The essay was written in a very different time. The corpus of recordings on which we draw our evidence as expanded a lot since then. We didn't have the fantastic swingdjs.com to discuss and share our discoveries. We were still buying music from the local bricks and mortar stores with limited selection.
That essay has been on the net for at least as long as I've been DJ'ing, I think I started DJ'ing in 2001. Back then I don't think dancers really had much expertise in the music but knew enough that Neo-swing, Jump Blues and some of the sweet pop music of the 40's is less than ideal for Lindy Hop. That's the music that the masses including a lot of "dance bands" and "dance DJs" considered swing. It still is today.
"Swing DJs" were rare and in Toronto (the geographic context of the essay). If you hire a DJ for an event, you get a standard mobile DJ used to playing weddings and office parties. If you ask for swing, it'd be Neo-swing, 50's Rock and Roll, maybe some Glenn Miller Standards and probably lots of god awful Jive Bunny remix crap. As a swing DJ, I'd take offense to the comments but knowing that that is the audience for the general purpose DJ puts in a different light. It's still condescending but I can see the author's point.
I notice that one of the genres that the author of this article condemned was R&B. Yet the list of suggested tunes and artists mentioned the names Buddy Johnson, Louis Jordan and Lucky Millinder - all kings of late 1940's-early 1950's rhythm & blues. It's worth mentioning that during the post-WWII years up to at least a couple years past 1955 there was considerable lindy dancing to R&B tunes in this style - many examples of which can be found in clips on YouTube.
Not mentioned one way or the other in this article are the following artists featured in the film "Rhythm & Blues Revue" (basically a feature length edition of "Showtime at the Apollo" released to theaters in the mid 1950's):
Ruth Brown
Lionel Hampton
I would assume that since the things these people performed were sometimes billed as "Rhythm & Blues", according to the standards of universal taste allegedly agreed upon by ALL swing dancers as the article maintains, none of their work belongs in a swing DJ set or set list used by live bands at a Lindy dance.
And for all the hardcore calls for "purity" in swing DJ sets, the article also included this:
Quote At the end of a set, especially the last, we like a waltz, or something else that's special - perhaps a polka, or a Ragtime tune. We love swinging waltzes. Waltz tempo: 42-52 mpm. (125-160 bpm) (Jitterbug Waltz is a good one. Over the Waves is another.)
This stuff is swing and R&B ain't? Gimme a break!
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
While I'm going to stay out of the main issues on this one, there is one comment I just can't let go by again with saying something. I see the same false dichotomy set up all the time by so many people:
"Groove" is the not opposite of "Trad." Neither one of the them is "Swing," (and frankly I hate dancing to either one of them.)
That pre-swing music is sometimes "scratchy" does not excuse dancing to groovy post-swing music, and vise versa. Why not just play some of the vast amount of real swing that was decently recorded?
I see the same false dichotomy set up between crappy, poppy swing and earlier jazz - as though a mediocre dixieland band is somehow more "raw" or "jazz" that the Andrews Sisters. There is plenty of good swing music from say, 1937-1945, so why don't people actually play that, instead of blaming it on the damn Andrews Sisters.
Dance to what you want (as though anyone needs me to suggest that), but people please stop making this same flawed argument!
Originally posted Wednesday, March 10, 2010 (2 years ago)
While I'm going to stay out of the main issues on this one, there is one comment I just can't let go by again with saying something. I see the same false dichotomy set up all the time by so many people:
"Groove" is the not opposite of "Trad." Neither one of the them is "Swing," (and frankly I hate dancing to either one of them.)
That pre-swing music is sometimes "scratchy" does not excuse dancing to groovy post-swing music, and vise versa. Why not just play some of the vast amount of real swing that was decently recorded?
I see the same false dichotomy set up between crappy, poppy swing and earlier jazz - as though a mediocre dixieland band is somehow more "raw" or "jazz" that the Andrews Sisters. They're both square! There is plenty of good swing music from say, 1937-1945, so why don't people actually play that, instead of blaming it on the damn Andrews Sisters.
Dance to what you want (as though anyone needs me to suggest that), but people please stop making this same flawed argument!
Quote Zenin isn't a troll. He's just very opinionated. If I didn't know him in person, I'd think he was a real douche, but he's actually quite non-douchey.
Maybe he's a "sleeper douche" and could explode vinegar in public at any moment.
Originally posted Wednesday, March 10, 2010 (2 years ago)
I don't believe a waltz or a polka should ever be played at a swing dance. I think I would consider hearing one of those as the last song of the night to be a slap in the face.
Follows who don't want to get wet shouldn't dance with me.
Originally posted Wednesday, March 10, 2010 (2 years ago)
Every time someone links to that post I laugh. Especially this: "We want you to play, so that we can play together" Don't flatter yourself. A musician you're not. (Regardless what Frankie said about the dancers and band feeding off each other) What you are is a paying customer.
Just like me at the strip club.
"Style is originality; fashion is fascism.The two are eternally and unalterably opposed." - Lester Bangs
Quote There is worse swing dance music then neo-swing. Blue Mance - Junior Mance, Midnight Blues - Jimmy Witherspoon. Somehow though, this groovy trash gets a free pass.
Seriously... groove is worse than neo-swing? It's trash?!?
Granted, this may not be the best fit for swing dance (you know, compared to swing-era music), but it's not trash. Not sure about the Jimmy Witherspoon, but most of the groove you referenced is good music. It may be harder to find the beat and structure than swing-era music, but it does actually have rhythms that swing (and the neo-swing I've heard just doesn't.) I'd love to dance to "Blue Mance", or many of those others with someone who could deal with it, and I'd enjoy using what I've learned about swing dancing to do that. Those songs have a nice feel. And even if I don't want to dance to some of them, I'd be happy to listen, because they're good music.
I imagine examples of good neo-swing exist (I haven't listened to it for many years, as I have jazz, but I assume all genres have something of quality), but my usual reaction when I hear neo-swing is... not only do I NOT want to dance to it ('cause you know -- it doesn't swing), but I usually want to put my hands over my ears and have a stiff drink (hey that could work if I use a straw.) Typically, it's just bad music.
Originally posted Wednesday, March 10, 2010 (2 years ago)
You can't Lindy Hop to Blue Mance, you just can't, no one can, it's simply not possible. You can Wiggle Hop to it sure, but that's an entirely different dance.
The entire "For Dancer's Only" disk is pure irony, a disk of examples of what not to ever play for dancers. It's a shining example of everything that has gone wrong with Swing music. Since it would be difficult to find a worse mix of music for dancers if you tried, I have to believe the irony was intentional, an inside joke of sorts. Ha! So funny! :-P
Originally posted Wednesday, March 10, 2010 (2 years ago)
I agree with ToonTownDave that the article should be taken in its context, which is dated, but that he attempted to articulate the needs of dancers to musicians in his own imperfect way. Rather than an excoriation, I'd would be more interested in how we would articulate our needs to bands.
Besides, I liked his methodology of defining tempo by gait, i.e., whether walking, jogging, or running was the appropriate gait for a tempo.
Swing is Jazz music.
Swing Dancing is Jazz Dancing.
Swing music is pure joy. --pr
Instructions for Dance Bands...
http://dancing.org/music.guidelines.html So someone sent me this, and I won't state my opinions yet, but I thought it was interesting to read...
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Hmm, let's do some math here: http://www.socalswing.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2847
Reuben Brown - www.JiveJunction.com - Southern California
The essay was written in a very different time. The corpus of recordings on which we draw our evidence as expanded a lot since then. We didn't have the fantastic swingdjs.com to discuss and share our discoveries. We were still buying music from the local bricks and mortar stores with limited selection.
That essay has been on the net for at least as long as I've been DJ'ing, I think I started DJ'ing in 2001. Back then I don't think dancers really had much expertise in the music but knew enough that Neo-swing, Jump Blues and some of the sweet pop music of the 40's is less than ideal for Lindy Hop. That's the music that the masses including a lot of "dance bands" and "dance DJs" considered swing. It still is today.
"Swing DJs" were rare and in Toronto (the geographic context of the essay). If you hire a DJ for an event, you get a standard mobile DJ used to playing weddings and office parties. If you ask for swing, it'd be Neo-swing, 50's Rock and Roll, maybe some Glenn Miller Standards and probably lots of god awful Jive Bunny remix crap. As a swing DJ, I'd take offense to the comments but knowing that that is the audience for the general purpose DJ puts in a different light. It's still condescending but I can see the author's point.
Thanks, Dave. That makes sense.
I notice that one of the genres that the author of this article condemned was R&B. Yet the list of suggested tunes and artists mentioned the names Buddy Johnson, Louis Jordan and Lucky Millinder - all kings of late 1940's-early 1950's rhythm & blues. It's worth mentioning that during the post-WWII years up to at least a couple years past 1955 there was considerable lindy dancing to R&B tunes in this style - many examples of which can be found in clips on YouTube.
Not mentioned one way or the other in this article are the following artists featured in the film "Rhythm & Blues Revue" (basically a feature length edition of "Showtime at the Apollo" released to theaters in the mid 1950's):
I would assume that since the things these people performed were sometimes billed as "Rhythm & Blues", according to the standards of universal taste allegedly agreed upon by ALL swing dancers as the article maintains, none of their work belongs in a swing DJ set or set list used by live bands at a Lindy dance.
And for all the hardcore calls for "purity" in swing DJ sets, the article also included this:
This stuff is swing and R&B ain't? Gimme a break!
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
While I'm going to stay out of the main issues on this one, there is one comment I just can't let go by again with saying something. I see the same false dichotomy set up all the time by so many people:
"Groove" is the not opposite of "Trad." Neither one of the them is "Swing," (and frankly I hate dancing to either one of them.)
That pre-swing music is sometimes "scratchy" does not excuse dancing to groovy post-swing music, and vise versa. Why not just play some of the vast amount of real swing that was decently recorded?
I see the same false dichotomy set up between crappy, poppy swing and earlier jazz - as though a mediocre dixieland band is somehow more "raw" or "jazz" that the Andrews Sisters. There is plenty of good swing music from say, 1937-1945, so why don't people actually play that, instead of blaming it on the damn Andrews Sisters.
Dance to what you want (as though anyone needs me to suggest that), but people please stop making this same flawed argument!
While I'm going to stay out of the main issues on this one, there is one comment I just can't let go by again with saying something. I see the same false dichotomy set up all the time by so many people:
"Groove" is the not opposite of "Trad." Neither one of the them is "Swing," (and frankly I hate dancing to either one of them.)
That pre-swing music is sometimes "scratchy" does not excuse dancing to groovy post-swing music, and vise versa. Why not just play some of the vast amount of real swing that was decently recorded?
I see the same false dichotomy set up between crappy, poppy swing and earlier jazz - as though a mediocre dixieland band is somehow more "raw" or "jazz" that the Andrews Sisters. They're both square! There is plenty of good swing music from say, 1937-1945, so why don't people actually play that, instead of blaming it on the damn Andrews Sisters.
Dance to what you want (as though anyone needs me to suggest that), but people please stop making this same flawed argument!
Sorry for the double post, but I don't see anywhere I can delete one. Annoying.
Maybe he's a "sleeper douche" and could explode vinegar in public at any moment.
I don't believe a waltz or a polka should ever be played at a swing dance. I think I would consider hearing one of those as the last song of the night to be a slap in the face.
Follows who don't want to get wet shouldn't dance with me.
Every time someone links to that post I laugh. Especially this: "We want you to play, so that we can play together" Don't flatter yourself. A musician you're not. (Regardless what Frankie said about the dancers and band feeding off each other) What you are is a paying customer.
Just like me at the strip club.
"Style is originality; fashion is fascism.The two are eternally and unalterably opposed." - Lester Bangs
Seriously... groove is worse than neo-swing? It's trash?!?
Granted, this may not be the best fit for swing dance (you know, compared to swing-era music), but it's not trash. Not sure about the Jimmy Witherspoon, but most of the groove you referenced is good music. It may be harder to find the beat and structure than swing-era music, but it does actually have rhythms that swing (and the neo-swing I've heard just doesn't.) I'd love to dance to "Blue Mance", or many of those others with someone who could deal with it, and I'd enjoy using what I've learned about swing dancing to do that. Those songs have a nice feel. And even if I don't want to dance to some of them, I'd be happy to listen, because they're good music.
I imagine examples of good neo-swing exist (I haven't listened to it for many years, as I have jazz, but I assume all genres have something of quality), but my usual reaction when I hear neo-swing is... not only do I NOT want to dance to it ('cause you know -- it doesn't swing), but I usually want to put my hands over my ears and have a stiff drink (hey that could work if I use a straw.) Typically, it's just bad music.
-- Rachel
You can't Lindy Hop to Blue Mance, you just can't, no one can, it's simply not possible. You can Wiggle Hop to it sure, but that's an entirely different dance.
The entire "For Dancer's Only" disk is pure irony, a disk of examples of what not to ever play for dancers. It's a shining example of everything that has gone wrong with Swing music. Since it would be difficult to find a worse mix of music for dancers if you tried, I have to believe the irony was intentional, an inside joke of sorts. Ha! So funny! :-P
http://www.cafepress.com/cp/customize/product.aspx?clear=true&number=%20394594003
I've also made a version for women!
http://www.cafepress.com/cp/customize/product.aspx?clear=true&number=%20394595510
I agree with ToonTownDave that the article should be taken in its context, which is dated, but that he attempted to articulate the needs of dancers to musicians in his own imperfect way. Rather than an excoriation, I'd would be more interested in how we would articulate our needs to bands.
Besides, I liked his methodology of defining tempo by gait, i.e., whether walking, jogging, or running was the appropriate gait for a tempo.
Swing is Jazz music. Swing Dancing is Jazz Dancing. Swing music is pure joy. --pr
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