When dancing, the most difficult thing to realize, is to interpret accents into the music, and/or specific lyrics ... Not easy because you have to match specific counts of the music with specific counts of specific figures of the dance.
For that purpose, and depending the style of the dance, dancers built sets of rules and tips. But all of them remain on the ability of the dancers to anticipate accents of the music.
As a naturally-lazy-leader in west coast swing, rock, be-bop, the first strategy I developped to get this ability was based on my natural feeling of the music ... hoo my good ! ... very funny but very random too ...
Now, I need to break through that, and reach the next level : being able to classify in the firsts sets of 8 the song's structure as a swing, a blues or something else not being the two first ... If correctly done, I expect breaks and accents to be much more predictable.
Question is :
Does anyone have tips and tricks to recognized swing and blues structures during the first sets of 8 (well, at least, before the end of the first stanza of a song) ? (For example, tips and tricks based on typical AABACC, ABAC, ..., patterns ?)
Originally posted Monday, September 6, 2010 (2 years ago)
Edited on Monday, September 6, 2010 4:02 pm (2 years ago)
Most jazz music is a lot like poetry. If there are lyrics involved, in part it IS poetry. Think of each 8-count pattern as a "stanza" that is part of a "verse" consisting of several of "stanzas". The last "stanza" of the verse acts kind of like the period at the end of a sentence. Listen for one musical idea ending and another beginning in some tunes you are familiar with and you will start to get the idea.
The standard "swing" pattern consists of 8 bars (four 8-count "stanzas"). "It Don't Mean a Thing If You Ain't Got That Swing" is an example. The "blues" pattern repeats after 12 bars (six 8-count "stanzas"). "Walk Right In - Walk Right Out" (aka "The Walkin' Blues") is an example.
This is not nearly as complicated as it sounds when put into words. Musically it's quite simple. Sing or hum any song you like and you'll notice that there are places at regular intervals where one "musical idea" ends and is either repeated or followed by another "musical idea". Notice that in some songs the music you hear in the first verse is repeated note-for-note in the second ... sometimes with the exact same lyrics, sometimes not. But notice also that this repetition can't go on forever - variations and entirely new "musical ideas" start to appear as you go from verse to verse. But the number of beats (and 8-count stanzas) in each "verse" nearly always remains constant until the end of the song.
The first thing you need to do (something that's often taught first in lindy musicality workshops) is to make sure you know how to "find the 'one'" - that is, the first count of each 8-count "stanza".
This can be done with an exercise where you raise your hand or point up when you hear the "one" in each 8-count "stanza". The "one" in "The Walkin' Blues", for example, happens on the word "walk" at the beginning of each line in the lyrics of the first verse.
Once you know how to "find the 'one'", the rest is easy. If a new verse in the lyrics begins after you "find the 'one' " four times, its structure is "8-bar basic swing". If a new verse doesn't begin until you "find the 'one' " six times, its structure is "12-bar blues".
Now some things I should mention that complicate this ... just a little.
--Some songs actually begin on count 8, just to mix things up a little. So you can't assume the first word in any given song always matches "the 'one'". "It Don't Mean a Thing" (an "8-bar basic swing" tune)is an example of this: The "one" DOESN'T happen on the word "It", but instead on "Don't"! (The "one" in the second line DOES begin on the first word,"ain't", however.) You may have to wait until the start of the second verse to get in synch with some tunes.
--Some numbers that are actually composed using the "12-bar blues" structure don't sound like blues at all. And a few numbers that are actually composed using the "8-bar standard swing" structure sound an awful lot like blues. Don't let the style and "feel" of a tune make you jump to assumptions about it's structure. "Standard Swing Pattern" and "Blues Pattern" are technical music theory terms that don't necessarily have anything to do with the style/mood/feel of a tune - only it's phrasing.
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
Originally posted Monday, September 6, 2010 (2 years ago)
Quoted from Racetrack The "blues" pattern repeats after 12 bars (six 8-count "stanzas"). "Walk Right In - Walk Right Out" (aka "The Walkin' Blues") is an example.
...yah, not so much. Walk Right In is a horrid example of 12 bar blues.
A) Only the chorus is in 12 bars, and even then it doesn't really follow a clear 12 bar blues form. That's probably because:
B) The verse is in 10 bars (five 8-counts)...!! Which then uses the first 8 of the next chorus to resolve the tension of the phrase. Because it's both releasing tension of the verse and building tension for the chorus it can effectively overlap the phrasing and drop an 8 count altogether. It's clever and awesome, but very unusual making it a bad example for general concepts.
Quoted from rolling count meter Question is :
Does anyone have tips and tricks to recognized swing and blues structures during the first sets of 8 (well, at least, before the end of the first stanza of a song) ? (For example, tips and tricks based on typical AABACC, ABAC, ..., patterns ?)
For the common cases (eg, Walk Right In above is a very uncommon case) there are a few things you can listen for. Pretty much all music is the art of creating tension and resolving it again, blues and swing being no exception. The first 8 count of any phrase is going to build tension, and the 2nd 8 count is going to release it. This is your first big clue into what the phrasing is:
If the release feels like an answer (call/response), you're probably dealing with a blues form, probably 12 bar blues. You can think of 12 bar blues like:
1st 8 count: Ask a question (call)
2nd 8 count: Answer the question (response)
3rd 8 count: Ask the question, again (call, bigger)
4th 8 count: Answer the question, again (response, bigger)
5th 8 count: Ask the question a 3rd time, just in different words (call, screaming)
6th 8 count: Answer the question for good (response, final)
If the release feels like it's finishing the sentence the first 8 count started, you're probably dealing with an 8 bar swing form. The feeling won't be one of a call and response, more like:
1st 8 count: Start a sentence...
2nd 8 count: ...finish the sentence.
3rd 8 count: Start another sentence...
4th 8 count: ...finish the sentence, and the thought (phrase).
If you have a good ear you can also get more technical and listen for the underlying chord progressions, which are just the nuts and bolts of how that feeling of a build/release of tension is created.
All of this is in the very general, most common form. There are countless exceptions which come up with their own form that while similar, won't match up especially if you're counting on it for timing movements. Walk Right In is a great example of that, In The Mood is another (it uses both 8 and 12 bar forms, and the 12 bar is more "swing" feel then blues).
I think we are approaching the "blues" pattern with different agendas here. At the end of your post you have a very good description of the classic call and response pattern used by traditional blues. But I was going after something else that is more useful for swing music which has a lot of tunes that follow the 12-bar pattern without always conforming to the lyrical call and response structure of traditional blues.
As I mentioned at the end of my post,
Quote Some numbers that are actually composed using the "12-bar blues" structure don't sound like blues at all. And a few numbers that are actually composed using the "8-bar standard swing" structure sound an awful lot like blues. Don't let the style and "feel" of a tune make you jump to assumptions about it's structure. "Standard Swing Pattern" and "Blues Pattern" are technical music theory terms that don't necessarily have anything to do with the style/mood/feel of a tune - only it's phrasing.
Actually, "Walk Right In" isn't far from the classical "call and response" format (but I'll get to that later because that's not why I chose it as an example). The reason I chose it is because it's very easy to follow the 12-count pattern because:
1) Each of the first seven lines is identical to each other, and that includes the lyrics.
2) The first word used in each of the first seven lines of the lyrics ("walk") corresponds to the first musical count of the stanza, making it easy to follow the pattern.
This rigid pattern is only broken in the eighth line ("That's what this song's all about") which is sung in only 7 counts with the beginning of the next line of the lyrics starting on count 8(as often happens with blues and boogie lyrics). In any case, this last line is an obvious close to the first "musical idea".
As to the 10 bar structure that follows - this is simply a clever variation of the classic 12 bar pattern put into this song as part of a series of "blue" jokes. This song is an example of what some people call a "bait and switch" song. For other examples of this type of novelty number see:
In Lavay Smith's version of this tune, Line 1 of the first of these verses is a standard "call":
Quote "I" (count 8 of previous line) "have a man, he likes to huckle ..."
Line 2 consists of only one word (actually half word), "... buck", which happens on count one. The music continues for the next seven counts.
Line 3 and 4 are a repetition of lines 1 and 2.
Line 5 - the response - "When he (on count 8 of line 4) calls me in the morning all he wants to do is ..." theoretically should repeat this pattern of one full line, followed by an 8 count stanza consisting of only one syllable or word, like what happened in lines 1-2 and 3-4.
But the word line 6 would contain is the "F-word" which rhymes with "buck". So the last eight counts are omitted from the pattern and replaced with the "Walk right in - walk right out" reprise in its place. The same thing is done throughout the rest of the song with omitted two-bar lines that would contain words rhyming with "Chuck", "dumb", and "bucket".
If you put the missing "dirty word" lines back in, the 10 bar sequences would turn into standard 12 bar sequences.
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
Originally posted Tuesday, September 7, 2010 (2 years ago)
Listen to lots of swing and blues music and play along with it. Just tap your feet or pat out a rhythm to go with it or hum or scat. Try and vary the the intensity and complexity of your rhythm or music with whatever is going on in the recording.
Stop trying to be so technical and just listen and respond. Think of your dancing as if your were another player in the band with only a head chart or no chart at all.
Originally posted Wednesday, September 8, 2010 (2 years ago)
Thank you all for your relevant posts.
Quoted from Toon Town Dave ... Stop trying to be so technical and just listen and respond ...
But I'm used to for years now.
The purpose and the sense of this post is to go beyond that point, by developping much more "theorical" and "technical" understanding of swing/blues structures.
But I'm totally in line with the idea that swing dancers are part of the orchestra. As a guitar player too, I dance "using my follower" as if I were playing my guitar, in harmony with the band, in the spirit of a jam session.
Don't be mistaken with the terms of "using my follower..." : You can't imagine how much I love, respect,
even adore my female-followers - as my guitar too :) -
Having a jam session with an orchestra and my "woman-in-arms" is an inexhaustible source of pleasure, to feel both free and together too ...
This link, just to get the picture of what so many dancers are looking for (and for the fun too):http://www.swingdanse.fr/video-de-la-semaine/
Have a special look to the 12th video.
No choreography here, neither a formal couple : Only free interpretation of music, lyrics, very funny (poetry), in a "so-easy" way !
For sure, this "natural" and "so-easy" look involves a deep undestanding of the musical structure and by the way, suggest a hard technical work ...
From the technical arguments developped to classify songs within swing or blues structures box,
what I do understand is that we can have different levels of interpretation/expression : A musical one, another one with lyrics, and finally an ultimate one being "poetic" ... Sorry to be so "formal" in an art which nature is not ...
Regarding "Walk right in" song, from the pure musical point of you, it is true that verse is in 5 sets-of-8. But from the "poetic" point of you, the "baith and switch" musical game is also very clear.
From the dance-leader point of you, this example is really the worst situation if you're only listening to the music: You expect a 6th set-of-8, but you're suddenly facing the chorus ! Ouuch !**
But if you're listening to lyrics and guess the "baith and switch" game, you might be able to anticipate the shortcut of the 6th set-of-8 by the chorus ...
If I dare, as a dance-leader, I would classify this song in the third category : The one for non-pure-swing structure, and non-pure-blues-structure. The most hazardous for dancers.
That's why your advices, Racetrack, on poetry are so relevant for me, in this example, especially for this category.
By listning (and re-re-re ...listning) this song, I'm not able to find any pure musical clue to guess in advance the short-cut of the verse by the chorus. (Am I deaf ?)(Have you some other examples of such (swing) songs ?)
I really do like your explanations Zenin, about music being the art of creating tensions and resolving them. Now, making the difference between question/answer set-of-8 type rather than start/end type is not so easy, is it ? ... Could you explain this a little bit more ?
Also could you developped a little bit more some of your tips and tricks regarding the underlying chords progressions ?
Again, thank you all for your advices which really help !
** Of course, dancers have some technical tips and tricks, to face such surprise, but in general with mitigate results on the followers and on the public too ...
The top would have been a funny interpretation of this suprise, by leading "a walk right in, walk right out" look-like dance-sequence, making the follower look like nicely "surprised", with large smiles, ... But again, this is easier when anticipated by the leader ... So imagined before the end of the 5th set-of-8 ...
Originally posted Wednesday, September 8, 2010 (2 years ago)
Edited on Wednesday, September 8, 2010 12:05 pm (2 years ago)
Are you primarily a west coast swing dancer? I've noticed west coast swing dancers tend to have this affinity for being very technical about musicality. Personally, it's always given me a lot of trouble. I trained in music and music theory from a young age, and still... when I try to think about swing or blues music from a technical perspective, it gives me a headache.
I truly believe that until you can feel the music in your gut, you will not achieve what you're aiming for. I know some people find it easier to approach musicality from a technical perspective, but I worry sometimes that that approach takes people further away from their goal. The more you think, the less you rely on instinct. Swing and blues music are heavily instinctual. There are certain patterns and conventions that make them somewhat predictable, but the musicians are also constantly colouring outside the lines and creating new shapes within them.
So how do you develop that instinct? Practice and familiarity with the music, but also with your range of options on how to respond and interact with that music. Listening to music at home and moving to it in a variety of ways, experimenting to see what works in various situations and how you can adapt it to fit others (or fit the same situation in a different way). Do this enough and you won't have to think about what's coming next because you'll just know. Neither will you have to think about how you're going to dance to it. Even if something unexpected comes up in the music, you should be able to react to it instinctively.
Also note when you're watching WCS videos that 99% of the music played at WCS events is very familiar. Every WCS event I've been to... they play the same songs over and over and over and over again. So people know exactly what's coming in the song because they've danced to it a million times before. And most of the pros have been dancing since they were children, so they're very comfortable with their range of options too.
It just takes lots of practice, total comfort with the fundamentals of the dance, and then experimentation outside the box.
Originally posted Wednesday, September 8, 2010 (2 years ago)
Edited on Wednesday, September 8, 2010 6:38 pm (2 years ago)
Excellent points, Bryn.
There is a great quote in a New Yorker article from Ben Polcer of the Loose Marbles:
Quote “I’ve played in a lot of rock bands,” he said. “I like rock and roll. We all like rock and roll. But jazz is special. To play it well, you really have to listen to each other.”
I really appreciate live music for the spontaneity, the fact that I can hear something different in the same tune every time I hear it. It keeps the dance fresh for me.
Ideally, I think the dancing should fit not only the phrasing but the melodies, harmonies and everything else going on. Skye and Frida's Twenty Four Robbers routine is a hallmark example. It's incredibly musical beyond the standard structure of music. The phrasing in the dance is implicit because the music follows a conventional musical structure.
Take the Freddie Green tune Corner Pocket recorded by Count Basie. Frankie often used that tune to illustrate phrasing of a standard 32 bar tune. That's fine and you can dance in a way that will hit all the phrasing spot on. It's one of my favorite tunes but I've heard some versions so often that I know every little nonce and my dancing to it is almost predictable. If you listen to one version compared to another, the solos can have a totally different feel and inspire totally different movements that keeps it fresh. Simply following the solos will give you the phrasing and 32 bar structure without specifically looking for it.
Simply listening and responding to the music will also give you the tools to work with unconventional phrasing. What if a song has an unusual 1 bar (4 beat) bridge or it's a recording that skips or has an inconsistent structure?
Now, it may be a bit different in the WCS world where it's more common to dance to the music in your head rather than what's playing as Skippy Blair explains.
Originally posted Wednesday, September 8, 2010 (2 years ago)
Quoted from rolling count meter This link, just to get the picture of what so many dancers are looking for (and for the fun too):http://www.swingdanse.fr/video-de-la-semaine/
Have a special look to the 12th video.
No choreography here, neither a formal couple : Only free interpretation of music, lyrics, very funny (poetry), in a "so-easy" way !
For sure, this "natural" and "so-easy" look involves a deep undestanding of the musical structure and by the way, suggest a hard technical work ...
I'll echo what Bryn said; While I'm sure these dancers most likely have a very good grasp of the musical structures in the song, they have little need to leverage that understanding as the track is clearly very familiar to both of them.
On a completely side topic, fantastic examples like this abound from the West Coast Swing scene. After watching clips like this I can't help but realize how much "Blues" dancing is to WCS as "The Swing" is to Lindy Hop. 'Just sayin' :-)
Quote Now, making the difference between question/answer set-of-8 type rather than start/end type is not so easy, is it ? ... Could you explain this a little bit more ?
Also could you developped a little bit more some of your tips and tricks regarding the underlying chords progressions ?
Honestly it's really difficult in a web forum format. When I get into these topics it's normally while car pooling somewhere and I can flip through my iPod for examples while making abundant use of pause and rewind. My ear is better at hearing chord progressions then my brain is at doing the actual math.
Your questions are linked however. Call/response is tension/release. Begin/End is also tension/release. It's just different types of tension and different releases, which speaks to the chord progression. The underlying chord progression is typically the largest factor affecting the ebb and flow of the song within a given phrase, everything else really follows its lead. When the song feels like it goes "up" in one 8 count, then "down" in the next, it's the chord change you're feeling. The particulars of how it goes up or down speaks to the relationship between the chords, and their relationship to the key of the music.
I don't have a good link for 8 bar swing form ("jazz" brings up modern jazz (which is crazy complex) and older articles on ragtime progressions don't apply (often). If anyone has any good links for this, please share!
But anyway...tips:
Listen for the chord changes and pay attention to how they relate to each other. Where they came from (the last chord), where they went to, and where they feel like they're going. Try to hum along with them (hum the root of the chord). It's easiest to do this by listening and trying to hum along with the bass player, as they rarely venture far from the chord.
Listening to the bass player in general is good advice for feeling where the music is going. They really are the foundation the rest of the band is anchored to. Although depending on the music (especially if you're listening to actual Swing music) you may find the rhythm guitar is as good or better to listen to for direction.
Originally posted Thursday, September 9, 2010 (2 years ago)
Quote Listening to the bass player in general is good advice for feeling where the music is going. They really are the foundation the rest of the band is anchored to.
I don't really have anything to add, I just want to highlight the importance of this. If there is a crappy sound system (or a crappy bassist), I get lost. The bass is my rock for where we are in the music.
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
Originally posted Thursday, September 9, 2010 (2 years ago)
Quote Listening to the bass player in general is good advice for feeling where the music is going. They really are the foundation the rest of the band is anchored to.
Actually, in musicality classes and workshops I have taken, it was recommended to pay attention to each instrument in the ensemble. Percussion is a big part of jazz and forms "the heartbeat" behind the music, for example. But you can't dance to just the drums and the bass. Some people follow the "top line" of the music (vocalist or soloist) to the exclusion of everything else, and miss a lot.
The approach I agree with the most is to listen to a piece of music numerous times and try to follow what each member of the band (or section of a big band) is doing over the course of the song. Sometimes you can come up with the best moves by following something going on in the arrangement or performance that is neither drums, bass, nor top line. It may be a counter-melody or counter-rhythm going on. It could be what the rhythm guitar player is doing.
In other words, to focus on any one thing may be good when you are just starting out at this, but you can't really "get jazz" unless to pay attention to the whole thing.
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
Please note I wrote, "where the music is going", rather then where the beat of the music is. The bass player is more the navigator (path, goal, etc) then the engine (pulse). The "bass" people often believe they are listening for to get the beat is really the kick drum. It's an easy mistake as string bass blends very well with a properly setup and played kick drum, reinforcing it.
Generally speaking you can feel a kick drum more then you can hear it. While you can hear a bass more then you can feel it. So the two compliment each other well.
Quoted from Racetrack
Quoted from Zenin Listening to the bass player in general is good advice for feeling where the music is going. They really are the foundation the rest of the band is anchored to.
Percussion is a big part of jazz and forms "the heartbeat" behind the music, for example.
This is a common misconception. For the music we're talking about (20s-40s) the drummer isn't actually the core of the rhythm section. At the risk of way over generalizing: Look to the rhythm guitar for pulse, bass for direction, and percussion for dynamics and accents. There's (a lot of) overlap of course, different orchestrations will add or remove instruments, and different arrangements will shift roles at times, but it's a good place to start looking for Lindy.
When looking for the rhythm, in order of preference:
Rhythm Guitar ("chunk, chunk, chunk")
Kick Drum ("boom, boom, boom")
Bass ("bounce, bounce, bounce")
Snare ("roll...tat, roll...tat, roll...tat")
Hi-Hat/Ride Cymbal ("Tizz...tit-t-Tizz...tit-t-Tizz..")
The rhythm sections of classic jazz forms are one of the most misunderstood aspects of the music we dance to (by dancers and musicians alike). It's a prime reason why straight-ahead jazz players on the whole just do not get Swing. They think they do, but they really, really don't. Modern players will look first to the cymbal for their core rhythm when playing "swing", but notice the list above? Yep, it's dead last.
There are great counter-examples of course, such as Jamaica Jam - Teddy Powell, which holds a dominate rhythm with the cymbal through most of it. But note the cymbal isn't pulsing, it's shuffling, and it's almost ahead of the beat. It's more pulling then it is pushing. But the bass and kick drum are still there, pulsing in the back and pushing/driving the beat forward. This is where which dance you're doing starts affecting what you use for rhythm: Lindy dancers would do well to stay with the bass/kick drum, while Balboa dancers can make much better use of the shuffling cymbal for their core rhythm.
Quote Actually, in musicality classes and workshops I have taken, it was recommended to pay attention to each instrument in the ensemble.
It's a great exercise, but it only brushes the surface. Most people have a very difficult time isolating instruments in music. It's a skill that for most requires a lot of practice and unless they already are musicians probably haven't tried. There's a great deal of the detail in music that they actually do not hear, and don't know that they don't hear it.
There are people that can't easily separate the instrument sounds from a 5 piece band, and others whos ears are so well trained they can hear that the 3rd clarinet in a 200 piece orchestra is just a hair sharp.
Anyway, my actual point here is that being able to selectively hear the different instruments is only the first baby step (and just that much is hard in those "musicality" classes). Why they are each doing what they are doing, how it works with other instruments, how it all works together. What I dislike from those musicality classes is how they try and make you dance to each voice as if it was its own independent artwork. They assume that all of it is art, which is wrong already. Much of it is function, craft. It's the scaffolding that the art is built on.
Those classes will have you looking at the scaffolding as art, and try to interpret the "art" of the scaffolding as dance. Lame doesn't even begin to describe it. The scaffolding is there to create art on top of, so stop trying to interpret the non-existent art of the scaffolding and instead use it to create your own art.
Can you tell I think most of those "musicality" classes are bunk? ;-)
Quote But you can't dance to just the drums and the bass.
Why not?
The bass gives me the chord progression which in turn gives me direction, intention, goal. The drums give me dynamics. I'm 90% there and there isn't even a melody yet, but with the information I already have coming up with a melody to dance to is easy. And my follow won't be confused because it follows the path the chord progression has laid out which she'll hear and feel even if she can't explain the technicals of it.
Quote Sometimes you can come up with the best moves by following something going on in the arrangement or performance that is neither drums, bass, nor top line. It may be a counter-melody or counter-rhythm going on. It could be what the rhythm guitar player is doing.
There seems to be an idea here that these parts aren't intrinsically linked together. You can't go off what the rhythm guitar is doing, without implicitly going off the rhythm and chord progression...which is what the melody, harmony, and/or counter-melody is going off of too.
While they are all doing something "different", no one is doing anything completely "unique". If you pick any one chances are you're getting 80% of everything else by proxy.
It's not completely uncommon to find Jonathon Stout hanging out in the hallways of a dance event, strumming rhythm guitar chord progressions. Not much more then "chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk". Very danceable, because leaving behind 80% of the band doesn't leave behind 80% of the music.
Quote While they are all doing something "different", no one is doing anything completely "unique". If you pick any one chances are you're getting 80% of everything else by proxy.
Actually I would tend to agree with you there. I think the point of the musicality exercises involving focus on separate instruments is mostly to make you aware of what they are doing. Once you aware enough to hear what any particular instrument is doing it is your responsibility as a dancer to fit that in with the whole of what the entire band is doing.
In an actual dance, you should be open to whatever is going on in a way that you can slide your focus from player to player without losing a sense of the things ALL the players are doing.
The criticism I remember from one of the instructors when he taught his musicality class was about people who will base what they do throughout on an entire dance on JUST the drums or JUST the bass without paying any attention to anything else that is going on. That can lead to dancing that's repetitive and much less interesting than the music deserves.
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
Listen 24 hours a day! Weekly updated shows
tips to recognize musical structure when dancing
This topic can be considered as an extension of the following one : basic structure of a swing music
When dancing, the most difficult thing to realize, is to interpret accents into the music, and/or specific lyrics ... Not easy because you have to match specific counts of the music with specific counts of specific figures of the dance.
For that purpose, and depending the style of the dance, dancers built sets of rules and tips. But all of them remain on the ability of the dancers to anticipate accents of the music.
As a naturally-lazy-leader in west coast swing, rock, be-bop, the first strategy I developped to get this ability was based on my natural feeling of the music ... hoo my good ! ... very funny but very random too ...
Now, I need to break through that, and reach the next level : being able to classify in the firsts sets of 8 the song's structure as a swing, a blues or something else not being the two first ... If correctly done, I expect breaks and accents to be much more predictable.
Question is : Does anyone have tips and tricks to recognized swing and blues structures during the first sets of 8 (well, at least, before the end of the first stanza of a song) ? (For example, tips and tricks based on typical AABACC, ABAC, ..., patterns ?)
Please and thank you.
Yehoodi Featured Topics
(13 items total, 30 per page)
Most jazz music is a lot like poetry. If there are lyrics involved, in part it IS poetry. Think of each 8-count pattern as a "stanza" that is part of a "verse" consisting of several of "stanzas". The last "stanza" of the verse acts kind of like the period at the end of a sentence. Listen for one musical idea ending and another beginning in some tunes you are familiar with and you will start to get the idea.
The standard "swing" pattern consists of 8 bars (four 8-count "stanzas"). "It Don't Mean a Thing If You Ain't Got That Swing" is an example. The "blues" pattern repeats after 12 bars (six 8-count "stanzas"). "Walk Right In - Walk Right Out" (aka "The Walkin' Blues") is an example.
This is not nearly as complicated as it sounds when put into words. Musically it's quite simple. Sing or hum any song you like and you'll notice that there are places at regular intervals where one "musical idea" ends and is either repeated or followed by another "musical idea". Notice that in some songs the music you hear in the first verse is repeated note-for-note in the second ... sometimes with the exact same lyrics, sometimes not. But notice also that this repetition can't go on forever - variations and entirely new "musical ideas" start to appear as you go from verse to verse. But the number of beats (and 8-count stanzas) in each "verse" nearly always remains constant until the end of the song.
The first thing you need to do (something that's often taught first in lindy musicality workshops) is to make sure you know how to "find the 'one'" - that is, the first count of each 8-count "stanza".
This can be done with an exercise where you raise your hand or point up when you hear the "one" in each 8-count "stanza". The "one" in "The Walkin' Blues", for example, happens on the word "walk" at the beginning of each line in the lyrics of the first verse.
Once you know how to "find the 'one'", the rest is easy. If a new verse in the lyrics begins after you "find the 'one' " four times, its structure is "8-bar basic swing". If a new verse doesn't begin until you "find the 'one' " six times, its structure is "12-bar blues". Now some things I should mention that complicate this ... just a little.
--Some songs actually begin on count 8, just to mix things up a little. So you can't assume the first word in any given song always matches "the 'one'". "It Don't Mean a Thing" (an "8-bar basic swing" tune)is an example of this: The "one" DOESN'T happen on the word "It", but instead on "Don't"! (The "one" in the second line DOES begin on the first word,"ain't", however.) You may have to wait until the start of the second verse to get in synch with some tunes.
--Some numbers that are actually composed using the "12-bar blues" structure don't sound like blues at all. And a few numbers that are actually composed using the "8-bar standard swing" structure sound an awful lot like blues. Don't let the style and "feel" of a tune make you jump to assumptions about it's structure. "Standard Swing Pattern" and "Blues Pattern" are technical music theory terms that don't necessarily have anything to do with the style/mood/feel of a tune - only it's phrasing.
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
...yah, not so much. Walk Right In is a horrid example of 12 bar blues.
A) Only the chorus is in 12 bars, and even then it doesn't really follow a clear 12 bar blues form. That's probably because:
B) The verse is in 10 bars (five 8-counts)...!! Which then uses the first 8 of the next chorus to resolve the tension of the phrase. Because it's both releasing tension of the verse and building tension for the chorus it can effectively overlap the phrasing and drop an 8 count altogether. It's clever and awesome, but very unusual making it a bad example for general concepts.
For the common cases (eg, Walk Right In above is a very uncommon case) there are a few things you can listen for. Pretty much all music is the art of creating tension and resolving it again, blues and swing being no exception. The first 8 count of any phrase is going to build tension, and the 2nd 8 count is going to release it. This is your first big clue into what the phrasing is:
If the release feels like an answer (call/response), you're probably dealing with a blues form, probably 12 bar blues. You can think of 12 bar blues like: 1st 8 count: Ask a question (call) 2nd 8 count: Answer the question (response) 3rd 8 count: Ask the question, again (call, bigger) 4th 8 count: Answer the question, again (response, bigger) 5th 8 count: Ask the question a 3rd time, just in different words (call, screaming) 6th 8 count: Answer the question for good (response, final)
If the release feels like it's finishing the sentence the first 8 count started, you're probably dealing with an 8 bar swing form. The feeling won't be one of a call and response, more like: 1st 8 count: Start a sentence... 2nd 8 count: ...finish the sentence. 3rd 8 count: Start another sentence... 4th 8 count: ...finish the sentence, and the thought (phrase).
If you have a good ear you can also get more technical and listen for the underlying chord progressions, which are just the nuts and bolts of how that feeling of a build/release of tension is created.
All of this is in the very general, most common form. There are countless exceptions which come up with their own form that while similar, won't match up especially if you're counting on it for timing movements. Walk Right In is a great example of that, In The Mood is another (it uses both 8 and 12 bar forms, and the 12 bar is more "swing" feel then blues).
Regarding "Walk Right In" -
I think we are approaching the "blues" pattern with different agendas here. At the end of your post you have a very good description of the classic call and response pattern used by traditional blues. But I was going after something else that is more useful for swing music which has a lot of tunes that follow the 12-bar pattern without always conforming to the lyrical call and response structure of traditional blues.
As I mentioned at the end of my post,
Actually, "Walk Right In" isn't far from the classical "call and response" format (but I'll get to that later because that's not why I chose it as an example). The reason I chose it is because it's very easy to follow the 12-count pattern because:
1) Each of the first seven lines is identical to each other, and that includes the lyrics.
2) The first word used in each of the first seven lines of the lyrics ("walk") corresponds to the first musical count of the stanza, making it easy to follow the pattern.
This rigid pattern is only broken in the eighth line ("That's what this song's all about") which is sung in only 7 counts with the beginning of the next line of the lyrics starting on count 8(as often happens with blues and boogie lyrics). In any case, this last line is an obvious close to the first "musical idea".
As to the 10 bar structure that follows - this is simply a clever variation of the classic 12 bar pattern put into this song as part of a series of "blue" jokes. This song is an example of what some people call a "bait and switch" song. For other examples of this type of novelty number see:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-461157.html
In Lavay Smith's version of this tune, Line 1 of the first of these verses is a standard "call":
Line 2 consists of only one word (actually half word), "... buck", which happens on count one. The music continues for the next seven counts.
Line 3 and 4 are a repetition of lines 1 and 2.
Line 5 - the response - "When he (on count 8 of line 4) calls me in the morning all he wants to do is ..." theoretically should repeat this pattern of one full line, followed by an 8 count stanza consisting of only one syllable or word, like what happened in lines 1-2 and 3-4.
But the word line 6 would contain is the "F-word" which rhymes with "buck". So the last eight counts are omitted from the pattern and replaced with the "Walk right in - walk right out" reprise in its place. The same thing is done throughout the rest of the song with omitted two-bar lines that would contain words rhyming with "Chuck", "dumb", and "bucket".
If you put the missing "dirty word" lines back in, the 10 bar sequences would turn into standard 12 bar sequences.
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
Listen to lots of swing and blues music and play along with it. Just tap your feet or pat out a rhythm to go with it or hum or scat. Try and vary the the intensity and complexity of your rhythm or music with whatever is going on in the recording.
Stop trying to be so technical and just listen and respond. Think of your dancing as if your were another player in the band with only a head chart or no chart at all.
I'm not sure whether this is the cause of recognizing musical structure or the result of recognizing musical structure.
But in either case it's terrific advice!
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
Thank you all for your relevant posts.
But I'm used to for years now. The purpose and the sense of this post is to go beyond that point, by developping much more "theorical" and "technical" understanding of swing/blues structures.
But I'm totally in line with the idea that swing dancers are part of the orchestra. As a guitar player too, I dance "using my follower" as if I were playing my guitar, in harmony with the band, in the spirit of a jam session.
Don't be mistaken with the terms of "using my follower..." : You can't imagine how much I love, respect,
even adore my female-followers - as my guitar too :) -
Having a jam session with an orchestra and my "woman-in-arms" is an inexhaustible source of pleasure, to feel both free and together too ...
This link, just to get the picture of what so many dancers are looking for (and for the fun too):http://www.swingdanse.fr/video-de-la-semaine/ Have a special look to the 12th video. No choreography here, neither a formal couple : Only free interpretation of music, lyrics, very funny (poetry), in a "so-easy" way !
For sure, this "natural" and "so-easy" look involves a deep undestanding of the musical structure and by the way, suggest a hard technical work ...
From the technical arguments developped to classify songs within swing or blues structures box, what I do understand is that we can have different levels of interpretation/expression : A musical one, another one with lyrics, and finally an ultimate one being "poetic" ... Sorry to be so "formal" in an art which nature is not ...
Regarding "Walk right in" song, from the pure musical point of you, it is true that verse is in 5 sets-of-8. But from the "poetic" point of you, the "baith and switch" musical game is also very clear.
From the dance-leader point of you, this example is really the worst situation if you're only listening to the music: You expect a 6th set-of-8, but you're suddenly facing the chorus ! Ouuch !** But if you're listening to lyrics and guess the "baith and switch" game, you might be able to anticipate the shortcut of the 6th set-of-8 by the chorus ...
If I dare, as a dance-leader, I would classify this song in the third category : The one for non-pure-swing structure, and non-pure-blues-structure. The most hazardous for dancers.
That's why your advices, Racetrack, on poetry are so relevant for me, in this example, especially for this category.
By listning (and re-re-re ...listning) this song, I'm not able to find any pure musical clue to guess in advance the short-cut of the verse by the chorus. (Am I deaf ?)(Have you some other examples of such (swing) songs ?)
I really do like your explanations Zenin, about music being the art of creating tensions and resolving them. Now, making the difference between question/answer set-of-8 type rather than start/end type is not so easy, is it ? ... Could you explain this a little bit more ?
Also could you developped a little bit more some of your tips and tricks regarding the underlying chords progressions ?
Again, thank you all for your advices which really help !
** Of course, dancers have some technical tips and tricks, to face such surprise, but in general with mitigate results on the followers and on the public too ... The top would have been a funny interpretation of this suprise, by leading "a walk right in, walk right out" look-like dance-sequence, making the follower look like nicely "surprised", with large smiles, ... But again, this is easier when anticipated by the leader ... So imagined before the end of the 5th set-of-8 ...
Are you primarily a west coast swing dancer? I've noticed west coast swing dancers tend to have this affinity for being very technical about musicality. Personally, it's always given me a lot of trouble. I trained in music and music theory from a young age, and still... when I try to think about swing or blues music from a technical perspective, it gives me a headache.
I truly believe that until you can feel the music in your gut, you will not achieve what you're aiming for. I know some people find it easier to approach musicality from a technical perspective, but I worry sometimes that that approach takes people further away from their goal. The more you think, the less you rely on instinct. Swing and blues music are heavily instinctual. There are certain patterns and conventions that make them somewhat predictable, but the musicians are also constantly colouring outside the lines and creating new shapes within them.
So how do you develop that instinct? Practice and familiarity with the music, but also with your range of options on how to respond and interact with that music. Listening to music at home and moving to it in a variety of ways, experimenting to see what works in various situations and how you can adapt it to fit others (or fit the same situation in a different way). Do this enough and you won't have to think about what's coming next because you'll just know. Neither will you have to think about how you're going to dance to it. Even if something unexpected comes up in the music, you should be able to react to it instinctively.
Also note when you're watching WCS videos that 99% of the music played at WCS events is very familiar. Every WCS event I've been to... they play the same songs over and over and over and over again. So people know exactly what's coming in the song because they've danced to it a million times before. And most of the pros have been dancing since they were children, so they're very comfortable with their range of options too.
It just takes lots of practice, total comfort with the fundamentals of the dance, and then experimentation outside the box.
Excellent points, Bryn.
There is a great quote in a New Yorker article from Ben Polcer of the Loose Marbles:
I really appreciate live music for the spontaneity, the fact that I can hear something different in the same tune every time I hear it. It keeps the dance fresh for me.
Ideally, I think the dancing should fit not only the phrasing but the melodies, harmonies and everything else going on. Skye and Frida's Twenty Four Robbers routine is a hallmark example. It's incredibly musical beyond the standard structure of music. The phrasing in the dance is implicit because the music follows a conventional musical structure.
Take the Freddie Green tune Corner Pocket recorded by Count Basie. Frankie often used that tune to illustrate phrasing of a standard 32 bar tune. That's fine and you can dance in a way that will hit all the phrasing spot on. It's one of my favorite tunes but I've heard some versions so often that I know every little nonce and my dancing to it is almost predictable. If you listen to one version compared to another, the solos can have a totally different feel and inspire totally different movements that keeps it fresh. Simply following the solos will give you the phrasing and 32 bar structure without specifically looking for it.
Simply listening and responding to the music will also give you the tools to work with unconventional phrasing. What if a song has an unusual 1 bar (4 beat) bridge or it's a recording that skips or has an inconsistent structure?
Now, it may be a bit different in the WCS world where it's more common to dance to the music in your head rather than what's playing as Skippy Blair explains.
This clip? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqVYEiRpYRE
I'll echo what Bryn said; While I'm sure these dancers most likely have a very good grasp of the musical structures in the song, they have little need to leverage that understanding as the track is clearly very familiar to both of them.
On a completely side topic, fantastic examples like this abound from the West Coast Swing scene. After watching clips like this I can't help but realize how much "Blues" dancing is to WCS as "The Swing" is to Lindy Hop. 'Just sayin' :-)
Honestly it's really difficult in a web forum format. When I get into these topics it's normally while car pooling somewhere and I can flip through my iPod for examples while making abundant use of pause and rewind. My ear is better at hearing chord progressions then my brain is at doing the actual math.
Your questions are linked however. Call/response is tension/release. Begin/End is also tension/release. It's just different types of tension and different releases, which speaks to the chord progression. The underlying chord progression is typically the largest factor affecting the ebb and flow of the song within a given phrase, everything else really follows its lead. When the song feels like it goes "up" in one 8 count, then "down" in the next, it's the chord change you're feeling. The particulars of how it goes up or down speaks to the relationship between the chords, and their relationship to the key of the music.
Wiki has a decent article detailing the basic music theory of common chord progressions in 12 bar blues: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-bar_blues
I don't have a good link for 8 bar swing form ("jazz" brings up modern jazz (which is crazy complex) and older articles on ragtime progressions don't apply (often). If anyone has any good links for this, please share!
But anyway...tips: Listen for the chord changes and pay attention to how they relate to each other. Where they came from (the last chord), where they went to, and where they feel like they're going. Try to hum along with them (hum the root of the chord). It's easiest to do this by listening and trying to hum along with the bass player, as they rarely venture far from the chord.
Listening to the bass player in general is good advice for feeling where the music is going. They really are the foundation the rest of the band is anchored to. Although depending on the music (especially if you're listening to actual Swing music) you may find the rhythm guitar is as good or better to listen to for direction.
I don't really have anything to add, I just want to highlight the importance of this. If there is a crappy sound system (or a crappy bassist), I get lost. The bass is my rock for where we are in the music.
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
Actually, in musicality classes and workshops I have taken, it was recommended to pay attention to each instrument in the ensemble. Percussion is a big part of jazz and forms "the heartbeat" behind the music, for example. But you can't dance to just the drums and the bass. Some people follow the "top line" of the music (vocalist or soloist) to the exclusion of everything else, and miss a lot.
The approach I agree with the most is to listen to a piece of music numerous times and try to follow what each member of the band (or section of a big band) is doing over the course of the song. Sometimes you can come up with the best moves by following something going on in the arrangement or performance that is neither drums, bass, nor top line. It may be a counter-melody or counter-rhythm going on. It could be what the rhythm guitar player is doing.
In other words, to focus on any one thing may be good when you are just starting out at this, but you can't really "get jazz" unless to pay attention to the whole thing.
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
Please note I wrote, "where the music is going", rather then where the beat of the music is. The bass player is more the navigator (path, goal, etc) then the engine (pulse). The "bass" people often believe they are listening for to get the beat is really the kick drum. It's an easy mistake as string bass blends very well with a properly setup and played kick drum, reinforcing it.
Generally speaking you can feel a kick drum more then you can hear it. While you can hear a bass more then you can feel it. So the two compliment each other well.
This is a common misconception. For the music we're talking about (20s-40s) the drummer isn't actually the core of the rhythm section. At the risk of way over generalizing: Look to the rhythm guitar for pulse, bass for direction, and percussion for dynamics and accents. There's (a lot of) overlap of course, different orchestrations will add or remove instruments, and different arrangements will shift roles at times, but it's a good place to start looking for Lindy.
When looking for the rhythm, in order of preference: Rhythm Guitar ("chunk, chunk, chunk") Kick Drum ("boom, boom, boom") Bass ("bounce, bounce, bounce") Snare ("roll...tat, roll...tat, roll...tat") Hi-Hat/Ride Cymbal ("Tizz...tit-t-Tizz...tit-t-Tizz..")
The rhythm sections of classic jazz forms are one of the most misunderstood aspects of the music we dance to (by dancers and musicians alike). It's a prime reason why straight-ahead jazz players on the whole just do not get Swing. They think they do, but they really, really don't. Modern players will look first to the cymbal for their core rhythm when playing "swing", but notice the list above? Yep, it's dead last.
There are great counter-examples of course, such as Jamaica Jam - Teddy Powell, which holds a dominate rhythm with the cymbal through most of it. But note the cymbal isn't pulsing, it's shuffling, and it's almost ahead of the beat. It's more pulling then it is pushing. But the bass and kick drum are still there, pulsing in the back and pushing/driving the beat forward. This is where which dance you're doing starts affecting what you use for rhythm: Lindy dancers would do well to stay with the bass/kick drum, while Balboa dancers can make much better use of the shuffling cymbal for their core rhythm.
It's a great exercise, but it only brushes the surface. Most people have a very difficult time isolating instruments in music. It's a skill that for most requires a lot of practice and unless they already are musicians probably haven't tried. There's a great deal of the detail in music that they actually do not hear, and don't know that they don't hear it.
There are people that can't easily separate the instrument sounds from a 5 piece band, and others whos ears are so well trained they can hear that the 3rd clarinet in a 200 piece orchestra is just a hair sharp.
Anyway, my actual point here is that being able to selectively hear the different instruments is only the first baby step (and just that much is hard in those "musicality" classes). Why they are each doing what they are doing, how it works with other instruments, how it all works together. What I dislike from those musicality classes is how they try and make you dance to each voice as if it was its own independent artwork. They assume that all of it is art, which is wrong already. Much of it is function, craft. It's the scaffolding that the art is built on.
Those classes will have you looking at the scaffolding as art, and try to interpret the "art" of the scaffolding as dance. Lame doesn't even begin to describe it. The scaffolding is there to create art on top of, so stop trying to interpret the non-existent art of the scaffolding and instead use it to create your own art.
Can you tell I think most of those "musicality" classes are bunk? ;-)
Why not?
The bass gives me the chord progression which in turn gives me direction, intention, goal. The drums give me dynamics. I'm 90% there and there isn't even a melody yet, but with the information I already have coming up with a melody to dance to is easy. And my follow won't be confused because it follows the path the chord progression has laid out which she'll hear and feel even if she can't explain the technicals of it.
There seems to be an idea here that these parts aren't intrinsically linked together. You can't go off what the rhythm guitar is doing, without implicitly going off the rhythm and chord progression...which is what the melody, harmony, and/or counter-melody is going off of too.
While they are all doing something "different", no one is doing anything completely "unique". If you pick any one chances are you're getting 80% of everything else by proxy.
It's not completely uncommon to find Jonathon Stout hanging out in the hallways of a dance event, strumming rhythm guitar chord progressions. Not much more then "chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk". Very danceable, because leaving behind 80% of the band doesn't leave behind 80% of the music.
Actually I would tend to agree with you there. I think the point of the musicality exercises involving focus on separate instruments is mostly to make you aware of what they are doing. Once you aware enough to hear what any particular instrument is doing it is your responsibility as a dancer to fit that in with the whole of what the entire band is doing.
In an actual dance, you should be open to whatever is going on in a way that you can slide your focus from player to player without losing a sense of the things ALL the players are doing.
The criticism I remember from one of the instructors when he taught his musicality class was about people who will base what they do throughout on an entire dance on JUST the drums or JUST the bass without paying any attention to anything else that is going on. That can lead to dancing that's repetitive and much less interesting than the music deserves.
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
(13 items total, 30 per page)
BBCode is no longer supported. Use Markdown instead: