OK, maybe I'm completely ignorant, but I just don't get it. Seems to me that it's simply sloooow lindy done to blues/bluesy music. Just had a conversation with a friend on this very subject, so I know I'm not alone in this....but my biggest problem is that blues dancing requires an awful lot…
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
I'm with grasshopper and Swifty here -- I think we should call a spade a spade. It would be nice if "blues dancing" was really more about blues music. But, the truth is that "blues dancing", from what I have seen -- are often those close, intimate variety. All you have to do is ask any regular exchange goers "what is blues dancing". If they were to describe it, you'll almost always get something along the lines of slow dancing! In that sense, it is a de facto definition, regardless of what someone like Keither might say.
I prefer what I have in Rochester -- where we go to Dinosaur BBQ bar and dance to whatever the blues band there plays. Some songs are slow, some are fast -- but they are all blues. That is what blues should really be about.
Now, I do dance the slow, intimitate dance once in a while. But few things -- I keep my feelings under control, avoid moves that are obviously sensual, and keep my mind totally focused on the connection and energy flow between myself and my partner. I also tend to prefer partners who think the same way as myself -- that it is all about the connection. But most of the time, I stay out of that room because I don't like the feeling I get when I enter it.
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "dancer2k2"
what i see happening is, people will show up at blues weekends expecting one thing and will find something else, and their dancing will change. by the end of the weekend i can play a drasticly different set than i can at the begining of the weekend. over the course of the weekend people will gain the tools to dance to a much wider range of blues music.
That is an interesting observation! Thanks Devona. I wonder if there is a way to get them to enjoy a wider range of blues music before they come to a blues exchange, though?
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
Well, for one, understanding that there are blues dancers out there who aren't necessarily interested in grinding up against every person they touch is a start. We may not be a majority, but we do exist, a handful in every scene. A second is educating yourself by taking workshops and showing people. It's not enough to say, "Oh, I saw this at this dance or this exchange." Go to the workshops and understand that there's a difference so that you can make the distinction too. A third is bringing more blues into the playlists. There are plenty of uptempo (and some downright fast) swinging blues songs. They'll drop into a lindy set (since you can swingout to them) and they can add some variety.
I don't think there's any disingenuousness on the part of blues dancers about what goes on in the "blues rooms" at exchanges or house parties. Hell, we probably participate in it from time to time with our significant others. But we don't consider it blues dancing. People are looking for us to call a spade a spade. And we do. But when you ask that, you have to permit us to make the clear distinction between that grindy club dancing and the blues dancing that's being taught nationally (that you may not have seen!)
I think there's this misunderstanding by many lindy hoppers that blues dance must be done to slow, sexy music. And that's not true. I think you'd have to ask a lot of blues dancers before you'd find one that wouldn't rather dance to a live blues band (regardless of the tempo) than listen to DJed music all night.
It seems to me that in some respects you have to have a critical mass of blues dancers in a scene before you can start to make changes to the attitudes and ideas of what blues dancing is. You need some people to be doing some badass looking things to some good music. And then people will watch and be interested. And hopefully they'll learn something. And we can convince those people to go to the workshops and take the grind out of the dancing.
At least that's my (self-serving) hope.
I know I'm going to get the response (or at least I have in the past), that people moving to blues music is blues dancing and I can't make a distinction between grinding and thrusting and blues dancing. I disagree. Are people dancing balboa to swingin' big band music doing lindy hop?
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
So, I have a lot of opinions on this, most of which I'm not going to share really. This is one of those topics that, other than Ogden's posts, I wish I didn't feel the need to read. I love dancing. I love dancing the blues. I hope that I'm atune enough to my partner's signals that I only dance super close when I have the invitation and I'm a strong enough female to make it clear when my partner does not have the invitation or is making me uncomfortable. Ultimately, in dance, in conversation, and in life, I think the rewards are greater if you're willing to leave yourself a little vulnerable and are prepared to be exposed a little. For me, what's the worse that can happen in a blues dance? A guy puts his hand somewhere I don't want him to and I tell him to stop. That won't traumatize me.
I get really tired of reading on yehoodi everyone bitching about everyone else's dancing. I guess there's nothing to be done about that, but I prefer to have some compassion, understanding, and appreciation for expression that might just not be my style.
I'm in South Carolina this week visiting my parents. Last night I went to LT's Restaurant and Nite Life with my Dad because the Orangeburg Shag Club meets there on Wednesday nights. Mostly, they were dancing Carolina Shag, some 6 count swing, and then some slow sway songs. These are mostly 50s, 60s, 70 somethings. They're not "dancers". They don't go to workshops, or travel outside the state to dances, or have any idea who a nataional instructor is. They're just folks who love music and company and moving to the music in the ways that they know.
During one slow song, there was a couple dancing - they looked maybe 60 or 65 - they were dancing close, chest to chest and thigh to thigh and they were offset and then they both went down, almost to the ground, came back up and she did a small body roll. I'm pretty certain they didn't get this from a workshop or from 'modern blues'. Anyhow, I found that interesting.
(on another note, during the same song, a woman was dancing a slow song with a guy while holding her Bud Lite over his left shoulder...and actually drinking from it during the dance.)
I like dancing at dancer-dances, but really I love dancing at just folks dances. I like seeing how people are moved by music. And for me, blues is all about that. It's an intimate expression of an intense musical experience.
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
Keither, Here's the problem with your logic.
You're asking skeptics and non-believers to pony up the dough, spend money on airfare or gas, travel to a blues weekend, and pay for the workshops. That's the only way they'll understand what you're talking about?
What's wrong with trying to educate the masses without having them take some major blues field trip.
If I had a negative opinion of Balboa, didn't like the dance, or care for the scene, should I spend up to several hundred dollars to see if I could change my mind?
I won't even get into the fast blues lindy hop set issue.... OK, maybe I will. As a DJ in NY we have a vocal group the appreciates faster songs. They don't care as much for "fast blues," while most blues dancers who request blues always mean slow and sexy. I've played middle of the road blues songs and slightly appeased the purer lindy hoppers while the blues people still feel I didn't honor their request. I find that when people request blues at a Lindy Hop place, it means "slow and sexy". Maybe not for you Keither because you apparently feel you can dance blues to any speed, but it is to other people who consider themselves blues dancers and who go to those exchanges.
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "keither" People are looking for us to call a spade a spade. And we do. But when you ask that, you have to permit us to make the clear distinction between that grindy club dancing and the blues dancing that's being taught nationally (that you may not have seen!)
Uhm, actually, I'm specifically asking people to make that distinction, and call Blues Blues and call that other nonsense something else. The problem, unfortunately, is not with the real Blues dancers (as evidenced by the posts from Ogden and Devona). It's with the "something else" dancers who insist on calling what they are doing "Blues."
Devona, I wholeheartedly agree that the music and dancing is probably more "Blues" at Blues workshops and weekends, but I happen to agree with Alligator - it's alot to ask me to shell out the dough for that risk. I'll be here at the Capital Blues event in DC in January, if only because they've got Barbara Morrison coming. If the dancing makes me twitchy, at least I'll love the music. And I'll cull the herd for the dancers that I think are actually doing Blues. I've had some amazing Blues dances, and I am interested in learning how to follow it better.
Quoted from "JamieSue" Ultimately, in dance, in conversation, and in life, I think the rewards are greater if you're willing to leave yourself a little vulnerable and are prepared to be exposed a little. For me, what's the worse that can happen in a blues dance? A guy puts his hand somewhere I don't want him to and I tell him to stop. That won't traumatize me.
See, this is where we differ, I think. I think some dancers forget that there are still social rules that apply to physical contact, even if you're a dancer. I'm not okay with leaving myself "vulnerable" and "exposed" to a stranger. A lead that I'm familiar with will have much greater leeway with me, and I think that's appropriate. As for being touched inappropriately once, that won't traumatize me either, but that doesn't make it okay. My problem with the situation is that it tends to happen repeatedly. If I have even a 50 chance of having someone touch or hold me inappropriately during a dance, why on earth would I want to do that dance? That couple you saw at the Shag club probably knew each other well, maybe were even an actual couple. There are different rules for that. I also want to be clear that I'm not personally criticizing these folks for dancing the way that they do. If they and their partner are up for that, rock on. But I think too many people who enjoy this kind of "blues" dancing lack the ability to be 'atuned' to their partner's signals as you suggest. That's what I personally take issue with. They use the, "But this is blues, I'm supposed to do this!" excuse. Bzzzzt!
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
see nando, we dont expect you to pony up some dough and fly out to an all blues event to find out. but you keep saying that "well blues IS this way cause thats what i see". so you can either keep on thinking that, believe people when they say something different, or see for your self.
we have been trying to "educate the masses" for a while now, but every time a thread gets started on yehoodi about blues its allways the same old same old. on the blues boards we can actually have a discussion on a topic with out having to defend ourselves every 5 posts. it isnt possible to do that on yehoodi.
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "jlyertv" That is an interesting observation! Thanks Devona. I wonder if there is a way to get them to enjoy a wider range of blues music before they come to a blues exchange, though?
here is the rub:
most blues and "blues" dancers are melody dancers. melody dancing feels weird to a large amount of blues music seeing as its heavily rhythm based. with out having an idea of how to dance to the rhythm of blues music, many awesome dancible blues songs will clear the floor. if its a medium tempo song with a strong rhythm people will default to swinging out because lindy has a rhythm. more often then not swinging out doesnt feel right either, but people can ignore that and just do their default dance.
so basicly, most people dont know how to dance to most blues music.
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "dancer2k2" see nando, we dont expect you to pony up some dough and fly out to an all blues event to find out. but you keep saying that "well blues IS this way cause thats what i see". so you can either keep on thinking that, believe people when they say something different, or see for your self.
Well in Nando's case, he's been to blues events and is familiar with non-grindy blues.
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "dancer2k2" see nando, we dont expect you to pony up some dough and fly out to an all blues event to find out. but you keep saying that "well blues IS this way cause thats what i see". so you can either keep on thinking that, believe people when they say something different, or see for your self.
OK, first of all maybe I am playing Devil's Advocate a little, but honestly - the logic is still flawed.
So, let me call you out for a sec Devona. You are from NYC and consider yourself big in the blues scene. Have you done anything to promote the style you're talking about here in NYC? Even your boyfriend earlier had a comment about NYC blues in this thread
Quote Of course there are people who do bump and grind and call it "blues". Want to see that? Just go to some "blues parties" either here in NY or the Northwest.
So, if I was someone who wasn't into the scene, you - a NY dancer - would try and convince me to get into it simply by going to a weekend event at who knows where?
You blame lindy hoppers for the way the blues scene is, but why make the lindy hoppers jump thru hoops to see what it is that you want them to see.
Personally, I think lindy hoppers should invest more time into blues. Perhaps by having a blues class or two within a LINDY HOP weekend... and not make turn it into an excuse to hook up.
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
I will admit this.
From what I can tell, I've noticed some changes within the past year. A decline in "sex themed" blues exchanges. Emphasis on musicians and music at blues exchanges. And some less tawdry conversation on the boards when a blues exchange thread starts up.
I applaud that aspect, and respect the organizers who are focusing on creating a real scene for blues music lovers and people who are into the dance. But, we've still got a ways to go.
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
I guess I read this thread from beginning to end out of curiousity. I see a lot of interesting points, but pretty much it's the same ol' thing - boring.
I wish I'd get invited to these places where DJs are playing "Cruisin", that would be interesting. I think I may have heard it once at an event, but that person hasn't DJed there since.
I'm not going to get involved in the "what shold be played/what shouldn't be" arena. Some folks like my music selection and I'm sure some don't.
The topic of music can be extremely subjective, just ask me.
But I do find it interesting that there are so many experts on the music and the dance and I hardly ever see these people at events I'm at! Maybe I'm not traveling enough. Maybe I'm having too much fun DJing and dancing to notice...
Is all this grinding happening at parties, events...where? I feel left out.
The last time I got "grinded on" by some follow it was 3 1/2 years ago in New York City. I've done a great deal of dancing since and it's never happened. Am I doing something wrong?
Blues dancing, like any other dance can be translated into "throbbin, grindin, and humpin. It you want it to. So can any other art form.
How come no one screeches this much about Salsa? Or Tango?
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
Personally, I don't think Mugsy has seen this quote from you yet, Nando:
Personally, I think lindy hoppers should invest more time into blues. Perhaps by having a blues class or two within a LINDY HOP weekend... and not make turn it into an excuse to hook up.
I'm sorry, I just find that to be funny!
I believe Devona's point is that it's hard to take what you're saying seriously, because you never seem to go anywhere but you have a big opinion about what the "national scene" is like. It took me nearly 3 years of talking to you to get you to go to STLBX. Was that all bumping and grinding an hooking up? The event I recall you telling me that YOU went to (I think more than once) was Pittsburgh. You were at ATLX, but that was a lindy event with a Blues Room.
Now I'm sure you didn't tell me everything/everywhere that you go, but let's face it - of the NYers, who travels to events more than Devona?
But isn't it about time to drop the "hooking up" conversation - not just you, but everyone? You think nobody ever gets laid at a lindy event?
Hell, I bet even you've gotten some at a lindy event.
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "grasshopper" The problem, unfortunately, is not with the real Blues dancers (as evidenced by the posts from Ogden and Devona). It's with the "something else" dancers who insist on calling what they are doing "Blues."
Yet again, I am amused how the development of blues dancing exactly parallels what happened with lindy hop three years ago.
REAL blues dancers vs. WIGGLY blues dancers! Round one! FIGHT!
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "Alligator"
Personally, I think lindy hoppers should invest more time into blues. Perhaps by having a blues class or two within a LINDY HOP weekend... and not make turn it into an excuse to hook up.
Chance is offering classes at the Rhythmic Arts Festival in San Diego on New Year's! plug plug
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "julius"
Quoted from "Alligator"
Personally, I think lindy hoppers should invest more time into blues. Perhaps by having a blues class or two within a LINDY HOP weekend... and not make turn it into an excuse to hook up.
Chance is offering classes at the Rhythmic Arts Festival in San Diego on New Year's! plug plug
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "Alligator" I won't even get into the fast blues lindy hop set issue.... OK, maybe I will. As a DJ in NY we have a vocal group the appreciates faster songs. They don't care as much for "fast blues," while most blues dancers who request blues always mean slow and sexy. I've played middle of the road blues songs and slightly appeased the purer lindy hoppers while the blues people still feel I didn't honor their request. I find that when people request blues at a Lindy Hop place, it means "slow and sexy". Maybe not for you Keither because you apparently feel you can dance blues to any speed, but it is to other people who consider themselves blues dancers and who go to those exchanges.
I find the best way to deal with that mindset is to play some slow drag and other New Orleans-style jass. I actually did this recently at one of the regular fast dances that Seattle has and I was quite pleased by the results ... everyone in the room was dancing.
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "Dr. Feelgood" But isn't it about time to drop the "hooking up" conversation - not just you, but everyone? You think nobody ever gets laid at a lindy event?
Personally, I've heard more bawdy stories come out of Monsters of Swing than any real blues event I've heard of ;)
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "jlyertv"
Quoted from "dancer2k2"
what i see happening is, people will show up at blues weekends expecting one thing and will find something else, and their dancing will change. by the end of the weekend i can play a drasticly different set than i can at the begining of the weekend. over the course of the weekend people will gain the tools to dance to a much wider range of blues music.
That is an interesting observation! Thanks Devona. I wonder if there is a way to get them to enjoy a wider range of blues music before they come to a blues exchange, though?
One answer to that is lazy DJs. It's easy to pander to a crowd and play what they expect to hear. It's easy for a "blues" DJ to play a bunch of slow music and get a good response. It's a whole other thing for a DJ to play a bunch of songs from various eras and styles of blues music and get a good response. Yet the better DJs that I know out there do this time and time again in their music and that's why I love hearing them spin.
I think Devona also hit a nail when she said that many people don't know how to dance to blues music. I personally don't think alot of the dancers out there have enough tools to connect to the music. I'm not a dance teacher, I'm a DJ, and, I think, a decent blues dancer, but I was asked recently to teach a blues dance class. The lesson I ended up coming up with was taking a whole bunch of blues songs and having people dance to them, stopping and discussing the content of the song and how I hear it and how I connect to it, then having everyone dance again.
Songs that people think are default sexy, like Lou Rawls version of St. James Infirmary, are eye opening once people pay attention to them. It's a song about your dead girlfriend lying on a marble slab, about how you are also callous and wrapped up in your own ego by her death. Seriously, do you want to get sexy to that? Or Ruthie Foster's Travelin' Shoes, a song about starting your journey to heaven and redemption. You can tell who's really able to connect to the whole song when you play songs like this. When I hear Travelin' Shoes, I open up, a big smile comes across my face and I feel like I want to shout praise to the heavens (odd considering that I'm not religious). But most people in the room will just clue into the melody and think "sexy."
I don't think that this is just true with blues dancers. I see the same thing in lindy hoppers dancing to lindy movment. All they tend to hear is one element of the music, usually the melody, and match that. It would be better if they were able to connect with all aspects of the music. It's just for lindy, for many people the default emotion seems to be "happy," while for blues, for many people the default emotiona seems to be "sexy." And you know what? Neither is right.
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "Alligator"
So no wonder people still feel that there's too much grinding when a couple of "established" teachers can still give off that creep vibe.
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "jlyertv" Now, I do dance the slow, intimitate dance once in a while. But few things -- I keep my feelings under control, avoid moves that are obviously sensual, and keep my mind totally focused on the connection and energy flow between myself and my partner. I also tend to prefer partners who think the same way as myself -- that it is all about the connection.
Yes it's all about the connection. Great thanks.
Now I rant.
Avoid moves that are obviously sensual? WTF is wrong with sensual movement? Think of all the dancers you love to watch...their moves are sensual, right? If sensual is too close to erotic a term for you, how about passionate? Juicy. Delicious. Don't let's mix up juicy rich dance movement with the yucky smeary gross creepy stuff you guys have so eloquently described.
I've read (okay skimmed) every post to this point and I haven't seen a single mention of blues posture . I know I'm in the minority here, having actually studied blues dancing. With teachers. In classes and at workshops. And I've been taught that the connection, no matter how close, is open at the middle. Like Damon says, you and your partner make a pair of parentheses (close/touching at the heads and feet; gapped at the center). Or like Heidi and Charlie say, Leave a little room for the Lord.
Going to a blues workshop offers not only instruction in the dance, but classes like How not to be creepy. Essential.
And here's something else: It's possible to dance in open and have a totally creepy experience. And to dance in close close closed and have it be totally uncreepy.
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "Lindynymph"
Quoted from "Alligator"
So no wonder people still feel that there's too much grinding when a couple of "established" teachers can still give off that creep vibe.
Nando, you give off the creep vibe.
Hey Eden,
Maybe a teacher who promotes herself on and off the boards the way do shouldn't throw stones, OK "Nymph." Let's not call people out, lest they get called out too.
Not that many of the guys who you rub up with would complain of course.
And if a guy creeps you out, stop slapping his butt to get his attention.
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "Dr. Feelgood" Personally, I don't think Mugsy has seen this quote from you yet, Nando:
Personally, I think lindy hoppers should invest more time into blues. Perhaps by having a blues class or two within a LINDY HOP weekend... and not make turn it into an excuse to hook up.
I find that to be funny
Hey, some of the worst blues rooms I've seen and heard about have been at LINDY exchanges. What wrong with having a serious group of blues people try and fix that image by educating people at a Lindy exchange? Why can't you do that? Is that too serious a stand to take in order to promote the scene.
Quote I believe Devona's point is that it's hard to take what you're saying seriously, because you never seem to go anywhere but you have a big opinion about what the "national scene" is like. It took me nearly 3 years of talking to you to get you to go to STLBX. Was that all bumping and grinding an hooking up? The event I recall you telling me that YOU went to (I think more than once) was Pittsburgh. You were at ATLX, but that was a lindy event with a Blues Room.
Hey Steve, we had these conversations about STBLX. There was one major reason you wanted me to go - Kim Massie - who I loved. (Actually you also had talked to me in private about other things that you've enjoyed but we'll keep that in private. ;-) ) But after that year at STBLX, I remember having a conversation with you about how that exchange that year for me was just 'eh' as far as the dancing (and most of the live music) was concerned. I still had a good time, but I guess certain people overhyped the event for me.
And Steve, as I've stated earlier, I made a decision to cut down on exchanges this year becuase they were cutting into my freelance work and my finances. Unlike some people, I've gotten tired of draining my savings account to hit every single exchange - but I know lots of people who still keep me posted, and I do feel after taking a step back that can still form a valid opinion.
I've been to a lot more exchanges than Pitt and ATLX. I'll argue that I started going to them before you. And I'll argue that if you take away your blues weekends and exchanges, that I've been to more lindy exchanges than you. Of course since you've become more of a Blues DJ god in recent times, you might still think my thoughts don't hold that much water, but we've talked about a lot of subjects before and have been in agreement in lots of it. Maybe you'll see me soon enough. I'll be going to some events in the future.
Quote Now I'm sure you didn't tell me everything/everywhere that you go, but let's face it - of the NYers, who travels to events more than Devona?
So are you saying that quantity of exchanges makes someone an expert. I suppose Eff is an expert on Yehoodi cause out of all Yehoodites, he posts the most.
Quote But isn't it about time to drop the "hooking up" conversation - not just you, but everyone? You think nobody ever gets laid at a lindy event? Hell, I bet even you've gotten some at a lindy event.
Originally posted Thursday, November 24, 2005 (6 years ago)
You know what I find funny.
Several people on these boards question the validity of my statements because I haven't been to the 'flavor of the month' exchange 2005. Saying I have this BIG opinion of the National scene and don't go out.
Yet, I keep getting PMs and IMs from people who seem to agree with stuff that I say, and some that have a take and are willing to have a nice conversation without trying to invalidate my 'status.'
So, I guess I'm not so far off the mark for someone who hasn't accured Frequent Lindy Flyer Miles this year.
Originally posted Friday, November 25, 2005 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "skearney" Avoid moves that are obviously sensual? WTF is wrong with sensual movement? Think of all the dancers you love to watch...their moves are sensual, right? If sensual is too close to erotic a term for you, how about passionate? Juicy. Delicious. Don't let's mix up juicy rich dance movement with the yucky smeary gross creepy stuff you guys have so eloquently described.
I think your point about "sensual" being too close to erotic is quite close to the core issue here. It is like a game with words -- what words you should choose. I think my usage of "sensual" probably is more like other people's use of "sexual".
That said, I'd rather not post here the real reason why I picked the word sensual, so I'll send you a PM.
Originally posted Friday, November 25, 2005 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "bryn" Well in Nando's case, he's been to blues events and is familiar with non-grindy blues.
actually thats funny because I have been to a good amount of blues events and oddly enough have only seen Nando at one of them...
I noticed him because he was busy sucking face with someone on the dance floor for most of the night.
Face it nando, the only reason you are reeling from these make out comments is because it is something you use to do! You had run off to your hole for awhile because it has burned you time and time again.
Overall, it doesn't matter where you have been. Just don't post that you are the authority of something when you don't know [bleep!] from shinola.
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Someone help me understand blues dancing
OK, maybe I'm completely ignorant, but I just don't get it. Seems to me that it's simply sloooow lindy done to blues/bluesy music. Just had a conversation with a friend on this very subject, so I know I'm not alone in this....but my biggest problem is that blues dancing requires an awful lot…
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I'm with grasshopper and Swifty here -- I think we should call a spade a spade. It would be nice if "blues dancing" was really more about blues music. But, the truth is that "blues dancing", from what I have seen -- are often those close, intimate variety. All you have to do is ask any regular exchange goers "what is blues dancing". If they were to describe it, you'll almost always get something along the lines of slow dancing! In that sense, it is a de facto definition, regardless of what someone like Keither might say.
I prefer what I have in Rochester -- where we go to Dinosaur BBQ bar and dance to whatever the blues band there plays. Some songs are slow, some are fast -- but they are all blues. That is what blues should really be about.
Now, I do dance the slow, intimitate dance once in a while. But few things -- I keep my feelings under control, avoid moves that are obviously sensual, and keep my mind totally focused on the connection and energy flow between myself and my partner. I also tend to prefer partners who think the same way as myself -- that it is all about the connection. But most of the time, I stay out of that room because I don't like the feeling I get when I enter it.
That is an interesting observation! Thanks Devona. I wonder if there is a way to get them to enjoy a wider range of blues music before they come to a blues exchange, though?
Well, for one, understanding that there are blues dancers out there who aren't necessarily interested in grinding up against every person they touch is a start. We may not be a majority, but we do exist, a handful in every scene. A second is educating yourself by taking workshops and showing people. It's not enough to say, "Oh, I saw this at this dance or this exchange." Go to the workshops and understand that there's a difference so that you can make the distinction too. A third is bringing more blues into the playlists. There are plenty of uptempo (and some downright fast) swinging blues songs. They'll drop into a lindy set (since you can swingout to them) and they can add some variety.
I don't think there's any disingenuousness on the part of blues dancers about what goes on in the "blues rooms" at exchanges or house parties. Hell, we probably participate in it from time to time with our significant others. But we don't consider it blues dancing. People are looking for us to call a spade a spade. And we do. But when you ask that, you have to permit us to make the clear distinction between that grindy club dancing and the blues dancing that's being taught nationally (that you may not have seen!)
I think there's this misunderstanding by many lindy hoppers that blues dance must be done to slow, sexy music. And that's not true. I think you'd have to ask a lot of blues dancers before you'd find one that wouldn't rather dance to a live blues band (regardless of the tempo) than listen to DJed music all night.
It seems to me that in some respects you have to have a critical mass of blues dancers in a scene before you can start to make changes to the attitudes and ideas of what blues dancing is. You need some people to be doing some badass looking things to some good music. And then people will watch and be interested. And hopefully they'll learn something. And we can convince those people to go to the workshops and take the grind out of the dancing.
At least that's my (self-serving) hope.
I know I'm going to get the response (or at least I have in the past), that people moving to blues music is blues dancing and I can't make a distinction between grinding and thrusting and blues dancing. I disagree. Are people dancing balboa to swingin' big band music doing lindy hop?
So, I have a lot of opinions on this, most of which I'm not going to share really. This is one of those topics that, other than Ogden's posts, I wish I didn't feel the need to read. I love dancing. I love dancing the blues. I hope that I'm atune enough to my partner's signals that I only dance super close when I have the invitation and I'm a strong enough female to make it clear when my partner does not have the invitation or is making me uncomfortable. Ultimately, in dance, in conversation, and in life, I think the rewards are greater if you're willing to leave yourself a little vulnerable and are prepared to be exposed a little. For me, what's the worse that can happen in a blues dance? A guy puts his hand somewhere I don't want him to and I tell him to stop. That won't traumatize me. I get really tired of reading on yehoodi everyone bitching about everyone else's dancing. I guess there's nothing to be done about that, but I prefer to have some compassion, understanding, and appreciation for expression that might just not be my style.
I'm in South Carolina this week visiting my parents. Last night I went to LT's Restaurant and Nite Life with my Dad because the Orangeburg Shag Club meets there on Wednesday nights. Mostly, they were dancing Carolina Shag, some 6 count swing, and then some slow sway songs. These are mostly 50s, 60s, 70 somethings. They're not "dancers". They don't go to workshops, or travel outside the state to dances, or have any idea who a nataional instructor is. They're just folks who love music and company and moving to the music in the ways that they know.
During one slow song, there was a couple dancing - they looked maybe 60 or 65 - they were dancing close, chest to chest and thigh to thigh and they were offset and then they both went down, almost to the ground, came back up and she did a small body roll. I'm pretty certain they didn't get this from a workshop or from 'modern blues'. Anyhow, I found that interesting.
(on another note, during the same song, a woman was dancing a slow song with a guy while holding her Bud Lite over his left shoulder...and actually drinking from it during the dance.)
I like dancing at dancer-dances, but really I love dancing at just folks dances. I like seeing how people are moved by music. And for me, blues is all about that. It's an intimate expression of an intense musical experience.
Keither, Here's the problem with your logic.
You're asking skeptics and non-believers to pony up the dough, spend money on airfare or gas, travel to a blues weekend, and pay for the workshops. That's the only way they'll understand what you're talking about?
What's wrong with trying to educate the masses without having them take some major blues field trip.
If I had a negative opinion of Balboa, didn't like the dance, or care for the scene, should I spend up to several hundred dollars to see if I could change my mind?
I won't even get into the fast blues lindy hop set issue.... OK, maybe I will. As a DJ in NY we have a vocal group the appreciates faster songs. They don't care as much for "fast blues," while most blues dancers who request blues always mean slow and sexy. I've played middle of the road blues songs and slightly appeased the purer lindy hoppers while the blues people still feel I didn't honor their request. I find that when people request blues at a Lindy Hop place, it means "slow and sexy". Maybe not for you Keither because you apparently feel you can dance blues to any speed, but it is to other people who consider themselves blues dancers and who go to those exchanges.
http://g4tv.com/attackoftheshow
Maybe, since you can categorize some big band music with Bal.
BUT people dancing blues to swingin' big band are doing bad lindy hop. :-)
http://g4tv.com/attackoftheshow
Uhm, actually, I'm specifically asking people to make that distinction, and call Blues Blues and call that other nonsense something else. The problem, unfortunately, is not with the real Blues dancers (as evidenced by the posts from Ogden and Devona). It's with the "something else" dancers who insist on calling what they are doing "Blues."
Devona, I wholeheartedly agree that the music and dancing is probably more "Blues" at Blues workshops and weekends, but I happen to agree with Alligator - it's alot to ask me to shell out the dough for that risk. I'll be here at the Capital Blues event in DC in January, if only because they've got Barbara Morrison coming. If the dancing makes me twitchy, at least I'll love the music. And I'll cull the herd for the dancers that I think are actually doing Blues. I've had some amazing Blues dances, and I am interested in learning how to follow it better.
See, this is where we differ, I think. I think some dancers forget that there are still social rules that apply to physical contact, even if you're a dancer. I'm not okay with leaving myself "vulnerable" and "exposed" to a stranger. A lead that I'm familiar with will have much greater leeway with me, and I think that's appropriate. As for being touched inappropriately once, that won't traumatize me either, but that doesn't make it okay. My problem with the situation is that it tends to happen repeatedly. If I have even a 50 chance of having someone touch or hold me inappropriately during a dance, why on earth would I want to do that dance? That couple you saw at the Shag club probably knew each other well, maybe were even an actual couple. There are different rules for that. I also want to be clear that I'm not personally criticizing these folks for dancing the way that they do. If they and their partner are up for that, rock on. But I think too many people who enjoy this kind of "blues" dancing lack the ability to be 'atuned' to their partner's signals as you suggest. That's what I personally take issue with. They use the, "But this is blues, I'm supposed to do this!" excuse. Bzzzzt!
see nando, we dont expect you to pony up some dough and fly out to an all blues event to find out. but you keep saying that "well blues IS this way cause thats what i see". so you can either keep on thinking that, believe people when they say something different, or see for your self.
we have been trying to "educate the masses" for a while now, but every time a thread gets started on yehoodi about blues its allways the same old same old. on the blues boards we can actually have a discussion on a topic with out having to defend ourselves every 5 posts. it isnt possible to do that on yehoodi.
here is the rub: most blues and "blues" dancers are melody dancers. melody dancing feels weird to a large amount of blues music seeing as its heavily rhythm based. with out having an idea of how to dance to the rhythm of blues music, many awesome dancible blues songs will clear the floor. if its a medium tempo song with a strong rhythm people will default to swinging out because lindy has a rhythm. more often then not swinging out doesnt feel right either, but people can ignore that and just do their default dance. so basicly, most people dont know how to dance to most blues music.
Well in Nando's case, he's been to blues events and is familiar with non-grindy blues.
OK, first of all maybe I am playing Devil's Advocate a little, but honestly - the logic is still flawed.
So, let me call you out for a sec Devona. You are from NYC and consider yourself big in the blues scene. Have you done anything to promote the style you're talking about here in NYC? Even your boyfriend earlier had a comment about NYC blues in this thread
So, if I was someone who wasn't into the scene, you - a NY dancer - would try and convince me to get into it simply by going to a weekend event at who knows where?
You blame lindy hoppers for the way the blues scene is, but why make the lindy hoppers jump thru hoops to see what it is that you want them to see.
Personally, I think lindy hoppers should invest more time into blues. Perhaps by having a blues class or two within a LINDY HOP weekend... and not make turn it into an excuse to hook up.
http://g4tv.com/attackoftheshow
I will admit this.
From what I can tell, I've noticed some changes within the past year. A decline in "sex themed" blues exchanges. Emphasis on musicians and music at blues exchanges. And some less tawdry conversation on the boards when a blues exchange thread starts up.
I applaud that aspect, and respect the organizers who are focusing on creating a real scene for blues music lovers and people who are into the dance. But, we've still got a ways to go.
http://g4tv.com/attackoftheshow
I guess I read this thread from beginning to end out of curiousity. I see a lot of interesting points, but pretty much it's the same ol' thing - boring.
I wish I'd get invited to these places where DJs are playing "Cruisin", that would be interesting. I think I may have heard it once at an event, but that person hasn't DJed there since.
I'm not going to get involved in the "what shold be played/what shouldn't be" arena. Some folks like my music selection and I'm sure some don't. The topic of music can be extremely subjective, just ask me.
But I do find it interesting that there are so many experts on the music and the dance and I hardly ever see these people at events I'm at! Maybe I'm not traveling enough. Maybe I'm having too much fun DJing and dancing to notice...
Is all this grinding happening at parties, events...where? I feel left out.
The last time I got "grinded on" by some follow it was 3 1/2 years ago in New York City. I've done a great deal of dancing since and it's never happened. Am I doing something wrong?
Blues dancing, like any other dance can be translated into "throbbin, grindin, and humpin. It you want it to. So can any other art form. How come no one screeches this much about Salsa? Or Tango?
Oh wait, Salsa and Tango have "steps".
(sigh)
Personally, I don't think Mugsy has seen this quote from you yet, Nando:
Personally, I think lindy hoppers should invest more time into blues. Perhaps by having a blues class or two within a LINDY HOP weekend... and not make turn it into an excuse to hook up.
I'm sorry, I just find that to be funny!
I believe Devona's point is that it's hard to take what you're saying seriously, because you never seem to go anywhere but you have a big opinion about what the "national scene" is like. It took me nearly 3 years of talking to you to get you to go to STLBX. Was that all bumping and grinding an hooking up? The event I recall you telling me that YOU went to (I think more than once) was Pittsburgh. You were at ATLX, but that was a lindy event with a Blues Room.
Now I'm sure you didn't tell me everything/everywhere that you go, but let's face it - of the NYers, who travels to events more than Devona?
But isn't it about time to drop the "hooking up" conversation - not just you, but everyone? You think nobody ever gets laid at a lindy event? Hell, I bet even you've gotten some at a lindy event.
Yet again, I am amused how the development of blues dancing exactly parallels what happened with lindy hop three years ago.
REAL blues dancers vs. WIGGLY blues dancers! Round one! FIGHT!
Chance is offering classes at the Rhythmic Arts Festival in San Diego on New Year's! plug plug
Rhythmic Arts Festival
I'll be there - in a tux, even!
Also, Julius and Swifty make me happy.
man, i wish i could go.
I find the best way to deal with that mindset is to play some slow drag and other New Orleans-style jass. I actually did this recently at one of the regular fast dances that Seattle has and I was quite pleased by the results ... everyone in the room was dancing.
Personally, I've heard more bawdy stories come out of Monsters of Swing than any real blues event I've heard of ;)
One answer to that is lazy DJs. It's easy to pander to a crowd and play what they expect to hear. It's easy for a "blues" DJ to play a bunch of slow music and get a good response. It's a whole other thing for a DJ to play a bunch of songs from various eras and styles of blues music and get a good response. Yet the better DJs that I know out there do this time and time again in their music and that's why I love hearing them spin.
I think Devona also hit a nail when she said that many people don't know how to dance to blues music. I personally don't think alot of the dancers out there have enough tools to connect to the music. I'm not a dance teacher, I'm a DJ, and, I think, a decent blues dancer, but I was asked recently to teach a blues dance class. The lesson I ended up coming up with was taking a whole bunch of blues songs and having people dance to them, stopping and discussing the content of the song and how I hear it and how I connect to it, then having everyone dance again.
Songs that people think are default sexy, like Lou Rawls version of St. James Infirmary, are eye opening once people pay attention to them. It's a song about your dead girlfriend lying on a marble slab, about how you are also callous and wrapped up in your own ego by her death. Seriously, do you want to get sexy to that? Or Ruthie Foster's Travelin' Shoes, a song about starting your journey to heaven and redemption. You can tell who's really able to connect to the whole song when you play songs like this. When I hear Travelin' Shoes, I open up, a big smile comes across my face and I feel like I want to shout praise to the heavens (odd considering that I'm not religious). But most people in the room will just clue into the melody and think "sexy."
I don't think that this is just true with blues dancers. I see the same thing in lindy hoppers dancing to lindy movment. All they tend to hear is one element of the music, usually the melody, and match that. It would be better if they were able to connect with all aspects of the music. It's just for lindy, for many people the default emotion seems to be "happy," while for blues, for many people the default emotiona seems to be "sexy." And you know what? Neither is right.
Nando, you give off the creep vibe.
Yes it's all about the connection. Great thanks.
Now I rant.
Avoid moves that are obviously sensual? WTF is wrong with sensual movement? Think of all the dancers you love to watch...their moves are sensual, right? If sensual is too close to erotic a term for you, how about passionate? Juicy. Delicious. Don't let's mix up juicy rich dance movement with the yucky smeary gross creepy stuff you guys have so eloquently described.
I've read (okay skimmed) every post to this point and I haven't seen a single mention of blues posture . I know I'm in the minority here, having actually studied blues dancing. With teachers. In classes and at workshops. And I've been taught that the connection, no matter how close, is open at the middle. Like Damon says, you and your partner make a pair of parentheses (close/touching at the heads and feet; gapped at the center). Or like Heidi and Charlie say, Leave a little room for the Lord.
Going to a blues workshop offers not only instruction in the dance, but classes like How not to be creepy. Essential.
And here's something else: It's possible to dance in open and have a totally creepy experience. And to dance in close close closed and have it be totally uncreepy.
Hey Eden,
Maybe a teacher who promotes herself on and off the boards the way do shouldn't throw stones, OK "Nymph." Let's not call people out, lest they get called out too.
Not that many of the guys who you rub up with would complain of course.
And if a guy creeps you out, stop slapping his butt to get his attention.
http://g4tv.com/attackoftheshow
Hey, some of the worst blues rooms I've seen and heard about have been at LINDY exchanges. What wrong with having a serious group of blues people try and fix that image by educating people at a Lindy exchange? Why can't you do that? Is that too serious a stand to take in order to promote the scene.
Hey Steve, we had these conversations about STBLX. There was one major reason you wanted me to go - Kim Massie - who I loved. (Actually you also had talked to me in private about other things that you've enjoyed but we'll keep that in private. ;-) ) But after that year at STBLX, I remember having a conversation with you about how that exchange that year for me was just 'eh' as far as the dancing (and most of the live music) was concerned. I still had a good time, but I guess certain people overhyped the event for me.
And Steve, as I've stated earlier, I made a decision to cut down on exchanges this year becuase they were cutting into my freelance work and my finances. Unlike some people, I've gotten tired of draining my savings account to hit every single exchange - but I know lots of people who still keep me posted, and I do feel after taking a step back that can still form a valid opinion.
I've been to a lot more exchanges than Pitt and ATLX. I'll argue that I started going to them before you. And I'll argue that if you take away your blues weekends and exchanges, that I've been to more lindy exchanges than you. Of course since you've become more of a Blues DJ god in recent times, you might still think my thoughts don't hold that much water, but we've talked about a lot of subjects before and have been in agreement in lots of it. Maybe you'll see me soon enough. I'll be going to some events in the future.
So are you saying that quantity of exchanges makes someone an expert. I suppose Eff is an expert on Yehoodi cause out of all Yehoodites, he posts the most.
Do you have a credit card? :-)
http://g4tv.com/attackoftheshow
You know what I find funny.
Several people on these boards question the validity of my statements because I haven't been to the 'flavor of the month' exchange 2005. Saying I have this BIG opinion of the National scene and don't go out.
Yet, I keep getting PMs and IMs from people who seem to agree with stuff that I say, and some that have a take and are willing to have a nice conversation without trying to invalidate my 'status.'
So, I guess I'm not so far off the mark for someone who hasn't accured Frequent Lindy Flyer Miles this year.
http://g4tv.com/attackoftheshow
!
I think your point about "sensual" being too close to erotic is quite close to the core issue here. It is like a game with words -- what words you should choose. I think my usage of "sensual" probably is more like other people's use of "sexual".
That said, I'd rather not post here the real reason why I picked the word sensual, so I'll send you a PM.
actually thats funny because I have been to a good amount of blues events and oddly enough have only seen Nando at one of them...
I noticed him because he was busy sucking face with someone on the dance floor for most of the night.
Face it nando, the only reason you are reeling from these make out comments is because it is something you use to do! You had run off to your hole for awhile because it has burned you time and time again.
Overall, it doesn't matter where you have been. Just don't post that you are the authority of something when you don't know [bleep!] from shinola.
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