I took my first 6-count class last summer and have pretty much been continually taking classes since. I still consider myself a newbie, but not a complete newbie.
This Friday, Georgia Tech is hosting their monthly dance which is usually the largest social swing event every month. It's always fun with great live bands and lots of dancers. The floor varies from month to month but I've never had a problem with it. A lot of the dancers are students and for many of them, the only instruction they've had is a couple (or less) of the free 1-hour pre-dance lessons.
OK, now on to my real question. Two of them, really. First, how can I better lead the complete newbies. On several occasions, I've been dancing with a follow and really struggling to communicate with her. I'll try to lead something and her frame will completely collapse. She'll turn the wrong way, then back the other way, then eventually stop facing away from me. (Not every time...just an example.)
At first I thought, "man, these chicks suck!" But then I'd look up and see a good lead leading the hell out of the very same follow and they'd both be having a great time. So there must be some way to get better connection with the noodle arms. Does anyone have any tips to offer? Should I stiffen my frame to try and lead with my center more or go with the flow and be "noodly", as well? Over-exagerate my leads? Anything? (I'll admit this sometimes happens with great follows, too, but in those cases, I usually already know I've given an ambiguous lead and I'm completely to blame.)
Second, often times the good leads will be leading swingouts and I KNOW these follows don't know how to lindy. This probably explains why the follow's expressions often range from surprise to deer-in-the-headlights to abject terror. I don't mind surprising a follow and when I manage to do it, I usually get a nice smile. But I don't want to scare anyone.
In the past, whenever I'm social dancing, I usually ask the follow if she knows lindy. If not, then I don't lead swingouts. Is that the unneccessary? Is it OK to just lead a couple of swingouts and see how the follow keeps up?
Originally posted Monday, January 9, 2006 (6 years ago)
Great question. I understand your confusion and I think many of us went though the same thing.
The thing about really good follows, is they have enough experience to follow even if the leader is not as clear.
There is nothing in particular I can suggest other than to say as you become a better lead, your lead will become much clearer. You will learn to guide beginner follows better through moves, and fake it better.
When I was a beginner lead, there was a beginner follow whom I just couldn't dance with. It was like we were listening to two totally different songs. I'd watch her dance with all these other leads, and she looked fine. I was dancing with plenty of other follows and doing just fine. But we just couldn't dance together.
We were friendly, so we felt obligated to dance with each other. After each dance we walked away from each other like we had a one night stand of really bad sex. We would generally avoid dancing with each other unless it would have ben awkward not to.
A couple of years go by. We were both on the dance floor, song ends with our current partner, and we turn and see each other. We looked at each other and figured it had been awhile since we tortured each other. I was a little bummed, because I was really having a good night of dancing.
We had a really great dance! We looked at each other, smiled and laughed with a little amazement. She said "Remember when we used to really suck!" And from that point forward we never had a problem dancing with each other.
Sometimes your weaknesses as a dancer, combined with the follows weaknesses as a dancer, will just make for a bad combination. The more experience you get, the more you eliminate your weaknesses, the better you get at compensating for the followers weaknesses, the less you are going to run into these types of problems. Be patient with yourself and your follows, it will come.
Originally posted Monday, January 9, 2006 (6 years ago)
There's definitely such a thing as "over-leading" a move for a newer dancer.
I've had the same experience as you, where I have barely been able to lead someone in step-step-rockstep, and her next partner she is swinging out like a natural. It can make you feel incompetent.
Remember though that everyone leads slightly differently, and everyone follows differently. It's possible that the other lead is simply leading a swingout / charleston / balboa in the way that the follow learned it.
Don't sweat it too much. You learn over time which moves are easily "translatable" by you to a newer dancer and which ones are best reserved for more experienced follows. I also lead moves with newer dancers that I don't do with intermediate dancers because they usually have a harder time following it after learning to do the move a certain way. Sometimes a little knowledge gets in the way of just following.
Originally posted Monday, January 9, 2006 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "Slick Rik" There's definitely such a thing as "over-leading" a move for a newer dancer.
Rik raises a good point, that I didn't quite know how to deal with in my post. I didn't say, "be more clear in your leading," because many beginners will sometimes translate that to muscling a follow through the moves. Clarity will generally come through experience.
There are much better leads than I on this board who may be able to explain how to work on clarity. For me, it wasn't a conscious thing. It just happened.
Originally posted Monday, January 9, 2006 (6 years ago)
Using more force is usually not the answer, IMHO. Instead, you need to think a bit like an Akido master, and use the follow's own momentum and timing against her, trip her, get her down on the floor in a wrist lock, and take her wallet... Er, perhaps I went too far with that metaphor.
No, the key is sensing her timing and balance, and being able to use minimal force to move her by adjusting your own timing accordingly. For example, if someone was just say, walking forward normally, it'd take less force to push them off to the left or right if you timed your push exactly at the moment only one foot was on the ground and they were beginning to fall into the next step (ie, when they were least grounded). If your push occurred when both feet were planted, it'd probably be more difficult. Similarly, if someone is moving forward, you can easly push them in the same direction they were going, but it's much harder to reverse their direction and push them the other way.
So, in a dance context, I'll often lead a barrell roll with complete newbies who I know have never seen it, but to make it work, I have to find a point in time where she's already moving forward (perhaps even a bit off balance) and it's almost as if she falls where I want her. In fact, "controlled falling" isn't such a bad metaphor.
Another thing I do with beginners is adjust my own footwork to be in time with theirs, even if they get off time. For example, newbies will often omit a couple of beats of a 6 count basic. I just go with that when it happens, rather than try to force them to stay on track. I think that makes everything feel smoother and less awkward for them. (If they seem to lose the 6 count pattern entirely, then I just go back to closed position for a while to get the rhythm back into their heads.)
If they have total noodle arms, I tend to do more two handed wrap moves. I recommend moving around her a bit more; keep her own speed down so that you don't lose control and/or collide with other couples.
Mostly, I don't try to lead swingouts if they've only had 6-count. I think often they'll get tripped up on the triples, and even if they struggle through it, might not enjoy it that much (varies by case, obviously.) Even if they can handle it they may be like "what was that, did I do that right?" and feel overly self-conscious. I just try to make it fun and keep them relaxed and not worrying about whether they're doing it "right." It always annoys me to see guys cranking follows through 17,000 different variations/spins as she barely holds on.
Originally posted Monday, January 9, 2006 (6 years ago)
I have been dancing for less then a year so my complete newbie days are still fresh in my mind.
After my very first jitterbug lesson, and before knowing any Lindy at all, I had an opportunity to dance with a lead who made me feel as though I already knew how to dance. He employed a lot of closed position moves. Moves where he had good control over where I was placed. He also let me know verbally what was coming up.. AND counted out the steps. At the beginning of the song I was a bit confused by the stuff he was saying but by the end of the song AND the other dances we had that night I felt very confident and in control - especially when he 'called out' a move he had already done with me. I remembered how it went and was able to 'follow it' better.
My frame/connection, frankly, sucked big time until I had a few private lessons where we concentrated only on those items. I have no idea how I followed ANYTHING anyone tried to lead until I had a better understanding of frame/connection. I think that I tried to follow visually (if that makes any sense).
Incidentally - I still have awesome dances with the lead noted above. He just doesn't have to count and give me the 'play by play' anymore.
Originally posted Monday, January 9, 2006 (6 years ago)
Definately go for small steps, keep her close by watching your frame, and keep your moves controlled and gentle (but never noodly or jerky). I like to compare leading to steering a car-there's no beginning or end while the car is moving, and there certainly is follow-through and constant contact points!
Listen to your follow's body language, look at her eyes, and feel free to get off beat for a while, during turns, etc. It is all about having SAFE fun.
Originally posted Monday, January 9, 2006 (6 years ago)
One Peter Flahiff, master of the clear lead, told me once that the clear lead wasn't a heavy lead, merely a direct one. Follows at first think like detectives, "what is he leading me in?" You want to make your lead so direct, so singular, so obvious, so lacking in any distracting movements or other possible miscommunications that she has absolutely no reason not to follow you that way.
Originally posted Monday, January 9, 2006 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "Deacon Jones" You can't push on a noodle but you can pull. Use moves that require a follow to go forward.
A sidepass is an example of such a move. It works if even if the follow has noodle arms. A locked whip should also work just fine with noodle arms.
Avoid moves like sugar pushes, tuck turns which require the follow to have some knowledge/understanding of a frame.
...
I disagree about tuck turns. I can lead almost any newbie in a tuck turn without having to make it painful. Sugar pushes are rough though.
Originally posted Monday, January 9, 2006 (6 years ago)
In a similar vein, how about dancing with new leads?
I'm in a scene that is growing a lot so I end up dancing with several brand new leads every week. Some do fine and just lead the basic and maybe a turn but some have a really hard time with figuring out the pattern. I find myself wanting to "help" them find where the rock step goes by backleading a bit.
Originally posted Monday, January 9, 2006 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "annabanana" In a similar vein, how about dancing with new leads?
I'm in a scene that is growing a lot so I end up dancing with several brand new leads every week. Some do fine and just lead the basic and maybe a turn but some have a really hard time with figuring out the pattern. I find myself wanting to "help" them find where the rock step goes by backleading a bit.
What is everyone's opinion on this?
I haven't been dancing for a long time, just past a year and a handful of months, but I had an interesting experience last week that I shared with a friend of mine. I was dancing with a lead who'd been taking lessons just at around 2 months and for the first portion of the dance things were rocky. We were really off the music and I was doing my best to follow and having a heck of a time doing so.
I decided to try something that a friend and a handful of teachers have recently started explaining to me 'pulsing' to see what would happen, if anything. I overexaggerated a continuous pulse, that was more visually obvious than I'm used to feeling from someone, and suddenly we managed to be on with the music, and did the second half of the dance without awkward problems as with the first 1/3.
Not sure if that's happened/worked for anybody else, but it surely surprised me for that brief moment.
Originally posted Monday, January 9, 2006 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "annabanana" In a similar vein, how about dancing with new leads?
I'm in a scene that is growing a lot so I end up dancing with several brand new leads every week. Some do fine and just lead the basic and maybe a turn but some have a really hard time with figuring out the pattern. I find myself wanting to "help" them find where the rock step goes by backleading a bit.
What is everyone's opinion on this?
IMO, backleading is not a good thing ... smiling and trying to make the lead more relaxed is crucial! If you're totally off the beat, you can always say "you know, I'm completely offbeat, can we start again" and see if that helps. If the lead asks you for suggestions in a particular area, you could probably make one or two, but I think it's always a good idea to leave instructing to the instructors.
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Originally posted Monday, January 9, 2006 (6 years ago)
Wow! There's a lot of great stuff, here. Thanks for the tips. Haha, at the last dance, a buddy and I were warning each other about who the "noodles" were. Now I'm actually looking forward to dancing with some. It makes sense that almost anyone can lead a good follow.
I'm definitely going to review this thread before heading to the dance. I might even print out a "cheat sheet" of some of the better tips so I can refresh them in my mind during the dance.
Originally posted Monday, January 9, 2006 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "GemZombie" I disagree about tuck turns. I can lead almost any newbie in a tuck turn without having to make it painful. Sugar pushes are rough though.
You never have to make it painful. Your partner is always more important than the move you're trying to lead. Best thing to do is try something and see what kind of move works and what kind doesn't.
I've heard follows complain of sore soulders from being manhandled. One lady from a Carolina shag class I took showed us a bruise she had on her hand because shaggers often hold the hand by pressing the thumb down on the back side of the hand.
Originally posted Monday, January 9, 2006 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "annabanana" In a similar vein, how about dancing with new leads?
I'm in a scene that is growing a lot so I end up dancing with several brand new leads every week. Some do fine and just lead the basic and maybe a turn but some have a really hard time with figuring out the pattern. I find myself wanting to "help" them find where the rock step goes by backleading a bit.
What is everyone's opinion on this?
Originally posted Monday, January 9, 2006 (6 years ago)
Wexie and Rik make some excellent suggestions. I agree with Phlurg's too, although I think it's somewhat of an advanced concept, and if you don't get it just yet, file it away for future reference. Mostly, I think you should just keep dancing and practice. Make sure to dance with as many different follows as you can, and try them all again for different songs and on different nights.
If you're there for the introductory lesson, I'd try to work some of those moves in during the night but not in the order they were taught. For instance, the instructors might teach in 6-count an outside turn for the woman followed by an inside turn. If you can separate those during the song, the follow should be able to follow your lead and not have to think too much about where to put her feet. (Someone else may be able to think of a better example.) It is still tricky though with the noodle arms.
Also, I think body leads are a fabulous thing. It's your way of committing to a move so I don't have to think about what it was that you wanted me to do. They're crucial for some of the more subtle steps too by the way. I took privates for a while and my session would overlap for a few minutes with the guy taking a lesson after me. He never understood the body lead thing, and it was very tedious dancing with him.
And lastly, I don't think trying to just lead someone into a swing out is a good idea. Learning lindy can be a bit "high pressure" because it looks so much harder than 6-count. Also, it's hard to do any following visually with the swing out since the lead's steps are not mirror images of the follow's steps. A beginning follow has probably used visual cues like this without even realizing it, so it's hard to ask her to give that up until she's had more practice.
And Anna, I hear you about dancing with the new leads. While it can be a very uncomfortable 3 minutes, it's best to wait until they ask for help before offering.
Originally posted Tuesday, January 10, 2006 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "televandalist" In the past, whenever I'm social dancing, I usually ask the follow if she knows lindy. If not, then I don't lead swingouts. Is that the unneccessary? Is it OK to just lead a couple of swingouts and see how the follow keeps up?
What's lindy? What's East Coast? When I get asked this by someone I've never danced with I'll usually play dumb and ask them what is 'lindy' or 'East Coast' or 'Jitterbug.' I was never taught a difference - my six and eight count patterns were always combined as to not get stuck in a rut: it's all swing. I never know what these terms mean, every scene has a different name. Heck, I was practicing a routine with someone in my own scene last week and we had to redefine every move because we learned all the same stuff with different names :)
Sammy: that pulse is SOOO important especially for beginners (but I love it too for shizzle!). I'm sure you're talking about the pulse coming from your center and not bouncing your hand up and down but when that pulse is present it rocks!
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
Originally posted Tuesday, January 10, 2006 (6 years ago)
To the OP; I agree with many of the things posted but wanted to add a pretty specific idea. With newbie followers, use two hand holds much more often than with an experience follow.
Originally posted Tuesday, January 10, 2006 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "air" Heck, I was practicing a routine with someone in my own scene last week and we had to redefine every move because we learned all the same stuff with different names :)
Learning different styles can teach you the synonyms for the same moves. I've heard "Lindy Circle" used as "Swingout", West coast swingers basically use "Whip" for the same pattern. In Shag, its the "Pivot" step. While they look different in each style, its basically the same pattern.
There is: Sugar Push vs Push Break, Carolina Shag "Boogie walks" are Shorty George. Lindy Boogie walks are something else. In some areas, some moves get renamed after the dancer who did it as a signature move because the folks in that area didn't know what that same move is called elsewhere.
Originally posted Tuesday, January 10, 2006 (6 years ago)
You know what I love?
Dancing with someone who's out on her first night. She's taken the introductory lesson for half an hour, and learned a side-step side-step rock-step, and that's exactly what she's going to do no matter what I have to say about it.
Originally posted Tuesday, January 10, 2006 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "MCQ & CHRIS" To the OP; I agree with many of the things posted but wanted to add a pretty specific idea. With newbie followers, use two hand holds much more often than with an experience follow.
Oh yeah, good advice. You can lead a lot more effectively this way.
Also repeating patterns longer than usual. I can get almost anyone to do side-to-side charlestons if I do it a few times so that they get the movement and the body positioning. I mean, don't do it FOREVER. If they aren't getting it, they aren't getting it.
Originally posted Tuesday, January 10, 2006 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "Poke Alex" You know what I love?
Dancing with someone who's out on her first night. She's taken the introductory lesson for half an hour, and learned a side-step side-step rock-step, and that's exactly what she's going to do no matter what I have to say about it.
God bless the introductory lesson.
If you are side by side and close and you just walk forward there is no way she can rock step.
Originally posted Tuesday, January 10, 2006 (6 years ago)
Yeah..I truthfully loathe the campy two hand hold. If she doesn't have frame you really can't do anything there. If my hand's on her back she will really feel me moving foward and the pulse IMO.
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
Originally posted Tuesday, January 10, 2006 (6 years ago)
Quoted from "Slick Rik" I've had the same experience as you, where I have barely been able to lead someone in step-step-rockstep, and her next partner she is swinging out like a natural.
I'm a relative newbie to swing dancing/partner dancing in general, who is returning after a long break. Step-step-rockstep is harder for me to follow than multiple turns with changes of direction and other fancier stuff. I guess I start over-anticipating or something, and it's hard to stay a smidge behind the beat and actually follow. When the dancing is faster and involves more momentum, I can feel where the lead is putting my weight better. I'm more relaxed, it's a lot more fun, and we're on the same wavelength. I've gone out swingdancing three times, and blues dancing once, in the last couple of weeks, and it's been a consistant pattern no matter how good the lead is.
Quoted from "annabanana" Some do fine and just lead the basic and maybe a turn but some have a really hard time with figuring out the pattern. I find myself wanting to "help" them find where the rock step goes by backleading a bit.
I figure that it doesn't really matter if they don't rockstep where they're supposed to, since they are the one who is leading. If I follow what they do, they'll figure out what they're telling me to do. If they're about to cause a collision, I'll use my weight shift to avoid it, and give them a quick heads-up in that direction.
Originally posted Tuesday, January 10, 2006 (6 years ago)
I loved dancing with newbie leads...until they started hurting me. That said, I still will dance with newbie leads - until they hurt me or invade my dance space excessively.
Newbie leads, to avoid hurting your follow:
1: don't yank
2: flat hand on her back
3: don't lead her in an underarm turn by her wrist
4: if you suddenly feel more resistance, stop pulling
Originally posted Tuesday, January 10, 2006 (6 years ago)
When I was starting out and i went to turn i didn't necesarilly make it all the way arround in the timing, lol and if the lead stood there and waited for me to rock step before we did anything it would throw us off.
So I would say One Very simple and helpful thing to the follow is for the lead to PHYsically DO "step, step, rockstep" instead of just pulsing or for god sakes standing and waiting. It emphasises the weight shift and comming out of the turn it reminds the follow "where" you are in the basic and she can join in.
I can't tell you HOW many times as a follow i came out of a turn to dead nothing and we were like waiting on each other-- him for me to rockstep and me for him to do??? b/c as a follow I had no idea what was going on if he was doing nothing.
Do not swing hands in the "step, step, rockstep" directions as it is very very confusing as a follow as well as annoying/unhelpful. Body pulsing and stepping Is helpful. I have seen beginer leads do this to try to "help" follow and it is so confusing and nauseating as a follow.
Another underestimated but Universally Helful thing is for the lead to SMILE. Really, even if it sucks, dig deep -- and smile. It relaxes both of you and is really really nice. It makes follow less nervous and able to relax and follow better.
Listen to what she is "saying" or "not saying". If she is smiling and having a good time but completely off rhythm and not exactly doing what you are leading, don't worry about moves/etc. just go with it. If she is not following anything you are leading, SIMPLIFY it for her so that you can dance together, it's not worth it to crank her-- for you or for her. If she is looking nervous, weird, paranoid, mad-- SMILE at her and simplify your movement to match what she is comfortable with....and then compliment her on it once she does "get" it to point out what is good to reinforce it and build her confidence.
Positive reinforcement really does work. Find SOMEthing that you liked, even if it was a fluke and point it out as a compliment and so she knows what you are looking for [ex: "wow, that turn really worked because your arm had some frame i could really work with to turn you without hurting you, I like that."/ etc.]
Originally posted Tuesday, January 10, 2006 (6 years ago)
oooh, another thing i just thought of is grounding.
There is this one lead that I have danced with and from the very begining to now after the dance i feel like the best dacner in the world, lol. It's really funny b/c each time I'm like "Man!, that was awesome but hnm i see now that I sucked before!"..............repeat every 6 months for 7 years. LOL
One thing about him though is he is SO grounded.
Durring a turn or a dip or ANything I never felt off in space-- Always "with" him. I think he did this by keeping me near his or the center of ballance [not letting me get too far away] and grounding himself. I don't necesarilly mean close to the ground itself b/c he is a fairly tall guy but just solidly planted and aware of my weight shifting. And his leads are Clear.
Crystal.
Clear.
But not foreceful-- more like and absense of extra "noise" movement. No excess movement of any kind to compete with or get confused which is really what you want as a beging follow. Being a begining follow is really hard because
a. You don't get to do "what you want"/give up active control
b. You think you have to be a mind reader
c. You feel like the lead is mad at you for messing up, especially if they Never SMILE at you!!
Eventhough you know they are "concentrating" all you see is no smile so you assume they are upset with you in some way. And since you have no "active" control you feel like you can't "fix" the problem to make them happy. So yeah, Always just Smile. Really.
Follows like it the Most, at any level, I promise. :wink:
Dancing with complete newbies
I took my first 6-count class last summer and have pretty much been continually taking classes since. I still consider myself a newbie, but not a complete newbie.
This Friday, Georgia Tech is hosting their monthly dance which is usually the largest social swing event every month. It's always fun with great live bands and lots of dancers. The floor varies from month to month but I've never had a problem with it. A lot of the dancers are students and for many of them, the only instruction they've had is a couple (or less) of the free 1-hour pre-dance lessons.
OK, now on to my real question. Two of them, really. First, how can I better lead the complete newbies. On several occasions, I've been dancing with a follow and really struggling to communicate with her. I'll try to lead something and her frame will completely collapse. She'll turn the wrong way, then back the other way, then eventually stop facing away from me. (Not every time...just an example.)
At first I thought, "man, these chicks suck!" But then I'd look up and see a good lead leading the hell out of the very same follow and they'd both be having a great time. So there must be some way to get better connection with the noodle arms. Does anyone have any tips to offer? Should I stiffen my frame to try and lead with my center more or go with the flow and be "noodly", as well? Over-exagerate my leads? Anything? (I'll admit this sometimes happens with great follows, too, but in those cases, I usually already know I've given an ambiguous lead and I'm completely to blame.)
Second, often times the good leads will be leading swingouts and I KNOW these follows don't know how to lindy. This probably explains why the follow's expressions often range from surprise to deer-in-the-headlights to abject terror. I don't mind surprising a follow and when I manage to do it, I usually get a nice smile. But I don't want to scare anyone.
In the past, whenever I'm social dancing, I usually ask the follow if she knows lindy. If not, then I don't lead swingouts. Is that the unneccessary? Is it OK to just lead a couple of swingouts and see how the follow keeps up?
Thanks!
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Great question. I understand your confusion and I think many of us went though the same thing.
The thing about really good follows, is they have enough experience to follow even if the leader is not as clear.
There is nothing in particular I can suggest other than to say as you become a better lead, your lead will become much clearer. You will learn to guide beginner follows better through moves, and fake it better.
When I was a beginner lead, there was a beginner follow whom I just couldn't dance with. It was like we were listening to two totally different songs. I'd watch her dance with all these other leads, and she looked fine. I was dancing with plenty of other follows and doing just fine. But we just couldn't dance together.
We were friendly, so we felt obligated to dance with each other. After each dance we walked away from each other like we had a one night stand of really bad sex. We would generally avoid dancing with each other unless it would have ben awkward not to.
A couple of years go by. We were both on the dance floor, song ends with our current partner, and we turn and see each other. We looked at each other and figured it had been awhile since we tortured each other. I was a little bummed, because I was really having a good night of dancing.
We had a really great dance! We looked at each other, smiled and laughed with a little amazement. She said "Remember when we used to really suck!" And from that point forward we never had a problem dancing with each other.
Sometimes your weaknesses as a dancer, combined with the follows weaknesses as a dancer, will just make for a bad combination. The more experience you get, the more you eliminate your weaknesses, the better you get at compensating for the followers weaknesses, the less you are going to run into these types of problems. Be patient with yourself and your follows, it will come.
There's definitely such a thing as "over-leading" a move for a newer dancer.
I've had the same experience as you, where I have barely been able to lead someone in step-step-rockstep, and her next partner she is swinging out like a natural. It can make you feel incompetent.
Remember though that everyone leads slightly differently, and everyone follows differently. It's possible that the other lead is simply leading a swingout / charleston / balboa in the way that the follow learned it.
Don't sweat it too much. You learn over time which moves are easily "translatable" by you to a newer dancer and which ones are best reserved for more experienced follows. I also lead moves with newer dancers that I don't do with intermediate dancers because they usually have a harder time following it after learning to do the move a certain way. Sometimes a little knowledge gets in the way of just following.
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Rik raises a good point, that I didn't quite know how to deal with in my post. I didn't say, "be more clear in your leading," because many beginners will sometimes translate that to muscling a follow through the moves. Clarity will generally come through experience.
There are much better leads than I on this board who may be able to explain how to work on clarity. For me, it wasn't a conscious thing. It just happened.
Using more force is usually not the answer, IMHO. Instead, you need to think a bit like an Akido master, and use the follow's own momentum and timing against her, trip her, get her down on the floor in a wrist lock, and take her wallet... Er, perhaps I went too far with that metaphor.
No, the key is sensing her timing and balance, and being able to use minimal force to move her by adjusting your own timing accordingly. For example, if someone was just say, walking forward normally, it'd take less force to push them off to the left or right if you timed your push exactly at the moment only one foot was on the ground and they were beginning to fall into the next step (ie, when they were least grounded). If your push occurred when both feet were planted, it'd probably be more difficult. Similarly, if someone is moving forward, you can easly push them in the same direction they were going, but it's much harder to reverse their direction and push them the other way.
So, in a dance context, I'll often lead a barrell roll with complete newbies who I know have never seen it, but to make it work, I have to find a point in time where she's already moving forward (perhaps even a bit off balance) and it's almost as if she falls where I want her. In fact, "controlled falling" isn't such a bad metaphor.
Another thing I do with beginners is adjust my own footwork to be in time with theirs, even if they get off time. For example, newbies will often omit a couple of beats of a 6 count basic. I just go with that when it happens, rather than try to force them to stay on track. I think that makes everything feel smoother and less awkward for them. (If they seem to lose the 6 count pattern entirely, then I just go back to closed position for a while to get the rhythm back into their heads.)
If they have total noodle arms, I tend to do more two handed wrap moves. I recommend moving around her a bit more; keep her own speed down so that you don't lose control and/or collide with other couples.
Mostly, I don't try to lead swingouts if they've only had 6-count. I think often they'll get tripped up on the triples, and even if they struggle through it, might not enjoy it that much (varies by case, obviously.) Even if they can handle it they may be like "what was that, did I do that right?" and feel overly self-conscious. I just try to make it fun and keep them relaxed and not worrying about whether they're doing it "right." It always annoys me to see guys cranking follows through 17,000 different variations/spins as she barely holds on.
I have been dancing for less then a year so my complete newbie days are still fresh in my mind.
After my very first jitterbug lesson, and before knowing any Lindy at all, I had an opportunity to dance with a lead who made me feel as though I already knew how to dance. He employed a lot of closed position moves. Moves where he had good control over where I was placed. He also let me know verbally what was coming up.. AND counted out the steps. At the beginning of the song I was a bit confused by the stuff he was saying but by the end of the song AND the other dances we had that night I felt very confident and in control - especially when he 'called out' a move he had already done with me. I remembered how it went and was able to 'follow it' better.
My frame/connection, frankly, sucked big time until I had a few private lessons where we concentrated only on those items. I have no idea how I followed ANYTHING anyone tried to lead until I had a better understanding of frame/connection. I think that I tried to follow visually (if that makes any sense).
Incidentally - I still have awesome dances with the lead noted above. He just doesn't have to count and give me the 'play by play' anymore.
Hope this helped.
Definately go for small steps, keep her close by watching your frame, and keep your moves controlled and gentle (but never noodly or jerky). I like to compare leading to steering a car-there's no beginning or end while the car is moving, and there certainly is follow-through and constant contact points!
Listen to your follow's body language, look at her eyes, and feel free to get off beat for a while, during turns, etc. It is all about having SAFE fun.
One Peter Flahiff, master of the clear lead, told me once that the clear lead wasn't a heavy lead, merely a direct one. Follows at first think like detectives, "what is he leading me in?" You want to make your lead so direct, so singular, so obvious, so lacking in any distracting movements or other possible miscommunications that she has absolutely no reason not to follow you that way.
You can't push on a noodle but you can pull. Use moves that require a follow to go forward.
A sidepass is an example of such a move. It works if even if the follow has noodle arms. A locked whip should also work just fine with noodle arms.
Avoid moves like sugar pushes, tuck turns which require the follow to have some knowledge/understanding of a frame.
Salsa moves are useful to know in such as a context as many of them use leads where the follows are pulled in.
I disagree about tuck turns. I can lead almost any newbie in a tuck turn without having to make it painful. Sugar pushes are rough though.
In a similar vein, how about dancing with new leads?
I'm in a scene that is growing a lot so I end up dancing with several brand new leads every week. Some do fine and just lead the basic and maybe a turn but some have a really hard time with figuring out the pattern. I find myself wanting to "help" them find where the rock step goes by backleading a bit.
What is everyone's opinion on this?
I haven't been dancing for a long time, just past a year and a handful of months, but I had an interesting experience last week that I shared with a friend of mine. I was dancing with a lead who'd been taking lessons just at around 2 months and for the first portion of the dance things were rocky. We were really off the music and I was doing my best to follow and having a heck of a time doing so.
I decided to try something that a friend and a handful of teachers have recently started explaining to me 'pulsing' to see what would happen, if anything. I overexaggerated a continuous pulse, that was more visually obvious than I'm used to feeling from someone, and suddenly we managed to be on with the music, and did the second half of the dance without awkward problems as with the first 1/3.
Not sure if that's happened/worked for anybody else, but it surely surprised me for that brief moment.
IMO, backleading is not a good thing ... smiling and trying to make the lead more relaxed is crucial! If you're totally off the beat, you can always say "you know, I'm completely offbeat, can we start again" and see if that helps. If the lead asks you for suggestions in a particular area, you could probably make one or two, but I think it's always a good idea to leave instructing to the instructors.
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Wow! There's a lot of great stuff, here. Thanks for the tips. Haha, at the last dance, a buddy and I were warning each other about who the "noodles" were. Now I'm actually looking forward to dancing with some. It makes sense that almost anyone can lead a good follow.
I'm definitely going to review this thread before heading to the dance. I might even print out a "cheat sheet" of some of the better tips so I can refresh them in my mind during the dance.
Thanks, again!
You never have to make it painful. Your partner is always more important than the move you're trying to lead. Best thing to do is try something and see what kind of move works and what kind doesn't.
I've heard follows complain of sore soulders from being manhandled. One lady from a Carolina shag class I took showed us a bruise she had on her hand because shaggers often hold the hand by pressing the thumb down on the back side of the hand.
Make sure it's a short song and smile. ;)
Wexie and Rik make some excellent suggestions. I agree with Phlurg's too, although I think it's somewhat of an advanced concept, and if you don't get it just yet, file it away for future reference. Mostly, I think you should just keep dancing and practice. Make sure to dance with as many different follows as you can, and try them all again for different songs and on different nights.
If you're there for the introductory lesson, I'd try to work some of those moves in during the night but not in the order they were taught. For instance, the instructors might teach in 6-count an outside turn for the woman followed by an inside turn. If you can separate those during the song, the follow should be able to follow your lead and not have to think too much about where to put her feet. (Someone else may be able to think of a better example.) It is still tricky though with the noodle arms.
Also, I think body leads are a fabulous thing. It's your way of committing to a move so I don't have to think about what it was that you wanted me to do. They're crucial for some of the more subtle steps too by the way. I took privates for a while and my session would overlap for a few minutes with the guy taking a lesson after me. He never understood the body lead thing, and it was very tedious dancing with him.
And lastly, I don't think trying to just lead someone into a swing out is a good idea. Learning lindy can be a bit "high pressure" because it looks so much harder than 6-count. Also, it's hard to do any following visually with the swing out since the lead's steps are not mirror images of the follow's steps. A beginning follow has probably used visual cues like this without even realizing it, so it's hard to ask her to give that up until she's had more practice.
And Anna, I hear you about dancing with the new leads. While it can be a very uncomfortable 3 minutes, it's best to wait until they ask for help before offering.
If it's really, desperately bad, there's always the strategy of "Do you mind if I count, it helps me...ONE!"
Of puns it has been said that those who most dislike them are those who are least able to utter them. Edgar Allan Poe
What's lindy? What's East Coast? When I get asked this by someone I've never danced with I'll usually play dumb and ask them what is 'lindy' or 'East Coast' or 'Jitterbug.' I was never taught a difference - my six and eight count patterns were always combined as to not get stuck in a rut: it's all swing. I never know what these terms mean, every scene has a different name. Heck, I was practicing a routine with someone in my own scene last week and we had to redefine every move because we learned all the same stuff with different names :)
Sammy: that pulse is SOOO important especially for beginners (but I love it too for shizzle!). I'm sure you're talking about the pulse coming from your center and not bouncing your hand up and down but when that pulse is present it rocks!
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
To the OP; I agree with many of the things posted but wanted to add a pretty specific idea. With newbie followers, use two hand holds much more often than with an experience follow.
Learning different styles can teach you the synonyms for the same moves. I've heard "Lindy Circle" used as "Swingout", West coast swingers basically use "Whip" for the same pattern. In Shag, its the "Pivot" step. While they look different in each style, its basically the same pattern.
There is: Sugar Push vs Push Break, Carolina Shag "Boogie walks" are Shorty George. Lindy Boogie walks are something else. In some areas, some moves get renamed after the dancer who did it as a signature move because the folks in that area didn't know what that same move is called elsewhere.
You know what I love?
Dancing with someone who's out on her first night. She's taken the introductory lesson for half an hour, and learned a side-step side-step rock-step, and that's exactly what she's going to do no matter what I have to say about it.
God bless the introductory lesson.
"Chaw, chi-chaw, chi-chaw." - Lindsay Bluth
I thought this was going to be a thread about a spinoff series to Dancing With The Stars.
Oh yeah, good advice. You can lead a lot more effectively this way.
Also repeating patterns longer than usual. I can get almost anyone to do side-to-side charlestons if I do it a few times so that they get the movement and the body positioning. I mean, don't do it FOREVER. If they aren't getting it, they aren't getting it.
Awesome Dance Movies • Teaching Teens to Charleston is Awesome
If you are side by side and close and you just walk forward there is no way she can rock step.
Yeah..I truthfully loathe the campy two hand hold. If she doesn't have frame you really can't do anything there. If my hand's on her back she will really feel me moving foward and the pulse IMO.
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
I'm a relative newbie to swing dancing/partner dancing in general, who is returning after a long break. Step-step-rockstep is harder for me to follow than multiple turns with changes of direction and other fancier stuff. I guess I start over-anticipating or something, and it's hard to stay a smidge behind the beat and actually follow. When the dancing is faster and involves more momentum, I can feel where the lead is putting my weight better. I'm more relaxed, it's a lot more fun, and we're on the same wavelength. I've gone out swingdancing three times, and blues dancing once, in the last couple of weeks, and it's been a consistant pattern no matter how good the lead is.
I figure that it doesn't really matter if they don't rockstep where they're supposed to, since they are the one who is leading. If I follow what they do, they'll figure out what they're telling me to do. If they're about to cause a collision, I'll use my weight shift to avoid it, and give them a quick heads-up in that direction.
I loved dancing with newbie leads...until they started hurting me. That said, I still will dance with newbie leads - until they hurt me or invade my dance space excessively.
Newbie leads, to avoid hurting your follow: 1: don't yank 2: flat hand on her back 3: don't lead her in an underarm turn by her wrist 4: if you suddenly feel more resistance, stop pulling
When I was starting out and i went to turn i didn't necesarilly make it all the way arround in the timing, lol and if the lead stood there and waited for me to rock step before we did anything it would throw us off.
So I would say One Very simple and helpful thing to the follow is for the lead to PHYsically DO "step, step, rockstep" instead of just pulsing or for god sakes standing and waiting. It emphasises the weight shift and comming out of the turn it reminds the follow "where" you are in the basic and she can join in. I can't tell you HOW many times as a follow i came out of a turn to dead nothing and we were like waiting on each other-- him for me to rockstep and me for him to do??? b/c as a follow I had no idea what was going on if he was doing nothing. Do not swing hands in the "step, step, rockstep" directions as it is very very confusing as a follow as well as annoying/unhelpful. Body pulsing and stepping Is helpful. I have seen beginer leads do this to try to "help" follow and it is so confusing and nauseating as a follow.
Another underestimated but Universally Helful thing is for the lead to SMILE. Really, even if it sucks, dig deep -- and smile. It relaxes both of you and is really really nice. It makes follow less nervous and able to relax and follow better.
Listen to what she is "saying" or "not saying". If she is smiling and having a good time but completely off rhythm and not exactly doing what you are leading, don't worry about moves/etc. just go with it. If she is not following anything you are leading, SIMPLIFY it for her so that you can dance together, it's not worth it to crank her-- for you or for her. If she is looking nervous, weird, paranoid, mad-- SMILE at her and simplify your movement to match what she is comfortable with....and then compliment her on it once she does "get" it to point out what is good to reinforce it and build her confidence. Positive reinforcement really does work. Find SOMEthing that you liked, even if it was a fluke and point it out as a compliment and so she knows what you are looking for [ex: "wow, that turn really worked because your arm had some frame i could really work with to turn you without hurting you, I like that."/ etc.]
Hope that's helpful! Good luck! :)
oooh, another thing i just thought of is grounding. There is this one lead that I have danced with and from the very begining to now after the dance i feel like the best dacner in the world, lol. It's really funny b/c each time I'm like "Man!, that was awesome but hnm i see now that I sucked before!"..............repeat every 6 months for 7 years. LOL
One thing about him though is he is SO grounded. Durring a turn or a dip or ANything I never felt off in space-- Always "with" him. I think he did this by keeping me near his or the center of ballance [not letting me get too far away] and grounding himself. I don't necesarilly mean close to the ground itself b/c he is a fairly tall guy but just solidly planted and aware of my weight shifting. And his leads are Clear. Crystal. Clear. But not foreceful-- more like and absense of extra "noise" movement. No excess movement of any kind to compete with or get confused which is really what you want as a beging follow. Being a begining follow is really hard because a. You don't get to do "what you want"/give up active control b. You think you have to be a mind reader c. You feel like the lead is mad at you for messing up, especially if they Never SMILE at you!!
Eventhough you know they are "concentrating" all you see is no smile so you assume they are upset with you in some way. And since you have no "active" control you feel like you can't "fix" the problem to make them happy. So yeah, Always just Smile. Really. Follows like it the Most, at any level, I promise. :wink:
Impossibility doesn't stop some people.
(Hey, I'm off-topic!)
"Chaw, chi-chaw, chi-chaw." - Lindsay Bluth
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