I'm a guy who has been (slowly, very slowly) learning to lead (Lindy Hop) for the past two-and-a-half years or so. I'm delightfully mediocre, and so I even surprised myself a bit in deciding to learn to follow. And tonight I took my first Paul and Sharon (level 1A) class as a follow.
I made a few interesting observations:
Most of the beginner male leads were quite friendly and some even a bit amused by my learning to follow, but at least one was decidedly uncomfortable about leading a guy. Better odds than I thought. Then again, this IS San Francisco :D
The transition was easier than I anticipated, at least for the comparatively-easy stuff that we did tonight (6 count basic, straightforward Charleston), and I was pleased that I was even able to chat a bit without "losing my place."
It's nice having a bit less pressure.
I wasn't terribly surprised when one of my leads (actually, a woman who's been following for several years) noted that I was a "definitely different" than the women she led in class. When briefly pressed for details, she noted my broader shoulders (duh), and also how I felt "heavier." Ack :(
And perhaps not coincidentally, this particular follow led me with a featherweight touch... an almost imperceptible lead for me, in fact.
So this raises a couple of questions:
1) For leads who've followed my path before (learning to follow) or knowledgeable follows out there, do you have any advice on how I can be "less heavy"?
2) Can I extrapolate info about follower's preferences from how they lead me? For example, can I assume the aforementioned female absolutely prefers a light lead when she's following (based upon how I felt her lead, not just what she said)?
3) Have other guys found that they can learn stuff when following... new moves, hints they can use in their own leading?
4) Do you have any other advice for what I should strongly concentrate on or pay attention to while I'm learning to follow?
I don't intend to move far up the ranks with this, at least class-wise (probably just 8 sessions, or two months worth of classes as a follow for now), because I'd prefer to focus on my lead skills over the long haul. But still, I'd really love to become a better follow, too... especially if I can somehow significantly improve my leading in the process :)
Thanks in advance for any encouragement or advice you can offer!
Originally posted Wednesday, October 8, 2003 (8 years ago)
As a lead, what can you learn by learning how to follow? ALOT
How to be a lighter follow? Some ideas: be responsible for your own weight, use less counterbalance, respond to leads more quickly, think of all those things that heavy follows do to you and try to figure out how not to do that when you dance, think about all the things that light follows do to you and figure out how to do that when you dance.
Followers preferances by the way they lead? Not necessarily. Many girls just have a lighter lead than men, part of it's a strength issue. Although, for many (myself included), we know what it's like to have our arm wrenched by an overly agressive lead- so we try not to do that. :wink:
Any other advice? Learn how to move like a follow. That doesn't mean figuring out how to swivel in a feminine way (although, you can if you want!). That means, don't just do what you think you're supposed to do- actually follow. So many of the guys that I've lead follow like leads, they do only what they think they're supposed to do and I can't get them to do anything else (like what I'm actually leading). This includes things like: turning yourself in a swingout, not keeping good frame, not listening to the lead for your weight shifts (ie. you continue to step step rock-step, even though you're being lead to step step step step), etc. Essentially, think of the things that follows do that you don't like, and try not to do that.
Learning the opposite role is great, in my opinion. It's a good way to learn what to do, or NOT to do in your primary role. You may realize that something you though was really cool hurts like a mofo when you're following it, or something you thought was kinda boring might feel really cool to a follow. I think it's a good way to learn to be a better social dancer, and you pick up on things in your own dancing that other people might not tell you. :roll:
Originally posted Wednesday, October 8, 2003 (8 years ago)
All of MsV's observations are good; I've been following for about 6 years (or 7, I forget), and leading for....4, I think.
Though some male follows are heavy, BTW, I find that more common with female follows (and it has nothing to do with their build or body size). But strength is an issue for me: I'm 5'7", but I weigh about 115, and also have had some shoulder injuries. There are follows I will only lead when there's a jam and it would be rude to not go there! (Because I sometimes find myself nursing a sore shoulder for a week after one dance!)
It sounds like you're getting a lot from this. Continue with it, and you'll see how it will strengthen your lead skills, too. Don't forget to use it socially once your class ends, either! :D
Originally posted Wednesday, October 8, 2003 (8 years ago)
In my humble opinion, you should disabuse yourself of the notion of trying to "be light" altogether. Follows who are exceptionally light -- and by "light" in this context I mean they feel like a feather on the end of your hand -- actually tend to be difficult to lead. They tend to have two related problems: anticipating the lead (not waiting for the lead and being overly reactive) and getting ahead of the lead (timing wise... ie, their feet actually hit the floor before the leaders).
What I'm saying is that "being a good follow" is something independent of "being light." In fact, most great follows I know don't feel "light" at all; rather, you can fully feel their center and their bodyweight through the connection. Furthermore, they're always truly waiting for the lead, which means you really have to move them. Virginie talks about this a lot in her classes, about making the leads work to move them. It's a good sort of heaviness... a natural feeling of the follow's bodyweight.
So instead of "being light" I'd recommend focusing on two concepts: inertia and connection. To illustrate, imagine rolling a bowling ball from hand to hand on a table. The bowling ball displays two important behaviors: it rolls from hand to hand without stopping (inertia). Ie, you don't have to drag it constantly. And as you begin to catch it, it doesn't just suddenly reverse direction as your hand begins to make contact. Rather, its momentum continues into your hand where you can really feel the weight of the bowling ball. Hence, connection. And it waits for the lead. Mmmm.... booowling balls...
So if you dance with natural inertia, meaning you keep moving in the direction lead until given a lead otherwise, and you're always seeking out the connection with your partner, and you wait for the lead, you'll probably be light enough.
That said, everyone has a different default level of connection, and each dance requires a sort of mutual negotiation and compromise. With a female lead, the situation is problemmatic because the weight distribution is somewhat unnatural. Does the moon revolve around the earth or vice versa? In the natural scheme of things, the guy is like the earth, the follow like the moon, and it works well because the guy is indeed more massive. But if the situation is reversed, it's a bit unnatural, and then indeed you may have to work somewhat at "being light" in the way I just recommended against.
But, there are other reasons you may feel heavy. If you lack the inertia component of your dancing, you'll be heavy in the bad sort of way, because the lead will have to drag you through every step. If your frame is overly rigid this can tend to make you feel difficult to move. If you lack a certain flexibility in your body (most guys do), then some movements will feel a bit off and more difficult. If your spin technique is suboptimal you'll resist certain things... etc... etc...
Originally posted Wednesday, October 8, 2003 (8 years ago)
Quote If you lack the inertia component of your dancing, you'll be heavy in the bad sort of way, because the lead will have to drag you through every step.
Exactly. "Light" to me is not nonexistant...because, as stated above, anticipation is also not good. It's not following, it's back-leading... :)
"Light" to me means that yes, I can sense the follow (especially her/his center) but that I don't feel as though I'm hauling around a sack of potatoes (dead weight). The follow should be responsive.
Originally posted Wednesday, October 8, 2003 (8 years ago)
What I have learned from following after leading for over three years and following for just over one year:
<
ul>[ :aab1fd008d]Too much counterbalance is a bad thing - The "sack-of-potatoes" weight when being a lead or a follow hurts either way... When I started following, not only did I pull back with a lot of counterbalance, but, I also pulled slightly downward... When I was made aware of my gargantuan weight, I was asked to move more weight over my own feet and to bend my knees a bit more... This translated into less counterbalance and a quicker level of responsiveness... This helped my lead by realizing that I did not need to "sit back" to provide a lot of counterbalance...[ :aab1fd008d]Act and react to moves in a timely fashion - When I started, I did not realize that there was so much involved to follow... I have learned to feel a lead, interpret where I was being moved to, and react to go in that direction... I have improved the clarity of my moves because I can appreciate the amount of time it takes for a follow to react to moves... I have also learned to adjust the strength/weight of my lead depending on who is following...[ :aab1fd008d]Tag team swing - I have learned to switch between a lead and follow and vice versa in the middle of a dance... This adds a bit more spontaneity to the dance because neither of us knows who will be leading at the next eight count...[/list:u:aab1fd008d]I will add more as I think of them... :D
Originally posted Wednesday, October 8, 2003 (8 years ago)
I hate to sound negative on this, but the main thing I learned from taking classes as a follower is what the followers have to put up with. It was eye-opening to say the least and, in some cases, painful. :-?
I'm a relatively small guy, 5'7" 135lb. When I was learning the quick stop some of the leads wrenched my arm and shoulder so hard that I dreaded "rotating" around to them again in the class. I can't imagine what the 100lb women were going through.
Besides learning the basics of following, the experience led me to form my 1 rule for swing dancing: Don't hurt your partner!!
Originally posted Wednesday, October 8, 2003 (8 years ago)
Quoted from "ThatAdamGuy" - Most of the beginner male leads were quite friendly and some even a bit amused by my learning to follow, but at least one was decidedly uncomfortable about leading a guy. Better odds than I thought. Then again, this IS San Francisco :D
Don't worry, that guy will eventually become comfortable with your being the follow as long as he sees that you're serious and it's not a way for you to pick up on the guys. ;)
Actually, your role as an experienced lead that they can comfortably approach with advice or questions will help in their attitude towards you. You'll become like a mentor or big brother to them.
Quote - The transition was easier than I anticipated, at least for the comparatively-easy stuff that we did tonight (6 count basic, straightforward Charleston), and I was pleased that I was even able to chat a bit without "losing my place."
Good. Getting the correct footwork is the first step. Har har. Wait 'til you get to the swingout in 1B!
Quote - It's nice having a bit less pressure.
I always say it's like not having to drive.
Quote I wasn't terribly surprised when one of my leads (actually, a woman who's been following for several years) noted that I was a "definitely different" than the women she led in class. When briefly pressed for details, she noted my broader shoulders (duh), and also how I felt "heavier." Ack :(
And perhaps not coincidentally, this particular follow led me with a featherweight touch... an almost imperceptible lead for me, in fact.
As has been expressed above, heavy and light really isn't the issue. Connection and feeling of body weight - no matter how heavy or light - is. You will become lighter, once you learn to control your center (i.e. balance, you clod!) and actually have a frame. A follower's frame, which is very different in some respects from a leader's frame.
Quote So this raises a couple of questions:
1) For leads who've followed my path before (learning to follow) or knowledgeable follows out there, do you have any advice on how I can be "less heavy"?
Take smaller steps. If you make your weight transfers more incremental, then there's less interia to overcome when leading you.
Close your eyes. This can help if you particularly cannot let go of your control.
Learn the footwork really well, but don't be a slave to it. Do your own patterns on your own time - either when it's given to you or when you're leading.
Build that follower's frame. Build that receiver that gets the leader's signals and follow only that.
Quote 2) Can I extrapolate info about follower's preferences from how they lead me? For example, can I assume the aforementioned female absolutely prefers a light lead when she's following (based upon how I felt her lead, not just what she said)?
Ah. that beggars the question on whether you know the difference in light or heavy leads? The answer is that there isn't - if you're leading from your body to hers! You're responsible for the "weight" that she "gives" you. I'm not saying you have to carry her weight...just lead enough to change its direction!
So if you're not really feeling the female leader's leads, then either she's not really leading YOU or you're not really connecting with her. Both are equally valid ways for the lead-follow relationship to break down. Or, both cases can be true, too. ;)
Sometimes there is a difference between wants and needs, so I wouldn't read too much into what she would prefer as a follower. Plus, individual differences in leading "weights" can vary, so what one leader would call a light follow, you might consider heavy. It's more like what she would prefer for her followers.
Quote 3) Have other guys found that they can learn stuff when following... new moves, hints they can use in their own leading?
Yes. Although I personally like to concentrate on footwork and/or musicality while following, so it's more about how the leader leads me rather than what he leads me into that I pick up different ways to lead from being the follow.
Quote 4) Do you have any other advice for what I should strongly concentrate on or pay attention to while I'm learning to follow?
Make your standard footwork automatic. Make your follower's frame automatic.
Quote I don't intend to move far up the ranks with this, at least class-wise (probably just 8 sessions, or two months worth of classes as a follow for now), because I'd prefer to focus on my lead skills over the long haul. But still, I'd really love to become a better follow, too... especially if I can somehow significantly improve my leading in the process :)
See this topic for a lively discussion and great ideas.
Originally posted Wednesday, October 8, 2003 (8 years ago)
Quoted from "hepcat9" I hate to sound negative on this, but the main thing I learned from taking classes as a follower is what the followers have to put up with.
That's not negative, that's one of the main benefits! Followers appreciate leads who treat them gently. The best compliment I've ever received on the dance floor was "I feel totally safe dancing with you".
In some cases guys learning to follow may find they are actually treated more roughly than women. Maybe their leader thinks he needs to be rougher to prove his masculinity, or something silly like that.
Originally posted Wednesday, October 8, 2003 (8 years ago)
1) Practice. Practice, practice, practice. Pay attention to the lead. Pay attention to the connection, both when leading and following. Follow the connection, not the person you're dancing with.
2) Not really. I followed a girl who was a pretty heavy lead, and who didn't like how I am a light follow. When I lead her, she was a rather light follow herself.
3) Definitely. Mainly, though, you learn connection stuff through following. However, if being shown a new move, it helps to follow it. It helps to learn what you need her to do more than it helps to learn what you need to do.
4) Try to remember the things you admire about good follows you've danced with, and try to emulate that. Try to avoid doing things you wish follows didn't do. Finally, communicate with leads. Dance with some experienced leads, and ask them for feedback on your follow.
Originally posted Wednesday, October 8, 2003 (8 years ago)
I'm no expert... but here are my thoughts.
For the first couple months that I was dancing, I needed a strong lead in order to know what to do. But as I started to get more and more accustomed to following, I found it easier and easier to respond to lighter and lighter leads. I think it's a matter of muscle memory and once you get to the point where you don't have to think about it anymore, it's easier to relax and therefore easier to respond.
Now in terms of being a light or heavy follow, I try to match my partner's level of counterbalance. If I'm dancing with a strong lead, I'm likely to be a heavier follow than if I'm dancing with a light lead. It's all about taking responsibility for the majority of your weight, and giving just enough so that you feel a comfortable balance between you and your partner. And don't anticipate or resist, just wait until you feel the lead.
It will all come with time and practice. Congrats on learning to follow! I think that's a great idea. I'm trying to learn how to lead, myself.
Originally posted Wednesday, October 8, 2003 (8 years ago)
I think I'm hearing you say you want to follow only to become a better leader. Which is way cool in my book. If this is true then I suggest you pay closest attention to connection and lead and follow techniques, instead of footwork or styling.
For instance, how much clarity from your leader does it take to put you in the right place? You're a beginning follower. If a leader can get you to do interesting things then this is a good leader. Pay attention to what that leader feels like and try to emulate that.
A lot of guys think more is called for to get a follower to do things. The truth is it's usually less. The fewer signals you give someone, the more likely they are to understand. So as you follow, figure out what is confusing from leaders, when strong is too strong, when light is too light. (Keeping in mind that every new follower should be a minor adjustment for a leader of course based on what she needs.)
Some people look great and feel like crap. As a follower you can now figure out what body movements might look cool but feel horrible to a partner. The best leaders out there feel so clear and easy but can still do crazy things with their bodies.
Andy Reid comes to mind in this instance. He gets knocked by a lot of the westie judges because his personal body movement looks too crazy for them (which is a whole other issue entirely). But I always watch the follower and know his lead is clear because she's always being put where she's supposed to be and never seemed to be pulled off or yanked. He understands the difference between personal body movement and lead/follow movement. Which in my book means he's achieved an even higher level than most leaders ever do.
As you begin to learn what followers feel you can refine your lead to be more clear, learn limits on either extreme of light and heavy, learn the difference between looking good and feeling good, and even what moves are more fun for the follower to be lead through.
Women who become leaders usually feel amazing and look really boring. This is because they know what it feels like and usually care most about that area. Becoming a follower can help you get a little more of that in your lead.
And when you get more of that women will line up to dance with you. Seriously!
:wink:
Originally posted Wednesday, October 8, 2003 (8 years ago)
Quote With a female lead, the situation is problemmatic because the weight distribution is somewhat unnatural. Does the moon revolve around the earth or vice versa? In the natural scheme of things, the guy is like the earth, the follow like the moon, and it works well because the guy is indeed more massive. But if the situation is reversed, it's a bit unnatural, and then indeed you may have to work somewhat at "being light" in the way I just recommended against.
I've loved this thread - great info, dug the bowling ball idea. But I hated the earth and moon thing because it makes it sound like 140lb guys dancing with 170lb girls is unnatural. I'm a follow who has danced with shorter, taller, smaller, larger, whatever. The size of the person doesn't affect whether the dance feels right or wrong. It's the ability of the lead to lead and my ability to follow. I could very well be talking out my azz, but it's just what I think.
Originally posted Wednesday, October 8, 2003 (8 years ago)
Quoted from "sinner"
I've loved this thread - great info, dug the bowling ball idea. But I hated the earth and moon thing because it makes it sound like 140lb guys dancing with 170lb girls is unnatural. I'm a follow who has danced with shorter, taller, smaller, larger, whatever. The size of the person doesn't affect whether the dance feels right or wrong. It's the ability of the lead to lead and my ability to follow. I could very well be talking out my azz, but it's just what I think.
I realize in retrospect that using the word "unnatural" could be construed as insulting, and I apologize if that's the case. I didn't mean it that way.
Typically, the lead moves a little less than the follow and covers less ground, as in a swingout, for example. And the lead to some extent, also initiates the follow's movement. So theoretically, the laws of physics would indicate that it's the heavier object that should move less and initiate the movement of the lighter object. For example, if the couple stood on ice, held hands, and pulled towards each other, the lightest of the two would move more than the heaviest. That's just how inertia works...
My theory is that in general the optimal situation is one in which you come as close to these physical laws as possible. Which is to say the same sort of "orbit" you trace in, say, a swingout matches that which would occur if you were floating in space rotating around each other through gravity alone. But I didn't mean to suggest that heavy lead/light follow is somehow the only viable partnership. It just means you'll need to adapt to your partner and change the way you move and counterbalance accordingly. At the other end of the spectrum, an extremely big lead with a tiny follow presents the opposite challenge. The lead will have to be careful not to overpower the follow such that she traces a comet's orbit. ;) And it's really just a theory... someone could probably show me ways it's incorrect.
Originally posted Wednesday, October 8, 2003 (8 years ago)
I find that very often, how "heavy" or "light" someone feels doing lindy is not necessarily an indication of how heavy or light they actually are. This is because a lead isn't actually dragging a follow around, (s)he's just directing the motion. The follow is largely responsible for his/her own weight, counterbalance, and momentum.
Originally posted Wednesday, October 8, 2003 (8 years ago)
Quoted from "mouth"
Women who become leaders usually feel amazing and look really boring. This is because they know what it feels like and usually care most about that area. Becoming a follower can help you get a little more of that in your lead.
And when you get more of that women will line up to dance with you. Seriously!
:wink:
HAHAH sooo true
I am constantly saying that the reason I dont really like to lead guys that much is cause they are heavy and too fast.
My advise to you would be to RELAX and just stay on your own feet and listen to what the lead is saying. Dont be like "oh I know what this move is" and do it (or what you think it is). I think the biggest problem with new follows be it guys or girls is anticipating.
Originally posted Thursday, October 9, 2003 (8 years ago)
Quote I realize in retrospect that using the word "unnatural" could be construed as insulting, and I apologize if that's the case. I didn't mean it that way.
I admit that I'm overly sensitive to anything that says boys are this way and girls are that way. Residual effect of gender studies.
And I have to say that it's darn impressive to read about dancing and actually learn something. Obviously, I'm new to the Yehoodi thing.
Originally posted Thursday, October 9, 2003 (8 years ago)
Quoted from "bryn"
Quoted from "HoosierDaddy"
Quoted from "Slick Rik" You will learn whether or not you actually know how to spin. And why "stirring the pot" is so evil.
Why is "stirring the pot" evil?
:o :spineyes: :green: :crash:
Interesting response. I take it to mean that you think that "stirring the pot" is unambiguously wrong and doesn't merit discussion. Well then, what would would you say to Peter Strom http://workshop.danandcaitlin.com/pgs/pg01.html who once stood on a mountain and sayethed something like, "Leads, do some of the work. Help the follow out. Don't just stand there flipping 2 fingers." (He was talking about a multiple turn.)
Originally posted Thursday, October 9, 2003 (8 years ago)
Holy Lindy, there's a ton of good info here!
It's gonna take a while for me to digest it all, and I'm sure after I practice some following (with my whopping two moves so far <g>) tomorrow night, I'll be back here with more observations and questions.
Thanks so much, all of you! This is an example of what makes Yehoodi so great :)
Originally posted Thursday, October 9, 2003 (8 years ago)
Quoted from "HoosierDaddy"
Quoted from "bryn"
Quoted from "HoosierDaddy"
Quoted from "Slick Rik" You will learn whether or not you actually know how to spin. And why "stirring the pot" is so evil.
Why is "stirring the pot" evil?
:o :spineyes: :green: :crash:
Interesting response. I take it to mean that you think that "stirring the pot" is unambiguously wrong and doesn't merit discussion. Well then, what would would you say to Peter Strom http://workshop.danandcaitlin.com/pgs/pg01.html who once stood on a mountain and sayethed something like, "Leads, do some of the work. Help the follow out. Don't just stand there flipping 2 fingers." (He was talking about a multiple turn.)
No no no... that was an illustrated response to tell you why I think "stirring the pot" is evil. Or can be evil. Sometimes it's ok.
Originally posted Thursday, October 9, 2003 (8 years ago)
Re: stirring the pot... (not exactly sure what that means)
Perhaps someone should just create a separate thread on this, but in terms of spin technique, I don't believe the lead should simply hold his hand in one spot over the follow's head. I've been doing a lot of WCS lately, where multiple spins are a much larger component of the dance, and the techinque I've learned and generally see is for the lead to circle his hand over the follow's head roughly as if he were tracing a halo (with exact hand placement dependent on the direction of the spin.) The follow's hand basically stays in front of her head, not directly over it.
Along with that, however, the actual impetus for the spin that's generated by the leader isn't constant. In the case of a cha n turns, for example, there's sort of a slight pulse initiating the first half. In the latter half as the follow completes the turn, it's more like the lead is relaxing his hand/arm somewhat and letting his hand simply follow hers, rather than vice-versa. Difficult to articulate in print, easier to demonstrate...
Along similar lines, in many cases, the spin is generated from something other than the hand over the follow's head. Ie, the follow's momentum is driven by the other hand, say via her back, and the spin hand is mostly following through and adapting to the follow's momentum. For example, in an outside turn done in a swingout, if the lead rotates his body/shoulders 90 degrees on 5 and brings the follow with him (body lead), making her turn 90 degrees also, he's already setup the momentum for her spin, and his left hand basically just follows along with her, casting over her head on 6. There doesn't need to be a huge amount of pressure with the left hand.
If that sort of initiation of momentum doesn't occur, then yeah, it'll feel bad because the lead will be dragging the follow through the turn with his left arm. Perhaps this is what's being referred to by "stirring the pot..."?
Originally posted Thursday, October 9, 2003 (8 years ago)
Re: Learning from following
I think an important thing a lead can learn from following is the fact that sometimes what you "think" you lead doesn't always get communicated to your follow. There are some gentlemen (and ladies) who lead me in certain moves who are surprised to see me do something completely different than they wanted. Often times, the communication aka "connection" isn't there and there's a misinterpretation between what they want and what I do.
Hopefully I haven't completely confused you during the above explanation.
Re: "Stirring the Pot"
If you're talking about what I think you are, some folks may find that "evil" because "stirring" quickly becomes "cranking" and that is completely and totally uncomfortable and painful. You're not helping me turn, your just hurting me during my turn. One of my pet peeves...
Re: West Coast Turns
Quoted from "Phlurg" I've been doing a lot of WCS lately, where multiple spins are a much larger component of the dance, and the techinque I've learned and generally see is for the lead to circle his hand over the follow's head roughly as if he were tracing a halo (with exact hand placement dependent on the direction of the spin.) The follow's hand basically stays in front of her head, not directly over it.
A question and a comment since I've started doing a bit of West Coast myself...
What would you suggest to leads who are shorter than their follows? Because that technique isn't going to work with people who have a 3 or 4 inch height difference... is it?
Also, maybe I'm misinterpreting it, but it reads like the lead is sort of "controlling" the speed of the spin in the above example. Now that would bother me a bit, because I like to play with the speed and duration of my spins. It seems like there's an option being taken away from the follow. Please discuss.
By the way, I love the analogies... I feel like I'm in my high school Physics class again!
Tina 8)
bluesSHOUT! 2010 is coming to Austin!
http://www.bluesshout.com
Favorite Tim Tebow-ism: Jesus opens presents on Tim Tebow's birthday. :)
Originally posted Thursday, October 9, 2003 (8 years ago)
Quoted from "Phlurg" I've learned and generally see is for the lead to circle his hand over the follow's head roughly as if he were tracing a halo (with exact hand placement dependent on the direction of the spin.) The follow's hand basically stays in front of her head, not directly over it.
That's how salsa works, too. In salsa, if you bring her hand straight over her head, "Lindy style," that's the lead for a drop, not a spin.
Originally posted Thursday, October 9, 2003 (8 years ago)
Quoted from "gatorgal" 1. What would you suggest to leads who are shorter than their follows? Because that technique isn't going to work with people who have a 3 or 4 inch height difference... is it?
I recommend that the lead jump up during the spin and the follow duck. ;)
j/k. No, for a 3-4" diff, I don't see the problem. For like a huge height difference he's going to have trouble getting his hand over her head in any event.
Quote
2. Also, maybe I'm misinterpreting it, but it reads like the lead is sort of "controlling" the speed of the spin in the above example. Now that would bother me a bit, because I like to play with the speed and duration of my spins. It seems like there's an option being taken away from the follow. Please discuss.
Yes, I think it should be possible for the lead to fully control the number/timing of spins. If I want you to do three spins, you should do three, dammit! ;) That said, I believe in giving follows lots of room to play... but this generally happens when time is more a luxury, as in an 8 count passing turn, or during a simple tuck turn. Just to be precise, in this context I'm thinking mostly of multiple spins which tend to be quick and require precise timing/footwork, vrs. passing turns or tuck turns which can last several beats and are open to tons of footwork/body motion. I don't think the ideal opportunity for a follow to play is in the middle of a series of spins.
And, there's also communication both ways... the follow can "ask" for a certain type/speed of spin by how she sets up for a pirouette and how she communicates that via the connection, for example... a la Virginie...
As a guy, what can I learn from following?
Hi there,
I'm a guy who has been (slowly, very slowly) learning to lead (Lindy Hop) for the past two-and-a-half years or so. I'm delightfully mediocre, and so I even surprised myself a bit in deciding to learn to follow. And tonight I took my first Paul and Sharon (level 1A) class as a follow.
I made a few interesting observations:
Most of the beginner male leads were quite friendly and some even a bit amused by my learning to follow, but at least one was decidedly uncomfortable about leading a guy. Better odds than I thought. Then again, this IS San Francisco :D
The transition was easier than I anticipated, at least for the comparatively-easy stuff that we did tonight (6 count basic, straightforward Charleston), and I was pleased that I was even able to chat a bit without "losing my place."
It's nice having a bit less pressure.
I wasn't terribly surprised when one of my leads (actually, a woman who's been following for several years) noted that I was a "definitely different" than the women she led in class. When briefly pressed for details, she noted my broader shoulders (duh), and also how I felt "heavier." Ack :(
And perhaps not coincidentally, this particular follow led me with a featherweight touch... an almost imperceptible lead for me, in fact.
So this raises a couple of questions:
1) For leads who've followed my path before (learning to follow) or knowledgeable follows out there, do you have any advice on how I can be "less heavy"?
2) Can I extrapolate info about follower's preferences from how they lead me? For example, can I assume the aforementioned female absolutely prefers a light lead when she's following (based upon how I felt her lead, not just what she said)?
3) Have other guys found that they can learn stuff when following... new moves, hints they can use in their own leading?
4) Do you have any other advice for what I should strongly concentrate on or pay attention to while I'm learning to follow?
I don't intend to move far up the ranks with this, at least class-wise (probably just 8 sessions, or two months worth of classes as a follow for now), because I'd prefer to focus on my lead skills over the long haul. But still, I'd really love to become a better follow, too... especially if I can somehow significantly improve my leading in the process :)
Thanks in advance for any encouragement or advice you can offer!
Yehoodi Featured Topics
Related Topics
Page(s): 1 2 3 Next > (65 items total, 30 per page)
As a lead, what can you learn by learning how to follow? ALOT
How to be a lighter follow? Some ideas: be responsible for your own weight, use less counterbalance, respond to leads more quickly, think of all those things that heavy follows do to you and try to figure out how not to do that when you dance, think about all the things that light follows do to you and figure out how to do that when you dance.
Followers preferances by the way they lead? Not necessarily. Many girls just have a lighter lead than men, part of it's a strength issue. Although, for many (myself included), we know what it's like to have our arm wrenched by an overly agressive lead- so we try not to do that. :wink:
Any other advice? Learn how to move like a follow. That doesn't mean figuring out how to swivel in a feminine way (although, you can if you want!). That means, don't just do what you think you're supposed to do- actually follow. So many of the guys that I've lead follow like leads, they do only what they think they're supposed to do and I can't get them to do anything else (like what I'm actually leading). This includes things like: turning yourself in a swingout, not keeping good frame, not listening to the lead for your weight shifts (ie. you continue to step step rock-step, even though you're being lead to step step step step), etc. Essentially, think of the things that follows do that you don't like, and try not to do that.
Learning the opposite role is great, in my opinion. It's a good way to learn what to do, or NOT to do in your primary role. You may realize that something you though was really cool hurts like a mofo when you're following it, or something you thought was kinda boring might feel really cool to a follow. I think it's a good way to learn to be a better social dancer, and you pick up on things in your own dancing that other people might not tell you. :roll:
It helps me get in touch with my feminine side.
You learn how many guys in Swing I get creeped out by dancing with another man.
We are the keepers of Funny, the Judges, the Whisperers. We are Superior Naysayers And Rebukers of Knavery. We are SNARK. - Boosh!
All of MsV's observations are good; I've been following for about 6 years (or 7, I forget), and leading for....4, I think.
Though some male follows are heavy, BTW, I find that more common with female follows (and it has nothing to do with their build or body size). But strength is an issue for me: I'm 5'7", but I weigh about 115, and also have had some shoulder injuries. There are follows I will only lead when there's a jam and it would be rude to not go there! (Because I sometimes find myself nursing a sore shoulder for a week after one dance!)
It sounds like you're getting a lot from this. Continue with it, and you'll see how it will strengthen your lead skills, too. Don't forget to use it socially once your class ends, either! :D
In my humble opinion, you should disabuse yourself of the notion of trying to "be light" altogether. Follows who are exceptionally light -- and by "light" in this context I mean they feel like a feather on the end of your hand -- actually tend to be difficult to lead. They tend to have two related problems: anticipating the lead (not waiting for the lead and being overly reactive) and getting ahead of the lead (timing wise... ie, their feet actually hit the floor before the leaders).
What I'm saying is that "being a good follow" is something independent of "being light." In fact, most great follows I know don't feel "light" at all; rather, you can fully feel their center and their bodyweight through the connection. Furthermore, they're always truly waiting for the lead, which means you really have to move them. Virginie talks about this a lot in her classes, about making the leads work to move them. It's a good sort of heaviness... a natural feeling of the follow's bodyweight.
So instead of "being light" I'd recommend focusing on two concepts: inertia and connection. To illustrate, imagine rolling a bowling ball from hand to hand on a table. The bowling ball displays two important behaviors: it rolls from hand to hand without stopping (inertia). Ie, you don't have to drag it constantly. And as you begin to catch it, it doesn't just suddenly reverse direction as your hand begins to make contact. Rather, its momentum continues into your hand where you can really feel the weight of the bowling ball. Hence, connection. And it waits for the lead. Mmmm.... booowling balls...
So if you dance with natural inertia, meaning you keep moving in the direction lead until given a lead otherwise, and you're always seeking out the connection with your partner, and you wait for the lead, you'll probably be light enough.
That said, everyone has a different default level of connection, and each dance requires a sort of mutual negotiation and compromise. With a female lead, the situation is problemmatic because the weight distribution is somewhat unnatural. Does the moon revolve around the earth or vice versa? In the natural scheme of things, the guy is like the earth, the follow like the moon, and it works well because the guy is indeed more massive. But if the situation is reversed, it's a bit unnatural, and then indeed you may have to work somewhat at "being light" in the way I just recommended against.
But, there are other reasons you may feel heavy. If you lack the inertia component of your dancing, you'll be heavy in the bad sort of way, because the lead will have to drag you through every step. If your frame is overly rigid this can tend to make you feel difficult to move. If you lack a certain flexibility in your body (most guys do), then some movements will feel a bit off and more difficult. If your spin technique is suboptimal you'll resist certain things... etc... etc...
Exactly. "Light" to me is not nonexistant...because, as stated above, anticipation is also not good. It's not following, it's back-leading... :)
"Light" to me means that yes, I can sense the follow (especially her/his center) but that I don't feel as though I'm hauling around a sack of potatoes (dead weight). The follow should be responsive.
What I have learned from following after leading for over three years and following for just over one year:
<
ul>[ :aab1fd008d]Too much counterbalance is a bad thing - The "sack-of-potatoes" weight when being a lead or a follow hurts either way... When I started following, not only did I pull back with a lot of counterbalance, but, I also pulled slightly downward... When I was made aware of my gargantuan weight, I was asked to move more weight over my own feet and to bend my knees a bit more... This translated into less counterbalance and a quicker level of responsiveness... This helped my lead by realizing that I did not need to "sit back" to provide a lot of counterbalance...[ :aab1fd008d]Act and react to moves in a timely fashion - When I started, I did not realize that there was so much involved to follow... I have learned to feel a lead, interpret where I was being moved to, and react to go in that direction... I have improved the clarity of my moves because I can appreciate the amount of time it takes for a follow to react to moves... I have also learned to adjust the strength/weight of my lead depending on who is following...[ :aab1fd008d]Tag team swing - I have learned to switch between a lead and follow and vice versa in the middle of a dance... This adds a bit more spontaneity to the dance because neither of us knows who will be leading at the next eight count...[/list:u:aab1fd008d]I will add more as I think of them... :D
John...
I hate to sound negative on this, but the main thing I learned from taking classes as a follower is what the followers have to put up with. It was eye-opening to say the least and, in some cases, painful. :-?
I'm a relatively small guy, 5'7" 135lb. When I was learning the quick stop some of the leads wrenched my arm and shoulder so hard that I dreaded "rotating" around to them again in the class. I can't imagine what the 100lb women were going through.
Besides learning the basics of following, the experience led me to form my 1 rule for swing dancing: Don't hurt your partner!!
--Jason
Don't worry, that guy will eventually become comfortable with your being the follow as long as he sees that you're serious and it's not a way for you to pick up on the guys. ;) Actually, your role as an experienced lead that they can comfortably approach with advice or questions will help in their attitude towards you. You'll become like a mentor or big brother to them.
Good. Getting the correct footwork is the first step. Har har. Wait 'til you get to the swingout in 1B!
I always say it's like not having to drive.
As has been expressed above, heavy and light really isn't the issue. Connection and feeling of body weight - no matter how heavy or light - is. You will become lighter, once you learn to control your center (i.e. balance, you clod!) and actually have a frame. A follower's frame, which is very different in some respects from a leader's frame.
Take smaller steps. If you make your weight transfers more incremental, then there's less interia to overcome when leading you. Close your eyes. This can help if you particularly cannot let go of your control. Learn the footwork really well, but don't be a slave to it. Do your own patterns on your own time - either when it's given to you or when you're leading. Build that follower's frame. Build that receiver that gets the leader's signals and follow only that.
Ah. that beggars the question on whether you know the difference in light or heavy leads? The answer is that there isn't - if you're leading from your body to hers! You're responsible for the "weight" that she "gives" you. I'm not saying you have to carry her weight...just lead enough to change its direction!
So if you're not really feeling the female leader's leads, then either she's not really leading YOU or you're not really connecting with her. Both are equally valid ways for the lead-follow relationship to break down. Or, both cases can be true, too. ;)
Sometimes there is a difference between wants and needs, so I wouldn't read too much into what she would prefer as a follower. Plus, individual differences in leading "weights" can vary, so what one leader would call a light follow, you might consider heavy. It's more like what she would prefer for her followers.
Yes. Although I personally like to concentrate on footwork and/or musicality while following, so it's more about how the leader leads me rather than what he leads me into that I pick up different ways to lead from being the follow.
Make your standard footwork automatic. Make your follower's frame automatic.
See this topic for a lively discussion and great ideas.
That's not negative, that's one of the main benefits! Followers appreciate leads who treat them gently. The best compliment I've ever received on the dance floor was "I feel totally safe dancing with you".
In some cases guys learning to follow may find they are actually treated more roughly than women. Maybe their leader thinks he needs to be rougher to prove his masculinity, or something silly like that.
1) Practice. Practice, practice, practice. Pay attention to the lead. Pay attention to the connection, both when leading and following. Follow the connection, not the person you're dancing with.
2) Not really. I followed a girl who was a pretty heavy lead, and who didn't like how I am a light follow. When I lead her, she was a rather light follow herself.
3) Definitely. Mainly, though, you learn connection stuff through following. However, if being shown a new move, it helps to follow it. It helps to learn what you need her to do more than it helps to learn what you need to do.
4) Try to remember the things you admire about good follows you've danced with, and try to emulate that. Try to avoid doing things you wish follows didn't do. Finally, communicate with leads. Dance with some experienced leads, and ask them for feedback on your follow.
I am so stealing this analogy!
I'm no expert... but here are my thoughts.
For the first couple months that I was dancing, I needed a strong lead in order to know what to do. But as I started to get more and more accustomed to following, I found it easier and easier to respond to lighter and lighter leads. I think it's a matter of muscle memory and once you get to the point where you don't have to think about it anymore, it's easier to relax and therefore easier to respond.
Now in terms of being a light or heavy follow, I try to match my partner's level of counterbalance. If I'm dancing with a strong lead, I'm likely to be a heavier follow than if I'm dancing with a light lead. It's all about taking responsibility for the majority of your weight, and giving just enough so that you feel a comfortable balance between you and your partner. And don't anticipate or resist, just wait until you feel the lead.
It will all come with time and practice. Congrats on learning to follow! I think that's a great idea. I'm trying to learn how to lead, myself.
I think I'm hearing you say you want to follow only to become a better leader. Which is way cool in my book. If this is true then I suggest you pay closest attention to connection and lead and follow techniques, instead of footwork or styling.
For instance, how much clarity from your leader does it take to put you in the right place? You're a beginning follower. If a leader can get you to do interesting things then this is a good leader. Pay attention to what that leader feels like and try to emulate that.
A lot of guys think more is called for to get a follower to do things. The truth is it's usually less. The fewer signals you give someone, the more likely they are to understand. So as you follow, figure out what is confusing from leaders, when strong is too strong, when light is too light. (Keeping in mind that every new follower should be a minor adjustment for a leader of course based on what she needs.)
Some people look great and feel like crap. As a follower you can now figure out what body movements might look cool but feel horrible to a partner. The best leaders out there feel so clear and easy but can still do crazy things with their bodies.
Andy Reid comes to mind in this instance. He gets knocked by a lot of the westie judges because his personal body movement looks too crazy for them (which is a whole other issue entirely). But I always watch the follower and know his lead is clear because she's always being put where she's supposed to be and never seemed to be pulled off or yanked. He understands the difference between personal body movement and lead/follow movement. Which in my book means he's achieved an even higher level than most leaders ever do.
As you begin to learn what followers feel you can refine your lead to be more clear, learn limits on either extreme of light and heavy, learn the difference between looking good and feeling good, and even what moves are more fun for the follower to be lead through.
Women who become leaders usually feel amazing and look really boring. This is because they know what it feels like and usually care most about that area. Becoming a follower can help you get a little more of that in your lead.
And when you get more of that women will line up to dance with you. Seriously! :wink:
I've loved this thread - great info, dug the bowling ball idea. But I hated the earth and moon thing because it makes it sound like 140lb guys dancing with 170lb girls is unnatural. I'm a follow who has danced with shorter, taller, smaller, larger, whatever. The size of the person doesn't affect whether the dance feels right or wrong. It's the ability of the lead to lead and my ability to follow. I could very well be talking out my azz, but it's just what I think.
I realize in retrospect that using the word "unnatural" could be construed as insulting, and I apologize if that's the case. I didn't mean it that way.
Typically, the lead moves a little less than the follow and covers less ground, as in a swingout, for example. And the lead to some extent, also initiates the follow's movement. So theoretically, the laws of physics would indicate that it's the heavier object that should move less and initiate the movement of the lighter object. For example, if the couple stood on ice, held hands, and pulled towards each other, the lightest of the two would move more than the heaviest. That's just how inertia works...
My theory is that in general the optimal situation is one in which you come as close to these physical laws as possible. Which is to say the same sort of "orbit" you trace in, say, a swingout matches that which would occur if you were floating in space rotating around each other through gravity alone. But I didn't mean to suggest that heavy lead/light follow is somehow the only viable partnership. It just means you'll need to adapt to your partner and change the way you move and counterbalance accordingly. At the other end of the spectrum, an extremely big lead with a tiny follow presents the opposite challenge. The lead will have to be careful not to overpower the follow such that she traces a comet's orbit. ;) And it's really just a theory... someone could probably show me ways it's incorrect.
I find that very often, how "heavy" or "light" someone feels doing lindy is not necessarily an indication of how heavy or light they actually are. This is because a lead isn't actually dragging a follow around, (s)he's just directing the motion. The follow is largely responsible for his/her own weight, counterbalance, and momentum.
HAHAH sooo true
I am constantly saying that the reason I dont really like to lead guys that much is cause they are heavy and too fast. My advise to you would be to RELAX and just stay on your own feet and listen to what the lead is saying. Dont be like "oh I know what this move is" and do it (or what you think it is). I think the biggest problem with new follows be it guys or girls is anticipating.
You will learn whether or not you actually know how to spin. And why "stirring the pot" is so evil.
Spuds and his son playing "DJ Hero 2" • FreePlay Dance Crew Performance at Dancing in the River City (video)
I admit that I'm overly sensitive to anything that says boys are this way and girls are that way. Residual effect of gender studies.
And I have to say that it's darn impressive to read about dancing and actually learn something. Obviously, I'm new to the Yehoodi thing.
Why is "stirring the pot" evil?
:o :spineyes: :green: :crash:
Interesting response. I take it to mean that you think that "stirring the pot" is unambiguously wrong and doesn't merit discussion. Well then, what would would you say to Peter Strom http://workshop.danandcaitlin.com/pgs/pg01.html who once stood on a mountain and sayethed something like, "Leads, do some of the work. Help the follow out. Don't just stand there flipping 2 fingers." (He was talking about a multiple turn.)
Holy Lindy, there's a ton of good info here!
It's gonna take a while for me to digest it all, and I'm sure after I practice some following (with my whopping two moves so far <g>) tomorrow night, I'll be back here with more observations and questions.
Thanks so much, all of you! This is an example of what makes Yehoodi so great :)
Try following that [bleep!]. You tell me how fun it is.
Spuds and his son playing "DJ Hero 2" • FreePlay Dance Crew Performance at Dancing in the River City (video)
No no no... that was an illustrated response to tell you why I think "stirring the pot" is evil. Or can be evil. Sometimes it's ok.
Re: stirring the pot... (not exactly sure what that means)
Perhaps someone should just create a separate thread on this, but in terms of spin technique, I don't believe the lead should simply hold his hand in one spot over the follow's head. I've been doing a lot of WCS lately, where multiple spins are a much larger component of the dance, and the techinque I've learned and generally see is for the lead to circle his hand over the follow's head roughly as if he were tracing a halo (with exact hand placement dependent on the direction of the spin.) The follow's hand basically stays in front of her head, not directly over it.
Along with that, however, the actual impetus for the spin that's generated by the leader isn't constant. In the case of a cha n turns, for example, there's sort of a slight pulse initiating the first half. In the latter half as the follow completes the turn, it's more like the lead is relaxing his hand/arm somewhat and letting his hand simply follow hers, rather than vice-versa. Difficult to articulate in print, easier to demonstrate...
Along similar lines, in many cases, the spin is generated from something other than the hand over the follow's head. Ie, the follow's momentum is driven by the other hand, say via her back, and the spin hand is mostly following through and adapting to the follow's momentum. For example, in an outside turn done in a swingout, if the lead rotates his body/shoulders 90 degrees on 5 and brings the follow with him (body lead), making her turn 90 degrees also, he's already setup the momentum for her spin, and his left hand basically just follows along with her, casting over her head on 6. There doesn't need to be a huge amount of pressure with the left hand.
If that sort of initiation of momentum doesn't occur, then yeah, it'll feel bad because the lead will be dragging the follow through the turn with his left arm. Perhaps this is what's being referred to by "stirring the pot..."?
Re: Learning from following
I think an important thing a lead can learn from following is the fact that sometimes what you "think" you lead doesn't always get communicated to your follow. There are some gentlemen (and ladies) who lead me in certain moves who are surprised to see me do something completely different than they wanted. Often times, the communication aka "connection" isn't there and there's a misinterpretation between what they want and what I do.
Hopefully I haven't completely confused you during the above explanation.
Re: "Stirring the Pot"
If you're talking about what I think you are, some folks may find that "evil" because "stirring" quickly becomes "cranking" and that is completely and totally uncomfortable and painful. You're not helping me turn, your just hurting me during my turn. One of my pet peeves...
Re: West Coast Turns
A question and a comment since I've started doing a bit of West Coast myself...
What would you suggest to leads who are shorter than their follows? Because that technique isn't going to work with people who have a 3 or 4 inch height difference... is it?
Also, maybe I'm misinterpreting it, but it reads like the lead is sort of "controlling" the speed of the spin in the above example. Now that would bother me a bit, because I like to play with the speed and duration of my spins. It seems like there's an option being taken away from the follow. Please discuss.
By the way, I love the analogies... I feel like I'm in my high school Physics class again!
Tina 8)
bluesSHOUT! 2010 is coming to Austin! http://www.bluesshout.com Favorite Tim Tebow-ism: Jesus opens presents on Tim Tebow's birthday. :)
That's how salsa works, too. In salsa, if you bring her hand straight over her head, "Lindy style," that's the lead for a drop, not a spin.
I recommend that the lead jump up during the spin and the follow duck. ;) j/k. No, for a 3-4" diff, I don't see the problem. For like a huge height difference he's going to have trouble getting his hand over her head in any event.
Yes, I think it should be possible for the lead to fully control the number/timing of spins. If I want you to do three spins, you should do three, dammit! ;) That said, I believe in giving follows lots of room to play... but this generally happens when time is more a luxury, as in an 8 count passing turn, or during a simple tuck turn. Just to be precise, in this context I'm thinking mostly of multiple spins which tend to be quick and require precise timing/footwork, vrs. passing turns or tuck turns which can last several beats and are open to tons of footwork/body motion. I don't think the ideal opportunity for a follow to play is in the middle of a series of spins.
And, there's also communication both ways... the follow can "ask" for a certain type/speed of spin by how she sets up for a pirouette and how she communicates that via the connection, for example... a la Virginie...
Page(s): 1 2 3 Next > (65 items total, 30 per page)
BBCode is no longer supported. Use Markdown instead: