Quoted from "Keither"

Quoted from "Alligator"
I don't know you that well or your dancing... but putting yourself in the same category as Ogden? You sure you don't have your own motivations on this thread?

I certainly wouldn't put my dancing at the level of Ogden's. But I think I can claim that my interest in blues dance as a legitimate interpretive partner dance and not a grindfest is a trait that Ogden and I share. That was all that I was implying there.

I find it odd that out of a list of people of people who can "claim blues dance as a legitimate interpretive partner dance and not a grindfest" that you can only come up with Odgen.... and yourself.

Quote
As for my motivations - I'll state that flat out. I want there to be more blues dancers in this world. And I want there to be more GOOD blues dancers.

I get very weary when I read stuff like yours from people who just spring up and consider themselves teachers or experts after a short time. Maybe it's because in the past some of those people DID have a creepy agenda, or a very public rep, maybe it's because some of those people STILL taught grinding even though they claimed they never did, maybe it's becuase some of those people get all serious in a blues discussion thread, but then get nasty in blues exchange threads as if no one will associate the two.

What you've been saying seems a bit self-serving, self-promotional and maybe even defensive at times. Not that I've ever paid attention to your dancing, but an observation based on posts.

Personally, as much as I enjoy blues dancing, I don't think I'd want to mass produce more of them - at least not till we get the ones already dancing to actually BE good.

an im tangent:

julius: hahah i'm the top of page 3 on the blues thread

holly: i agree and disagree with you

julius: how so

holly: all true statements- but the "need" people feel to "justify" comes from wanting it to be not sex standing up.... the skeeziness that is in every room, still, somewhere. until it's not seen, it'll still be debated.

julius: well, that will happen when people stop humping each other on the dance floor, but then it wouldn't be blues dancing

holly: smacks you

julius: people need to accept and ADMIT that blues dancing is essentially sexual in nature, and always has been, and historically was danced that way

holly: some.

julius: just say up front 'i'm teaching you a dance that was about sex back in the day'

julius: 'so you will probably have to be sexy. suck it up.'

holly: not all.

julius: oh?

holly: if one takes the body as another instrument in the song, and utilizes that instrument to express said song, yeah. not always. some joy, some anguish, pain, anger. visceral, yes. sexy? not always.

holly: however

julius: yeah, the way people do it TODAY

julius: but that's because they're attempting to deny the basic nature of the dance

holly: i will deliberately ignore that i know what you're trying to say and play devil's advocate here: you're saying that using your body as an expression of what a blues song tells you for whatever emotion that may be, and not necessarily sexual, is denying the basic nature of the dance? to me that's saying that all blues music is about sex, since only dancing derived from sexuality would be a "proper" expression of the blues.

julius: well, i look at it from another viewpoint. people went "blues dancing" in order to mack on chicks. so why would they want to dance in a way that expresses something other than sexuality? they chose to dance to music that was sexual, did a dance that was sexual, and when something nonsexual was played, i'm guessing they didn't hammer a dance to fit the music, they just did another dance until they could keep macking

julius: the modern viewpoint is that the music comes first, and since there's all sorts of blues, the dance should express all those viewpoints

julius: but the aim of the dance is completely different -- it's to dance, not necessarily to mack on people (or so its proponents claim)

holly: hm.

sigh Let me name some other names -

Charlie Fuller, Heidi Fite, Solomon Douglas, Noni Clarke, Damon Stone, Ria Debasie, Jerry and Kathy Warwick. Mihai. Joshua. Kelly Porter. Tina Davis. Devona. Holly. Dr. Feelgood. Mike Marcotte Donna. Jeff and Kristen from Waterloo.

These are people who are actively working to teach the dance or change the music played at blues events. I mentioned Ogden only since he was participating on this thread.

You may be weary of reading my posts (which you're welcome to ignore), but I never claimed to be an expert nor a great instructor. Regardless, I want there to be blues dance where I live. We have no budget, but myself and some other blues dancers (of which I'm the newest) are interested in creating it. We're starting something.

Is it self-serving? Sure. Is it self-promotional? Sure. Tell me where that's against the rules.

Quoted from "savowood"
I think a lot of these folks don't know who you are. I remember you from about 5-6 years ago back when I first got started (assuming you're the same Frank I knew from DC), [embarrassingly flattering stuff edited out] you're kind of unknown on this forum, as am I. If you want some good instruction and a few ideas on what is and what isn't blues (dance wise), ask Mike. He was teaching a full series with Donna for a long time. I don't know if there are politics I'm not aware of from the scene or the dance team, but he seems to be the local guru for the blues lovers. I don't have any of his (or Donna's) contact information, but you should be able to PM him (or her) on SODC.

Nope...no politics at all. I think Mike is a great dancer and an even better guy. I'd be happy to look in on his and Donna's classes or the Sunday dances at Glen Echo, but I live in Florida now, so that's right out.

I've got access to some great folks down here in SoFLA as well, just thought I'd get some opinions and feedback from the Yehoodiites.

Thanks for the kind words btw. I am embarrassed to say that I can't remember the name that goes with your YehoodiID. Give me a reminder please.....

As an aside, I learned to lindy from Donna way back when. Took 8 weeks of 6-count stuff from her then another couple of months of lindy at Glen Echo.

Quoted from "julius"
There's no need to legitimize or justify it.

Julius is the man.

Quoted from "yes."
holly: if one takes the body as another instrument in the song, and utilizes that instrument to express said song, yeah. not always. some joy, some anguish, pain, anger. visceral, yes. sexy? not always.

sex doesn't have to be synonymous with sexy.

Sex can have joy, some anguish, pain, anger, and be visercal. You can have sex and have any one of these emotions while having it. So in a blues dance you have your clothes on and are listening to the music. It's just musicality within the actual dance. But it's still about the sex.

People get all worked up about not using the "sex" word in dancing, instead wrapping it in some artistic bow. But since when does an art form like dance separate itself completely from any form of sexuality.

What the dance is an embrace done to music. Isn't that an extension of sexuality in itself?

And yes, Julius has a valid point when it comes to "mackin on chicks." It's so funny when people just completely ignore that aspect by getting all soft and acting like they're artistic eunuchs. Get a pair.

And someone make out with me already! :-)

Quoted from "Keither"
Is it self-serving? Sure. Is it self-promotional? Sure. Tell me where that's against the rules.

Hey, I'm just looking for some honesty. Glad to see some.

BTW - wow, surprised at a couple of those names. We're all entitled to our opinions though.

And Odgen, I'm not denying what you've said about teaching and ability in connection with Lindy Hop. I can understand the need for some small scenes to try and grow. But I think there's been a difference between the way Lindy Hop has grown and how Blues had initially evolved.

I also know remember back in the day certain National instructors who were willing to teach "teachers." They would give workshops on teaching and educating their students. There was a desire there for people to take those classes. I haven't seen as much of that in the blues community.

Quote
julius: well, i look at it from another viewpoint. people went "blues dancing" in order to mack on chicks. so why would they want to dance in a way that expresses something other than sexuality? they chose to dance to music that was sexual, did a dance that was sexual, and when something nonsexual was played, i'm guessing they didn't hammer a dance to fit the music, they just did another dance until they could keep macking

See, I think people just went dancing to whatever was playing that night at the bar, club, juke joint, or what have you that they ended up at that evening. When the music got bawdy, so did they. They did whatever worked with the music, I've seen clips of Blues performances in the Delta where people were doing swing-outs, triple-steps, and movement that looks like what people are doing to Blues today. Though I can't say Ive ever seen a body-roll in a dance clip. That, I believe, is an unfortunate modern development.

It's hard for me to believe that someone going dancing in the Delta in 1939 and someone going dancing in New York City in 1939 were doing it for tremendously different reasons.

Quoted from "Alligator"
I also know remember back in the day certain National instructors who were willing to teach "teachers." They would give workshops on teaching and educating their students. There was a desire there for people to take those classes. I haven't seen as much of that in the blues community.

You mean like this?

Quoted from "Keither"

Quoted from "Alligator"
I also know remember back in the day certain National instructors who were willing to teach "teachers." They would give workshops on teaching and educating their students. There was a desire there for people to take those classes. I haven't seen as much of that in the blues community.

You mean like this?

It's a start. But a forum board discussion is a lot more different than the teaching workshops I remember seeing and hearing about.

Quoted from "julius"
essentially I'm convinced (because I'm THE MAN according to a reputable source) that people went out to the bar, club, and juke joint in order to mack on people, not dance for the sake of dancing, completely unlike today's blues dancing/lindy hop scene.

And completely LIKE normal people today going out to the bar or club in order to mack on people. Who are also not claiming it's all about the dance or saying what they're doing has some redeeming artistic value outside of getting some play.

Nando: thanks for the artistic eunuch compliment Nando:I just want you to know... that you are my muse Mugsy: I inspire you to make comments about eunuchs? Mugsy:I'm not so sure I like that Nando:I'd so RW that if I could cut and paste off of this Web client

I can only say that some people on the list were placed for their development of the music placed in the scene and not their dancing per se. Some were placed for their promotion of blues dance. Otherwise, I can't speak to what I haven't seen, and none of the people I've listed who I consider instructors are teaching or encouraging bodyrolls and grinding.

Quoted from "Swifty"

Quoted from "julius"
essentially I'm convinced (because I'm THE MAN according to a reputable source) that people went out to the bar, club, and juke joint in order to mack on people, not dance for the sake of dancing, completely unlike today's blues dancing/lindy hop scene.

And completely LIKE normal people today going out to the bar or club in order to mack on people. Who are also not claiming it's all about the dance or saying what they're doing has some redeeming artistic value outside of getting some play.

And LIKE people went to the Savoy Ballroom in 19XX....because no one went there to meet women, ever, it was only for the purposes of dancing, always. C'mon, don't be silly. Frankie and Norma and all are great dancers, but they are the smallest sample of dancers from the top of the Savoy dancer heap, who did go out for the dancing. But what about the other thousand or so people that were there on an average night? I'm sure that not one of them ever went there to meet girls/boys.

Dancing is dancing, take Lindy off the pedestal. People dance to have a good time. We treat Lindy like it's folk art and seem to think that it always was, but at one time, it was just a dance. It may have even been a lot more fun when it was just dancing and not "Lindy Hop".

It's nice to step out on the floor and dance without having to worry about preserving that leagacy.

oh for the love of ....

this thread has turned into a rant war, nothing else. Its become an invitation to any would-be snob who wants to trash on something they look down on.

Blues is not all slow, in fact my favorite is blues dancing to faster tempo blues

Blues is not all closed position and even when it is danced in closed position you shouldn't be bumping uglies. In fact if any follow rubs there thing on me I am going to let go and drop them, seriously.

Of course there are people who do bump and grind and call it "blues". Want to see that? Just go to some "blues parties" either here in NY or the Northwest.

Quoted from "krarf"
I guess I'm looking for examples to follow. Where can I see it done well without a lot of grinding?

among several people. you can always watch me dance

Oh, last thing...

you should really check out those other boards, take what people post with a huge grain of salt. Yehoodi is known for its holes who just want to rant. (and I am not excluded from that list, it doesn't make my point any less valid)