Hi there, I'm a guy who has been (slowly, very slowly) learning to lead (Lindy Hop) for the past two-and-a-half years or so. I'm delightfully mediocre, and so I even surprised myself a bit in deciding to learn to follow. And tonight I took my first Paul and...
I'm assuming that "stirring the pot" is being blasted because of the degree to which it's usually taken, not because of the action itself.
It's great to stir the pot to turn your follow...leading so that her hand can easily stay in front of her face instead of the evil evil holding your hand above her head.
But you're not stirring a pot of oatmeal that's been cooking for 2 days. You're skimming the film off of a pot of hot chocolate. If you go too hard, you are most likely going to throw her off balance. Or if she doesn't have a strong frame, she's likely to let her hand get away from her.
Most leads lead turns too strongly. And they aren't good enough at it to get away with it. Peter Strom leads awesome crank turns, for example. But if you're not Peter Strom, you should think seriously about stopping the crank. Especially if you feel like you lose her center part of the way through the turn, or if your follow glares at you after every turn.
I think if every lead took a spinning/turning class as a follow, the world would be a much less cranky place.
Quoted from "gatorgal" 1. What would you suggest to leads who are shorter than their follows? Because that technique isn't going to work with people who have a 3 or 4 inch height difference... is it?
i had an excellent dance at camp hollywood with a lead who was easily a foot shorter than me. my legs were a bit tired from trying to stay down during the dance so that it would be easier for him to lead me, but other than that, everything worked out just fine. i can't speak to his particular spin technique in this case, because i'm not sure what he did, exactly....but i just thought i'd throw my .02 in.
Quote I take it to mean that you think that "stirring the pot" is unambiguously wrong and doesn't merit discussion. Well then, what would would you say to Peter Strom http://workshop.danandcaitlin.com/pgs/pg01.html who once stood on a mountain and sayethed something like, "Leads, do some of the work. Help the follow out. Don't just stand there flipping 2 fingers." (He was talking about a multiple turn).
Well, I don't know what context Peter was saying that in, but I am a follow who really hates "cranking" and I've danced a fair amount with Peter. And Peter does use a big motion (he's a big guy also), but what looks like "cranking" is more style than actually forcing the follow around which is what I strongly dislike about cranking (at least when I've been dancing with him). By far most of the help that Peter gives me when I dance with him is in the giving of a good prep into the turn/spin and a clear lead combined with his awareness of timing and the coordination of the partnership. With all of these things, I can stay connected to him, and he doesn't have to force me around by "cranking" and I don't have to "muscle" my way through the turn.
Yes to what Shana & elle said. From my vantage point, "cranking" does not equate to the lead's hand moving around the follow's head. I think a lot of it has to do with, as mentioned, the prep and the initiation of the spin. In the case of a pirouette type spin, I think most of the energy is created by the follow herself via the prep and initiation and the lead assists her as she spins but doesn't force her through it.
"Cranking" would occur in a case where the follow wasn't setup to spin or wasn't given any energy from the lead at the outset. The prep is the most important part of the spin... Well, that and the not falling down part of it.
i think you will probably learn the same two things women said their vaginas would tell men if they could talk (from the vagina monologues):
1. slower
2. softer
Arm leading a turn, or "cranking"/"stirring the pot"/"muscling" is bad.
However, body leading a turn (setup her momentum and lead the whole turn using your body as brace and frame of reference for her spin) is good. How about we call that "swirling the pot"?
Follows are generally supposed to hold back and wait for the lead, right? Well, learning how to wait as a follow has given me some new ideas about leading. Instead of rushing from this move, into that move, and now this one...sometimes now, I'll just lay low with the lead and wait to see what SHE wants to do. Following has taught me to give her more space to be creative...because often times she has better ideas than me! You don't have to do an official role switch in the middle of the dance to let her lead you. I've found that waiting for my follow helps make the dance more of a partnership than strict lead/follow.
Well, I danced about ten dances at the the 9:20 Special [Paul and Sharon weekly dance] as a follow, at least half with intermediate to advanced leads.
WOW!
This was so much fun! Unlike when I started learning to lead Lindy Hop (my first dance ever), this was not a painful, scary learning experience with a humungous learning curve, but rather just a rush of excitement and -- forgive the goofiness here -- frequent 'gee whiz'! I actually found myself giggling when an experienced female dancer lead me in some subtle movements just because I had never experienced that before from this side.
I can think of a few reasons why this was so much easier for me (at least in getting started) than my experience learning to lead:
- I already understand the basic counts of Lindy Hop.
- I have a general grasp of connection, lead, and follow issues.
- I already have learned to feel the (swing) music.
- I'm now friends with many of the folks I'm dancing with, so I feel comfortable with them.
In contrast, when I started to lead, I knew nobody, had never done any dancing, and had even a worse sense of balance than I have now. All I had going for me was my music background as a classical/jazz pianist, so at least I could feel the beats :)
Don't get me wrong. I know that I'm barely even a passable follow after one lesson and a few dances. There's a lot more for me to learn... not just about following, of course, but also about leading as it relates to my newfound following skills. I certainly don't want to dumbly imply that "Oh, following? That's SOOOO easy!" I'm just saying that at least it's already starting to click for me and I'm having a blast with it. Unlike when I first thought of following, I'm actually enjoying this for its own sake, and not JUST as a means to become a better leader.
---
Here were a few things that I learned through experience while following last Thursday (much of which, indeed, I was already told in one form or another here :)):
- Put my back solidly into the leader's hand.
- Don't frantically rush forward on a swingout... or ever!
- Respond to the momentum that my leaders give me. If he/she pulls me in faster, come in faster. If he/she nudges me forward, don't fling myself like a cannonball :)
- Relax!
- Make my weight changes definite. Don't position my weight between my feet (and if I understand correctly, this is some darn good advice for me as a leader as well, right?)
- Don't give my follow a limp/lazy right hand. I hate this as a lead, so I shouldn't do it as a follow. Meet my leader's compression and tension!
- Make an 'umbrella' when I spin, and never let my arm go behind me.
- Don't stop until I'm stopped; go as far as I can 'til I hit a 'wall', and then carefully sense the direction I'm being moved in.
- Feel directionality not only from my lead's body and left hand, but from his/her hand on my back, too.
- Don't anticipate!!! Hold back.
---
What I've learned that I can apply to leading so far:
Er... not so much! I mean, I'm so new as a follow that it's all I can do to concentrate on listening to my lead in the moment and making sure to carry my weight and maintain my balance, that I haven't even begun to be able to think... whoa... that's a cool move... how would I do that as a lead? Or, wow, I like this, or yuck, I don't like that.
Maybe in a few months :D
---
One quick question in the meantime: How do follows sense and respond to switching between six and eight counts?
In other words, how do I know when a leader is about to lead a six count vs. an eight count, so I can adjust my footwork accordingly? Or is it even important? Somehow, without even thinking about this, I managed to feel comfortable throughout most of my dances as a follow and didn't feel thrown off balance. Perhaps it's because my leads shifted my weight for me so I didn't even have to consciously plan my footwork?
SHOULD I be thinking about six count vs. eight count? And if so, when?
---
Anyway, I just want to give major thanks to all of you who have offered support and great info here... and even to some of you who have helped me in person!
Keep the posts coming; I'm directing others here for info and inspiration :)
dont think. if you are waiting for the lead and gathering your weight on one foot or another, it will just happen. often patterns might end up being 10 or 12 counts.
for the future, not really now while you are learning: on somethings like side passes and open tuck turns you have oppertunity to play with the counts.
Ack! This is what happens when I go for long stretches and guiltily don't keep up with Yehoodi. I shoulda guessed that what I was experiencing as a guy follow wasn't all that much different from what female follows face when they're learning!
Anyway, thanks so much for the pointer to that interesting thread, HoosierDaddy, and thank you, too, Devona for the 6/8 count thoughts :)
- Adam, also an honorary Hoosier (Indiana University, Bloomington -- law and business schools, '98!)
Quote By far most of the help that Peter gives me when I dance with him is in the giving of a good prep into the turn/spin and a clear lead combined with his awareness of timing and the coordination of the partnership. With all of these things, I can stay connected to him, and he doesn't have to force me around by "cranking" and I don't have to "muscle" my way through the turn.
This is so, so true.....but happens so, so seldom. :(
And BTW, Phlurg is right on with all his comments and suggestions.
Quoted from "gatorgal" 1. What would you suggest to leads who are shorter than their follows?
Only the obvious (stay as close as possible and stand up straight).
Quote Because that technique isn't going to work with people who have a 3 or 4 inch height difference... is it?
Some things just aren't doable if the height difference is too large in either direction. For example, I'm 6'3" and consequently am not going to be doing barrel rolls with a 5' partner, or much of anything else involving going under my own arm while staying attached to the follow.
Quoted from "ThatAdamGuy" One quick question in the meantime: How do follows sense and respond to switching between six and eight counts?
In other words, how do I know when a leader is about to lead a six count vs. an eight count, so I can adjust my footwork accordingly? Or is it even important? Somehow, without even thinking about this, I managed to feel comfortable throughout most of my dances as a follow and didn't feel thrown off balance. Perhaps it's because my leads shifted my weight for me so I didn't even have to consciously plan my footwork?
SHOULD I be thinking about six count vs. eight count? And if so, when?
No and yes.
No: You should be lead into the patterns. Never count steps while you're following! That makes you a slave to patterns you already learned which closes you to new patterns that you can be easily led into.
Yes: Sometimes you do have a say in whether to stretch a nominally 6 count move into an 8 as the follow. (i.e. the relaxed tuck turn) And, as you know as a lead, you can choose to lead the counts on certain patterns or not, depending on how you "frame" the pattern. So there is a certain point in the music when the lead will start leading a different pattern count, if the leader is with the music. The body lead cues will clue you in. Generally, this happens by count 5 of the 8, you will know that something is up!
Quoted from "ThatAdamGuy" One quick question in the meantime: How do follows sense and respond to switching between six and eight counts?
In other words, how do I know when a leader is about to lead a six count vs. an eight count, so I can adjust my footwork accordingly? Or is it even important? Somehow, without even thinking about this, I managed to feel comfortable throughout most of my dances as a follow and didn't feel thrown off balance. Perhaps it's because my leads shifted my weight for me so I didn't even have to consciously plan my footwork?
SHOULD I be thinking about six count vs. eight count? And if so, when?
---
Well, all I can say from my point of view as a follow, is that I, personally, don't think about six count vs. eight count. I don't try to think about much of anything in the midst of dancing unless I'm actively working on something at the time. I personally find that if I think too much as a follow, bad things happen.
And I definitely don't try to think too mcuh about six v eight. As Devona noted, once you start dancing with truly experienced dancers, you're going to be getting into 10, 12, 14... count phrases. And if you get caught up in 6 and 8 counts, it ain't gonna work.
The one thing I do try to do is maintain connection so I can "read" the leader's weight changes. If you both maintain connection, and make committed changes of weight, you will be able to feel where each are physically and in the phrase which you'll need in order to "correct" your footwork if you end up getting on the "wrong" foot, or for the leader to come up with an appropriate exit out of something if you end up in something that "wrongfoots" you. Also, the leader may change his mind in the midst of something, and or you may uh... hijack the lead (not that I would ever do anything like that). ;)
Ok I have to inject here that when cranking or stirring the pot please PLEASE don t bring the hand all the way down to the waist and then back up for another spin especially if you are trying to get two spins in where one spin would work!!!!
Based on some exercises I did in a workshop this weekend, it came to my attention that many leads do not know how to respond to their follow. This is a critical skill not only for obvious things like musicality and allowing the follow some play room, but also for making the whole dance run smoothly and comfortably without a glitch. A lead who knows how to respond to his follow is guaranteed to be a favourite. Following will undoubtably help you do that.
Quoted from "bryn" Based on some exercises I did in a workshop this weekend, it came to my attention that many leads do not know how to respond to their follow.
I am curious as to what you have in mind in terms of "responding" to a follow and if you can provide any examples. Right away, I would think of things such as sensing the way that the follow moves, how much counterbalance/compression she offers, possibly mirroring some of her expression, and allowing her the freedom to hijack or extend a spin, etc. Though I suspect there's likely more to it (perhaps I would know if I followed more often).
I am floored by this thread. I can't believe how helpful and insightful it's proven. So much so that starting with tomorrow's dance, I'm planning on learning to follow.
This is actually something which helped me learn to follow ...
I was a terrible lead, musicality-wise. It was likely enough that I would assume any follow I danced with would be more musical than me, more creative with that musicality, and look better at it, too. So, as a lead, I learned to "half-follow" while leading, responding to stuff I get from her through the connection. This allowed me to "cheat" by following what my follower did, with respect to musicality. It also allowed me to dance with a wider variety of follows, because I would adapt my lead to whatever sort of style she seemed to dance best.
This meant when I learned how to follow (just for fun, mainly), a lot of that I had already learned. Of course, the two compliment each other, and I'm better at both now for having done both ....
i know a particular follow that wanted and is now beginning to learn, how to lead because she wants to feel what a good follow feels like and learn from leading other people more about following.
when i first started learning how to lead, i couldnt believe how much light it put on following, on follows bad habits and good habits, cool things to do and the actual mechanics behind the dance made so much more sense!
Quoted from "LindyComic" I am floored by this thread. I can't believe how helpful and insightful it's proven. So much so that starting with tomorrow's dance, I'm planning on learning to follow.
Thanks for the inspiration.
I feel the same way... I'm starting to think about learning how to lead. I'm still too much of a chicken though... :(
Just thought I'd offer a brief update here on my following...
- It's still a lot of fun. Really a rush! Kinda like being on a rollercoaster with my eyes closed :D
- I really do find that when I think less, I follow better. My feet eventually work themselves out for the most part.
- Texas tommy's are hard, even with experienced leads. For some reason, this move just doesn't feel intuitive to me.
- No one's tried to lead me in tandem charleston yet, but then again, that's not so common on the dance floor around here anyway.
- My biggest struggle has been to avoid anticipating, especially in lessons. I got a friendly rebuke about this from a lead in a class and it stung -- it reminded me of how much I hate when follows do this to ME! For this reason, I often wish that instructors would separate out the leads and follows, teach the leads some steps, teach the follows some related styling (but not what the leads'd be leading), put them together and see how things go :). Then the leads really WOULD have to lead and the follows would indeed have to truly follow.
- I've learned just how many women in my scene are incredible leads. Wow! Especially humbling was when a woman successfully led me in a move we both learned in a workshop that evening, even after I had been unable to lead it the entire night!
- Another thing that is really challenging me is to keep my feet under my center. This, then, reminds me that I also need to be concentrating on this with my leading. It's just more evident when I follow.
- As a follow, I notice floors more... when they're sticky, when they're slidey, and so on. With the latter, it's sometimes difficult to control my spins, and I often find myself over-rotating.
- Speaking of over-rotating, Paul -- bless his no-nonsense heart -- goodnaturedly teased me about having "oil in my hips." I was overrotating when guys were tuck turning me and such... again, I think, due to me not keeping my feet squarely under me.
- And on a related note, following has accentuated the issue that I still really need to work on, for lack of a better term I can think of, body control. While I can swivel nicely and rotate my legs independent of my upper body, it seems that it's typically more important for follows to have connectedness... matching shoulders to arms to torso to legs to feet. In contrast, when leaders are doing kickups with me and such, I find that my torso is often a touch behind my legs, leading to not only an awkward look, but also some difficulty for my leader in leading me -- especially with fast moves, because some parts of my body are behind other parts. Again, this is an excellent lesson for me in leading as well, making sure my body moves as a whole.
- For the first time in taking a level 2 lesson as a follow, I found that I was FINALLY able to apply a move I learned not only to my following, but to my leading as well! So eventually, I really may be able to get nearly "double" out of each class when I take it as a follow :D
Whew! Well, I guess that's enough observations for now. And once again, to any leads who are thinking about following... definitely give it a try! It's fun, and I think in the long run, it really will help our leading :)
I'm still hesitant to often ask guys or advanced leads of either gender to lead me because I figure:
- for non-seasoned dancers, it might freak 'em out
- they'd rather dance with a female follow
- they'd prefer to dance with a follow who doesn't still largely suck
Luckily, though, I've gotten some ego boosts from a few guys who've said, amazed, that I follow better than many "real" follows they know, and a couple of women who commented that I was really fun to lead. So I'll stick with it and get braver :)
Quoted from "ThatAdamGuy" You're doin' better than I am! I'm still hesitant to often ask guys or advanced leads of either gender to lead me because I figure:
[ :8851af9d01]for non-seasoned dancers, it might freak 'em out[ :8851af9d01]they'd rather dance with a female follow[ :8851af9d01]they'd prefer to dance with a follow who doesn't still largely suck[/list:u:8851af9d01]Luckily, though, I've gotten some ego boosts from a few guys who've said, amazed, that I follow better than many "real" follows they know, and a couple of women who commented that I was really fun to lead. So I'll stick with it and get braver :)
Way to go! But, I think there are differences with a lady leading as opposed to a gentleman following... When two guys dance, it is almost swing's version of one's upmanship... See if you can follow this! See if you can lead that! But, to address your points:
[ :8851af9d01]I have gotten stares from dancing with another guy, especially when there are some people that do not understand swing dancing, leading, and following...[ :8851af9d01]That could be the case for the most part... I do not actively ask any one particular lead more than once on any given night... This is especially the case when our local scene is already follow heavy...[ :8851af9d01]I got that the first couple of months that I was trying to follow... I am continually trying to work on it to get better...[/list:u:8851af9d01]Mind you, I am starting to get more and more of those "Wow, you CAN follow..." comments... :D Then, they start leading more difficult moves... ;)
It took me quite some time to find this thread. Anyways, do selfish leads translate into selfish follows? I danced with this one guy at DLX and we switched off leading and following. Quite frankly, his follow sucked because he kept hijacking it, extending foot work, took me off balance, etc. I asked a follow who has danced with him before and she said it's probably because he's a selfish lead.
Where do guys get the idea that if they're a good lead, they can try all this other crap when following? Follows tend to be smarter than this dude, whether they're switching roles or not. Key advice to guys attempting to follow... listen to the lead, not your ego.
-
Lindy:
Swing Talk
- 10/8/03 12:00 am by ThatAdamGuy
- 24746 views
Hi there, I'm a guy who has been (slowly, very slowly) learning to lead (Lindy Hop) for the past two-and-a-half years or so. I'm delightfully mediocre, and so I even surprised myself a bit in deciding to learn to follow. And tonight I took my first Paul and...Page(s): < Previous 1 2 3 Next > (65 items total)
Shanabanana
I'm assuming that "stirring the pot" is being blasted because of the degree to which it's usually taken, not because of the action itself.
It's great to stir the pot to turn your follow...leading so that her hand can easily stay in front of her face instead of the evil evil holding your hand above her head.
But you're not stirring a pot of oatmeal that's been cooking for 2 days. You're skimming the film off of a pot of hot chocolate. If you go too hard, you are most likely going to throw her off balance. Or if she doesn't have a strong frame, she's likely to let her hand get away from her.
Most leads lead turns too strongly. And they aren't good enough at it to get away with it. Peter Strom leads awesome crank turns, for example. But if you're not Peter Strom, you should think seriously about stopping the crank. Especially if you feel like you lose her center part of the way through the turn, or if your follow glares at you after every turn.
I think if every lead took a spinning/turning class as a follow, the world would be a much less cranky place.
VLG
[quote="Phlurg"]
i had an excellent dance at camp hollywood with a lead who was easily a foot shorter than me. my legs were a bit tired from trying to stay down during the dance so that it would be easier for him to lead me, but other than that, everything worked out just fine. i can't speak to his particular spin technique in this case, because i'm not sure what he did, exactly....but i just thought i'd throw my .02 in.
elle
Well, I don't know what context Peter was saying that in, but I am a follow who really hates "cranking" and I've danced a fair amount with Peter. And Peter does use a big motion (he's a big guy also), but what looks like "cranking" is more style than actually forcing the follow around which is what I strongly dislike about cranking (at least when I've been dancing with him). By far most of the help that Peter gives me when I dance with him is in the giving of a good prep into the turn/spin and a clear lead combined with his awareness of timing and the coordination of the partnership. With all of these things, I can stay connected to him, and he doesn't have to force me around by "cranking" and I don't have to "muscle" my way through the turn.
Phlurg
Yes to what Shana & elle said. From my vantage point, "cranking" does not equate to the lead's hand moving around the follow's head. I think a lot of it has to do with, as mentioned, the prep and the initiation of the spin. In the case of a pirouette type spin, I think most of the energy is created by the follow herself via the prep and initiation and the lead assists her as she spins but doesn't force her through it.
"Cranking" would occur in a case where the follow wasn't setup to spin or wasn't given any energy from the lead at the outset. The prep is the most important part of the spin... Well, that and the not falling down part of it.
smunky
i think you will probably learn the same two things women said their vaginas would tell men if they could talk (from the vagina monologues):
1. slower
2. softer
LindySk8er
Well, duh!
Arm leading a turn, or "cranking"/"stirring the pot"/"muscling" is bad.
However, body leading a turn (setup her momentum and lead the whole turn using your body as brace and frame of reference for her spin) is good. How about we call that "swirling the pot"?
NateDiggity
Follows are generally supposed to hold back and wait for the lead, right? Well, learning how to wait as a follow has given me some new ideas about leading. Instead of rushing from this move, into that move, and now this one...sometimes now, I'll just lay low with the lead and wait to see what SHE wants to do. Following has taught me to give her more space to be creative...because often times she has better ideas than me! You don't have to do an official role switch in the middle of the dance to let her lead you. I've found that waiting for my follow helps make the dance more of a partnership than strict lead/follow.
- n
gatorgal
Phlurg - Thanks for the analysis as usual.
Good points all on the "swirling" vs. "cranking" issue.
Tina 8)
bluesSHOUT! 2010 is coming to Austin!
http://www.bluesshout.com
Favorite Tim Tebow-ism: Jesus opens presents on Tim Tebow's birthday. :)
ThatAdamGuy
Well, I danced about ten dances at the the 9:20 Special [Paul and Sharon weekly dance] as a follow, at least half with intermediate to advanced leads.
WOW!
This was so much fun! Unlike when I started learning to lead Lindy Hop (my first dance ever), this was not a painful, scary learning experience with a humungous learning curve, but rather just a rush of excitement and -- forgive the goofiness here -- frequent 'gee whiz'! I actually found myself giggling when an experienced female dancer lead me in some subtle movements just because I had never experienced that before from this side.
I can think of a few reasons why this was so much easier for me (at least in getting started) than my experience learning to lead:
- I already understand the basic counts of Lindy Hop.
- I have a general grasp of connection, lead, and follow issues.
- I already have learned to feel the (swing) music.
- I'm now friends with many of the folks I'm dancing with, so I feel comfortable with them.
In contrast, when I started to lead, I knew nobody, had never done any dancing, and had even a worse sense of balance than I have now. All I had going for me was my music background as a classical/jazz pianist, so at least I could feel the beats :)
Don't get me wrong. I know that I'm barely even a passable follow after one lesson and a few dances. There's a lot more for me to learn... not just about following, of course, but also about leading as it relates to my newfound following skills. I certainly don't want to dumbly imply that "Oh, following? That's SOOOO easy!" I'm just saying that at least it's already starting to click for me and I'm having a blast with it. Unlike when I first thought of following, I'm actually enjoying this for its own sake, and not JUST as a means to become a better leader.
---
Here were a few things that I learned through experience while following last Thursday (much of which, indeed, I was already told in one form or another here :)):
- Put my back solidly into the leader's hand.
- Don't frantically rush forward on a swingout... or ever!
- Respond to the momentum that my leaders give me. If he/she pulls me in faster, come in faster. If he/she nudges me forward, don't fling myself like a cannonball :)
- Relax!
- Make my weight changes definite. Don't position my weight between my feet (and if I understand correctly, this is some darn good advice for me as a leader as well, right?)
- Don't give my follow a limp/lazy right hand. I hate this as a lead, so I shouldn't do it as a follow. Meet my leader's compression and tension!
- Make an 'umbrella' when I spin, and never let my arm go behind me.
- Don't stop until I'm stopped; go as far as I can 'til I hit a 'wall', and then carefully sense the direction I'm being moved in.
- Feel directionality not only from my lead's body and left hand, but from his/her hand on my back, too.
- Don't anticipate!!! Hold back.
---
What I've learned that I can apply to leading so far:
Er... not so much! I mean, I'm so new as a follow that it's all I can do to concentrate on listening to my lead in the moment and making sure to carry my weight and maintain my balance, that I haven't even begun to be able to think... whoa... that's a cool move... how would I do that as a lead? Or, wow, I like this, or yuck, I don't like that.
Maybe in a few months :D
---
One quick question in the meantime: How do follows sense and respond to switching between six and eight counts?
In other words, how do I know when a leader is about to lead a six count vs. an eight count, so I can adjust my footwork accordingly? Or is it even important? Somehow, without even thinking about this, I managed to feel comfortable throughout most of my dances as a follow and didn't feel thrown off balance. Perhaps it's because my leads shifted my weight for me so I didn't even have to consciously plan my footwork?
SHOULD I be thinking about six count vs. eight count? And if so, when?
---
Anyway, I just want to give major thanks to all of you who have offered support and great info here... and even to some of you who have helped me in person!
Keep the posts coming; I'm directing others here for info and inspiration :)
mme cartier
6 count/8 count.
dont think. if you are waiting for the lead and gathering your weight on one foot or another, it will just happen. often patterns might end up being 10 or 12 counts.
for the future, not really now while you are learning: on somethings like side passes and open tuck turns you have oppertunity to play with the counts.
HoosierDaddy
6 vs. 8 ct
http://www.yehoodi.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=62118
ThatAdamGuy
Ack! This is what happens when I go for long stretches and guiltily don't keep up with Yehoodi. I shoulda guessed that what I was experiencing as a guy follow wasn't all that much different from what female follows face when they're learning!
Anyway, thanks so much for the pointer to that interesting thread, HoosierDaddy, and thank you, too, Devona for the 6/8 count thoughts :)
- Adam, also an honorary Hoosier (Indiana University, Bloomington -- law and business schools, '98!)
Luvs2Lindy
[quote="elle"]
This is so, so true.....but happens so, so seldom. :(
And BTW, Phlurg is right on with all his comments and suggestions.
Leaders take note!
jpl
Only the obvious (stay as close as possible and stand up straight).
Some things just aren't doable if the height difference is too large in either direction. For example, I'm 6'3" and consequently am not going to be doing barrel rolls with a 5' partner, or much of anything else involving going under my own arm while staying attached to the follow.
LindySk8er
No and yes.
No: You should be lead into the patterns. Never count steps while you're following! That makes you a slave to patterns you already learned which closes you to new patterns that you can be easily led into.
Yes: Sometimes you do have a say in whether to stretch a nominally 6 count move into an 8 as the follow. (i.e. the relaxed tuck turn) And, as you know as a lead, you can choose to lead the counts on certain patterns or not, depending on how you "frame" the pattern. So there is a certain point in the music when the lead will start leading a different pattern count, if the leader is with the music. The body lead cues will clue you in. Generally, this happens by count 5 of the 8, you will know that something is up!
elle
Well, all I can say from my point of view as a follow, is that I, personally, don't think about six count vs. eight count. I don't try to think about much of anything in the midst of dancing unless I'm actively working on something at the time. I personally find that if I think too much as a follow, bad things happen.
And I definitely don't try to think too mcuh about six v eight. As Devona noted, once you start dancing with truly experienced dancers, you're going to be getting into 10, 12, 14... count phrases. And if you get caught up in 6 and 8 counts, it ain't gonna work.
The one thing I do try to do is maintain connection so I can "read" the leader's weight changes. If you both maintain connection, and make committed changes of weight, you will be able to feel where each are physically and in the phrase which you'll need in order to "correct" your footwork if you end up getting on the "wrong" foot, or for the leader to come up with an appropriate exit out of something if you end up in something that "wrongfoots" you. Also, the leader may change his mind in the midst of something, and or you may uh... hijack the lead (not that I would ever do anything like that). ;)
Promise
Ok I have to inject here that when cranking or stirring the pot please PLEASE don t bring the hand all the way down to the waist and then back up for another spin especially if you are trying to get two spins in where one spin would work!!!!
bryn
Based on some exercises I did in a workshop this weekend, it came to my attention that many leads do not know how to respond to their follow. This is a critical skill not only for obvious things like musicality and allowing the follow some play room, but also for making the whole dance run smoothly and comfortably without a glitch. A lead who knows how to respond to his follow is guaranteed to be a favourite. Following will undoubtably help you do that.
vitrified
I am curious as to what you have in mind in terms of "responding" to a follow and if you can provide any examples. Right away, I would think of things such as sensing the way that the follow moves, how much counterbalance/compression she offers, possibly mirroring some of her expression, and allowing her the freedom to hijack or extend a spin, etc. Though I suspect there's likely more to it (perhaps I would know if I followed more often).
LindyComic
I am floored by this thread. I can't believe how helpful and insightful it's proven. So much so that starting with tomorrow's dance, I'm planning on learning to follow.
Thanks for the inspiration.
voilsb
This is actually something which helped me learn to follow ...
I was a terrible lead, musicality-wise. It was likely enough that I would assume any follow I danced with would be more musical than me, more creative with that musicality, and look better at it, too. So, as a lead, I learned to "half-follow" while leading, responding to stuff I get from her through the connection. This allowed me to "cheat" by following what my follower did, with respect to musicality. It also allowed me to dance with a wider variety of follows, because I would adapt my lead to whatever sort of style she seemed to dance best.
This meant when I learned how to follow (just for fun, mainly), a lot of that I had already learned. Of course, the two compliment each other, and I'm better at both now for having done both ....
JiveWithMe
i know a particular follow that wanted and is now beginning to learn, how to lead because she wants to feel what a good follow feels like and learn from leading other people more about following.
when i first started learning how to lead, i couldnt believe how much light it put on following, on follows bad habits and good habits, cool things to do and the actual mechanics behind the dance made so much more sense!
gatorgal
I feel the same way... I'm starting to think about learning how to lead. I'm still too much of a chicken though... :(
Tina 8)
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LindySk8er
Did you read JustJenn's Follow Love thread?
Great tips about following!
ThatAdamGuy
Wow, really good stuff indeed! Thanks for pointing out that thread! :)
ThatAdamGuy
Just thought I'd offer a brief update here on my following...
- It's still a lot of fun. Really a rush! Kinda like being on a rollercoaster with my eyes closed :D
- I really do find that when I think less, I follow better. My feet eventually work themselves out for the most part.
- Texas tommy's are hard, even with experienced leads. For some reason, this move just doesn't feel intuitive to me.
- No one's tried to lead me in tandem charleston yet, but then again, that's not so common on the dance floor around here anyway.
- My biggest struggle has been to avoid anticipating, especially in lessons. I got a friendly rebuke about this from a lead in a class and it stung -- it reminded me of how much I hate when follows do this to ME! For this reason, I often wish that instructors would separate out the leads and follows, teach the leads some steps, teach the follows some related styling (but not what the leads'd be leading), put them together and see how things go :). Then the leads really WOULD have to lead and the follows would indeed have to truly follow.
- I've learned just how many women in my scene are incredible leads. Wow! Especially humbling was when a woman successfully led me in a move we both learned in a workshop that evening, even after I had been unable to lead it the entire night!
- Another thing that is really challenging me is to keep my feet under my center. This, then, reminds me that I also need to be concentrating on this with my leading. It's just more evident when I follow.
- As a follow, I notice floors more... when they're sticky, when they're slidey, and so on. With the latter, it's sometimes difficult to control my spins, and I often find myself over-rotating.
- Speaking of over-rotating, Paul -- bless his no-nonsense heart -- goodnaturedly teased me about having "oil in my hips." I was overrotating when guys were tuck turning me and such... again, I think, due to me not keeping my feet squarely under me.
- And on a related note, following has accentuated the issue that I still really need to work on, for lack of a better term I can think of, body control. While I can swivel nicely and rotate my legs independent of my upper body, it seems that it's typically more important for follows to have connectedness... matching shoulders to arms to torso to legs to feet. In contrast, when leaders are doing kickups with me and such, I find that my torso is often a touch behind my legs, leading to not only an awkward look, but also some difficulty for my leader in leading me -- especially with fast moves, because some parts of my body are behind other parts. Again, this is an excellent lesson for me in leading as well, making sure my body moves as a whole.
- For the first time in taking a level 2 lesson as a follow, I found that I was FINALLY able to apply a move I learned not only to my following, but to my leading as well! So eventually, I really may be able to get nearly "double" out of each class when I take it as a follow :D
Whew! Well, I guess that's enough observations for now. And once again, to any leads who are thinking about following... definitely give it a try! It's fun, and I think in the long run, it really will help our leading :)
WindsorSwingKid
One minor thing that I have learned from following: Names of some of the out of town leads a bit better... ;)
John...
ThatAdamGuy
You're doin' better than I am!
I'm still hesitant to often ask guys or advanced leads of either gender to lead me because I figure:
- for non-seasoned dancers, it might freak 'em out
- they'd rather dance with a female follow
- they'd prefer to dance with a follow who doesn't still largely suck
Luckily, though, I've gotten some ego boosts from a few guys who've said, amazed, that I follow better than many "real" follows they know, and a couple of women who commented that I was really fun to lead. So I'll stick with it and get braver :)
WindsorSwingKid
[ :8851af9d01]I have gotten stares from dancing with another guy, especially when there are some people that do not understand swing dancing, leading, and following...[ :8851af9d01]That could be the case for the most part... I do not actively ask any one particular lead more than once on any given night... This is especially the case when our local scene is already follow heavy...[ :8851af9d01]I got that the first couple of months that I was trying to follow... I am continually trying to work on it to get better...[/list:u:8851af9d01]Mind you, I am starting to get more and more of those "Wow, you CAN follow..." comments... :D Then, they start leading more difficult moves... ;)
John...
swinginstyle
WARNING: Rant Ahead
It took me quite some time to find this thread. Anyways, do selfish leads translate into selfish follows? I danced with this one guy at DLX and we switched off leading and following. Quite frankly, his follow sucked because he kept hijacking it, extending foot work, took me off balance, etc. I asked a follow who has danced with him before and she said it's probably because he's a selfish lead.
Where do guys get the idea that if they're a good lead, they can try all this other crap when following? Follows tend to be smarter than this dude, whether they're switching roles or not. Key advice to guys attempting to follow... listen to the lead, not your ego.
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