in a row. Also, I wouldn't go so far as to completely exclude the odd novelty song in a set, for the reason of making more people happy with the evening. The language of the document is also somewhat...provocative to me, since it refers to "us" lindy hopers. I think broad generalizations like that are quite dangerous.
The writing definitely needs to be re-done and improved but the points can still provide a good base for discussion with a band or DJ.
Related to that, there is a dangerous line between describing what "we" like as black and white as Swifty points out. I just happen to be co-ordinating music with one of the bands playing X-PLEX next weekend so I've been thinking a lot about the subject.
I know there are a lot of visiting dancers who despise In the Mood, American Patrol and Pennsylvania 6-5000. I had a bottle thrown at me (in jest) once when I DJ'd In the Mood. On the other hand, there will be a lot of newbies that are not long-time, hard-core Lindy Hoppers that love that stuff but don't dig Stompin' at the Savoy or King Porter Stomp or One O'Clock Jump the way we might.
Matching the music to the audience is an art. DJ's like Swifty recognize it and it's whey they're successful. Good bands also want the audience to enjoy the music and will often work hard to achieve the organizer is asking. Communicating that effectively is the job of the organizer. To lay out music requirements in such simplistic terms may make the music selection worse, not better.
Quote I would also say that the message linked to in the original post is incredibly condescending and while you (or I, even) may agree with the obvious preference for swing era music, it really does not speak for everyone that goes out swing dancing.
Quote Personally, I'd be more careful and/or considerate of tastes outside of my own when speaking for the collective "we."
Quote I haven't been to 9:20 or LindyGroove in a couple of years but I would say that "groovy non-dance jazz crap" doesn't describe the music played at Frim Fram on a regular basis.
Nor does it describe the music played at 920 Special on a regular basis. I really wish people would allow for the idea that as time passes, things could possibly change.
Beyond that, I continue to agree with Swifty about the first post. Not surprisingly, of course. :)
Originally posted Friday, March 5, 2010 (2 years ago)
(glaces at the 9:20 calender) Yep, pretty much the same old same old.
Things could change, sure. They just haven't. And why would they? Some of the most successful venues in the country play some of the patently worst music of all.
Good music is almost antithetical to success. It was amazed when I finally realized that, but it shouldn't have been a supprise: Living in Hollywood it's hard to not notice the lines of people going around the block to get into clubs blasting out the worst noise they can possibly find. In sharp contrast, when the Blue Vipers of Brooklyn came out to LA last year they played to exactly two people, myself and a friend I brought...no joke.
Quote There is worse swing dance music then neo-swing. Blue Mance - Junior Mance, Midnight Blues - Jimmy Witherspoon. Somehow though, this groovy trash gets a free pass.
Next time I DJ, I'm going to make sure I play these and dedicate them to Zenin!
Quoted from Zenin (glaces at the 9:20 calender) Yep, pretty much the same old same old.
Okay, I took the bait and just looked.
Not for nothing, but they had Hep Jen last night and have Allen Kerr booked next week. If I recall correctly, if anything, Jen skews early-swing more than anything else, but either way I'd never consider what she plays "groovy."
And I know Allen's new to the Bay Area as of last month and he plays some of the hardest swinging classic stuff I've ever heard.
Originally posted Friday, March 5, 2010 (2 years ago)
The 920 is also hosting Casey MacGill and the Blue 4 Trio down from Seattle in a few weeks. And oh man, all they play is groovy modern crap! They're just awful!
Originally posted Friday, March 5, 2010 (2 years ago)
Not to mention the fact that although some of the same DJs still play, that doesn't automatically mean they play the same music they did 5-10 years ago. Again, with time can come change.
I think another important thing to consider is context. The situation really dictates what music a crowd enjoys. I prefer to play a variety, because I like to dance to a variety of music and tempos, but I definitely choose to play different songs and tempos at different parts of the night depending on how the crowd responds.
You're right. Jesse Miner has changed over the years; He's gotten even worse then he even was before.
I'm actually rather impressed you're booking Casey MacGill. Considering the horrid bands you guys booked in 08 and 09 for the SF Lindy Exchange, it's a refreshing change. 09 wasn't all that long ago however...I'm not sure where this 5-10 years ago idea comes from. 9:20 playing groovy jazz isn't ancient history, it's at least as recent as last year.
Honestly, I don't understand why you're all so defensive? 9:20 is a groovy jazz venue, it's well known for it, it celebrates it. I'm rather surprised you're not defending groovy music, instead trying to deny that you play it. Rather odd, really. Embrace your groove, you know you love it.
Originally posted Friday, March 5, 2010 (2 years ago)
This is a weird thread. The original page looks like it was posted in 1994, Zenin's lamentations about groove music sound like he's living in 2002, and Swifty and Mouth are being restrained like it's 2025 and their spirits have been crushed by some yet-to-happen tragedy that's taken all the piss and vinegar out of them.
Originally posted Friday, March 5, 2010 (2 years ago)
Edited on Friday, March 5, 2010 7:08 pm (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Zenin" Considering the horrid bands you guys booked in 08 and 09 for the SF Lindy Exchange, it's a refreshing change.
Mouth was not on the committee for either of those events.
Zenin you are entitled to think groovy jazz sucks, just like I am entitled to think that some scratchy classic trad jazz makes me want to leave the room. This is why there are djs and events that serve the needs of people's different dancing preferences.
Originally posted Friday, March 5, 2010 (2 years ago)
Let's face it - we're all music snobs.
It's a fact I will happily admit and something I precede all my musical criticism with.
I disagree with the idea of trying to introduce general rules about music, there are always exceptions. Going by year for example misses out a whole bunch of great swinging stuff that was recorded later - or recordings by contemporary bands. Going by tempo misses out on some great tunes (and every venue is different - if I played a 180bpm tune at a particular venue here in Sydney it's likely I'd have only 3 couples on the floor doing bal).
There's only two rules - play what you like, and play what the crowd likes. If there's no common ground the band or DJ shouldn't be playing that venue.
I don't think you can give bands an essay like that and expect them to play well for Lindy Hoppers. It's up to an event organiser to do their homework and find a good band and perhaps just give them a little guidance on the sort of music they should play. Just like DJing for dancers is a skill that it learned, so is playing for dancers. And that's what you find. It's the bands that have dancers in them or play for them on a regular basis that are the most popular contemporary swing bands.
Originally posted Friday, March 5, 2010 (2 years ago)
Edited on Friday, March 5, 2010 9:58 pm (2 years ago)
The essay is confusing to me as a DJ (who does dance) because its pedantically, almost patronizingly, explicit but also contradictory.
The author says they like hard driving, hot and sensuous Jazz from the 20's and 30's and posts a sample play list of 29 songs. However, only about 1/3 of the songs fall in the desired time period and many of those are slower tempo vocal tracks or mellow nostalgia (or is this article just old and the music suggestions now seem rather dated?)
The essay makes me want to invite him to a dance in the southeast or DC where Michael Gamble or a Jam Cellar DJ is packing the floor with music from that period and ask, "Is this what you meant to say?"
Confusing, factual inconsistencies stated in a condescending, overly-managed tone don't make me want to phone and ask to DJ there. Definitely a case where less would have been more.
Quote You're right. Jesse Miner has changed over the years; He's gotten even worse then he even was before.
I'm actually rather impressed you're booking Casey MacGill. Considering the horrid bands you guys booked in 08 and 09 for the SF Lindy Exchange, it's a refreshing change. 09 wasn't all that long ago however...I'm not sure where this 5-10 years ago idea comes from. 9:20 playing groovy jazz isn't ancient history, it's at least as recent as last year.
Honestly, I don't understand why you're all so defensive? 9:20 is a groovy jazz venue, it's well known for it, it celebrates it. I'm rather surprised you're not defending groovy music, instead trying to deny that you play it. Rather odd, really. Embrace your groove, you know you love it.
Once again Zenin shows himself as someone who doesn't know jack [bleep!] about anything.
First, the 920 Special has had nothing to do with the SF Lindy Exchange for the past two years. The dance happens on Thursday, so we often end up being the default welcome dance. And we certainly support the efforts of our community, including the exchange, and welcome their dancers on the Thursday before it takes place. However, the decisions about music had nothing to do with us. Nothing.
Second, the cd you linked to is from 8 years ago! Therefore, proving my point, not yours.
And third, your personal preferences of Jesse Miner's djing is of little importance to this discussion. He is only one of MANY djs we hire, proving our diversity and not a proclivity toward any one kind of music.
And as someone who has lived here and participated in running the 920 Special for the last 4 years, I am far more qualified to speak about the musical trends than you are during those 4 years.
The truth is it has undergone a steady change - with the times and musical preferences of our community. Not one forced upon us by a certain group of musical snobs (in ANY camp), but one that happened organically based on our community, the interests of our dancers, students, and organizers, and it has been a delightful one to be a part of. We do not dismiss our history or denounce it. Similarly, we do not denounce modern or what you might call "groovy" music. But the fact is there is a lot more musical diversity at the 920 than in previous years. Including DJs like Hep Jen and Allen, as Swifty mentioned, and bands like Casey MacGill. And they are as much a part of our current identity as our past was.
But I know Zenin doesn't really care about facts. He's more interested in making grand and sweeping generalized statements and using them to dump on people, truth be damned!
Originally posted Friday, March 5, 2010 (2 years ago)
As to instructions for bands, overall I think discussing music dancers prefer with bands is a great way to get a great new dance band in your community. But you have to speak their language or it is useless.
I've seen it done successfully many times, both in NY and recently here in SF. But you have to at least start from a place of treating the musicians with respect - something this essay doesn't really do.
Maybe the statement says "we're all music snobs." And this you have to be careful about.
Being in the know and being "elite" is a good way not to encourage others to get interested in growing the community.
True, it will never be like it was when the scene was hot during the mid-90s but during that time, people discovered that it was a great thing to do.
Then people in the "know" citicized this and criticized that, put people down, called people "old school," and the scene became catagorized.
Pearl Bailey once said, "People today have too many labels. We should all live together as one."
Yes, there are rules and standards that we all expect to learn and know. But we must do more reaching out to welcome others and educate in such a way that it will benefit all and most importantly, let all enjoy.
I guess what I'm trying to articulate in my statement is that knowledge stated as fact and knowledge stated as opinion are different, especially when talking about subjective matters like jazz music. The first alienates people and makes you sound elite, the second encourages diversity, discussion and people to get involved.
When I say I'm a music snob it means that, and there are reasons for that but that at the end of the day it comes down to taste. Which is true for everyone, we will dance to what we enjoy dancing to. If some people don't like that kind of music then tough.
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Instructions for Dance Bands...
http://dancing.org/music.guidelines.html
So someone sent me this, and I won't state my opinions yet, but I thought it was interesting to read...
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He nails most everything that's fantastic about real swing dance music and everything that's horribly wrong with "groovy" non-dance jazz crap popular among DJs at 9:20, Lindy Groove, and Frim Fram. This essay should be required reading by every DJ and band playing for swing dancers.
Just curious - when was the last time you danced at Frim Fram?
The last time I read that was several years ago. I think my reaction is pretty much the same today. There are a few points I agree with, particularly the early part of the essay talking about other genres of music.
I disagree with the tempo range, it's too narrow with a ceiling of 180. A good driving tune at 200 is wicked awesome although I wouldn't want to dance that all night or even 3 tunes in a row.
I also disagree with the last tune of the night. Personally, I'd rather go out on a high energy tune that may or may not be a jam for the dancers.
I'd also nitpick on some of the language like "we like a variety of rhythms and flavours." That could suggest to a band that playing latin or other tunes is desired when it's not.
Many of the points for DJs are also valid. I love the analogy of a medley.
While there are many valid points a band leader reading that would get a bad impression of swing dancers simply from the tone of the writing. Peter is a dancer of many styles and is very knowledgeable and he writes in a dancer's language. A band leader understands a musicians language and some of the vocabulary can have very different meaning. I would not show that to a band leader I'd consider hiring.
It needs work to be an affective piece of rhetorical communication. Re-writing in a positive tone using a musicians vocabulary would go a long way to achieving that.
My two cents.
I think the author sees the biggest most spectacular trees but misses seeing the forest. Sure the dance grew up with the hot jazz. Many of the best performances I watch over and over use that music and several of my best dances have been to that music. BUT....
.... neither the music nor the dancing just stopped after the hot jazz era. The music changed and the dancing changed right along with it. And unsurprisingly several excellent performances and several of my best dances have also been to the music that has come later.
I have watched people rock out to the author's maligned American Patrol. I have similarly watched people rock out to sock hop era music and even (some) neo-swing. I'm sure I could find examples from other non-hot jazz music if I were so inclined.
And the dancing done to all this music is still swing dancing and at least in my books still lindy hop. The groove music and dancing Zenin objects to is just as legitimate as the hot jazz.
Now my preferences certainly run in the author's general direction. I will admit that there are certainly times when a band or DJ will play something from a later period and I will make snide remarks to the people standing near me who share my tastes. But while I might cringe when a DJ plays something like Sinatra, there are also people who make a beeline for the floor. I would like to believe that there is room for those people at the dance as well.
In a music discussion on another board, local DJ Jerry Almonte once posted the following.
In general that is a sentiment I can get behind.
At the same time though, if there is enough demand, I don't object to the specialization of a dj or venue to one sort of music or another. (In general I expect bands to specialize as they find their own sound) But variety is the spice of life and I am glad to be in a location where there are nights I can find music specialized to my tastes in addition to nights where I can find "other".
The only other thing I'd mention is the author never brings up the issue of song length. That is my personal pet peeve and something I wish was explained better to bands playing for dancers. Songs of length between 2.5 to 4 minutes please. 5 or 6 at the outside. I remember a night where the first 45 minute set a band played contained 3 songs... and the follow up sets were similar in nature. (Djs are usually more in tune on this issue although I've been in a room where someone played what seemed like a 15 minute track that they believed we need to hear in its entirety)
Sure there have been great performance to the overplayed standards, neo-swing or not quite but sort of swing-ish music. Does that mean we want to social dance to a night of overplayed standards, neo-swing and not-quite but sort of swing-ish music? This reminds me of a stage many newer DJs go through where they feel they have to play primarily different stuff that no one else plays to find their own style. Unfortunately there's a reason much of that stuff isn't played by other DJs.
I'd leave after the first set if the musicians were good. I'd finish my drink quickly and leave before the set was over if the musicians weren't very good. If it was a DJ, I'd grump and grumble about the music till I leave.
Ideally, I want some hard swinging stuff not outliers. I want a variety of tempos. I love styles a variety of songbooks if the band can pull them off well but I'm content with a limited variety done well.
Indeed the song duration was missed and is an important point.
A less easy to explain point that was also missed is the band, especially the band leader should pay attention to the dancers. If the dancers aren't digging the faster tempos, play a bit slower or choose some different tunes. Listen to the dance floor like you'd listen to your band-mates. Some bands come with a set-list and are bound and determined to stay on the rails even if it means playing to an empty dance floor, that's not something I want to see as an organizer.
Lastly, I like to tell the bands that if they're having fun, we'll be having fun. Some musicians just don't care about the dancers. Some get too hung up in reading their sheet music they never play with the full energy that drives us on the dance floor. Those are not the musicians that should be playing Lindy Hop gigs.
I'll admit, not for a while. Is it no longer the 9:20/LindyGroove of the East Coast?
I haven't been to 9:20 or LindyGroove in a couple of years but I would say that "groovy non-dance jazz crap" doesn't describe the music played at Frim Fram on a regular basis.
I would also say that the message linked to in the original post is incredibly condescending and while you (or I, even) may agree with the obvious preference for swing era music, it really does not speak for everyone that goes out swing dancing.
It's probably because I don't generally play it, but I have to say that as a DJ I get more requests for R&R (Elvis, Bill Haley) and Neo-Swing than I do for anything else.
Personally, I'd be more careful and/or considerate of tastes outside of my own when speaking for the collective "we."
Someone asked me to take a look at this and see what I thought the other day, and I was almost ashamed to be a lindy hopper because of this. The writing just sounds rude most of the time, and leaves pretty much no freedom to the band. One thing that no one has commented is the horrible grammar in the thing.
These are not sentences...
I also really hate the tempo cap and the "here is a good pattern of tempos to play. He asks why play two fast songs in a row, but some of the greatest dances I have been to have had 3 or 4 blazing songs in a row. The energy that was created by this was amazing and raw, and everyone loved it.
Someone should revise this and make it applicable to us today.
I also hate the word sensuous to describe lindy hop...
So basically what you're saying is your first post was just you trolling.
I thought there were some valid points to the document; coming from a place where Swing was the predominantly played music at dances and now living in a city where the predominantly DJd music is Neoswing/RNR/Fusion swing, I can sympathize with the author in that a band or a DJ should play swing music at a swing dance.
However, like other people already commented, I also find the tempo recommendations too restrictive. I most certainly enjoy dancing to music in the 200+ range at times, even a few songs in a row. Also, I wouldn't go so far as to completely exclude the odd novelty song in a set, for the reason of making more people happy with the evening. The language of the document is also somewhat...provocative to me, since it refers to "us" lindy hopers. I think broad generalizations like that are quite dangerous.
The writing definitely needs to be re-done and improved but the points can still provide a good base for discussion with a band or DJ.
Related to that, there is a dangerous line between describing what "we" like as black and white as Swifty points out. I just happen to be co-ordinating music with one of the bands playing X-PLEX next weekend so I've been thinking a lot about the subject.
I know there are a lot of visiting dancers who despise In the Mood, American Patrol and Pennsylvania 6-5000. I had a bottle thrown at me (in jest) once when I DJ'd In the Mood. On the other hand, there will be a lot of newbies that are not long-time, hard-core Lindy Hoppers that love that stuff but don't dig Stompin' at the Savoy or King Porter Stomp or One O'Clock Jump the way we might.
Matching the music to the audience is an art. DJ's like Swifty recognize it and it's whey they're successful. Good bands also want the audience to enjoy the music and will often work hard to achieve the organizer is asking. Communicating that effectively is the job of the organizer. To lay out music requirements in such simplistic terms may make the music selection worse, not better.
FTW
Nor does it describe the music played at 920 Special on a regular basis. I really wish people would allow for the idea that as time passes, things could possibly change.
Beyond that, I continue to agree with Swifty about the first post. Not surprisingly, of course. :)
(glaces at the 9:20 calender) Yep, pretty much the same old same old.
Things could change, sure. They just haven't. And why would they? Some of the most successful venues in the country play some of the patently worst music of all.
Good music is almost antithetical to success. It was amazed when I finally realized that, but it shouldn't have been a supprise: Living in Hollywood it's hard to not notice the lines of people going around the block to get into clubs blasting out the worst noise they can possibly find. In sharp contrast, when the Blue Vipers of Brooklyn came out to LA last year they played to exactly two people, myself and a friend I brought...no joke.
There is worse swing dance music then neo-swing. Blue Mance - Junior Mance, Midnight Blues - Jimmy Witherspoon. Somehow though, this groovy trash gets a free pass.
Next time I DJ, I'm going to make sure I play these and dedicate them to Zenin!
::lol::
CollegiateShag.com
Okay, I took the bait and just looked.
Not for nothing, but they had Hep Jen last night and have Allen Kerr booked next week. If I recall correctly, if anything, Jen skews early-swing more than anything else, but either way I'd never consider what she plays "groovy."
And I know Allen's new to the Bay Area as of last month and he plays some of the hardest swinging classic stuff I've ever heard.
...and you spelled "calendar" wrong.
The 920 is also hosting Casey MacGill and the Blue 4 Trio down from Seattle in a few weeks. And oh man, all they play is groovy modern crap! They're just awful!
Not to mention the fact that although some of the same DJs still play, that doesn't automatically mean they play the same music they did 5-10 years ago. Again, with time can come change.
I think another important thing to consider is context. The situation really dictates what music a crowd enjoys. I prefer to play a variety, because I like to dance to a variety of music and tempos, but I definitely choose to play different songs and tempos at different parts of the night depending on how the crowd responds.
CollegiateShag.com
You're right. Jesse Miner has changed over the years; He's gotten even worse then he even was before.
I'm actually rather impressed you're booking Casey MacGill. Considering the horrid bands you guys booked in 08 and 09 for the SF Lindy Exchange, it's a refreshing change. 09 wasn't all that long ago however...I'm not sure where this 5-10 years ago idea comes from. 9:20 playing groovy jazz isn't ancient history, it's at least as recent as last year.
Honestly, I don't understand why you're all so defensive? 9:20 is a groovy jazz venue, it's well known for it, it celebrates it. I'm rather surprised you're not defending groovy music, instead trying to deny that you play it. Rather odd, really. Embrace your groove, you know you love it.
This is a weird thread. The original page looks like it was posted in 1994, Zenin's lamentations about groove music sound like he's living in 2002, and Swifty and Mouth are being restrained like it's 2025 and their spirits have been crushed by some yet-to-happen tragedy that's taken all the piss and vinegar out of them.
scratches head
Mouth was not on the committee for either of those events.
Zenin you are entitled to think groovy jazz sucks, just like I am entitled to think that some scratchy classic trad jazz makes me want to leave the room. This is why there are djs and events that serve the needs of people's different dancing preferences.
sigh why am i feeding the troll
That's all I got until I read the link.
Let's face it - we're all music snobs.
It's a fact I will happily admit and something I precede all my musical criticism with.
I disagree with the idea of trying to introduce general rules about music, there are always exceptions. Going by year for example misses out a whole bunch of great swinging stuff that was recorded later - or recordings by contemporary bands. Going by tempo misses out on some great tunes (and every venue is different - if I played a 180bpm tune at a particular venue here in Sydney it's likely I'd have only 3 couples on the floor doing bal).
There's only two rules - play what you like, and play what the crowd likes. If there's no common ground the band or DJ shouldn't be playing that venue.
I don't think you can give bands an essay like that and expect them to play well for Lindy Hoppers. It's up to an event organiser to do their homework and find a good band and perhaps just give them a little guidance on the sort of music they should play. Just like DJing for dancers is a skill that it learned, so is playing for dancers. And that's what you find. It's the bands that have dancers in them or play for them on a regular basis that are the most popular contemporary swing bands.
The essay is confusing to me as a DJ (who does dance) because its pedantically, almost patronizingly, explicit but also contradictory.
The author says they like hard driving, hot and sensuous Jazz from the 20's and 30's and posts a sample play list of 29 songs. However, only about 1/3 of the songs fall in the desired time period and many of those are slower tempo vocal tracks or mellow nostalgia (or is this article just old and the music suggestions now seem rather dated?)
The essay makes me want to invite him to a dance in the southeast or DC where Michael Gamble or a Jam Cellar DJ is packing the floor with music from that period and ask, "Is this what you meant to say?"
Confusing, factual inconsistencies stated in a condescending, overly-managed tone don't make me want to phone and ask to DJ there. Definitely a case where less would have been more.
Zenin isn't a troll. He's just very opinionated. If I didn't know him in person, I'd think he was a real douche, but he's actually quite non-douchey.
CollegiateShag.com
Once again Zenin shows himself as someone who doesn't know jack [bleep!] about anything.
First, the 920 Special has had nothing to do with the SF Lindy Exchange for the past two years. The dance happens on Thursday, so we often end up being the default welcome dance. And we certainly support the efforts of our community, including the exchange, and welcome their dancers on the Thursday before it takes place. However, the decisions about music had nothing to do with us. Nothing.
Second, the cd you linked to is from 8 years ago! Therefore, proving my point, not yours.
And third, your personal preferences of Jesse Miner's djing is of little importance to this discussion. He is only one of MANY djs we hire, proving our diversity and not a proclivity toward any one kind of music.
And as someone who has lived here and participated in running the 920 Special for the last 4 years, I am far more qualified to speak about the musical trends than you are during those 4 years.
The truth is it has undergone a steady change - with the times and musical preferences of our community. Not one forced upon us by a certain group of musical snobs (in ANY camp), but one that happened organically based on our community, the interests of our dancers, students, and organizers, and it has been a delightful one to be a part of. We do not dismiss our history or denounce it. Similarly, we do not denounce modern or what you might call "groovy" music. But the fact is there is a lot more musical diversity at the 920 than in previous years. Including DJs like Hep Jen and Allen, as Swifty mentioned, and bands like Casey MacGill. And they are as much a part of our current identity as our past was.
But I know Zenin doesn't really care about facts. He's more interested in making grand and sweeping generalized statements and using them to dump on people, truth be damned!
No news here.
I know he isn't really a troll, but it just feels like that sometime.
As to instructions for bands, overall I think discussing music dancers prefer with bands is a great way to get a great new dance band in your community. But you have to speak their language or it is useless.
I've seen it done successfully many times, both in NY and recently here in SF. But you have to at least start from a place of treating the musicians with respect - something this essay doesn't really do.
Maybe the statement says "we're all music snobs." And this you have to be careful about.
Being in the know and being "elite" is a good way not to encourage others to get interested in growing the community.
True, it will never be like it was when the scene was hot during the mid-90s but during that time, people discovered that it was a great thing to do.
Then people in the "know" citicized this and criticized that, put people down, called people "old school," and the scene became catagorized.
Pearl Bailey once said, "People today have too many labels. We should all live together as one."
Yes, there are rules and standards that we all expect to learn and know. But we must do more reaching out to welcome others and educate in such a way that it will benefit all and most importantly, let all enjoy.
I guess what I'm trying to articulate in my statement is that knowledge stated as fact and knowledge stated as opinion are different, especially when talking about subjective matters like jazz music. The first alienates people and makes you sound elite, the second encourages diversity, discussion and people to get involved.
When I say I'm a music snob it means that, and there are reasons for that but that at the end of the day it comes down to taste. Which is true for everyone, we will dance to what we enjoy dancing to. If some people don't like that kind of music then tough.
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