Ok, before I start my rant II want to clarify that I love Balboa and I have nothing against it. However, a trend that I have noticed lately is that as soon as a moderately fast song comes out everyone breaks into Balboa.
What happened to Fast Lindy? Charleston? Collegiate Shag? One of the reasons I loved uLHS so much this year is because everyone tried to push their limits with fast songs doing Charleston and Fast Lindy. I remember many people from Atlanta were complaining about how sore they were after ULHS becuase they are not used to Lindy that many fast songs (I am not saying they are not capable, we have a very talented scene in Atlanta).
The only place that I have seen Collegiate Shag done regularly in the social dance floor is in California. And many times I am afraid this is slowly become a lost dance form.
Granted I have only been dancing for 2 years now and I heard that a a few years ago Collegiate Shag was a big fad and everyone was doing it :dunno: So is Balboa just a fad for speed dancing and it eventually be substituted by other forms?
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Ok, seriously? First it's trendy to rip on people for not dancing at all to fast music. Is it now going to be trendy to rip on people for doing Balboa instead of fast lindy?
Many songs don't call for shag, and since a 6-count pattern feels weird over 8-count music, a lot of people don't prefer it. And maybe some of us just like squishing our chest up against someone else whenever possible. Lindy is just what we do between fast songs. Didja think of that? Huh? Huh?
Quoted from "Shanabanana" Ok, seriously? First it's trendy to rip on people for not dancing at all to fast music. Is it now going to be trendy to rip on people for doing Balboa instead of fast lindy?
Many songs don't call for shag, and since a 6-count pattern feels weird over 8-count music, a lot of people don't prefer it. And maybe some of us just like squishing our chest up against someone else whenever possible. Lindy is just what we do between fast songs. Didja think of that? Huh? Huh?
I am not ripping on anybody....If you don't dance fast music...that's your personal choice. What I was saying is that as soon as fast songs come I have seen an entire dance floor break into Balboa. I know that fast is very subjective but I mostly talking about tempos between 170-190 bpm, which, for me, is one of the times when I enjoy Lindy the most.
And I know there are songs that motivate you do dance one form or another (specially collegiate shag). What I am saying in regards to C.S. is that I am seeing it done less and less. Mostly because it requires much more physical endurance than Balboa or Lindy, but also because there are not that many people doing it anymore.
Quoted from "Nima" What happened to Fast Lindy? Charleston? Collegiate Shag?
I don't know what happened to them in your local scene, but I think it may be a mistake to credit Balboa with the change.
Well, although I have noticed it in Atlanta, it's not solely here where I have seen this trend. Once again, I don't have anything against Balboa, I love Bal. But we must admit that during the past 3 years its popularity has skyrocketed internationally (Even Herrang offers a Balboa track now!). Balboa is much more popular now that it ever was during the Swing Era (which is a great thing)...But at the same time I have noticed a trend and I was just wondering if other people felt the same way.
Quoted from "Nima" What happened to Fast Lindy? Charleston? Collegiate Shag?
I don't know what happened to them in your local scene, but I think it may be a mistake to credit Balboa with the change.
Well, although I have noticed it in Atlanta, it's not solely here where I have seen this trend. Once again, I don't have anything against Balboa, I love Bal. But we must admit that during the past 3 years its popularity has skyrocketed internationally (Even Herrang offers a Balboa track now!). Balboa is much more popular now that it ever was during the Swing Era (which is a great thing)...But at the same time I have noticed a trend and I was just wondering if other people felt the same way.
Nima
It's just the pendulum is swinging the other way. Folks are getting bored with just lindy and want to explore other things....
Quoted from "nurseboy" It's just the pendulum is swinging the other way. Folks are getting bored with just lindy and want to explore other things....
Well, that was my main question....It's Balboa a big craze at this moment that will eventually die down and be subsituted by something else (being Fast Lindy, 20's charleston, or whatever might come)? Or is Balboa a permanent solution that many people are finding to fast songs because, well, as pointed out earlier, although not easy, it does require less work?
Quoted from "Nima" Well, that was my main question....Or is Balboa a permanent solution that many people are finding to fast songs because, well, as pointed out earlier, although not easy, it does require less work?
(Damn are we that lazy???)
Nima
That may be part of it. Personally I believe the change in Lindy can be traced back to certain instructors a few years back who wanted to explore the dance in a different direction and their students jumped on it and extrapolated on it. Not saying it was all bad, but I think that's where the slow mindset came from. So a lot of folks never 'learned' to dance fast like a lot of the folks who were around before the change in stylistic tastes happened. To be fair, fast lindy, Charleston, etc is coming back as folks realize that those are a part of the dance too.
For me, Bal and shag are complimentary dances that have their own flavor. Some songs scream to me that they are a Bal or Shag song and not so much Lindy. But then again, I know how to dance lindy fast so I'm not limited to bal or shag if the RPM's kick up...
Quoted from "ye_dancer" Wait a second. You mean that dancers are doing something easy and unchallenging, instead of something that takes lots of work? THAT'S a surprise!
Ooohh... another person complaining the balboa is easy and unchallenging. Excuse me while I go get my popcorn...
i tend to agree with nima on this one. in new york, though, the tempos tend not to be as fast on average, so i don't think many people have the opportunity to build sufficient stamina or clean enough technique to be doing fast lindy for 3 minutes (not to mention the space issues here). so more often than not, they do bal.
what really disappoints me is when a song, say "jumping at the woodside", comes on and - for whatever reason - you can't do the flat-out-balls-to-the-wall fast lindy the song is practically screaming for.
Quoted from "oopsmybad" what really disappoints me is when a song, say "jumping at the woodside", comes on and - for whatever reason - you can't do the flat-out-balls-to-the-wall fast lindy the song is practically screaming for.
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are many songs that scream...BALBOA!!! RIGHT HERE!!!
But sometimes, when a song (such as jumping at the woodside) comes up and I see the majority of the dancers break into Bal it makes my Lindy Heart cry.
I am not ripping on anybody....If you don't dance fast music...that's your personal choice. What I was saying is that as soon as fast songs come I have seen an entire dance floor break into Balboa. I know that fast is very subjective but I mostly talking about tempos between 170-190 bpm, which, for me, is one of the times when I enjoy Lindy the most.
I wouldn't call lindyhop at 170-190 bpm "fast lindy". Besides, at those tempos Balboa is neither easier nor less work than lindy IMO. So it is really a matter of preference which one you choose to dance. Those who have been bitten by the bal bug will dance it to all tempos in fact, even though lindy is much easier at tempos lower than 150 bpm.
I love dancing fast lindy but I can count on one hand the leads in my scene that can lead it without causing great pain. Most haven't led Charlestons in years. Therefore, unless said leads are there and asking me to dance, I'd much rather Balboa.
That said, I adore Balboa and love the complexity of the dance, the thrill of zen following and being in closed position for long periods of time, so it's not like I think that I am doing Balboa as a consolation.
For me, fast lindy is not only physically challenging, but also risky depending on my partner. Too often I've been asked to dance to a fast song by an unknown lead, and I end up being thrown around and yanked in their attempt to keep up with the tempo. Too many seem to feel that larger patterns match the extra-energetic mood. So I've made it a habit to ask a lead I don't know if they Balboa when it's a super-fast song. If they don't, I ask them if I can wait until the next song instead.
Quoted from "lindyprof" I wouldn't call lindyhop at 170-190 bpm "fast lindy". Besides, at those tempos Balboa is neither easier nor less work than lindy IMO. So it is really a matter of preference which one you choose to dance. Those who have been bitten by the bal bug will dance it to all tempos in fact, even though lindy is much easier at tempos lower than 150 bpm.
You are very right, 170-190 it's more of a medium tempo (a little on the slow side) for me. That's why I said...."subjective". I personally prefer songs in the 210-260 bpm.
Once again, I want to clarify that this thread is not about bahing Balboa. Balboa is definitely not an easy dance. And is also a very fun dance. The main point is that when faster songs come up I have seen the following trend:
Me: Want to dance?
Follow: I don't know it seems kinda fast
Me: Well, it's good to push your limits
Follow: I don't know if I can dance that fast, want to Bal?
Me: sigh Ok
I am not expecting everyone to get out there and Lindy 300 bpm. However, what I am noticing is that more and more people are relying in the comfort of Balboa for faster songs. They dont try to push LIndy Hop outside their comfort zone. But then, this would be a rant for a different thread...
Nima - Balboa is not a recent "trend" ... at the All Balboa Weekend in Cleveland the aging "Old Guard" started doing Balboa in the 20's and 30's. They thought the dance would die with them (I asked) and are very grateful to the younger dancers that have taken enough of an interest in it to attend weekend workshop in Cleveland and Balboa Island each year to learn the dance/culture and pass it on. For more information, go to www.balboanation.com.
As to Balboa being an "easy copout" to challenging dances ... get a clue. Crappy Balboa is easy, Balboa done right is just as difficult as Lindy/Charleston. Take some workshops from experts and then judge.
As to the paucity of people doing fast Lindy ... this is a frustration for me too. When a really neat fast song comes on it frustrates me to ask one of my favorite partners to dance and be told "are you crazy? this is too fast to dance lindy to". A fallback position to this is to say, "Well, how about trying this with Balboa?" because it is a bit less physical effort to dance at least the basic Balboa step to fast music. My frustration here is that me at age 57 proposes a fast lindy dance to a 25 year old who believes the physical challenge is beyond her. My confession is that after a few fast dances that I do get from partners who know how, my energy may flag a little and Balboa is a good way to stay out there on the dance floor for fast music.
Perhaps more fast Lindy workshops is the best approach. Lindy started out as a dance to fast music (if you don't believe this, watch Hellzapoppin' again). At the same time, Balboa is a legitimate dance for both fast and moderate and even slow tempo swing music. And the two can be mixed together (Bal-Swing - originally just called "swing", the first dance to bear that name).
Let 100 flowers bloom!
The main thing is not to wimp out on dancing to fast music. We can argue if everyone is dancing to fast music the right way when people stop leaving the dance floor when the tempo goes over 180.
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
I don't think they are doing ENOUGH Balboa in NY! The only people I see out doing social bal are either beginners, still struggling to do basic bal at what is slow for balboa(very happy to dance with them if only they'd ask - I don't know who knows bal and who doesn't) and the opposite extreme. I prefer Balboa to fast lindy because I'm injury prone and I know I'm more likely to be injured, regardless of the cause, doing fast lindy than doing Bal. I also think Bal is TOTALLY cool. Well executed Bal-Swing feels amazing. It creates a dynamic sensation that I don't get with Lindy.
Quoted from "Racetrack" Nima - Balboa is not a recent "trend" ... at the All Balboa Weekend in Cleveland the aging "Old Guard" started doing Balboa in the 20's and 30's. They thought the dance would die with them (I asked) and are very grateful to the younger dancers that have taken enough of an interest in it to attend weekend workshop in Cleveland and Balboa Island each year to learn the dance/culture and pass it on. For more information, go to www.balboanation.com..
I know that Balboa is not a recent dance. But in the past few years it has re-emerged like the Phoenix and we can say that Balboa is right now at its most popular stage amongst dancers....ever.
Quoted from "Racetrack" As to Balboa being an "easy copout" to challenging dances ... get a clue. Crappy Balboa is easy, Balboa done right is just as difficult as Lindy/Charleston. Take some workshops from experts and then judge..
I have NEVER said that Balboa is easy. I have taken lots of workshops in Bal..Sylvia Sikes, Nick & Denise, Marty & Val, Marty & Jen, etc, etc, etc...I am not unfamiliar with the dance. I love the dance.
Quoted from "Racetrack" As to the paucity of people doing fast Lindy ... this is a frustration for me too. When a really neat fast song comes on it frustrates me to ask one of my favorite partners to dance and be told "are you crazy? this is too fast to dance lindy to". A fallback position to this is to say, "Well, how about trying this with Balboa?" because it is a bit less physical effort to dance at least the basic Balboa step to fast music. My frustration here is that me at age 57 proposes a fast lindy dance to a 25 year old who believes the physical challenge is beyond her. My confession is that after a few fast dances that I do get from partners who know how, my energy may flag a little and Balboa is a good way to stay out there on the dance floor for fast music..
dude, give it time. most people can't immediately make the jump to trying to dance lindy hop at tempos uncomfortable for them. partner dancing at all is freakish and unnatural in this day and age, much less doing it fast and expertly.
balboa is a nice way to accomodate the ears and feet to the music and tempo before the body dives in too.
collegiate shag is nonexistent because, well, it's a dumb-ass dance. oh sure people can make it look great, and i'm sure it can be subtle and awesome, but why bother?
Nima - I realize it was not you who called Balboa a copout dance to fast music. I was responding to several posts at once and perhaps did not make that clear.
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
Quoted from "julius" dude, give it time. most people can't immediately make the jump to trying to dance lindy hop at tempos uncomfortable for them. partner dancing at all is freakish and unnatural in this day and age, much less doing it fast and expertly.
Well my rant does not originate from beginners attempting Bal. As pointed out earlier, if someone doesn't know how to dance Fast lindy properly it can lead to...hmmmm...un-healthy results. I am mostly frustrated with advanced dancers who fall back onto Bal when fast songs come along. For cying outloud...all I ask for is a for a swingout now and then!!
Quoted from "julius" collegiate shag is nonexistent because, well, it's a dumb-ass dance. oh sure people can make it look great, and i'm sure it can be subtle and awesome, but why bother?
Because it's a fun dance...? I actually prefer it over Bal...
Denver has BADASS fast lindy. Dan & Tiff. John & Heather. Laura, Ryan.... omg. Okay, end obligatory scene plug... y'all already know we have everything you could ever dream of :wink:
I have seen way too much awesome bal to say it is easier (other than in the most strictly physical/cardiovascular sense) or less challenging. However, I do think that when you are new to bal and new to fast lindy, bal is going to be easier to dance at high tempos. You can bal with poor technique and it can work alright, allowing you to practice it more often socially and become more comfortable with the dance. Fast lindy with poor technique is just going to suck, wear you out in a few swingouts, and as some have pointed out it's an easy way to hurt your follow if you are leading too rough. It comes down to the basic - the balboa basic is more straightforward than the lindy basic imo, and at the high tempos it doesn't punish you for poor technique to the same extent. Fast lindy is the hardest thing I've learned in a long time, and I'm still not too good at it.
Also I hear what oopsmybad and Nima are saying about dancing the "wrong dance" to certain songs. I don't think that's specifically related to balboa though... rather, just poor (or not caring about) musicality. There's some basic levels of this, I'll crappily summarize:
1) The beat - dancing at the same tempo as the song and being on the 1. Concentrating too hard on this level is prolly why you'll see dancing that really does not fit the song.
2) Breaks - probably the first thing you learn.
3) Instrumentation and solos - changing which player(s) you're primarily dancing to. Making your moves and footwork match variations in the music.
4) Phrasing - varying your energy and style to changes in the feel of the music. Relevent here, some songs might call for lindy, then some bal, then back to liindy, as the musicians change what they are doing.
5) Overall synthesis - putting all that together, and still looking for what the song is saying to you on a higher level. This may be both the hardest and the most necessarily intuitive one... and therefore the level that is the most missed, particularly when people are learning one of the previous levels, trying to practice it, and therefore forcing things too much.
Real instructors can probably explain that a lot better... eh, well I tried. Anyway, not only are those usually the order people learn things in, but imo that is also ordered by difficulty to teach someone else. Yeah, you can teach someone to count to 8. You can teach them to do this stop, stomp, or pose on an obvious break. But finding the feel of the music? You've gotta either have that, or listen to the music a lot until you get good at it. And for the majority of people who don't just naturally have that in their dancing, learning a new dance probably means starting back at level 1.
As long as up tempo swing music is playing, I'm happy. No matter what dance the majority of the people are doing, its fun to see people having a good time dancing to the music that I like.
When it comes to collegiate shag, i have to agree with julius that part of the reason it isnt as popular is because it does have a somewhat dorky feel to it. That said, i have seen a few couples who make it look really good, one couple being Minn and Corrina. Also, I think collegiate shag is really more suited for medium up tempo songs, not the blazing fast tunes that people might lindy hop or balboa or swing to.
I guess across the world, I have seen a raised interest in Balboa/Swing. I for one think this is an incredibley great thing. My reasons are as follows:
1) Its a great social dance
2) Perhaps if more people are dancing balboa/swing, there could be a slight shift in the style of music that gets DJed at dances, making me a much happier lindy hopper
3) Provides an outlet for those who are bored/frustrated with lindy hop or just want to take a break, but they can dance to the same music.
4) Learning how to move your body to the same kind of music is great for your lindy hop (ie learning how to tap, or charleston etc)
5) Balboa/swing has a totally different lead/follow technique than lindy hop, you learn how to lead in different ways.
6) I havent seen any really incredible lindy hoppers ditch lindy hop for balboa/swing altogether.
I think balboa/swing is great. I look at it as the oppisite spectrum blues dance. There are very few if any people who only blues dance, same with balboa/swing, most people already have some experience in lindy hop. Both tend to hold their partners extremely close. Both work with a lot of similar connection ideas. The only difference in the tempo range and style of music thats being danced to. It was funny, in Herrang this year, they had a balboa night in the bar on the same night that was blues night in the main dance room, both were incredibly packed so that people were shoulder to shoulder. The amazing thing is, that if you went up to the main room or if you were in the bar, it looked as if people were doing the exact same thing, the only difference that really stood out was the music.
I think its great for lindy hoppers to have some kind of outlet at the faster tempos because they already have the great outlet of blues dancing at the slower ones.
I just want to reiterate point 2 one more time, if it means that people are playing more of the music I prefer at dances, than I am all for it. The best music nights I have heard recently have all been "Balboa Nights". God damn if it wasnt great music to swing out to.
Quoted from "falty411" I just want to reiterate point 2 one more time, if it means that people are playing more of the music I prefer at dances, than I am all for it. The best music nights I have heard recently have all been "Balboa Nights". God damn if it wasnt great music to swing out to.
The best bands I've heard live have been the " Jazz Boilermakers" at All-Bal weekend last year in Cleveland and the "Wolverines" at ULHS.
I am not ripping on anybody....If you don't dance fast music...that's your personal choice. What I was saying is that as soon as fast songs come I have seen an entire dance floor break into Balboa. I know that fast is very subjective but I mostly talking about tempos between 170-190 bpm, which, for me, is one of the times when I enjoy Lindy the most.
Ok, so you're not really talking about fast lindy but mid tempo. I think some people practice their balboa at that tempo because it is a fun tempo to play balboa. I think it'd depend on the song whether you'd play your lindy or your balboa. To some songs, you just have to swing out. you don't have a choice.
Bal killed the Fast Lindy Star?
Nima
Ok, before I start my rant II want to clarify that I love Balboa and I have nothing against it. However, a trend that I have noticed lately is that as soon as a moderately fast song comes out everyone breaks into Balboa.
What happened to Fast Lindy? Charleston? Collegiate Shag? One of the reasons I loved uLHS so much this year is because everyone tried to push their limits with fast songs doing Charleston and Fast Lindy. I remember many people from Atlanta were complaining about how sore they were after ULHS becuase they are not used to Lindy that many fast songs (I am not saying they are not capable, we have a very talented scene in Atlanta).
The only place that I have seen Collegiate Shag done regularly in the social dance floor is in California. And many times I am afraid this is slowly become a lost dance form.
Granted I have only been dancing for 2 years now and I heard that a a few years ago Collegiate Shag was a big fad and everyone was doing it :dunno: So is Balboa just a fad for speed dancing and it eventually be substituted by other forms?
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Shanabanana
Ok, seriously? First it's trendy to rip on people for not dancing at all to fast music. Is it now going to be trendy to rip on people for doing Balboa instead of fast lindy?
Many songs don't call for shag, and since a 6-count pattern feels weird over 8-count music, a lot of people don't prefer it. And maybe some of us just like squishing our chest up against someone else whenever possible. Lindy is just what we do between fast songs. Didja think of that? Huh? Huh?
Nima
I am not ripping on anybody....If you don't dance fast music...that's your personal choice. What I was saying is that as soon as fast songs come I have seen an entire dance floor break into Balboa. I know that fast is very subjective but I mostly talking about tempos between 170-190 bpm, which, for me, is one of the times when I enjoy Lindy the most.
And I know there are songs that motivate you do dance one form or another (specially collegiate shag). What I am saying in regards to C.S. is that I am seeing it done less and less. Mostly because it requires much more physical endurance than Balboa or Lindy, but also because there are not that many people doing it anymore.
nurseboy
I'm too old, broken, out of shape and living in a low oxygen environment to be dancing lindy to fast music....... :wink: :P
ye_dancer
Wait a second. You mean that dancers are doing something easy and unchallenging, instead of something that takes lots of work? THAT'S a surprise!
whipitgood
I don't know what happened to them in your local scene, but I think it may be a mistake to credit Balboa with the change.
Nima
Well, although I have noticed it in Atlanta, it's not solely here where I have seen this trend. Once again, I don't have anything against Balboa, I love Bal. But we must admit that during the past 3 years its popularity has skyrocketed internationally (Even Herrang offers a Balboa track now!). Balboa is much more popular now that it ever was during the Swing Era (which is a great thing)...But at the same time I have noticed a trend and I was just wondering if other people felt the same way.
Nima
nurseboy
It's just the pendulum is swinging the other way. Folks are getting bored with just lindy and want to explore other things....
Nima
Well, that was my main question....It's Balboa a big craze at this moment that will eventually die down and be subsituted by something else (being Fast Lindy, 20's charleston, or whatever might come)? Or is Balboa a permanent solution that many people are finding to fast songs because, well, as pointed out earlier, although not easy, it does require less work?
(Damn are we that lazy???)
Nima
nurseboy
That may be part of it. Personally I believe the change in Lindy can be traced back to certain instructors a few years back who wanted to explore the dance in a different direction and their students jumped on it and extrapolated on it. Not saying it was all bad, but I think that's where the slow mindset came from. So a lot of folks never 'learned' to dance fast like a lot of the folks who were around before the change in stylistic tastes happened. To be fair, fast lindy, Charleston, etc is coming back as folks realize that those are a part of the dance too.
For me, Bal and shag are complimentary dances that have their own flavor. Some songs scream to me that they are a Bal or Shag song and not so much Lindy. But then again, I know how to dance lindy fast so I'm not limited to bal or shag if the RPM's kick up...
thenewgroovinsax
Ooohh... another person complaining the balboa is easy and unchallenging. Excuse me while I go get my popcorn...
Phlurg
Lindy? WTF? I thought this was a West Coast Swing forum.
oopsmybad
i tend to agree with nima on this one. in new york, though, the tempos tend not to be as fast on average, so i don't think many people have the opportunity to build sufficient stamina or clean enough technique to be doing fast lindy for 3 minutes (not to mention the space issues here). so more often than not, they do bal.
what really disappoints me is when a song, say "jumping at the woodside", comes on and - for whatever reason - you can't do the flat-out-balls-to-the-wall fast lindy the song is practically screaming for.
Shanabanana
Style Wars 15: Attack of the Clones.
Nima
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are many songs that scream...BALBOA!!! RIGHT HERE!!!
But sometimes, when a song (such as jumping at the woodside) comes up and I see the majority of the dancers break into Bal it makes my Lindy Heart cry.
lindyprof
I wouldn't call lindyhop at 170-190 bpm "fast lindy". Besides, at those tempos Balboa is neither easier nor less work than lindy IMO. So it is really a matter of preference which one you choose to dance. Those who have been bitten by the bal bug will dance it to all tempos in fact, even though lindy is much easier at tempos lower than 150 bpm.
lilieblue
I love dancing fast lindy but I can count on one hand the leads in my scene that can lead it without causing great pain. Most haven't led Charlestons in years. Therefore, unless said leads are there and asking me to dance, I'd much rather Balboa.
That said, I adore Balboa and love the complexity of the dance, the thrill of zen following and being in closed position for long periods of time, so it's not like I think that I am doing Balboa as a consolation.
CinnamonGirl
For me, fast lindy is not only physically challenging, but also risky depending on my partner. Too often I've been asked to dance to a fast song by an unknown lead, and I end up being thrown around and yanked in their attempt to keep up with the tempo. Too many seem to feel that larger patterns match the extra-energetic mood. So I've made it a habit to ask a lead I don't know if they Balboa when it's a super-fast song. If they don't, I ask them if I can wait until the next song instead.
Just my preference, that's all.
Nima
You are very right, 170-190 it's more of a medium tempo (a little on the slow side) for me. That's why I said...."subjective". I personally prefer songs in the 210-260 bpm.
Once again, I want to clarify that this thread is not about bahing Balboa. Balboa is definitely not an easy dance. And is also a very fun dance. The main point is that when faster songs come up I have seen the following trend:
Me: Want to dance?
Follow: I don't know it seems kinda fast
Me: Well, it's good to push your limits
Follow: I don't know if I can dance that fast, want to Bal?
Me: sigh Ok
I am not expecting everyone to get out there and Lindy 300 bpm. However, what I am noticing is that more and more people are relying in the comfort of Balboa for faster songs. They dont try to push LIndy Hop outside their comfort zone. But then, this would be a rant for a different thread...
Racetrack
Nima - Balboa is not a recent "trend" ... at the All Balboa Weekend in Cleveland the aging "Old Guard" started doing Balboa in the 20's and 30's. They thought the dance would die with them (I asked) and are very grateful to the younger dancers that have taken enough of an interest in it to attend weekend workshop in Cleveland and Balboa Island each year to learn the dance/culture and pass it on. For more information, go to www.balboanation.com.
As to Balboa being an "easy copout" to challenging dances ... get a clue. Crappy Balboa is easy, Balboa done right is just as difficult as Lindy/Charleston. Take some workshops from experts and then judge.
As to the paucity of people doing fast Lindy ... this is a frustration for me too. When a really neat fast song comes on it frustrates me to ask one of my favorite partners to dance and be told "are you crazy? this is too fast to dance lindy to". A fallback position to this is to say, "Well, how about trying this with Balboa?" because it is a bit less physical effort to dance at least the basic Balboa step to fast music. My frustration here is that me at age 57 proposes a fast lindy dance to a 25 year old who believes the physical challenge is beyond her. My confession is that after a few fast dances that I do get from partners who know how, my energy may flag a little and Balboa is a good way to stay out there on the dance floor for fast music.
Perhaps more fast Lindy workshops is the best approach. Lindy started out as a dance to fast music (if you don't believe this, watch Hellzapoppin' again). At the same time, Balboa is a legitimate dance for both fast and moderate and even slow tempo swing music. And the two can be mixed together (Bal-Swing - originally just called "swing", the first dance to bear that name).
Let 100 flowers bloom!
The main thing is not to wimp out on dancing to fast music. We can argue if everyone is dancing to fast music the right way when people stop leaving the dance floor when the tempo goes over 180.
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
Wockin Wobin
I don't think they are doing ENOUGH Balboa in NY! The only people I see out doing social bal are either beginners, still struggling to do basic bal at what is slow for balboa(very happy to dance with them if only they'd ask - I don't know who knows bal and who doesn't) and the opposite extreme. I prefer Balboa to fast lindy because I'm injury prone and I know I'm more likely to be injured, regardless of the cause, doing fast lindy than doing Bal. I also think Bal is TOTALLY cool. Well executed Bal-Swing feels amazing. It creates a dynamic sensation that I don't get with Lindy.
Nima
I know that Balboa is not a recent dance. But in the past few years it has re-emerged like the Phoenix and we can say that Balboa is right now at its most popular stage amongst dancers....ever.
I have NEVER said that Balboa is easy. I have taken lots of workshops in Bal..Sylvia Sikes, Nick & Denise, Marty & Val, Marty & Jen, etc, etc, etc...I am not unfamiliar with the dance. I love the dance.
Ok, so now you get my point...
julius
dude, give it time. most people can't immediately make the jump to trying to dance lindy hop at tempos uncomfortable for them. partner dancing at all is freakish and unnatural in this day and age, much less doing it fast and expertly.
balboa is a nice way to accomodate the ears and feet to the music and tempo before the body dives in too.
collegiate shag is nonexistent because, well, it's a dumb-ass dance. oh sure people can make it look great, and i'm sure it can be subtle and awesome, but why bother?
Racetrack
Nima - I realize it was not you who called Balboa a copout dance to fast music. I was responding to several posts at once and perhaps did not make that clear.
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
Nima
Well my rant does not originate from beginners attempting Bal. As pointed out earlier, if someone doesn't know how to dance Fast lindy properly it can lead to...hmmmm...un-healthy results. I am mostly frustrated with advanced dancers who fall back onto Bal when fast songs come along. For cying outloud...all I ask for is a for a swingout now and then!!
nurseboy
Because it's a fun dance...? I actually prefer it over Bal...
Signet
Denver has BADASS fast lindy. Dan & Tiff. John & Heather. Laura, Ryan.... omg. Okay, end obligatory scene plug... y'all already know we have everything you could ever dream of :wink:
I have seen way too much awesome bal to say it is easier (other than in the most strictly physical/cardiovascular sense) or less challenging. However, I do think that when you are new to bal and new to fast lindy, bal is going to be easier to dance at high tempos. You can bal with poor technique and it can work alright, allowing you to practice it more often socially and become more comfortable with the dance. Fast lindy with poor technique is just going to suck, wear you out in a few swingouts, and as some have pointed out it's an easy way to hurt your follow if you are leading too rough. It comes down to the basic - the balboa basic is more straightforward than the lindy basic imo, and at the high tempos it doesn't punish you for poor technique to the same extent. Fast lindy is the hardest thing I've learned in a long time, and I'm still not too good at it.
Also I hear what oopsmybad and Nima are saying about dancing the "wrong dance" to certain songs. I don't think that's specifically related to balboa though... rather, just poor (or not caring about) musicality. There's some basic levels of this, I'll crappily summarize:
1) The beat - dancing at the same tempo as the song and being on the 1. Concentrating too hard on this level is prolly why you'll see dancing that really does not fit the song.
2) Breaks - probably the first thing you learn.
3) Instrumentation and solos - changing which player(s) you're primarily dancing to. Making your moves and footwork match variations in the music.
4) Phrasing - varying your energy and style to changes in the feel of the music. Relevent here, some songs might call for lindy, then some bal, then back to liindy, as the musicians change what they are doing.
5) Overall synthesis - putting all that together, and still looking for what the song is saying to you on a higher level. This may be both the hardest and the most necessarily intuitive one... and therefore the level that is the most missed, particularly when people are learning one of the previous levels, trying to practice it, and therefore forcing things too much.
Real instructors can probably explain that a lot better... eh, well I tried. Anyway, not only are those usually the order people learn things in, but imo that is also ordered by difficulty to teach someone else. Yeah, you can teach someone to count to 8. You can teach them to do this stop, stomp, or pose on an obvious break. But finding the feel of the music? You've gotta either have that, or listen to the music a lot until you get good at it. And for the majority of people who don't just naturally have that in their dancing, learning a new dance probably means starting back at level 1.
- James
MEEPEE
As long as up tempo swing music is playing, I'm happy. No matter what dance the majority of the people are doing, its fun to see people having a good time dancing to the music that I like.
falty411
When it comes to collegiate shag, i have to agree with julius that part of the reason it isnt as popular is because it does have a somewhat dorky feel to it. That said, i have seen a few couples who make it look really good, one couple being Minn and Corrina. Also, I think collegiate shag is really more suited for medium up tempo songs, not the blazing fast tunes that people might lindy hop or balboa or swing to.
I guess across the world, I have seen a raised interest in Balboa/Swing. I for one think this is an incredibley great thing. My reasons are as follows:
1) Its a great social dance
2) Perhaps if more people are dancing balboa/swing, there could be a slight shift in the style of music that gets DJed at dances, making me a much happier lindy hopper
3) Provides an outlet for those who are bored/frustrated with lindy hop or just want to take a break, but they can dance to the same music.
4) Learning how to move your body to the same kind of music is great for your lindy hop (ie learning how to tap, or charleston etc)
5) Balboa/swing has a totally different lead/follow technique than lindy hop, you learn how to lead in different ways.
6) I havent seen any really incredible lindy hoppers ditch lindy hop for balboa/swing altogether.
I think balboa/swing is great. I look at it as the oppisite spectrum blues dance. There are very few if any people who only blues dance, same with balboa/swing, most people already have some experience in lindy hop. Both tend to hold their partners extremely close. Both work with a lot of similar connection ideas. The only difference in the tempo range and style of music thats being danced to. It was funny, in Herrang this year, they had a balboa night in the bar on the same night that was blues night in the main dance room, both were incredibly packed so that people were shoulder to shoulder. The amazing thing is, that if you went up to the main room or if you were in the bar, it looked as if people were doing the exact same thing, the only difference that really stood out was the music.
I think its great for lindy hoppers to have some kind of outlet at the faster tempos because they already have the great outlet of blues dancing at the slower ones.
I just want to reiterate point 2 one more time, if it means that people are playing more of the music I prefer at dances, than I am all for it. The best music nights I have heard recently have all been "Balboa Nights". God damn if it wasnt great music to swing out to.
Nima
The best bands I've heard live have been the " Jazz Boilermakers" at All-Bal weekend last year in Cleveland and the "Wolverines" at ULHS.
CafeSavoy
Ok, so you're not really talking about fast lindy but mid tempo. I think some people practice their balboa at that tempo because it is a fun tempo to play balboa. I think it'd depend on the song whether you'd play your lindy or your balboa. To some songs, you just have to swing out. you don't have a choice.
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