(from the Yehoodi Website, deleted from Yehoodi.com when they got a new server, lost on my pc somewhere, but luckily found on Google 2004 as it was copied to the tcswing.com website in 2001)
A couple of years ago, I asked a very good local dancer how he could wear sneakers and dance without messing up his knees. He quietly told me that he put something on the bottom of his shoes and sneakers to turn and slide better. I got the idea that I uncovered some kind of secret and I better not pursue the conversation. I thought that Bleyers were the only thing to dance on! At Catalina last year, I found out that the LA style dancers sometimes glue something called Chrome Leather to the bottom of their shoes.
Dancing an average of 5 nights a week for many years, I began asking lots more questions and was lucky to work 2 blocks from a wholesale shoe supply company. I began many experiments and thought I'd share them with you.
As I am quite sure that I do not know it all, I ask that any of you that have experimented yourselves would add or correct what I have written here, and this will be edited and corrected at a later time.
(Note: This was probably originally written in 1999, but is edited in September 2004 If anyone can add, correct, change anything here, please do so and I’ll update it.)
DESCRIPTION OF FLOORS - WOOD
"A+" quality-the best wood floor like "A" but sprung, like Memories in Orange County, Ca.
"A" quality-well cared for oak or maple wood floor. I have seen floors like this in NY at most of the dance schools. You can dance with any shoe bottoms or even in socks and feel great. BUT some of these floors can get sticky if the A/C can’t handle the body heat or the humidity makes the floor damp.
"B" quality-Usually like above but not consistent with each visit or various places on the floor. Sometimes a bit too slippery. Another type I'd put in this category are those temporary floors put down for dance events and competitions. But some of those could very well fit in lower categories especially when one trips on the joints.
"C" quality-Not too bad, but usually rough. Not very slick. Not the best surface to dance on.
"D" quality-Very inconsistent. Could be a good floor if cared for. Drinks and food that are spilled on them aren't cleaned very well, or seep into the unsealed wood.
"F" quality-Rough plywood, rubberized wood. Good "A" floors that are warped, has holes, nails or screws sticking up. Floors that were never made for dancing.
MARBLE, TILE, TERRAZZO, CONCRETE, ASPHALT
Although some of these are better surfaces are better to dance on than others, and even different types of the above surfaces can be better than others, anything else as far as I'm concerned is not ideal as there is insufficient give in the floor to act as a shock absorber. You will get tired quicker, your feet and knees will ache quicker and you just won't last as long. Besides the hardness, these surfaces are sometimes very rough and you will grab the floor making it very hard to dance. I've found hard leather best for most of these surfaces. Also sole savers (see later on)
SAND, GRASS, DIRT, CARPET, BOARDWALKS, BRICKS
Barefoot on sand and grass are fun. Hard leather is best on carpeting but can sometimes be too slippery. Sometimes there are so many ridges on some of these surfaces that if you don't have rounded edges to your shoes, you will keep tripping in the cracks.
UNDERWATER
Tom Weiser and I are probably the first people to dance under water. We did a swingout 40 feet down near the Casino in Catalina in June 1999! It was fun but we really needed music! We wore fins on our feet.
DESCRIPTION OF SHOES
I have always been on my feet a lot and love to be comfortable all the time. Shoes are personal taste and sometimes looks are more important to some people than others. I prefer comfort over looks. You can have both! I have found that the most comfortable sneakers are Nike Air in all styles, and Rockport shoes with only their lightweight "Rockport" bottoms (they come two ways). Both are very lightweight and absorb shock well for any use.
I have danced on many other brands and have personally found those two my most comfortable. Some of the dance shoes sold for swing dancers have very poor cushioning - my feet get tired in them after just a few hours of dancing or walking.
The arch support is also very important. Some shoes have very little which will tire the feet out sooner. I have been fortunate enough to have a podiatrist friend who gave me very expensive orthotics, which are custom made shoe inserts which keep your feet and arches in their perfectly relaxed natural position. You can get very inexpensive do-it-yourself orthotics at large sporting goods stores. I've heard some people happy with other types of arch supports and feet
insoles. If your feet hurt at all, do something to change it, they
shouldn't hurt no matter how much you dance.
DESCRIPTION OF BOTTOMS
RUBBER and PLASTICS-like the bottoms of sneakers and many shoes. These bottoms can sometimes be good, but if your shoes grab the floor, your knee is going to take torque that will not only tire you out, but can do damage to the ligaments and tendons. Depending on the surface, some rubber bottoms can work, but mostly very hard rubber. I've heard of some dancers letting their sneakers wear down to a smooth surface so they can slide and turn well, but this lessens the cushioning your shoes need to absorb shock.
The first time I danced with my regular sneakers on a good wood floor, I loved the bounciness and cushioning I felt.
CHROME LEATHER-In L.A., the dancers talk about "Chrome Leather", or "Chrome". This feels like a rough suede. (Yes, in 1999, LA dancers were the only ones I ever heard were wearing chrome!) It is very durable and you can control the slickness by roughing them up with a wire brush or just walking on the sidewalk with them if they get too slick for you. I just walk in them like regular shoes and they are always perfect for me. (I chromed my first pair of shoes on last November, and they are still good-and I walk in them a lot!) The only problem is don't get them wet, you will stick to some surfaces and slip on others. So don't wear them in the rain and keep away from water on dance floors.
Chromed shoes give you great control of stopping or spinning or turning or sliding, all dependent on the floor. It will not help you on sticky wood floors.
Chrome is only for wood floors. The L.A. and D.C. dancers go to regular shoe stores to have their shoes chromed, and pay between $25 and $30 a pair. When I tried to do it here in N.Y. the shoemakers had no idea what I was talking about, so I went to a shoe supply company and found the stuff.
I purchased a large piece of chrome leather for $45.00. This was enough for about 10 or 11 pairs of shoes (that's about $4 per pair of shoes!). I glued it on myself. The stuff I got was about 1/8" thick. I've seen dancers with thicker chrome.
HARD LEATHER-When you dance in hard leather shoes, you can slide really well on good wood floors. Depending on your dance style, you could do what Peter Loggins does, switch between leather and chrome leather shoes when you want to change the moves you want to make on the floor! Hard leather is also very good for most concrete, terrazzo, tile, and concrete, except slick tile or marble surfaces where chrome or even sneaker type bottoms would do.
I found regular leather shoes to have very little ability to absorb shock, so I did something very interesting....I took a pair of Nike Air running style sneakers, and had my shoemaker glue on hard leather. It was amazing! I had both the shock absorption and the slickness I needed on concrete and other rough hard surfaces.
I got a one by two foot sheet of Italian leather for $15 (enough for probably 5 pairs of sneakers). The shoemaker charged me $10 to cut them into about 12 parts and glue them on. Normally, he would charge only $5, but these sneakers had ridges on them so the leather had to be cut all over. I couldn't cut this myself.
The first time I tried this, the 1/4" thick leather only lasted about 3 weeks. But this was dancing on concrete with sand all over it in Catalina for 5 days and nights, dancing at 3rd Street in LA and then dancing on asphalt in NY for an afternoon. It was so worth it!!
SOLE SAVERS
Another experiment. This is thin hard plastic I glued on the soles of some old sneakers. They cut down on most of the grabbing, but do not slide very well. They cut down on enough sticking that I'd even call them "knee savers". I've been walking on these for months and they don't seem to wear out or prevent the cushioning the sneakers usually gives me. A pair of sole savers cost me $2.00 and I glued it on myself.
NOTES ON STYLES OF DANCING AND BOTTOMS OF SHOES
If you are performing and doing aerials, hard and chrome leather may not be advisable as you need "grab". Some performers I spoke to used chrome only on the front of their soles so they could both slide with the soles and grab with the heels.
WHERE TO GET THE STUFF
In Noho, there is a wholesale shoe supply store at 346 Lafayette Street on the west side of the street just 2 doors north of Bleeker Street. They are open 6:30 A.M. to 2 P.M. Sunday thru Friday. They will sell to anyone although they are wholesale. They will do mail order for those of you out of the city.
Kaufman Shoe Repair Supplies, Inc., 346 Lafayette Street, New York, NY 10012, 212-777-1700.
Make sure you use their lingo-and I doubt you can get just enough leather for one or two pairs of shoes, these guys are wholesalers!
Chrome Leather-tell them the thickness you want (I think 1/8" is good), and about how large a piece (I think they are all about the size I got-for about 10 pairs). It is always grey.
Italian or German strap leather-This is the hard leather. Women's is a bit less than 1/4" thick and men's is a bit more than 1/4". You get enough for about 4 or 5 pairs of shoes for about $15.
HOW TO CHROME YOUR OWN SHOES IN FIVE MINUTES
I have chromed almost everything: sneakers with uneven bottoms, patent leather shoes with a golf shoe bottom (no cleats though), and rubber bottomed shoes. It doesn't matter if the surface is uneven, rough or in parts.
Buy a bottle or small can of Weldwood Contact Cement (or some other brand). It will cost $2-5.
1. Put the shoes/sneakers over the chrome, draw an exact outline. You can do just one and then make a copy of it when you cut that one up for the other shoe.
2. Using sharp strong scissors, cut out about 1/8" smaller than your outline. If you don't, parts of chrome will stick out creating a sloppy look.
3. If parts of the shoe do not make contact with the floor, you don't need to chrome those parts. (Like between the heel and sole.)
4. Clean the bottoms with soap and water or rubbing alcohol. Get all dirt and soap off the bottoms. Make sure it is totally dry.
5. Apply contact cement to both the bottom of the shoe and the chrome.Enough so the surface is fully covered, but not dripping with it. Sometimes the chrome will absorb a light coating, so do it again. Try not to get any glue on the edges of your shoes or on your hands, as sometime it's hard to get off.
6. Let it dry fully.
7. Carefully put the chrome onto the shoe bottom. Then press it on firmly, or hammer it on (like the shoemakers do!)
8. Close the glue bottle/can firmly, as it will dry up if you don't.
9. Dance!!
IMPORTANT NOTE: If the chrome didn’t adhere, you need to either sand the shoe bottom first if it was slick to begin with, OR you need to clean it better (too late now!). Just apply another coating to both surfaces, and make real sure they dry before putting it together.
You can probably search around for a shoemaker that can do all of the above for you, but you will pay much more than if you at least get the chrome leather or hard leather first. Be careful, my shoemaker tried to keep all the leftover leather which I can use for another few pairs of shoes.
Don't tell anyone else your secret!
Please post any comments here or e-mail michaelingbar@yahoo.com with any corrections or comments you’d like to make.
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This was originally a thread on the Ballroom MIT discussionlist back in the early 1990's. The FAQ was available on a FTP site somewhere (ftp.std.com I think) I had saved this copy. It has information both on dance floors, shoe types and what you should NOT add to dance floors.
--
From corr hal.hahnemann.edu Fri Mar 18 09:30:09 1994
Subject: Here's a dance floor FAQ of captured msgs...
Having just completed yet another refinishing job on dance floors
I have gained a moderate amount of knowledge in this field. I must say
this is a job that is VERY labor intensive. It also requires patience
I do not recommend Polyurethane, although it looks "pretty" it is not
functional as a dance floor. I do recommend "Dura-seal" the kind without
Polyurethane. In the color of your choice. Keep in mind not much of the
color will be seen. However, don't mix them because it will be obvious.
Steps:
1. Sand floors remove all of the old finish. Use a drum sander for
the major part of the work and an edge sander for the rest.
2. Throughly clean the floor. But, don't use a liquid, it will cause
you to loose a whole day.
3. Apply the first coat of Dura-seal. There will be three. This should
be the thickest coat. Application instructions are provided on the can
you can follow these for the product. I also recommend the Quart size of
Dura-seal. The gallon size is a different formula which takes longer to
dry.
4. Allow 24 hrs for the first coat to dry.
5. With 100 (00) sand paper remove ALL the dura-seal on the SURFACE
of the floor.
6. apply a second and third coat of dura-seal. Allow 8-12 hrs of
dry time between coats.
7. Remove ALL dura-seal from the surface of the floor. If any dura-seal
remains on the surface of the floor it will feel sticky in dance shoes.
You REALLY want to dance right on the wood of the floor.
Once you have completed this process the floor should last about 20-30
years. If you plan ahead you should be able to finish a floor in about
3 days (depending on the size of the floor). I finished 2600 sq ft.
in three days with one helper.
Good Luck
Mark
________________________________________________________________________
From: ahgberg aol.com
Description: Ballroom Dance Floors-care cleaning & construction
Dear John D. and other dancing colleagues
Over the years , ballroom dancing (dance) floors have been a topic of
endless concern and discussion to both beginning dancers as well as advanced dancers. I have danced on surfaces (represented as dance floors) ranging from wood, black top, bricks, slate, cement and kentile.
The best dance floor I have danced on was referred to as a "sprung" floor. This type of floor I'm told provides some resiliency to the dancers which resiliency is not provided by other surfaces. Tongue and groove
hardwood(maple or oak) are best for durability and comfort to the dancing feet. I'm told that the wood is laid over a base of plywood and the plywood is laid over a variety of wood firring strips that all contractors do not agree upon. Most were in agreement that laying the wood surface directly over a concrete slab would cost the least but would be the floor least likely to survive heavy traffic or maintenance. I will not question their logic. I do know from experience that the ideal situation is not always attainable when it comes to finding comfortable dancefloors.
When I have danced for any length of time (over and hour or two) on a
floor laid over concrete I get what is known as "shin splints". The ailment
occurs the next day (or at least the symptoms) up the front of my lower legs where the muscle (s) attach to the "shin bone". I have found the same problem when dancing on "beautifully kept" gym floors used for "sports" and ballroom dancefloor alternatively. The wood on gym floors is usually laid on end (as opposed to the flat side) and then the surface which is usually very beautiful to the eye is provided with a protection of some nonskid polyurethane lacquer. For basketball players in "sneakers" or "other rubber soled foot gear" it is ideally suited.
For my thin soled capezios I find the floor a bit too slow and too "hard"..A
FLOOR , BARE OF LACQUER AND/OR WAX "POLISHED BY THOUSANDS FEET OF BALLROOM DANCERS" SEEMS THE BEST SURFACE TO DANCE ON. THE LESS WAX YOU PUT ON IT THE BETTER IT FEELS TO THE DANCING FEET OF BALLROOM DANCERS.
I have encountered beautiful "to the eye" highly polished floors with silicone wax protectant that is very dangeroous to ballroom dancers. I SUPPOSE YOU NEED TO VACUUM IT AND PERHAPS KEEP IT FROM "MOISTURE" WHICH WARPS THE WOOD AND "CUPS" THE INDIVIDUAL PLANKING. THE LESS MAINTENACE THE BETTER IT SEEMS. I have tried various resins (ROSINS) on my leather soled dance shoes but I have found it to be trublesome and "messy".
I havbe also tried balloroom shoes with "suede leather" on the soles. Although they inhibited "slipping and sliding" on a fast floor somehow I didn't like the feel of the floor so I went from what Capezio called "a ballroom shoe" to a "character" shoe. Until I discussed this difference with the vendor I wasn't totally aware of the difference it would make in my dancing comfort. Hope I have helped with this rambling contribution.
sincerely A HGberg aol.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Description: Re: Ballroom Dance Floors-care cleaning & construction
In article <CMnzz2.BM3 cbnews.cb.att.com> katinsky stumpy.geography.wisc.edu writes:
>
>>>The best dance floor I have danced on was referred to as a "sprung" floor.
>>>This type of floor I'm told provides some resiliency to the dancers which
>>>resiliency is not provided by other surfaces. Tongue and groove
>>>hardwood(maple or oak) are best for durability and comfort to the dancing
>>>feet. I'm told that the wood is laid over a base of plywood and the plywood
>>>is laid over a variety of wood firring strips that all contractors do not
>>>agree upon.
>
>>And for added comfort, you can put rubber strips beneath the firing strips.
>>I was looking into getting a dance floor for the basement of the house
>>I just bought -- until I discovered the entire upper floor is all hardwood.
>>So the joists should provide natural springing, especially since it's
>>on the upper level!
>
>And for an added little bit of fakelore:
>
>A friend of mine, WHO SWEARS THIS IS TRUE ;-) , says he danced on a floor
>constructed with used tires salvaged from a junk yard. The construction is the
>same as above except the firring strips (I assume that is what they are called
>although he didn't use that expression) are in a grid pattern -- two layers, one
>laid out north-south over another laid out east-west. The two layers were
>separated by a layer of tires placed strategically at every grid intersection.
>
>I suppose if it doesn't work as a dance floor, it would make a great indoor
>trampolene.
>
Tires sound too springy.
Any arrangement where there is a vertical line from the surface
of the floor entirely through wood to concrete will have zero spring
at that point, since the compressibility of wood is too small to matter
for this purpose.
Here is what I posted a while back about what I
got done in the back room of my house. It is definitely good. Some other
people have used this method, and agree. (Should this be in the
dancing-FAQ?):
>From dgolber aero.org (Dave Golber)
In article <1lbjuuINNt03 darkstar.UCSC.EDU> sutin helios.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin) writes:
>
>What exactly is the construction of a "sprung wood floor" -- does it
>really have springs, how big are they, and is there some kind of damping
>used?
>
Sometimes, I think, "sprung" means the floor is on wood beams above
an open space ... So if you want one, all you gotta do is
dig a basement underneath ...
More seriously: we had a wood floor put in our back room (16'x24')
for dance. We had it "sprung". Here's what goes down, starting from
the bottom:
Original cruddy concrete slab.
Special very-liquid (and expensive) concrete to level slab.
Plastic film vapor barrier
Little rubber thingies, about 2" square and 1/2" thick,
specially made for this sort of thing.
1/2" plywood running THIS way
1/2" plywood running THAT way
3/4" oak strips.
Finish.
It was rather expensive ... the special concrete to level the
old slab was a good part of it.
Apparently some architects and floor people know all about this stuff,
if you just say "dance floor" or "sprung floor". On the other hand,
we had some floor guys come over to look at it to bid on it, and they
weren't interested enough to give us a reply of any kind!
The result: when you jump up and down, someone can see the floor give under
you. The result to you: no pain!
As for finish: gettinng the finish you want may be hard. The typical
"dance" floor is much too slick for folk-dancer types. My suggestion
is to get a cooperative contractor, and have him do samples
until you like that sample.
Give me a call if you want to talk more. I could look up my records.
Dave Golber
310/391-1269
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>From dgolber uniblab.aero.org Fri Mar 12 17:15:56 1993
Posted-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 93 14:15:08 PST
From: dgolber uniblab.aero.org (Dave Golber)
To: tommy archimedes.ae.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Dancefloors
I am assisting in the construction of a dancefloor. The space is a large
commercial storefront (used to be a Kinko's copies) with a concrete slab
floor. If you could answer a coupla questions, I would be grateful:
1. How far apart were the rubber thingies spaced? Since you used
plywood running in both directions, I assume they were spaced the
same in both directions.
...One foot on centers in both directions.
The plywood was one layer running parallel to one wall, one layer running
parallel to the other wall. No necessary relation to the spacing of the
rubber thingies. Call me and I'll give you the brand name of them.
The whole thing is known to the right kind of architects as a "dance floor",
I believe.
2. How were the edges of your plywood sheets connected to one another?
Not at all. The whole thing is held together (I think) by the nails which
hold the strips to the plywood. They go through both layers.
(I'm not sure of this point. Call me
and I'll check the records. If they don't indicate, I could call the guy
who did the work.)
3. How bad (how do you quantify this sort of thing?) does the slab have
to be to require leveling cement, and what are the consequenses if
it is not used?
In my case, the slab was really tilted. Had to be done.
The floor guy cared enough about flatness (as opposed to tilt) that he
used roofing felt, cut to fit, to even up depressions that were perhaps 1/8"
deep across several feet. I can't tell you just _how_ necessary this was.
4. What would be the consequences of leaving out the vapor barrier?
My impression from what I've read is that the vapor barrior is real important,
since moisture from/through the slab can do awful things to the oak.
Like making it expand, and rise up like there were gophers underneath.
5. Your opinion of this design:
3/4" oak flooring on 3/4" plywood running only one direction
over 2"x4" studs laid directly upon concrete slab. (possibly
anchored ?) Studs to be spaced more or less at standard joist spacing
for 3/4" decking both THIS way and THAT way. The studs would lie with
the 4" face vertical, giving (nominally) a 4" clearance between slab
and decking.
This will of course be springier between joists and stiffer over them.
My comments:
(1) Yes, you need a vapor barrier.
(2) You will have NO spring over the joists. Wood doesn't compress.
(3) You've used 4 3/4 3/4 inches of vertical space in your room.
It you have a high ceiling, it doesn't matter. (In my case, it did.)
Total height in my case: 1/2 1/2 1/2 3/4 inches.
-----------------------
Give me a call, and I can look up names, etc. 310/391-1269. Los A,CA evenings.
Also: there are lots of do it yourself books about floors. They don't much
talk about making them springy, but they'll tell you about vapor barriers, etc.
I don't do floors myself, but I consider myself a fairly experienced wood
worker. I was considering an arrangement maybe like this:
1/2x2 inch, on flat side, running north/south
2x4 on flat side, running EW
1/2x2, on flat side, running N/S
plywood
oak.
The idea would have been that the 1/2x2s and 2x4s would be arranged in
such a way that in no place was there a straight line entirely though wood
to concrete. But then one has to figure out spacings, so as to get the
right amount of spring. And the loss of vertical space would be
1/2 2 1/2 3/4.
Having seen what my floor guy did, I think it's better, with the possible
caveat that some arrangement like the one I was thinking of might be less
sensitive to flatness of the underlying slab.
Dave Golber
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tpower daisy.cc.utexas.edu (Thomas Power)
Description: Re: Ballroom Dance Floors-care cleaning & construction
(I am having editing problems on the machine that I get news on,
so I wrote this elsewhere; please forgive the non-standard
attribution.)
--(stuff deleted about sandwich floor over cruddy concrete...)--
This was originally a reply to a query of mine asking for
dancefloor information, because I was about to be involved in
the construction of a 1500 s.f. ballroom floor.
We followed this plan, after having gotten exactly the same
story (as well as a nice discount on the "little rubber
thingies") from a local floor builder. Fortunately, the
leveling concrete was not necessary in our case, and we used tar
paper as our vapor barrier. The rubber thingies are stapled to
the bottom of the bottom layer of plywood. I believe we placed
them on 1' centers both directions, but check with a
knowledgeable authority to be sure.
The whole sandwich is held together with the staples or nails
which are shot into the tongues of the flooring strips with a
special pneumatic gun. Our floor guy suggested the staples,
which did work very nicely. (these are very serious staples.)
You must leave space (we were told to leave a half inch) between
the floor structure (plywood as well as flooring) and all walls
in order to accomodate swelling. We were also told to let the
flooring sit for some time (seems like it was > 1 week) in the
room to allow it to shrink or swell in response to the usual
level of humidity in the room, which may be quite different than
that where the flooring was stored before.
This makes for a very nice floor. We were very pleased with it;
it was not squishy by any means, but it was certainly a far cry
from dancing on tiles laid directly on concrete.
I say "was" because not long after we built this floor, the
studio was flooded by a plumbing accident in an adjacent business
and our floor was ruined. The whole thing was torn out and
rebuilt (exactly the way we had done it) by a professional
flooring company (paid for with insurance .)
My only regret is that the floor was finished with what I
believe was a polyurethane type finish. This made a O.K.
dancing surface, because it was not put on too thick -- the
texture of the wood was still apparent.(unlike the very glassy
appearance of modern maple gymnasium floors)
Nevertheless, I was hoping to follow the suggestion of another
person who replied to my query and just saturate the floor with
linseed oil after sanding it down. Once the floor has soaked
the oil in for a couple of days the excess is wiped off, and the
floor can apparently be used in a matter of days. I was hoping
for this kind of finish because I am in agreement with the
person who mentioned here that his (her?) favorite floor was bare
wood worn smooth by dancing, and I figured this was as close as
we could get and still take proper care of the wood.
--
Thomas Power Buy the best mousetrap.
Dept. of Engineering Mechanics
University of Texas at Austin Opinions courtesy of myself only.
tommy archimedes.ae.utexas.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ecb world.std.com (Eileen C Bauer)
Description: Re: Ballroom Dance Floors - construction
>In article <CMoxo5.784 cbnews.cb.att.com> The Wilde One <JCWILDE acad.keyanoc.ab.ca> writes:
> Tis isn't intended as a flame, but ANY arrangement which
> consists entirely of wood (and air) MUST necessarily have some
> point at which there is a straight line entirely though wood to
> concrete.
>This is not intended as a flame either, but I think you are wrong.
>Make a 3-layer arrangement as follows:
>layer 1: strips running NS at x-coordinates 0,2,4,6, ...
>layer 2: strips runing EW at unspecified y-coordinates
>layer 3: strips running NS at x-coordinates 1,3,5,7, ...
>It is obvious( ) that this will be a springy arrangement. Now
>the only problem is that the NS strips have to be close enough that
>the EW strips will not crack. It may be wise to make layer 2 out
>of a tougher material. And putting the NS strips closer together
>makes the springiness tougher, putting them further apart makes the
>spring action looser.
>( ) layer 1 makes contact with layer 2 at even x-coordinates,
>layer 3 makes contact with layer 2 at odd x-coordinates. Hence
>there is no point where 3 layers touch.
Saw the above setup described in Dance magazine. Strips should not be
placed so that longest side is vertical, because this would give very
little bounce. Placing the longest side horizontal lets the wood give
way more, but also puts the most weight on the weakest edge of the wood. Therefore you would have to interleave the strips closer than you would otherwise. Maybe every 6in? Normal floors have beams ever 1 foot or so...
>I have heard various dancers and teachers recommend the application of
>baby oil, talcum powder or powdered laundry detergent to the soles of
>dance shoes, to compensate for floors that are too slick or too
>sticky.
As someone who has maintained a 2500 sq ft maple dance floor for 6 years. I would like to pass on a few helpful suggestions.
1st) Never, never, allow someone to put dance wax down on a dance floor. If someone falls down in these litigious times the fallee will probably end up owning your ass sets. Dance wax is used by shufflers who don't pick up their feet. As such they try to minimize friction by making a dance floor slick. When someone with proper dance shoes steps on the waxed spot it is treacherous. The chrome suede soles are called non skid because they allow you to slide your foot when light to moderate pressure is applied. When firm pressure is applied to the shoe, the fuzz on the sole bites down and one stops quickly. A good dancer can pirouette (spin) 5-7 times on a "slow" floor. I think that should be proof that a floor is fast enough.
2nd) As an emergency, if someone throws wax down a good antidote is to brush it inward to as small a spot as possible and the put Tide detergent down over and around the affected area. (Others don't seem to work as well). The grit in the Tide will slow the floor down although it takes weeks to get the
surface back to what it was.
3rd) For gyms or floors where ballet rosin has been used, try a lightly damp mop to clean followed by dry floor mop with a very few drops of boiled linseed oil. Go up and down the floor in both a linear and crosswise manner and the floor can be improved temporarily.
By the way all we ever do is dry mop once a week
I'll also pass on a saying I'll never forget. I once asked the 6 time Latin
Champion Lorraine from Sweden what one should do when the music
was fast and the floor slick. Lorraine responded" The floor is not fast or
slow, only more or less forgiving! " Just as you can STAND on ice without
falling, take a big step and your are pondering the blueness of the sky. So
it is with dance. Get over your feet and no floor is too fast.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hage netcom.com (Carl Hage)
Description: Re: Talc, etc.
Dancers and particularly dance teachers should NEVER recommend application of substances to a dance floor (other than by the proprietor) or to dance shoes which could be transferred to the floor. This is VERY dangerous and can cause people to fall and get badly hurt. The best way to compensate for a bad floor is to change shoes. Adding substances to
the floor (or your shoes and then to the floor) almost always creates
an uneven distribution which will cause people to slip.
Adding substances to your shoes (other than water) at best is only
temporary and is still inconsistent.
In many cases, a floor will seem too sticky or too slick because someone
is wearing improper shoes. In other cases, it's a matter of preference,
e.g. many older dancers like to shuffle across the floor rather than
step. I remember one competition where a person was stepping in a pile of soap flakes (put on carpet making a big mess) which then ended up making slippery spots on the floor. This floor was PERFECT! The person adding the soap was not wearing normal dance shoes with suede soles so she may have thought it was slow. The person was repeatedly told not to add substances to the floor and did it anyway. Unfortunately she was not disqualified.
The competition had to be stopped several times so the floor could be
cleaned. I think USABDA should have a rule that anyone caught adding
substances to a floor at a competition will be immediately disqualified
(or shot).
If you wear suede shoes you can compensate from a slick floor by putting
water on your soles, and a slightly moistened sole will not transfer water to the floor. However, do not make puddles of water on the floor for someone else to inadventantly step in. Adding water will not help if the the floor is slick from added shuffleboard wax or soap. In this case, the entire floor must be cleaned and everyones shoes must be individually cleaned. (That is why a person adding soap to a floor should be shot.)
You can also brush suede soles to compensate for a slightly slick floor.
If the floor is too sticky you should change shoes, perhaps to an old
pair where the suede is polished or a pair with leather soles.
If you are organizing a dance and need to fix a sticky floor, I know of a
case where a large floor was fixed by adding a liquid which can be spread
evenly with a mop which when dried left an almost even film of wood dust
(I think). When first applied, it is still somewhat spotty, but after a
few weeks of grinding in by dancers, it was OK. I don't know the brand,
but if someone really wants to know I can try to find out.
Another solution for a sticky (or possible too slick) floor is to buff
the floor with a steel wool mat (by machine of course). This worked
in one case I know of for a too sticky floor, but it took a couple of tries
and then a month or so of dancers "buffing" the floor before it was
good.
Remember, don't add soap, talc, or wax-- change to leather shoes!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: corr hal.hahnemann.edu
Description: trouble with part-time dance floors
Hi, all. I'm a swing dancer (among other things) and went to a dance this
past Saturday wher the ballroom floor was horrendous. The swing dance society rotates through several ballroom facilities. The most frequently used is at an Irish center. They must have waxed or refinished it over the summer. The last dance and this dance the surface was really slow, possibly sticky. I helped set up and after kneeling to tape the table coverings I received a black oily mark on my tan pants.
This place doubles as a catering facility and is always short on cash. I
had a similar experience at a swing dance weekend when a workshop was held in a small restaurant dining room. Also a sticky floor. My jazz shoes were trashed on the bottom. We also danced at a catering facility that had ultra slippery floors. The group leaders roughed up their shoe soles with wire brushes and sprinkled a bit of water around to no avail. People were slipping right and left. During the summer the City of Phila. holds outdoor swing band concerts at the waterfront on Thursday evenings. The space in front of the bandstand is concrete. A swing promoter brought a shallow box and poured Ivory Snow (I can't remember if it was powder or flakes) and we rubbed our soles in it to take the stress off our ankles and knees. It seemed to work well.
My question: Do you have any suggestions for cleaning the floors that are sticky, and how long ahead can it be done before a dance. As a volunteer group I'm wondering about the committment needed.
Can anything be done about ultra-slippery floors (other than dancing in
sneakers.) Any tips for quick fixes like the soap flakes? A friend carries a candle in her handbag if the floor is too sticky.
This was the second dance at this facility and I found it really frustrating.
I like to spin and so do the women. I was reduced to pivots for both of us. My knees have been giving me trouble and, in fact, kept me from dancing over the past year. I'm just returning and am pacing my involvement. I used to open and close the dances. (7:30 to Midnight.) Any help is appreciated. Paul
=========================================================================
From: cn9gr8ad lacerta.unm.edu (J.W. VanDenburg)
I've only ran across sticky performance floors once, and for that
we used one of those extra-wide dust mops FULL of dust to coat
the surface, and had everyone scoot around to grind it in.
> Can anything be done about ultra-slippery floors (other than dancing in
>sneakers.)
You might try resin and a cat-box.'' We use it all the time
for slipperly dancefloors like Marly(sp?) or places that are
maintained like a bowling alley. You can get it through the
local ballet outfitter in leu of other resources.
Water is really dangerous since it only provides a patchy
surface and can be like dancing in cleats!
> Any tips for quick fixes like the soap flakes? A friend carries a candle in
>her handbag if the floor is too sticky.
for the floor or her shoes!!?? ;-). Wax is extremely dangerous! We had a performance once where the candles on stage fell over and wax was left all over. People fell (and got injured) continuously
the likes of which i have never seen before or since. They immediately redesigned the set before the next performance.
--
...je
...cn9gr8ad lacerta.unm.edu
===================================================================
Wax will help on slippery floors.
It won't, however, do any good on ULTRA-slippery floors since these
tend to be the "sealed" variety. What will help, however, provided
that you are using "chrome"-soles, is keeping the soles wet. Possible
ways:
a) Water. Tends to dry with surprising speed. And is hard to control.
Your shoes will be either very sticky or not sticky at all.
b) Coke, beer, lemonade etc. Sounds horrible, but does help.
(especially if you find yourself on a slippery floor without
having been prepared for it).
c) Oil. More exact: high-quality gun-oil. I know that it sounds silly
(I mean, after all oil is supposed to make things even more
slippery, not sticky), but it really works. BUT: Oil might damage
the uppers!
All three methods would not normally hurt a sealed floor. They might,
however, pose a danger to others who are using the same floor as a gym
(running around in sport-shoes and such...).
Hope that's of some help
Sven
======================================================================
From: MX "ernst ai.univie.ac.at" 21-SEP-1993 10:33:04.12
From: Ernst Buchberger <ernst ai.univie.ac.at>
Paul,
I found your inquiry on the net regarding treatment of bad dance floors.
As you noticed, there are two problems:
sticky floors and ultra-slippery floors.
For sticky floors I use wax. You may either use a rasp to spread
the (candle-)wax over the floor, or else prepare the wax-flakes at home
which makes the procedure quite quick before you start to dance.
As for slippery floors, there are various possibilities:
roughing up shoe soles helps a little, but not very much.
I have used washing powder (detergent:spread it on the floor).
A more extreme method is the use of rosin or else the combination
of a mixture of rosin, a floor cleaning lotion and coke.
Warning: the people owning the dance floor will not like the rosin
because it may harm the floor surface (but it saves my ankles...).
As for my practical experience:
I have used the washing powder when dancing argentine tango,
and I have used rosin for flamenco. The "combined magic potion" I did not
yet try out for myself, it has been recommended to me by a flamenco teacher.
I suppose you will not use the rosin method for swing dancing,
but in flamenco you would like to do away with any slipperiness of
the floor as much as possible.
Hope that helps,
Best regards,
Ernst
(BTW, I should like to hear about your experiences or any other
"special recipes" you run across).
I almost forgot about Peds. A few years ago, I met a dancer from Gainsville, Florida. She wore Peds over her sneakers, which are also called sockless socks .
I have been spreading my love of Peds for many years now, as they are such an easy and quick fix for sticky floors or for when you forget your dance shoes. They slip over your shoes and if you get the right color, you can t even tell they re there. They are easier than tape, and don t mess up the floor like tape does.
They do take some getting used to, as they can be very slippery when clean and new. Do not try them on floors that are slick to begin with unless you are a proficient ice skater!
I have only been able to find them in Walmart, Kmart, Duane Reade, but I guess they can be found in any big department store or drug store. They should cost around 3 or 4 for 3 pair, but you can also sometimes find a great deal on a dozen. They come in black, white, and flesh (ugh!)
They come in regular and large. I can just about get the regular ones stretched over my regular shoes, but not my Nikes, which I need large. I wear a 9 to 10 size shoe (or 43 to 44 for the Europeans). I ve tried other brands, but Peds seem to be the only ones that work well and last a long time. Get the nylon type, not cotton. I ve worn some many times, maybe 10 or 25 time even when there are holes in them, they still work, as you can put the holes by your heels. I keep them in a small baggie and they go everywhere.
Hey, you never know when there will be music and someone to dance with when you least expect it!
If you chrome your own, shop around. People seem to love to go to shoe repair shops and such but you can also get chrome, hard, or whatever leather from a commercial leather supplier. These places sometimes have a scrap bin where you can sort through and buy stuff by the pound.
I bought a big sheet of nice leather at such a supplier. It had some square holes in it and it was this weird green color, but it was cheap and the space between the holes had enough contiguous leather to chrome two pairs of shoes from toe to heel. I've danced a lot of dances in those shoes and they just keep on goin'!
I have come to agree with the some of the comments in that long email thread on the unintended consequences of dancewax. Somebody at Rhythmic Arts decided to put dancewax on their shoes and it turned the floor uneven. More then one person, including myself, fell. One unfortunate dancer ripped a seam in his vintage suit. Not Cool!
Uneven? That's like you saying you have a mild dislike for blues dancing. That wax turned spots of that floor into Teflon.
Far as I'm concerned, any idiot bringing dance wax into a place with a nice wood floor should be outed and beat down. If I ever see anyone using dance wax on such a floor, I'll do just that.
My shoes are too big for peds but I found a great alternative "Kushy Feet". Duane Reade sells them in the same sections as peds. They are suppose to wrap around one's feet. They work great & look better than peds.
Quoted from "MCQ & CHRIS" My shoes are too big for peds but I found a great alternative "Kushy Feet". Duane Reade sells them in the same sections as peds. They are suppose to wrap around one's feet. They work great & look better than peds.
Peds seems to have discontinued their "Extra Large" size which even fit over my Nikes. I keep trying to contact them, but peds.com has not been working for the past year or so.
I went to Duane Reade, but they have about 5 different kinds of "Kushy Feet". Which kind did you use???
Quoted from "Addict" I have come to agree with the some of the comments in that long email thread on the unintended consequences of dancewax. Somebody at Rhythmic Arts decided to put dancewax on their shoes and it turned the floor uneven. More then one person, including myself, fell. One unfortunate dancer ripped a seam in his vintage suit. Not Cool!
Oh that's a killer. I've long said i prefer a sticky or slow floor to an uneven one. Slow, I can adjust for. Dance wax spots can be like black ice -- invisible but deadly!
I think waxes and powders and the like are poor, lazy, cheap substitutes for proper shoes. Hard leather can go anywhere and it's plenty fast.
If one MUST, wax in advance and buff off the excess so the rest of the crowd doesn't suffer for your "art."
I hate to be rude but socks over shoes just look silly and can't possibly perform as well as decent shoes. Should be an emergency solution only. I really don't understand how anyone dancing with any kind of regularity sees this as the default option.
Quoted from "Atalanta" I hate to be rude but socks over shoes just look silly and can't possibly perform as well as decent shoes. Should be an emergency solution only. I really don't understand how anyone dancing with any kind of regularity sees this as the default option.
not necessarily a default, but when i took some swing/bal classes at the joffrey school (marley floor for ballet), i found my hard leathers soles didn't work all that well and chrome was even worse. surprisingly, peds actually worked best in that situation. good thing fashion is a much less important consideration in a class setting...
emergency solution. there ya go. it's not your first choice, but if you hafta, you hafta. i think it's fine to have some in the dance bag for unfamiliar floors, and you're right -- classes don't count. but i'm being admittedly snobby toward those who think peds = a-ok nightly dance wear.
Agreed. I carry around Peds for emergencies. I can wear them over sneakers, on sticky floors (yet some are even too sticky for Peds!), and try to bring at least one pair of chromed shoes and one pair of leather soled shoes for unfamiliar floors, or floors notorious for being sticky one week and slick the next. But, dear Amy, they do not have to look silly. I've even gotten compliments about how nice they looked! You gotta wear Peds with Class! Wear a bowtie with it!
I also agree about powder and dance wax, to some degree. There are some floors that are so bad that no matter what shoes you wear or even Peds, you'll go home with tired knees from all the sticking. Dawn Hampton brings cornmeal wherever she goes. I've even bottled the stuff and named it "Slippery Sh-t", with her approval. It sure has come in handy on rare ocassions, but we'd never put it over an entire floor, as it really is slippery as sh-t! It's only for your own shoes. I also got some "Dance Wax", which is also used for bowling alleys. Same thing. But only if all else fails!
Back to why I tried to revive this thread-BALBOA!!
With the NYC Balboa Weekend less than 2 months off, and many many more NY'ers dancing Bal, I wanted to discuss what's best for Balboa.
Slippery shoes. You want to be able to slide easily. Most people prefer leather bottoms. I love my Aris Allens. Some guys like loafers with leather bottoms. I've heard that lifts for women is best, as women are on their soles most of the time. If your shoes stick, you'll have more of a tendency to bounce and lose the all-important smoothness of the dance.
Quoted from "Atalanta" emergency solution. there ya go. it's not your first choice, but if you hafta, you hafta. i think it's fine to have some in the dance bag for unfamiliar floors, and you're right -- classes don't count. but i'm being admittedly snobby toward those who think peds = a-ok nightly dance wear.
It's my default (and usually only) option. I dance so infrequently I don't want to invest in a pair of dance shoes (even 4.00 K-Mart sneakers that I chrome myself). I keep a pair of peds in my bag just in case I actually wind up dancing (which only happens maybe a total of 5 dances a year). I'm not particularly about the fashion statement I making.
Back to why I tried to revive this thread-BALBOA!!
With the NYC Balboa Weekend less than 2 months off, and many many more NY'ers dancing Bal, I wanted to discuss what's best for Balboa.
Slippery shoes. You want to be able to slide easily. Most people prefer leather bottoms. I love my Aris Allens. Some guys like loafers with leather bottoms. I've heard that lifts for women is best, as women are on their soles most of the time. If your shoes stick, you'll have more of a tendency to bounce and lose the all-important smoothness of the dance.
There was a big discussion about this on Balboanation, and a lot of ladies love the tango shoes, as they have the heel, are made for dancing, and have hard leather soles. http://www.taratangoshoes.com is very popular.
I have their 3" malenas in red and they are totally hot. I also have on order the black cuban heel Ellas. They give you lift, stability, and slide.
The thing is, most of these higher heels, you have to decide that you are going to dance balboa all night or it really changes the way you lindy (at least for me).
They also really change the way you dance balboa, giving you the "lean" as a follower that you normally are creating by being on the balls of your feet.
I would also mention that heel slides are much easier in cuban heels (1 1/2")than in 3" heels. :D
Quoted from "oopsmybad" Is there an easy way to replace the hard leather soles yourself, or are we stuck with cobblers for that one?
I actually have a sheet of hard leather (and chrome leather) I use to do my shoes. Costs 20- 30 and will give you enough for between 5-10 pairs of shoes depending on how large the bottoms are.
Now if I can only find shoes in my size....
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
Quoted from "oopsmybad" Is there an easy way to replace the hard leather soles yourself, or are we stuck with cobblers for that one?
I actually have a sheet of hard leather (and chrome leather) I use to do my shoes. Costs 20- 30 and will give you enough for between 5-10 pairs of shoes depending on how large the bottoms are.
Now if I can only find shoes in my size....
ok, but what kind of tools are you using to carve up hard leather? i watched my a cobbler do it and the process seemed to be awfully machine-intensive.
Quote ...powders and the like are poor, lazy, cheap substitutes for proper shoes.
Aww, hey now... don't confuse broke for cheap. Some of us are struggling just to get into venues, let alone pay for shoes. (Although this thread will help.) 30 may be a good investment, but you have to have some money to make an investment. Agreed, uneven floors are a very, very bad idea, but people resorting to shoe-substitutes aren't necessarily cheap and lazy.
Quoted from "oopsmybad" Is there an easy way to replace the hard leather soles yourself, or are we stuck with cobblers for that one?
I actually have a sheet of hard leather (and chrome leather) I use to do my shoes. Costs 20- 30 and will give you enough for between 5-10 pairs of shoes depending on how large the bottoms are.
Now if I can only find shoes in my size....
ok, but what kind of tools are you using to carve up hard leather? i watched my a cobbler do it and the process seemed to be awfully machine-intensive.
Piece of plywood underneath. Good knife with a sharp blade:
And don't rush! I'll make a few groves and make the cuts deeper each time. If you have a dremel or router that would probably work as well.
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
Quote ...powders and the like are poor, lazy, cheap substitutes for proper shoes.
Aww, hey now... don't confuse broke for cheap. Some of us are struggling just to get into venues, let alone pay for shoes. (Although this thread will help.) 30 may be a good investment, but you have to have some money to make an investment. Agreed, uneven floors are a very, very bad idea, but people resorting to shoe-substitutes aren't necessarily cheap and lazy.
-m(tg)
Just don't use powder or anything with a residue - so not fair to other dancers who have slicker shoes and it still will leave the floor unpredictable (and piss off the venue owners!!).
Personally I have nothing against Peds. If you can't find Peds in your size you can also buy pantyhose and cut the tops.
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
I went to Duane Reade, but they have about 5 different kinds of "Kushy Feet". Which kind did you use???
Sorry, That I didn't answer sooner but I had to go to Duane Reade to check them out. Our big feet need "Foot Tubes by Kushy Feet". I feel silly writing these names.
How to chrome yourself! FLOOR & SHOE RELATIONSHIPS 2004
fiftynites
FLOOR AND SHOE RELATIONSHIPS
by
Fiftynites
(from the Yehoodi Website, deleted from Yehoodi.com when they got a new server, lost on my pc somewhere, but luckily found on Google 2004 as it was copied to the tcswing.com website in 2001)
A couple of years ago, I asked a very good local dancer how he could wear sneakers and dance without messing up his knees. He quietly told me that he put something on the bottom of his shoes and sneakers to turn and slide better. I got the idea that I uncovered some kind of secret and I better not pursue the conversation. I thought that Bleyers were the only thing to dance on! At Catalina last year, I found out that the LA style dancers sometimes glue something called Chrome Leather to the bottom of their shoes.
Dancing an average of 5 nights a week for many years, I began asking lots more questions and was lucky to work 2 blocks from a wholesale shoe supply company. I began many experiments and thought I'd share them with you.
As I am quite sure that I do not know it all, I ask that any of you that have experimented yourselves would add or correct what I have written here, and this will be edited and corrected at a later time.
(Note: This was probably originally written in 1999, but is edited in September 2004 If anyone can add, correct, change anything here, please do so and I’ll update it.)
DESCRIPTION OF FLOORS - WOOD
"A+" quality-the best wood floor like "A" but sprung, like Memories in Orange County, Ca.
"A" quality-well cared for oak or maple wood floor. I have seen floors like this in NY at most of the dance schools. You can dance with any shoe bottoms or even in socks and feel great. BUT some of these floors can get sticky if the A/C can’t handle the body heat or the humidity makes the floor damp.
"B" quality-Usually like above but not consistent with each visit or various places on the floor. Sometimes a bit too slippery. Another type I'd put in this category are those temporary floors put down for dance events and competitions. But some of those could very well fit in lower categories especially when one trips on the joints.
"C" quality-Not too bad, but usually rough. Not very slick. Not the best surface to dance on.
"D" quality-Very inconsistent. Could be a good floor if cared for. Drinks and food that are spilled on them aren't cleaned very well, or seep into the unsealed wood.
"F" quality-Rough plywood, rubberized wood. Good "A" floors that are warped, has holes, nails or screws sticking up. Floors that were never made for dancing.
MARBLE, TILE, TERRAZZO, CONCRETE, ASPHALT
Although some of these are better surfaces are better to dance on than others, and even different types of the above surfaces can be better than others, anything else as far as I'm concerned is not ideal as there is insufficient give in the floor to act as a shock absorber. You will get tired quicker, your feet and knees will ache quicker and you just won't last as long. Besides the hardness, these surfaces are sometimes very rough and you will grab the floor making it very hard to dance. I've found hard leather best for most of these surfaces. Also sole savers (see later on)
SAND, GRASS, DIRT, CARPET, BOARDWALKS, BRICKS
Barefoot on sand and grass are fun. Hard leather is best on carpeting but can sometimes be too slippery. Sometimes there are so many ridges on some of these surfaces that if you don't have rounded edges to your shoes, you will keep tripping in the cracks.
UNDERWATER
Tom Weiser and I are probably the first people to dance under water. We did a swingout 40 feet down near the Casino in Catalina in June 1999! It was fun but we really needed music! We wore fins on our feet.
DESCRIPTION OF SHOES
I have always been on my feet a lot and love to be comfortable all the time. Shoes are personal taste and sometimes looks are more important to some people than others. I prefer comfort over looks. You can have both! I have found that the most comfortable sneakers are Nike Air in all styles, and Rockport shoes with only their lightweight "Rockport" bottoms (they come two ways). Both are very lightweight and absorb shock well for any use.
I have danced on many other brands and have personally found those two my most comfortable. Some of the dance shoes sold for swing dancers have very poor cushioning - my feet get tired in them after just a few hours of dancing or walking.
The arch support is also very important. Some shoes have very little which will tire the feet out sooner. I have been fortunate enough to have a podiatrist friend who gave me very expensive orthotics, which are custom made shoe inserts which keep your feet and arches in their perfectly relaxed natural position. You can get very inexpensive do-it-yourself orthotics at large sporting goods stores. I've heard some people happy with other types of arch supports and feet
insoles. If your feet hurt at all, do something to change it, they
shouldn't hurt no matter how much you dance.
DESCRIPTION OF BOTTOMS
RUBBER and PLASTICS-like the bottoms of sneakers and many shoes. These bottoms can sometimes be good, but if your shoes grab the floor, your knee is going to take torque that will not only tire you out, but can do damage to the ligaments and tendons. Depending on the surface, some rubber bottoms can work, but mostly very hard rubber. I've heard of some dancers letting their sneakers wear down to a smooth surface so they can slide and turn well, but this lessens the cushioning your shoes need to absorb shock.
The first time I danced with my regular sneakers on a good wood floor, I loved the bounciness and cushioning I felt.
CHROME LEATHER-In L.A., the dancers talk about "Chrome Leather", or "Chrome". This feels like a rough suede. (Yes, in 1999, LA dancers were the only ones I ever heard were wearing chrome!) It is very durable and you can control the slickness by roughing them up with a wire brush or just walking on the sidewalk with them if they get too slick for you. I just walk in them like regular shoes and they are always perfect for me. (I chromed my first pair of shoes on last November, and they are still good-and I walk in them a lot!) The only problem is don't get them wet, you will stick to some surfaces and slip on others. So don't wear them in the rain and keep away from water on dance floors.
Chromed shoes give you great control of stopping or spinning or turning or sliding, all dependent on the floor. It will not help you on sticky wood floors.
Chrome is only for wood floors. The L.A. and D.C. dancers go to regular shoe stores to have their shoes chromed, and pay between $25 and $30 a pair. When I tried to do it here in N.Y. the shoemakers had no idea what I was talking about, so I went to a shoe supply company and found the stuff.
I purchased a large piece of chrome leather for $45.00. This was enough for about 10 or 11 pairs of shoes (that's about $4 per pair of shoes!). I glued it on myself. The stuff I got was about 1/8" thick. I've seen dancers with thicker chrome.
HARD LEATHER-When you dance in hard leather shoes, you can slide really well on good wood floors. Depending on your dance style, you could do what Peter Loggins does, switch between leather and chrome leather shoes when you want to change the moves you want to make on the floor! Hard leather is also very good for most concrete, terrazzo, tile, and concrete, except slick tile or marble surfaces where chrome or even sneaker type bottoms would do.
I found regular leather shoes to have very little ability to absorb shock, so I did something very interesting....I took a pair of Nike Air running style sneakers, and had my shoemaker glue on hard leather. It was amazing! I had both the shock absorption and the slickness I needed on concrete and other rough hard surfaces.
I got a one by two foot sheet of Italian leather for $15 (enough for probably 5 pairs of sneakers). The shoemaker charged me $10 to cut them into about 12 parts and glue them on. Normally, he would charge only $5, but these sneakers had ridges on them so the leather had to be cut all over. I couldn't cut this myself.
The first time I tried this, the 1/4" thick leather only lasted about 3 weeks. But this was dancing on concrete with sand all over it in Catalina for 5 days and nights, dancing at 3rd Street in LA and then dancing on asphalt in NY for an afternoon. It was so worth it!!
SOLE SAVERS
Another experiment. This is thin hard plastic I glued on the soles of some old sneakers. They cut down on most of the grabbing, but do not slide very well. They cut down on enough sticking that I'd even call them "knee savers". I've been walking on these for months and they don't seem to wear out or prevent the cushioning the sneakers usually gives me. A pair of sole savers cost me $2.00 and I glued it on myself.
NOTES ON STYLES OF DANCING AND BOTTOMS OF SHOES
If you are performing and doing aerials, hard and chrome leather may not be advisable as you need "grab". Some performers I spoke to used chrome only on the front of their soles so they could both slide with the soles and grab with the heels.
WHERE TO GET THE STUFF
In Noho, there is a wholesale shoe supply store at 346 Lafayette Street on the west side of the street just 2 doors north of Bleeker Street. They are open 6:30 A.M. to 2 P.M. Sunday thru Friday. They will sell to anyone although they are wholesale. They will do mail order for those of you out of the city.
Kaufman Shoe Repair Supplies, Inc., 346 Lafayette Street, New York, NY 10012, 212-777-1700.
Make sure you use their lingo-and I doubt you can get just enough leather for one or two pairs of shoes, these guys are wholesalers!
Chrome Leather-tell them the thickness you want (I think 1/8" is good), and about how large a piece (I think they are all about the size I got-for about 10 pairs). It is always grey.
Italian or German strap leather-This is the hard leather. Women's is a bit less than 1/4" thick and men's is a bit more than 1/4". You get enough for about 4 or 5 pairs of shoes for about $15.
HOW TO CHROME YOUR OWN SHOES IN FIVE MINUTES
I have chromed almost everything: sneakers with uneven bottoms, patent leather shoes with a golf shoe bottom (no cleats though), and rubber bottomed shoes. It doesn't matter if the surface is uneven, rough or in parts.
Buy a bottle or small can of Weldwood Contact Cement (or some other brand). It will cost $2-5.
1. Put the shoes/sneakers over the chrome, draw an exact outline. You can do just one and then make a copy of it when you cut that one up for the other shoe.
2. Using sharp strong scissors, cut out about 1/8" smaller than your outline. If you don't, parts of chrome will stick out creating a sloppy look.
3. If parts of the shoe do not make contact with the floor, you don't need to chrome those parts. (Like between the heel and sole.)
4. Clean the bottoms with soap and water or rubbing alcohol. Get all dirt and soap off the bottoms. Make sure it is totally dry.
5. Apply contact cement to both the bottom of the shoe and the chrome.Enough so the surface is fully covered, but not dripping with it. Sometimes the chrome will absorb a light coating, so do it again. Try not to get any glue on the edges of your shoes or on your hands, as sometime it's hard to get off.
6. Let it dry fully.
7. Carefully put the chrome onto the shoe bottom. Then press it on firmly, or hammer it on (like the shoemakers do!)
8. Close the glue bottle/can firmly, as it will dry up if you don't.
9. Dance!!
IMPORTANT NOTE: If the chrome didn’t adhere, you need to either sand the shoe bottom first if it was slick to begin with, OR you need to clean it better (too late now!). Just apply another coating to both surfaces, and make real sure they dry before putting it together.
You can probably search around for a shoemaker that can do all of the above for you, but you will pay much more than if you at least get the chrome leather or hard leather first. Be careful, my shoemaker tried to keep all the leftover leather which I can use for another few pairs of shoes.
Don't tell anyone else your secret!
Please post any comments here or e-mail michaelingbar@yahoo.com with any corrections or comments you’d like to make.
Page(s): 1 2 ... Next > (52 items total, 30 per page)
HepCat Jack
This was originally a thread on the Ballroom MIT discussionlist back in the early 1990's. The FAQ was available on a FTP site somewhere (ftp.std.com I think) I had saved this copy. It has information both on dance floors, shoe types and what you should NOT add to dance floors.
--
From corr hal.hahnemann.edu Fri Mar 18 09:30:09 1994
Subject: Here's a dance floor FAQ of captured msgs...
DANCEFLOOR FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions--and answers)
Description: Finishing dance floors
Having just completed yet another refinishing job on dance floors
I have gained a moderate amount of knowledge in this field. I must say
this is a job that is VERY labor intensive. It also requires patience
I do not recommend Polyurethane, although it looks "pretty" it is not
functional as a dance floor. I do recommend "Dura-seal" the kind without
Polyurethane. In the color of your choice. Keep in mind not much of the
color will be seen. However, don't mix them because it will be obvious.
Steps:
1. Sand floors remove all of the old finish. Use a drum sander for
the major part of the work and an edge sander for the rest.
2. Throughly clean the floor. But, don't use a liquid, it will cause
you to loose a whole day.
3. Apply the first coat of Dura-seal. There will be three. This should
be the thickest coat. Application instructions are provided on the can
you can follow these for the product. I also recommend the Quart size of
Dura-seal. The gallon size is a different formula which takes longer to
dry.
4. Allow 24 hrs for the first coat to dry.
5. With 100 (00) sand paper remove ALL the dura-seal on the SURFACE
of the floor.
6. apply a second and third coat of dura-seal. Allow 8-12 hrs of
dry time between coats.
7. Remove ALL dura-seal from the surface of the floor. If any dura-seal
remains on the surface of the floor it will feel sticky in dance shoes.
You REALLY want to dance right on the wood of the floor.
Once you have completed this process the floor should last about 20-30
years. If you plan ahead you should be able to finish a floor in about
3 days (depending on the size of the floor). I finished 2600 sq ft.
in three days with one helper.
Good Luck
Mark
________________________________________________________________________
From: ahgberg aol.com
Description: Ballroom Dance Floors-care cleaning & construction
Dear John D. and other dancing colleagues
Over the years , ballroom dancing (dance) floors have been a topic of
endless concern and discussion to both beginning dancers as well as advanced dancers. I have danced on surfaces (represented as dance floors) ranging from wood, black top, bricks, slate, cement and kentile.
The best dance floor I have danced on was referred to as a "sprung" floor. This type of floor I'm told provides some resiliency to the dancers which resiliency is not provided by other surfaces. Tongue and groove
hardwood(maple or oak) are best for durability and comfort to the dancing feet. I'm told that the wood is laid over a base of plywood and the plywood is laid over a variety of wood firring strips that all contractors do not agree upon. Most were in agreement that laying the wood surface directly over a concrete slab would cost the least but would be the floor least likely to survive heavy traffic or maintenance. I will not question their logic. I do know from experience that the ideal situation is not always attainable when it comes to finding comfortable dancefloors.
When I have danced for any length of time (over and hour or two) on a
floor laid over concrete I get what is known as "shin splints". The ailment
occurs the next day (or at least the symptoms) up the front of my lower legs where the muscle (s) attach to the "shin bone". I have found the same problem when dancing on "beautifully kept" gym floors used for "sports" and ballroom dancefloor alternatively. The wood on gym floors is usually laid on end (as opposed to the flat side) and then the surface which is usually very beautiful to the eye is provided with a protection of some nonskid polyurethane lacquer. For basketball players in "sneakers" or "other rubber soled foot gear" it is ideally suited.
For my thin soled capezios I find the floor a bit too slow and too "hard"..A
FLOOR , BARE OF LACQUER AND/OR WAX "POLISHED BY THOUSANDS FEET OF BALLROOM DANCERS" SEEMS THE BEST SURFACE TO DANCE ON. THE LESS WAX YOU PUT ON IT THE BETTER IT FEELS TO THE DANCING FEET OF BALLROOM DANCERS.
I have encountered beautiful "to the eye" highly polished floors with silicone wax protectant that is very dangeroous to ballroom dancers. I SUPPOSE YOU NEED TO VACUUM IT AND PERHAPS KEEP IT FROM "MOISTURE" WHICH WARPS THE WOOD AND "CUPS" THE INDIVIDUAL PLANKING. THE LESS MAINTENACE THE BETTER IT SEEMS. I have tried various resins (ROSINS) on my leather soled dance shoes but I have found it to be trublesome and "messy".
I havbe also tried balloroom shoes with "suede leather" on the soles. Although they inhibited "slipping and sliding" on a fast floor somehow I didn't like the feel of the floor so I went from what Capezio called "a ballroom shoe" to a "character" shoe. Until I discussed this difference with the vendor I wasn't totally aware of the difference it would make in my dancing comfort. Hope I have helped with this rambling contribution.
sincerely A HGberg aol.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Description: Re: Ballroom Dance Floors-care cleaning & construction
In article <CMnzz2.BM3 cbnews.cb.att.com> katinsky stumpy.geography.wisc.edu writes:
>
>>>The best dance floor I have danced on was referred to as a "sprung" floor.
>>>This type of floor I'm told provides some resiliency to the dancers which
>>>resiliency is not provided by other surfaces. Tongue and groove
>>>hardwood(maple or oak) are best for durability and comfort to the dancing
>>>feet. I'm told that the wood is laid over a base of plywood and the plywood
>>>is laid over a variety of wood firring strips that all contractors do not
>>>agree upon.
>
>>And for added comfort, you can put rubber strips beneath the firing strips.
>>I was looking into getting a dance floor for the basement of the house
>>I just bought -- until I discovered the entire upper floor is all hardwood.
>>So the joists should provide natural springing, especially since it's
>>on the upper level!
>
>And for an added little bit of fakelore:
>
>A friend of mine, WHO SWEARS THIS IS TRUE ;-) , says he danced on a floor
>constructed with used tires salvaged from a junk yard. The construction is the
>same as above except the firring strips (I assume that is what they are called
>although he didn't use that expression) are in a grid pattern -- two layers, one
>laid out north-south over another laid out east-west. The two layers were
>separated by a layer of tires placed strategically at every grid intersection.
>
>I suppose if it doesn't work as a dance floor, it would make a great indoor
>trampolene.
>
Tires sound too springy.
Any arrangement where there is a vertical line from the surface
of the floor entirely through wood to concrete will have zero spring
at that point, since the compressibility of wood is too small to matter
for this purpose.
Here is what I posted a while back about what I
got done in the back room of my house. It is definitely good. Some other
people have used this method, and agree. (Should this be in the
dancing-FAQ?):
>From dgolber aero.org (Dave Golber)
In article <1lbjuuINNt03 darkstar.UCSC.EDU> sutin helios.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin) writes:
>
>What exactly is the construction of a "sprung wood floor" -- does it
>really have springs, how big are they, and is there some kind of damping
>used?
>
Sometimes, I think, "sprung" means the floor is on wood beams above
an open space ... So if you want one, all you gotta do is
dig a basement underneath ...
More seriously: we had a wood floor put in our back room (16'x24')
for dance. We had it "sprung". Here's what goes down, starting from
the bottom:
Original cruddy concrete slab.
Special very-liquid (and expensive) concrete to level slab.
Plastic film vapor barrier
Little rubber thingies, about 2" square and 1/2" thick,
specially made for this sort of thing.
1/2" plywood running THIS way
1/2" plywood running THAT way
3/4" oak strips.
Finish.
It was rather expensive ... the special concrete to level the
old slab was a good part of it.
Apparently some architects and floor people know all about this stuff,
if you just say "dance floor" or "sprung floor". On the other hand,
we had some floor guys come over to look at it to bid on it, and they
weren't interested enough to give us a reply of any kind!
The result: when you jump up and down, someone can see the floor give under
you. The result to you: no pain!
As for finish: gettinng the finish you want may be hard. The typical
"dance" floor is much too slick for folk-dancer types. My suggestion
is to get a cooperative contractor, and have him do samples
until you like that sample.
Give me a call if you want to talk more. I could look up my records.
Dave Golber
310/391-1269
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>From dgolber uniblab.aero.org Fri Mar 12 17:15:56 1993
Posted-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 93 14:15:08 PST
From: dgolber uniblab.aero.org (Dave Golber)
To: tommy archimedes.ae.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Dancefloors
I am assisting in the construction of a dancefloor. The space is a large
commercial storefront (used to be a Kinko's copies) with a concrete slab
floor. If you could answer a coupla questions, I would be grateful:
1. How far apart were the rubber thingies spaced? Since you used
plywood running in both directions, I assume they were spaced the
same in both directions.
...One foot on centers in both directions.
The plywood was one layer running parallel to one wall, one layer running
parallel to the other wall. No necessary relation to the spacing of the
rubber thingies. Call me and I'll give you the brand name of them.
The whole thing is known to the right kind of architects as a "dance floor",
I believe.
2. How were the edges of your plywood sheets connected to one another?
Not at all. The whole thing is held together (I think) by the nails which
hold the strips to the plywood. They go through both layers.
(I'm not sure of this point. Call me
and I'll check the records. If they don't indicate, I could call the guy
who did the work.)
3. How bad (how do you quantify this sort of thing?) does the slab have
to be to require leveling cement, and what are the consequenses if
it is not used?
In my case, the slab was really tilted. Had to be done.
The floor guy cared enough about flatness (as opposed to tilt) that he
used roofing felt, cut to fit, to even up depressions that were perhaps 1/8"
deep across several feet. I can't tell you just _how_ necessary this was.
4. What would be the consequences of leaving out the vapor barrier?
My impression from what I've read is that the vapor barrior is real important,
since moisture from/through the slab can do awful things to the oak.
Like making it expand, and rise up like there were gophers underneath.
5. Your opinion of this design:
3/4" oak flooring on 3/4" plywood running only one direction
over 2"x4" studs laid directly upon concrete slab. (possibly
anchored ?) Studs to be spaced more or less at standard joist spacing
for 3/4" decking both THIS way and THAT way. The studs would lie with
the 4" face vertical, giving (nominally) a 4" clearance between slab
and decking.
This will of course be springier between joists and stiffer over them.
My comments:
(1) Yes, you need a vapor barrier.
(2) You will have NO spring over the joists. Wood doesn't compress.
(3) You've used 4 3/4 3/4 inches of vertical space in your room.
It you have a high ceiling, it doesn't matter. (In my case, it did.)
Total height in my case: 1/2 1/2 1/2 3/4 inches.
-----------------------
Give me a call, and I can look up names, etc. 310/391-1269. Los A,CA evenings.
Also: there are lots of do it yourself books about floors. They don't much
talk about making them springy, but they'll tell you about vapor barriers, etc.
I don't do floors myself, but I consider myself a fairly experienced wood
worker. I was considering an arrangement maybe like this:
1/2x2 inch, on flat side, running north/south
2x4 on flat side, running EW
1/2x2, on flat side, running N/S
plywood
oak.
The idea would have been that the 1/2x2s and 2x4s would be arranged in
such a way that in no place was there a straight line entirely though wood
to concrete. But then one has to figure out spacings, so as to get the
right amount of spring. And the loss of vertical space would be
1/2 2 1/2 3/4.
Having seen what my floor guy did, I think it's better, with the possible
caveat that some arrangement like the one I was thinking of might be less
sensitive to flatness of the underlying slab.
Dave Golber
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tpower daisy.cc.utexas.edu (Thomas Power)
Description: Re: Ballroom Dance Floors-care cleaning & construction
(I am having editing problems on the machine that I get news on,
so I wrote this elsewhere; please forgive the non-standard
attribution.)
--(stuff deleted about sandwich floor over cruddy concrete...)--
This was originally a reply to a query of mine asking for
dancefloor information, because I was about to be involved in
the construction of a 1500 s.f. ballroom floor.
We followed this plan, after having gotten exactly the same
story (as well as a nice discount on the "little rubber
thingies") from a local floor builder. Fortunately, the
leveling concrete was not necessary in our case, and we used tar
paper as our vapor barrier. The rubber thingies are stapled to
the bottom of the bottom layer of plywood. I believe we placed
them on 1' centers both directions, but check with a
knowledgeable authority to be sure.
The whole sandwich is held together with the staples or nails
which are shot into the tongues of the flooring strips with a
special pneumatic gun. Our floor guy suggested the staples,
which did work very nicely. (these are very serious staples.)
You must leave space (we were told to leave a half inch) between
the floor structure (plywood as well as flooring) and all walls
in order to accomodate swelling. We were also told to let the
flooring sit for some time (seems like it was > 1 week) in the
room to allow it to shrink or swell in response to the usual
level of humidity in the room, which may be quite different than
that where the flooring was stored before.
This makes for a very nice floor. We were very pleased with it;
it was not squishy by any means, but it was certainly a far cry
from dancing on tiles laid directly on concrete.
I say "was" because not long after we built this floor, the
studio was flooded by a plumbing accident in an adjacent business
and our floor was ruined. The whole thing was torn out and
rebuilt (exactly the way we had done it) by a professional
flooring company (paid for with insurance .)
My only regret is that the floor was finished with what I
believe was a polyurethane type finish. This made a O.K.
dancing surface, because it was not put on too thick -- the
texture of the wood was still apparent.(unlike the very glassy
appearance of modern maple gymnasium floors)
Nevertheless, I was hoping to follow the suggestion of another
person who replied to my query and just saturate the floor with
linseed oil after sanding it down. Once the floor has soaked
the oil in for a couple of days the excess is wiped off, and the
floor can apparently be used in a matter of days. I was hoping
for this kind of finish because I am in agreement with the
person who mentioned here that his (her?) favorite floor was bare
wood worn smooth by dancing, and I figured this was as close as
we could get and still take proper care of the wood.
--
Thomas Power Buy the best mousetrap.
Dept. of Engineering Mechanics
University of Texas at Austin Opinions courtesy of myself only.
tommy archimedes.ae.utexas.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ecb world.std.com (Eileen C Bauer)
Description: Re: Ballroom Dance Floors - construction
eijkhout cupid.cs.utk.edu (Victor Eijkhout) writes:
>In article <CMoxo5.784 cbnews.cb.att.com> The Wilde One <JCWILDE acad.keyanoc.ab.ca> writes:
> Tis isn't intended as a flame, but ANY arrangement which
> consists entirely of wood (and air) MUST necessarily have some
> point at which there is a straight line entirely though wood to
> concrete.
>This is not intended as a flame either, but I think you are wrong.
>Make a 3-layer arrangement as follows:
>layer 1: strips running NS at x-coordinates 0,2,4,6, ...
>layer 2: strips runing EW at unspecified y-coordinates
>layer 3: strips running NS at x-coordinates 1,3,5,7, ...
>It is obvious( ) that this will be a springy arrangement. Now
>the only problem is that the NS strips have to be close enough that
>the EW strips will not crack. It may be wise to make layer 2 out
>of a tougher material. And putting the NS strips closer together
>makes the springiness tougher, putting them further apart makes the
>spring action looser.
>( ) layer 1 makes contact with layer 2 at even x-coordinates,
>layer 3 makes contact with layer 2 at odd x-coordinates. Hence
>there is no point where 3 layers touch.
Saw the above setup described in Dance magazine. Strips should not be
placed so that longest side is vertical, because this would give very
little bounce. Placing the longest side horizontal lets the wood give
way more, but also puts the most weight on the weakest edge of the wood. Therefore you would have to interleave the strips closer than you would otherwise. Maybe every 6in? Normal floors have beams ever 1 foot or so...
-eileen
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: prodnzr aol.com
Description: Re: Wax on dance floors.
>I have heard various dancers and teachers recommend the application of
>baby oil, talcum powder or powdered laundry detergent to the soles of
>dance shoes, to compensate for floors that are too slick or too
>sticky.
As someone who has maintained a 2500 sq ft maple dance floor for 6 years. I would like to pass on a few helpful suggestions.
1st) Never, never, allow someone to put dance wax down on a dance floor. If someone falls down in these litigious times the fallee will probably end up owning your ass sets. Dance wax is used by shufflers who don't pick up their feet. As such they try to minimize friction by making a dance floor slick. When someone with proper dance shoes steps on the waxed spot it is treacherous. The chrome suede soles are called non skid because they allow you to slide your foot when light to moderate pressure is applied. When firm pressure is applied to the shoe, the fuzz on the sole bites down and one stops quickly. A good dancer can pirouette (spin) 5-7 times on a "slow" floor. I think that should be proof that a floor is fast enough.
2nd) As an emergency, if someone throws wax down a good antidote is to brush it inward to as small a spot as possible and the put Tide detergent down over and around the affected area. (Others don't seem to work as well). The grit in the Tide will slow the floor down although it takes weeks to get the
surface back to what it was.
3rd) For gyms or floors where ballet rosin has been used, try a lightly damp mop to clean followed by dry floor mop with a very few drops of boiled linseed oil. Go up and down the floor in both a linear and crosswise manner and the floor can be improved temporarily.
By the way all we ever do is dry mop once a week
I'll also pass on a saying I'll never forget. I once asked the 6 time Latin
Champion Lorraine from Sweden what one should do when the music
was fast and the floor slick. Lorraine responded" The floor is not fast or
slow, only more or less forgiving! " Just as you can STAND on ice without
falling, take a big step and your are pondering the blueness of the sky. So
it is with dance. Get over your feet and no floor is too fast.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hage netcom.com (Carl Hage)
Description: Re: Talc, etc.
Dancers and particularly dance teachers should NEVER recommend application of substances to a dance floor (other than by the proprietor) or to dance shoes which could be transferred to the floor. This is VERY dangerous and can cause people to fall and get badly hurt. The best way to compensate for a bad floor is to change shoes. Adding substances to
the floor (or your shoes and then to the floor) almost always creates
an uneven distribution which will cause people to slip.
Adding substances to your shoes (other than water) at best is only
temporary and is still inconsistent.
In many cases, a floor will seem too sticky or too slick because someone
is wearing improper shoes. In other cases, it's a matter of preference,
e.g. many older dancers like to shuffle across the floor rather than
step. I remember one competition where a person was stepping in a pile of soap flakes (put on carpet making a big mess) which then ended up making slippery spots on the floor. This floor was PERFECT! The person adding the soap was not wearing normal dance shoes with suede soles so she may have thought it was slow. The person was repeatedly told not to add substances to the floor and did it anyway. Unfortunately she was not disqualified.
The competition had to be stopped several times so the floor could be
cleaned. I think USABDA should have a rule that anyone caught adding
substances to a floor at a competition will be immediately disqualified
(or shot).
If you wear suede shoes you can compensate from a slick floor by putting
water on your soles, and a slightly moistened sole will not transfer water to the floor. However, do not make puddles of water on the floor for someone else to inadventantly step in. Adding water will not help if the the floor is slick from added shuffleboard wax or soap. In this case, the entire floor must be cleaned and everyones shoes must be individually cleaned. (That is why a person adding soap to a floor should be shot.)
You can also brush suede soles to compensate for a slightly slick floor.
If the floor is too sticky you should change shoes, perhaps to an old
pair where the suede is polished or a pair with leather soles.
If you are organizing a dance and need to fix a sticky floor, I know of a
case where a large floor was fixed by adding a liquid which can be spread
evenly with a mop which when dried left an almost even film of wood dust
(I think). When first applied, it is still somewhat spotty, but after a
few weeks of grinding in by dancers, it was OK. I don't know the brand,
but if someone really wants to know I can try to find out.
Another solution for a sticky (or possible too slick) floor is to buff
the floor with a steel wool mat (by machine of course). This worked
in one case I know of for a too sticky floor, but it took a couple of tries
and then a month or so of dancers "buffing" the floor before it was
good.
Remember, don't add soap, talc, or wax-- change to leather shoes!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: corr hal.hahnemann.edu
Description: trouble with part-time dance floors
Hi, all. I'm a swing dancer (among other things) and went to a dance this
past Saturday wher the ballroom floor was horrendous. The swing dance society rotates through several ballroom facilities. The most frequently used is at an Irish center. They must have waxed or refinished it over the summer. The last dance and this dance the surface was really slow, possibly sticky. I helped set up and after kneeling to tape the table coverings I received a black oily mark on my tan pants.
This place doubles as a catering facility and is always short on cash. I
had a similar experience at a swing dance weekend when a workshop was held in a small restaurant dining room. Also a sticky floor. My jazz shoes were trashed on the bottom. We also danced at a catering facility that had ultra slippery floors. The group leaders roughed up their shoe soles with wire brushes and sprinkled a bit of water around to no avail. People were slipping right and left. During the summer the City of Phila. holds outdoor swing band concerts at the waterfront on Thursday evenings. The space in front of the bandstand is concrete. A swing promoter brought a shallow box and poured Ivory Snow (I can't remember if it was powder or flakes) and we rubbed our soles in it to take the stress off our ankles and knees. It seemed to work well.
My question: Do you have any suggestions for cleaning the floors that are sticky, and how long ahead can it be done before a dance. As a volunteer group I'm wondering about the committment needed.
Can anything be done about ultra-slippery floors (other than dancing in
sneakers.) Any tips for quick fixes like the soap flakes? A friend carries a candle in her handbag if the floor is too sticky.
This was the second dance at this facility and I found it really frustrating.
I like to spin and so do the women. I was reduced to pivots for both of us. My knees have been giving me trouble and, in fact, kept me from dancing over the past year. I'm just returning and am pacing my involvement. I used to open and close the dances. (7:30 to Midnight.) Any help is appreciated. Paul
=========================================================================
From: cn9gr8ad lacerta.unm.edu (J.W. VanDenburg)
I've only ran across sticky performance floors once, and for that
we used one of those extra-wide dust mops FULL of dust to coat
the surface, and had everyone scoot around to grind it in.
> Can anything be done about ultra-slippery floors (other than dancing in
>sneakers.)
You might try resin and a cat-box.'' We use it all the time
for slipperly dancefloors like Marly(sp?) or places that are
maintained like a bowling alley. You can get it through the
local ballet outfitter in leu of other resources.
Water is really dangerous since it only provides a patchy
surface and can be like dancing in cleats!
> Any tips for quick fixes like the soap flakes? A friend carries a candle in
>her handbag if the floor is too sticky.
for the floor or her shoes!!?? ;-). Wax is extremely dangerous! We had a performance once where the candles on stage fell over and wax was left all over. People fell (and got injured) continuously
the likes of which i have never seen before or since. They immediately redesigned the set before the next performance.
--
...je
...cn9gr8ad lacerta.unm.edu
===================================================================
Wax will help on slippery floors.
It won't, however, do any good on ULTRA-slippery floors since these
tend to be the "sealed" variety. What will help, however, provided
that you are using "chrome"-soles, is keeping the soles wet. Possible
ways:
a) Water. Tends to dry with surprising speed. And is hard to control.
Your shoes will be either very sticky or not sticky at all.
b) Coke, beer, lemonade etc. Sounds horrible, but does help.
(especially if you find yourself on a slippery floor without
having been prepared for it).
c) Oil. More exact: high-quality gun-oil. I know that it sounds silly
(I mean, after all oil is supposed to make things even more
slippery, not sticky), but it really works. BUT: Oil might damage
the uppers!
All three methods would not normally hurt a sealed floor. They might,
however, pose a danger to others who are using the same floor as a gym
(running around in sport-shoes and such...).
Hope that's of some help
Sven
======================================================================
From: MX "ernst ai.univie.ac.at" 21-SEP-1993 10:33:04.12
From: Ernst Buchberger <ernst ai.univie.ac.at>
Paul,
I found your inquiry on the net regarding treatment of bad dance floors.
As you noticed, there are two problems:
sticky floors and ultra-slippery floors.
For sticky floors I use wax. You may either use a rasp to spread
the (candle-)wax over the floor, or else prepare the wax-flakes at home
which makes the procedure quite quick before you start to dance.
As for slippery floors, there are various possibilities:
roughing up shoe soles helps a little, but not very much.
I have used washing powder (detergent:spread it on the floor).
A more extreme method is the use of rosin or else the combination
of a mixture of rosin, a floor cleaning lotion and coke.
Warning: the people owning the dance floor will not like the rosin
because it may harm the floor surface (but it saves my ankles...).
As for my practical experience:
I have used the washing powder when dancing argentine tango,
and I have used rosin for flamenco. The "combined magic potion" I did not
yet try out for myself, it has been recommended to me by a flamenco teacher.
I suppose you will not use the rosin method for swing dancing,
but in flamenco you would like to do away with any slipperiness of
the floor as much as possible.
Hope that helps,
Best regards,
Ernst
(BTW, I should like to hear about your experiences or any other
"special recipes" you run across).
fiftynites
PEDS
I almost forgot about Peds. A few years ago, I met a dancer from Gainsville, Florida. She wore Peds over her sneakers, which are also called sockless socks .
I have been spreading my love of Peds for many years now, as they are such an easy and quick fix for sticky floors or for when you forget your dance shoes. They slip over your shoes and if you get the right color, you can t even tell they re there. They are easier than tape, and don t mess up the floor like tape does.
They do take some getting used to, as they can be very slippery when clean and new. Do not try them on floors that are slick to begin with unless you are a proficient ice skater!
I have only been able to find them in Walmart, Kmart, Duane Reade, but I guess they can be found in any big department store or drug store. They should cost around 3 or 4 for 3 pair, but you can also sometimes find a great deal on a dozen. They come in black, white, and flesh (ugh!)
They come in regular and large. I can just about get the regular ones stretched over my regular shoes, but not my Nikes, which I need large. I wear a 9 to 10 size shoe (or 43 to 44 for the Europeans). I ve tried other brands, but Peds seem to be the only ones that work well and last a long time. Get the nylon type, not cotton. I ve worn some many times, maybe 10 or 25 time even when there are holes in them, they still work, as you can put the holes by your heels. I keep them in a small baggie and they go everywhere.
Hey, you never know when there will be music and someone to dance with when you least expect it!
NEON
Didn't BlueEllen write that first post Michael?
mrz
If you chrome your own, shop around. People seem to love to go to shoe repair shops and such but you can also get chrome, hard, or whatever leather from a commercial leather supplier. These places sometimes have a scrap bin where you can sort through and buy stuff by the pound.
I bought a big sheet of nice leather at such a supplier. It had some square holes in it and it was this weird green color, but it was cheap and the space between the holes had enough contiguous leather to chrome two pairs of shoes from toe to heel. I've danced a lot of dances in those shoes and they just keep on goin'!
fiftynites
If you mean the first big one, no, she didn't, but maybe she put it on a thread on some other website somewhere. I wrote it from start to finish.
NEON
That's a pretty amazing undertaking.
Easy
I first read that post a few years ago, and have used the information in it to chrome all of my dance shoes since! Thanks Michael.
fiftynites
Just to bring us up date on this thread and discuss what's best to wear for guys and gals when doing Balboa.....
oopsmybad
Is there an easy way to replace the hard leather soles yourself, or are we stuck with cobblers for that one?
Addict
I have come to agree with the some of the comments in that long email thread on the unintended consequences of dancewax. Somebody at Rhythmic Arts decided to put dancewax on their shoes and it turned the floor uneven. More then one person, including myself, fell. One unfortunate dancer ripped a seam in his vintage suit. Not Cool!
hoya01
Uneven? That's like you saying you have a mild dislike for blues dancing. That wax turned spots of that floor into Teflon.
Far as I'm concerned, any idiot bringing dance wax into a place with a nice wood floor should be outed and beat down. If I ever see anyone using dance wax on such a floor, I'll do just that.
MCQ & CHRIS
My shoes are too big for peds but I found a great alternative "Kushy Feet". Duane Reade sells them in the same sections as peds. They are suppose to wrap around one's feet. They work great & look better than peds.
fiftynites
Peds seems to have discontinued their "Extra Large" size which even fit over my Nikes. I keep trying to contact them, but peds.com has not been working for the past year or so.
I went to Duane Reade, but they have about 5 different kinds of "Kushy Feet". Which kind did you use???
rikomatic
I used 50nights instructions to chrome my sneaks. Worked perfect! Thanks!
Flappers, Dandies & Lindy Hoppers Take over Governors Island for the "Jazz Age Lawn Party" (video)
Blowout Final Concert & Dance Competition for 2010 Midsummer Night Swing Festival
Atalanta
Oh that's a killer. I've long said i prefer a sticky or slow floor to an uneven one. Slow, I can adjust for. Dance wax spots can be like black ice -- invisible but deadly!
I think waxes and powders and the like are poor, lazy, cheap substitutes for proper shoes. Hard leather can go anywhere and it's plenty fast.
If one MUST, wax in advance and buff off the excess so the rest of the crowd doesn't suffer for your "art."
I hate to be rude but socks over shoes just look silly and can't possibly perform as well as decent shoes. Should be an emergency solution only. I really don't understand how anyone dancing with any kind of regularity sees this as the default option.
Addict
Agreed, if the floor is even close to decent, hard leather should be enough
lindylicious
if
oopsmybad
not necessarily a default, but when i took some swing/bal classes at the joffrey school (marley floor for ballet), i found my hard leathers soles didn't work all that well and chrome was even worse. surprisingly, peds actually worked best in that situation. good thing fashion is a much less important consideration in a class setting...
:dunno:
Atalanta
emergency solution. there ya go. it's not your first choice, but if you hafta, you hafta. i think it's fine to have some in the dance bag for unfamiliar floors, and you're right -- classes don't count. but i'm being admittedly snobby toward those who think peds = a-ok nightly dance wear.
fiftynites
Agreed. I carry around Peds for emergencies. I can wear them over sneakers, on sticky floors (yet some are even too sticky for Peds!), and try to bring at least one pair of chromed shoes and one pair of leather soled shoes for unfamiliar floors, or floors notorious for being sticky one week and slick the next. But, dear Amy, they do not have to look silly. I've even gotten compliments about how nice they looked! You gotta wear Peds with Class! Wear a bowtie with it!
I also agree about powder and dance wax, to some degree. There are some floors that are so bad that no matter what shoes you wear or even Peds, you'll go home with tired knees from all the sticking. Dawn Hampton brings cornmeal wherever she goes. I've even bottled the stuff and named it "Slippery Sh-t", with her approval. It sure has come in handy on rare ocassions, but we'd never put it over an entire floor, as it really is slippery as sh-t! It's only for your own shoes. I also got some "Dance Wax", which is also used for bowling alleys. Same thing. But only if all else fails!
Back to why I tried to revive this thread-BALBOA!!
With the NYC Balboa Weekend less than 2 months off, and many many more NY'ers dancing Bal, I wanted to discuss what's best for Balboa.
Slippery shoes. You want to be able to slide easily. Most people prefer leather bottoms. I love my Aris Allens. Some guys like loafers with leather bottoms. I've heard that lifts for women is best, as women are on their soles most of the time. If your shoes stick, you'll have more of a tendency to bounce and lose the all-important smoothness of the dance.
RubyMae
It's my default (and usually only) option. I dance so infrequently I don't want to invest in a pair of dance shoes (even 4.00 K-Mart sneakers that I chrome myself). I keep a pair of peds in my bag just in case I actually wind up dancing (which only happens maybe a total of 5 dances a year). I'm not particularly about the fashion statement I making.
saracynthia
There was a big discussion about this on Balboanation, and a lot of ladies love the tango shoes, as they have the heel, are made for dancing, and have hard leather soles.
http://www.taratangoshoes.com is very popular.
I have their 3" malenas in red and they are totally hot. I also have on order the black cuban heel Ellas. They give you lift, stability, and slide.
The thing is, most of these higher heels, you have to decide that you are going to dance balboa all night or it really changes the way you lindy (at least for me).
They also really change the way you dance balboa, giving you the "lean" as a follower that you normally are creating by being on the balls of your feet.
I would also mention that heel slides are much easier in cuban heels (1 1/2")than in 3" heels. :D
mary
Air
I actually have a sheet of hard leather (and chrome leather) I use to do my shoes. Costs 20- 30 and will give you enough for between 5-10 pairs of shoes depending on how large the bottoms are.
Now if I can only find shoes in my size....
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
oopsmybad
ok, but what kind of tools are you using to carve up hard leather? i watched my a cobbler do it and the process seemed to be awfully machine-intensive.
HepCat Jack
This is what I use for both Lindy & Bal:
Cotton Chinese shoes. You may have seen Bruce Lee wearing such shoes in his movies:
(Like the ones on this website)
http://www.karate-mart.com/ftw005.html
These are quite slick and slide very well. Since the cotton sole does wear out quickly, I puchase a "Pedag" insole (as in this website)
http://www.dbaeuroimport.com/Leather.htm
and I glue it underneath using Shoo Goo (leather side facing down). I also have insoles inside them to improve cushionning.
stavelym
Ouch...
Aww, hey now... don't confuse broke for cheap. Some of us are struggling just to get into venues, let alone pay for shoes. (Although this thread will help.) 30 may be a good investment, but you have to have some money to make an investment. Agreed, uneven floors are a very, very bad idea, but people resorting to shoe-substitutes aren't necessarily cheap and lazy.
-m(tg)
Air
Piece of plywood underneath. Good knife with a sharp blade:
And don't rush! I'll make a few groves and make the cuts deeper each time. If you have a dremel or router that would probably work as well.
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
Air
Just don't use powder or anything with a residue - so not fair to other dancers who have slicker shoes and it still will leave the floor unpredictable (and piss off the venue owners!!).
Personally I have nothing against Peds. If you can't find Peds in your size you can also buy pantyhose and cut the tops.
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
MCQ & CHRIS
Sorry, That I didn't answer sooner but I had to go to Duane Reade to check them out. Our big feet need "Foot Tubes by Kushy Feet". I feel silly writing these names.
fiftynites
Bumped - cause I was asked twice how to do it!
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