I normally don't dance w/ the local rockstars of my scene, but I asked a few of them to dance lately and I noticed something new. It felt like they didn't have enough back pressure against my right hand/arm for a normal closed position. They felt almost too light. IIRC, the general rule is that the follow's back should seek the lead's hand, but this felt very very light... almost like I didn't have much to work with to do normal moves (basic jockeying during the intro, tuck turn, 1 and 2 of starting a swingout from closed).
Then, I think I must have either looked confused or they could tell it felt weird to me and then they gave more weight after like 3 eight counts. Then everything felt awesome after that.
It reminded me of when one of my follow friends took a private and she said the teacher said that many follows give too much weight when actually it isn't asked/led. Apparently that was what she was doing. I remember she felt fine to me before and after her private lesson. Both of our skill levels is about a high 3 or low 4 on a 5 track event (my instructor said so :P) if that makes any difference.
Anyway, so what's the deal? Usually this only happens with super good follows I've danced with, but not all of them. Am I not asking for enough weight? If not, how do I do it? Or what could I change or what's going on? Do almost all follows up to high int level give too much weight then?
Originally posted Sunday, March 21, 2010 (2 years ago)
A highly-skilled follower shouldn't feel light or heavy, because she will give you the amount of frame/compression/counterbalance/etc that you're asking for. So you shouldn't be experiencing this consistently.
It could be a number of things. My guesses are:
1) You're not being completely clear about what you want from your follower's connection. So many things could be causing this it's impossible to guess based on a short written description. I'm of the opinion that it's okay to ask for really quick, easy feedback like this on the social floor, as long as you only do so infrequently with people you don't know. (ask people you know better as often as you want; they'll be comfortable telling you if it gets annoying) If you could say your first two paragraphs in one or two sentences, and ask them if they were compensating for you not quite leading something as clearly as you'd hoped, I think that's perfectly reasonable to ask at the end of a dance. But be aware that some people aren't comfortable giving feedback at all and might just say "no you're fine" if this is the case. Since it sounds like you're taking private lessons, it couldn't hurt to talk about this at an upcoming session.
2) Are you at all nervous about dancing with these "rockstars," or were you nervous for the first few seconds of the dance? Whenever I'm less confident about dancing with someone... or less confident about a dance for whatever reason... it has a negative impact on how clearly I lead. It's also possible that the rest of your dance feeling better coincided with you gaining confidence over the course of the song. (perhaps there was even something your follower did to help you gain that initial boost, like initially compensating until it wasn't necessary)
3) A lot of times when people dance with somebody for the first time (especially follows, who are more easily injured by a bad leader than a leader is by a bad follower), there's a brief feeling-out period where she's not going to give you 100% commitment with her weight. This has happened to me almost every time I've danced with someone good for the very first time, and I always thought this was kinda why we as lindyhoppers do all that jockeying/etc the first time we dance with someone -- so that by the time we swing out, there's already some comfort built. So you may have been experiencing that in the first few 8 counts.
Originally posted Monday, March 22, 2010 (2 years ago)
Edited on Monday, March 22, 2010 12:35 am (2 years ago)
Quoted from Signet 3) A lot of times when people dance with somebody for the first time (especially follows, who are more easily injured by a bad leader than a leader is by a bad follower), there's a brief feeling-out period where she's not going to give you 100% commitment with her weight. This has happened to me almost every time I've danced with someone good for the very first time, and I always thought this was kinda why we as lindyhoppers do all that jockeying/etc the first time we dance with someone -- so that by the time we swing out, there's already some comfort built. So you may have been experiencing that in the first few 8 counts.
This.
And when it's an instructor or other "rockstar", it goes 10 fold at least.
Above a given level follows as a general rule dance with extreme caution if they haven't danced with you before, often so much so that it can be very difficult to dance with them at all. They simply won't dance with you anywhere near the way they will with leads they know and it hasn't anything to do with your dance skill (or lack of). Whatever jockeying/feeling out you might do with a "normal" follow, expect you'll need to go far, far slower with a very advanced follow. It may take a few songs or more before she'll really dance with you. Best to prove you can and will dance simple well and smooth with nothing more then tuck turns and swing outs for 3.5 mins, then to try and impress her or worse "keep her from getting bored".
It's nothing personal and when you think about it it's only a natural response. They have a much better understanding of how vulnerable they really are, how quickly things can go bad. And things are much more likely to go bad for them, given that some crazed newbie who just "learned" from YouTube an awesome Pretzel with Apache ending in a Neck Dip move and thinks to themselves, "If anyone here can follow this SHE can!!". If she's never danced with you she has no idea yet if you are That Guy or not.
Originally posted Thursday, April 8, 2010 (2 years ago)
Maybe requesting a private lesson with one of those follows would be useful. Explain that you want to understand why the good follows feel unusually light, and what you can to do to either take advantage of it or get something different.
Follows who don't want to get wet shouldn't dance with me.
Originally posted Thursday, April 8, 2010 (2 years ago)
Edited on Thursday, April 8, 2010 3:58 pm (2 years ago)
I went through a period when I considered myself an intermediate dancer that I also felt many of the advanced dancers did not give as much tension as I would have liked. I am now grateful that they didn't as it taught me to cut down on all that white noise and just lead the essentials. As to why it might happen the answers above are excellent. I will only add that at the time I was holding all of that tension everywhere in my body which contributed to my notion of the level of tension I wanted from a follow. From a follow's point of view, all of the tension did not translate into a clear lead and she had to do her best to translate by responding to the good parts of the lead in her own relaxed way.
Originally posted Thursday, April 8, 2010 (2 years ago)
Edited on Thursday, April 8, 2010 3:57 pm (2 years ago)
bingo!
tense leads=noisy leads. It is often (or some might argue, always) a change in the tension that creates a lead. So, if you have a lot of tension everywhere it translates as not doing anything to the follow, which means you will have to force her to move instead of lead her.
You also might not be asking, in the way you lead and move your body, for as much pressure as you would like. A good follow should be able to adapt to how much weight she should give, assuming it is clearly lead that she needs to give more/less weight.
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
Originally posted Friday, April 9, 2010 (2 years ago)
FYI many in the scene refer to leads and follows as a noun. As kind of slang in the swing community. If you don't like this practice feel free to create a separate thread to get people's take on it.
connection question
I normally don't dance w/ the local rockstars of my scene, but I asked a few of them to dance lately and I noticed something new. It felt like they didn't have enough back pressure against my right hand/arm for a normal closed position. They felt almost too light. IIRC, the general rule is that the follow's back should seek the lead's hand, but this felt very very light... almost like I didn't have much to work with to do normal moves (basic jockeying during the intro, tuck turn, 1 and 2 of starting a swingout from closed).
Then, I think I must have either looked confused or they could tell it felt weird to me and then they gave more weight after like 3 eight counts. Then everything felt awesome after that.
It reminded me of when one of my follow friends took a private and she said the teacher said that many follows give too much weight when actually it isn't asked/led. Apparently that was what she was doing. I remember she felt fine to me before and after her private lesson. Both of our skill levels is about a high 3 or low 4 on a 5 track event (my instructor said so :P) if that makes any difference.
Anyway, so what's the deal? Usually this only happens with super good follows I've danced with, but not all of them. Am I not asking for enough weight? If not, how do I do it? Or what could I change or what's going on? Do almost all follows up to high int level give too much weight then?
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A highly-skilled follower shouldn't feel light or heavy, because she will give you the amount of frame/compression/counterbalance/etc that you're asking for. So you shouldn't be experiencing this consistently.
It could be a number of things. My guesses are:
1) You're not being completely clear about what you want from your follower's connection. So many things could be causing this it's impossible to guess based on a short written description. I'm of the opinion that it's okay to ask for really quick, easy feedback like this on the social floor, as long as you only do so infrequently with people you don't know. (ask people you know better as often as you want; they'll be comfortable telling you if it gets annoying) If you could say your first two paragraphs in one or two sentences, and ask them if they were compensating for you not quite leading something as clearly as you'd hoped, I think that's perfectly reasonable to ask at the end of a dance. But be aware that some people aren't comfortable giving feedback at all and might just say "no you're fine" if this is the case. Since it sounds like you're taking private lessons, it couldn't hurt to talk about this at an upcoming session.
2) Are you at all nervous about dancing with these "rockstars," or were you nervous for the first few seconds of the dance? Whenever I'm less confident about dancing with someone... or less confident about a dance for whatever reason... it has a negative impact on how clearly I lead. It's also possible that the rest of your dance feeling better coincided with you gaining confidence over the course of the song. (perhaps there was even something your follower did to help you gain that initial boost, like initially compensating until it wasn't necessary)
3) A lot of times when people dance with somebody for the first time (especially follows, who are more easily injured by a bad leader than a leader is by a bad follower), there's a brief feeling-out period where she's not going to give you 100% commitment with her weight. This has happened to me almost every time I've danced with someone good for the very first time, and I always thought this was kinda why we as lindyhoppers do all that jockeying/etc the first time we dance with someone -- so that by the time we swing out, there's already some comfort built. So you may have been experiencing that in the first few 8 counts.
- James
This.
And when it's an instructor or other "rockstar", it goes 10 fold at least.
Above a given level follows as a general rule dance with extreme caution if they haven't danced with you before, often so much so that it can be very difficult to dance with them at all. They simply won't dance with you anywhere near the way they will with leads they know and it hasn't anything to do with your dance skill (or lack of). Whatever jockeying/feeling out you might do with a "normal" follow, expect you'll need to go far, far slower with a very advanced follow. It may take a few songs or more before she'll really dance with you. Best to prove you can and will dance simple well and smooth with nothing more then tuck turns and swing outs for 3.5 mins, then to try and impress her or worse "keep her from getting bored".
It's nothing personal and when you think about it it's only a natural response. They have a much better understanding of how vulnerable they really are, how quickly things can go bad. And things are much more likely to go bad for them, given that some crazed newbie who just "learned" from YouTube an awesome Pretzel with Apache ending in a Neck Dip move and thinks to themselves, "If anyone here can follow this SHE can!!". If she's never danced with you she has no idea yet if you are That Guy or not.
Maybe requesting a private lesson with one of those follows would be useful. Explain that you want to understand why the good follows feel unusually light, and what you can to do to either take advantage of it or get something different.
Follows who don't want to get wet shouldn't dance with me.
I went through a period when I considered myself an intermediate dancer that I also felt many of the advanced dancers did not give as much tension as I would have liked. I am now grateful that they didn't as it taught me to cut down on all that white noise and just lead the essentials. As to why it might happen the answers above are excellent. I will only add that at the time I was holding all of that tension everywhere in my body which contributed to my notion of the level of tension I wanted from a follow. From a follow's point of view, all of the tension did not translate into a clear lead and she had to do her best to translate by responding to the good parts of the lead in her own relaxed way.
bingo!
tense leads=noisy leads. It is often (or some might argue, always) a change in the tension that creates a lead. So, if you have a lot of tension everywhere it translates as not doing anything to the follow, which means you will have to force her to move instead of lead her.
You also might not be asking, in the way you lead and move your body, for as much pressure as you would like. A good follow should be able to adapt to how much weight she should give, assuming it is clearly lead that she needs to give more/less weight.
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
FYI...
Lead/follow = verb. Leader/follower = noun.
"Chaw, chi-chaw, chi-chaw." - Lindsay Bluth
FYI many in the scene refer to leads and follows as a noun. As kind of slang in the swing community. If you don't like this practice feel free to create a separate thread to get people's take on it.
yup.
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
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