:o :o :o :o :pukeymae:

I have to admit Kalman, you do know how to stir things up. ;)

But I agree that the shirts off for the b-day jam was a bit much, but you should take it too seriously. Just like this thread.

D2k2 -

I left. I was DJing. I left that event, drove a young lady to the afterhours, said my goodbyes and got the hell out of town. A number of other Dallas peeps did as well. Some left before that.

For the next week, the talk is Dallas was about all the sh!t that happened in Tulsa. A solid week, maybe more. Not about how good Back Pocket sounded or how the after-hours venue kicked giant monster ass - it was about how carnal the exchange was. Not sensuous, not burlesque - carnal. A number of people said they would not go to a 2004 exchange in Tulsa.

Maybe you think those people prudes, but they're not by any stretch of the imagination. What they are are paying customers, people that expected to come to Tulsa, support the scene and have a good time. What they got was a condensed version of spring break.

Kalman

Quoted from "Captain Morgan"
I have to admit Kalman, you do know how to stir things up. ;) But I agree that the shirts off for the b-day jam was a bit much, but you should take it too seriously. Just like this thread.

oh please, people wear less at afternoon events at the beach.

Quoted from "mousethief"
D2k2 - I left. I was DJing. I left that event, drove a young lady to the afterhours, said my goodbyes and got the hell out of town. A number of other Dallas peeps did as well. Some left before that. For the next week, the talk is Dallas was about all the sh!t that happened in Tulsa. A solid week, maybe more. Not about how good Back Pocket sounded or how the after-hours venue kicked giant monster ass - it was about how carnal the exchange was. Not sensuous, not burlesque - carnal. A number of people said they would not go to a 2004 exchange in Tulsa. Maybe you think those people prudes, but they're not by any stretch of the imagination. What they are are paying customers, people that expected to come to Tulsa, support the scene and have a good time. What they got was a condensed version of spring break. Kalman

im not saying that anyone is a prude and im talking specificaly about the shirtless bday jam, which has been the only thing that you have specifically brought up. if you want to discuss the event as a whole we can do that. a general answer to your general statement of the event is this: lolx last year was advertized as an exchange of debotchery. (i understand it is not advertized as such for the coming year.) if you dont want to dance to alot of blues music dont go to stlbx, if you dont want to dance at 200bpms at 2am, dont go to dclx, if you think debatchery is distastful dont go to an event that advertizes as such.

So who is an X-Rated Swinger? :wink:

Quoted from "rubymae"
That aside, I still fail to see how this thread is any different than any of the other gazillion (yes, I counted) threads where blues v. grinding is discussed. If enough people dislike what is happening at afterhours, the afterhours will not get good attendence and those events will either change to bring back patronage, limp along with the supporters they retain, or alternative afterhours events will crop up as groups of people look for something else to do besides binge drinking and grinding.

Why let it take so long to work through? By this logic, if the event happens in 2003, it would be affected in 2004, and then nothing would get fixed until 2005. In the meantime, several people will lose or waste money. Why not have these discussions so the concerns can be addressed and changes made for the 2004 edition? Even if the threads do seem repetitive, the points of view are still valid to express.

Sh t up Kalman. If the girls want to run around topless, let them. Who cares. I'm curious what line has been crossed as we are starting to plan Matt Bday party next month. We would hate to offend you my friend.

Todd

Quoted from "mousethief"
I'm all for people wanting to do whatever the hell they want. But when I have to watch a bunch of topless dancers cavort around the floor, then they've crossed the line. We should not tolerate it - I don't give a goddamn if they are the organizers. I don't mind people making out, it's making a feature of the event that I have issues with. Kalman

WheresMyGravy and Alligator, fantastic posts. You guys are my heros!

I've stayed out of this for for the most part, for several reasons. First off, I haven't been out and about blues dancing recently, so it's hard for me to comment on the state of blules elsewhere, though it sounds like it still maintains the mixed reputation it has always had. Second, I have ranted blues to death in the past. My opinions are well documented on Yehoodi.

But a couple of things occur to me that might be of relevence here.

To me:

Blues is about connection, to the music, and to your partner. That connection takes many different forms and sexy and sensual are only two of many. Connection is a way in which you communicate with your partner, connection can take on other aspects, you can have a "Zen" dance with a feeling of total connection, but at its most basic, connection is simply the way you communicate with your partner. Connection is not in and of itself, sexy. Like most things, it's what you do with it that counts.

Blues is about boundaries. Sometimes you dance well back from them, sometimes you dance along that line, sometimes you dip a toe or two across it, and every now and then, with the right person, you selectively pick the right ones to dance boldly across. Personally, I find the dance to be most interesting when you dance up to the line but never cross it. BUT, especially when dancing with someone new, I never go into the dance expecting anything other than a fun, slow, hopefully connected, dance. There are only a few people that I dance full-out blues with, and by full-out, I do not mean sexy, necessarily. Dancing full-out means that I know exactly where the boundaries are with this person, and I can dance without concern that I might cross one accidentally.

Blues is a dance between you and your partner...however, as someone who has, in fact, danced full out blues in front of his parents and grandfather, I can assure you that it doesn't have to be 100 pure to be visually appealing. Both of the times Amanda and I danced at ALHC, my parents were in the audience. It is all in how you approach the dance. If you expect it to be sexy and feel like you have to make an effort to not have it be sleazy...odds are, you are already too sleazy. If you approach it as a slow, connected dance, and focus on the connection aspect, rather than the sex aspect, you will probably not have top worry about people thinking you are sleazy. In fact, you can focus on connection to the point where you have the full-on zen experience but never worry about crossing into the sleazy.

I do not believe that "What happens on the dance floor stays on the dance floor," should be a basic tenet of Blues Dance.

I say that IF something happens on the dance floor, it does not mean that anything will happen off the dance floor, but to operate by the above mantra means that you go into the dance expecting something to happen that would otherwise not be considered okay. It's kind of like having a "500 mile rule" for dancing, and saying that something that would not otherwise be okay, is okay simply because we are on the dance floor. That is a total set-up for blues to continue it's bad reputation.

Amanda and I do not teach "dirty" blues. We teach how we dance. Several very basic moves, and then intense connection and partnered improvisation to build off those simple moves and movements and make them into something more. We encourage students to add themselves to the dance and if that means down and dirty, so be it, but that is a choice they make for themselves. They have the technique to make that happen on their own when they leave our class. But from the start, we never, ever, say that blues HAS to be a sexy dance. We want those options to be open to our students, but we do not want them to be a fundamental expectation of the dance.

Lastly, you cannot dance in a vacuum. You can lose yourself in a dance with your partner, but just like everything you do in life, people will see it, read it, hear it, etc. and they will make decisions for themselves as to whether or not they like it. You have a choice, you can either think about what you are doing, and adjust your behavior so as to not offend anyone or you can do whatever you want and just don't give a damn. If you choose to not care what people think, then you can't get mad at them for what they think of your actions.

Okay, sothat was more than a couple of ideas, but hey, I got on a roll, and now I have to go dancing!

Yeah , Ogden, what julius said. You might get tired of telling us, but some of us never get tired of listening to you. :)

Quoted from "Ogden"
Blues is about connection, to the music, and to your partner.... Blues is about boundaries.... Blues is a dance between you and your partner... Lastly, you cannot dance in a vacuum.

That is why I love it. Connection, and a different way to feel a moment of music, human connection, and (hopefully) some modicum of skill. It's a totally different feeling with someone I just met and have a great dance with and someone I really know and have a history with (as dancers, as friends...)

Sometimes I let go more than others, sometimes I am more in the moment. Sometimes I hear the music in a deep and wonderful way, Sometimes I am less inspired and just thinking about how my left dance shoe is too tight.

That's me, I know it's not for everyone.

(and who was it that wrote about first seeing Ogden dance the blues?? I first saw him at ALCH 2000. AMAZING!)

Lillieblue wrote: If you want me to dance close, I am happy to ride your leg. Just ask Eric-

I can totally vouch for that. 8)

xo sj

Quoted from "Erica"
Yeah , Ogden, what julius said. You might get tired of telling us, but some of us never get tired of listening to you. :)

I don't get tired of talking about blues at all. I was actually enjoying reading all of the posts before mine in the thread. I think that I should say that my opinion of blues is strictly that, an opinion. I am happy that people agree with me however, mine is but one interpretation of the dance.

We, meaning the Lindy/Blues community, do not really dance traditional blues. We often do not even dance to blues music. To my knowledge the only person who has really spent any amount of time tracking down the roots of blues dancing is Damon. The roots are few and far between, but they are there if you look hard enough, but there are no Frankie Mannings and Norma Millers to pass the knowledge on, and as yet no Rythm Hotshots or Steven Mitchell has emerged to seek out older blues dancers and re-assemble the roots of the dance. To my knowledge, Damon has come the closest thus far.

So what does this mean? Basically, it means we are all wingin' it. Amanda and I have created out style of Blues by pilfering some basics and creating the rest on our own, adding whatever felt "right" at the time, and doing all sort of wacky connection work trying to build that skill. Everyone who teaches blues adds something different to it, and really, no one is "wrong" because we have no real idea of what "right" really is. I just want to keep my blues as open to new ideas and influences as I can.

It is impossible to deny that Blues has picked up a sleazy reputation, but to say that it doesn't deserve it, well, if all you see of Lindy Hop is beginner level Lindy from the late 80's you will have a VERY different idea of what Lindy Hop is, than if you saw it danced today. Blues deserves whatever reputation the dancers want it to have, as determined by the way they dance. If you want people to think blues is not sleazy, then don't dance sleazy. Its very simple. Unfortunately, you don't get to determine what sleazy is, as they say, it is all in the eye of the beholder. If you don't care, then don't care, dance how you love to dance, don't give a crap about what other people think...and don't get upset when they say they are tired of the x-rated swing, exchanges, dancing, etc, etc, etc. You are dancing the way you choose, if you want people to respect the way you dance, to a certain extent, you have to dance in a way that they find respectful.

I try to approach Blues Dance similar to the way people approach Argentine Tango. Argentine Tango is a dance that is arguably FAR more passionate, flirtatious, and downright sexy and sensual than Blues is. I mean c'mon the dance orignated in the brothels of Argentina, by workers who flocked to Argentina inthe late 19th century leaving wives and family back home, dancing with prositutes. So that dance has a far, far more down and dirty past than Blues, and yet people think of it as a connection intense, generally slow, partner-focused, passionate dance (description sound familiar?). Traditional close-embrace Tango is f'ing hard compared to blues connection too. So, it is possible to have it both ways. I see no reason that Blues cannot have that same reputation. We are, in fact, creating a new dance here. This is not really an evolution of something else. We found out that Lindy didn't work for slow music, yet we found something in slow music that moved us, so we took the principle of Lindy, musical connection, partner connection, improvisational, open-ended and loosely defined, and because the music was Bluesy, and the slow division at ALHC is called the Blues Division, we called it Blues Danicng without really knowing what else to call it.

It's whatever we want it to be.

Wow... :o Just wow. This all really makes me sad. :(

I passed this thread a few times, but never paid enough attention to the subject to actually read it. Tonight, when I noticed that it was started by dpezz, I read it. All of it. I can't believe how much bickering has gone on for the past 5 pages. People fighting back and forth, purposely trying to piss people off, and the lack of being able to stay on topic really make me wonder how old everyone really is.

I think everyone needs to be reminded of what Danny started this thread about. He wasn't talking about "blues vs. grinding" or the bad reputation of a scene. He was talking about how after-PARTIES have become so X-rated (pornographic, if you will).

I started dancing in Dec. of 2002. By January, I was already starting to learn Lindy. I got thrown in the deep end right from the start. This also included the deep end of the party side. I was taught right away about "Lindy Love" - both in the form of desiring to dance with a certain partner because of a connection that you felt from having a great dance, and the after-party side to it (which was defined more as someone to maybe get to 1st, possibly 2nd base with, and cuddle with as you went to sleep). I did have Lindy Loves right away, both for dancing and for cuddling, ect. I did my share of partying. I actually learned about body shots by going to a party with swing dancers. From the start, all the after-parties I went to involved a few people dancing, a few people drinking, and a few people just sitting around talking about music, or watching the couples dance and commenting on moves or whatnot. At first it was nothing really dirty. Not long after this, dpezz and I started dating each other exclusively. Soon enough, the parties seemed to be more and more about drinking and other things people sometimes end up doing after they drink...

We had sort of an incident at an after-party that made me realize that I could go to these parties and have fun without crossing lines. After that night, I became more serious about things I needed to be serious about. I continued to blues dance at after-parties and continued to also learn more stylistically. The only times I had dances that made me think of sex or made me feel sensual (meaning more sensitive, especially to slight touches of the hand usually involved in partner dance) was when I'd have a well connected dance with Danny. I blues danced with other dancers and never really felt uncomfortable. I blues danced with Danny and didn't always have that "Hey, let's go ditch this party" feeling. It was all based on how well we connected. We didn't bump & grind. Some moves were a little more risque (sp) than others, but nothing too bad, or at least not that anyone at the parties complained about.

Then LOLX came around. In any event, I've learned that most of the people that will travel a great distance for an exchange are generally the people that are more into the social events than the people that don't. That is not to say that they're not into the dancing itself, but that they are more likely to be the ones that will stay up all night to hang out or dance. Being a volunteer for LOLX, I ended up exhausted. The first night, I partied a little, then rested so I could get up early the next day and drive 2 hours or so to college. The next night, I think Danny and I slept through the party (which started after we'd already gone to bed). That was the night that the "debauchary" occurred. We knew nothing about it until we heard stories the next day. Later that night, I partied a little. The next and final night, I slept through the party (literally sitting upright on the couch, surrounded by partiers) because I had to get up for school again. I have 2 points for this bit of information. 1) The parties weren't so extreme and out there that it bothered me obviously if I slept through 2 of them, right? 2) These parties included a lot more people than regular local parties. Add a lot more alcohol than usual. (I'm sure that there are those of you that know alcohol lowers one's inhabitions greatly...) Add the added social atmosphere of people that don't get to see each other all the time. Add hormones. Add whatever else you can think of, including the kitchen sink (haha... no pun intended there... :wink: ), and you've got yourself a party that's going to probably get out of hand in the eyes of someone that doesn't party as hard.

I admit, the blues "competition" at one of the late nights was somewhat over the top. I was in it. I had no idea that's what it would turn in to. I was glad I had danced with a lead that wasn't as "experienced" with blues as some of the other contestants. My own boyfriend at the time, who happened to be one of the judges, told me he was glad I got cut after the first round. In my opinion, people were taking it a bit too far. It went from a blues dancing competition to "let's see who can keep the audience's attention the longest with whatever we can pull out of our asses and be crazier than the other couples." After 2 bars of music in the final round, people were no longer dancing. However, there's no reason to compare that to OK's (or Tulsa's, or whoever's) scene and their blues. I can vouch that OK's blues is nothing like that. I rather enjoy blues if I connect well with my lead.

As for the shirtless birthday jam...I guess for those of you that didn't approve of it, I should hang my head in shame for you. For those of you that it didn't bother, I won't worry. Yes, I took my shirt off to dance with Lindy Phil and the other birthday'ers. (He's the only one that came to mind first.) And I'm the one that wore a bikini top and skirt to the Hawaiian dance and Lei'ed everyone when they walked in the door. Sorry, but I wasn't doing it to be sexy or to make anyone feel uncomfortable. I did it to keep up with the theme. At the time, I didn't have anything Hawaiian print, so I wore the top because I knew it would keep me cool while dancing. (Sorry for the leads that had to deal with my sweaty back... :oops: ) I'm the kind of person that's totally into themed events. They're great! They can actually be fun if you just get into them. And I certainly didn't do it to give my home scene a bad look.

Anyway, I guess the whole point of this was to redirect everyone to the topic at hand. Blues dancing does not equal after-parties. And after-parties don't always need to equal blues dancing. There may be blues dancing at after-parties, but it doesn't have to be involved. You can sit and talk. You can drink. You can watch a movie or search the internet for whatever you want. You can dance. The party should be a party and all these things are included in parties. Just don't take it to an extreme where it's going to push people away. Pretty soon, you won't have anyone to party with and you'll be the one everyone talks about and feels sorry for because you're home alone with your alcohol and no one to bump & grind with.

I think this might be closer to the point dpezz was trying to make. Dpezz, if I'm wrong about that last paragraph, please correct me.

Sheesh, for one that hardly ever talks, I sure talk a lot...Sorry folks. :dunno:

-rachel-

Gah! This thread hurts me. But apparently I deserve the pain.

I'm sorry everyone. It's all my fault. I'm a horn ball. I like men. I like women. I like flirting and touching and I cross all kinds of boundaries of public indecency even when I try to be good.

I'm sorry I'm a bad dancer. I know I'm bad, and I really am working on it. But in the mean time, I'll hurt your eyes to watch: "Oh, have mercy! Look at her grinding hips!"

So, as a sexed up bad dancer, let me tell you why you won't get rid of me, nor will you be able to change my behavior. Blues dancing, blues rooms, and after parties are not the cause of my debauchery. I came into the dance world this way. And even if you are spared from my dance floor coquetry, know that I corrupt all public spaces. When you pull up to a car at a red light, it's my head you see bobbing in the driver's lap. When you hear a couple giggling in the bathroom stall next to you, one may just be me (or it may be the other two). I could go on, but that's not the point. The point is that when I am in the mood to play with someone, I am focused only on me and that person (or persons). I'm happy. The person I am with is happy. And that is what matters to me. Offending people doesn t matter to me because I m not thinking about you. All non-involved parties have mentally faded off to the distance even if I m actually physically surrounded.

Another important point is that as sexed as I am, I don't blues dance for cheap thrills. I get my cheap thrills in more direct ways. I blues dance because it helps me appreciate the intricacies of a song better than any night of chemically induced sensory heightening. But, since I'm a sucky dancer, you look at me and think, "grinding blues dance killer!" Let me add, I ve never had a crotch in my blues dance. The closest to an icky feeling was a spreading of my knees, which I promptly stopped with a survey says buzzer imitation.

So, I'm sorry I've made people feel yicky. I'm not sorry enough to change, and you're not going to get rid of me. The fact is my behavior is ignored, tolerated, appreciated, and encouraged by enough folk that I don't have to worry about it.

Oh, I almost forgot one more thing. I love, love, love my non-sexed friends, dances, moments, etc, too. My life is as wonderful as it is because I have the opportunity to spend quality time with super-straight-laced people, freaky-fetish folk, and everything in between. Exchanges bring all kinds, and I don t think I d have as much fun if I d have to drive to one venue to see partiers and drive to another venue to see early-to-bed people. How limiting and silly!

Okay, I m going to be late for my workshop in Tampa if I don t hit the road soon, so I ll shut up.

I just met Sinner at SOFLEX. She is great! She would be welcome here in Texas any time. I am not sure who Ogden is, but he is welcome too.

T