There are so many events for girls/follows, e.g. US Girl Jam, CA Girl Jam, Midwest Girl Jam, and Southern Belle Swing Bash ......., etc.
And, I seldom see event(s) especially focus on guys/leads. How come???Just curious.
Maybe there are some events like that, and I just do not know them.
Originally posted Friday, August 25, 2006 (5 years ago)
Really, nearly every workshop that isn't a Girl Jam is highly leader-centric. I think the Girl Jams are brilliant and fill a gigantic, gaping hole in what's offered to the Lindy Hop community.
Originally posted Friday, August 25, 2006 (5 years ago)
Quoted from "Yuwen" There are so many events for girls/follows, e.g. US Girl Jam, CA Girl Jam, Midwest Girl Jam, and Southern Belle Swing Bash ......., etc.
And, I seldom see event(s) especially focus on guys/leads. How come???Just curious.
Maybe there are some events like that, and I just do not know them.
Originally posted Friday, August 25, 2006 (5 years ago)
Quoted from "Swifty" Really, nearly every workshop that isn't a Girl Jam is highly leader-centric. I think the Girl Jams are brilliant and fill a gigantic, gaping hole in what's offered to the Lindy Hop community.
Exactly, if you think about almost any other event othe than a girl jam, most of what is taught is moves, so the teachers have to spend the majority of the time teaching the guys what to do.
Originally posted Friday, August 25, 2006 (5 years ago)
Quoted from "Swifty" Really, nearly every workshop that isn't a Girl Jam is highly leader-centric. I think the Girl Jams are brilliant and fill a gigantic, gaping hole in what's offered to the Lindy Hop community.
Originally posted Friday, August 25, 2006 (5 years ago)
Quoted from "Swifty" Really, nearly every workshop that isn't a Girl Jam is highly leader-centric. I think the Girl Jams are brilliant and fill a gigantic, gaping hole in what's offered to the Lindy Hop community.
True just not enough guys and this gives women a chance to lead. Guy-guy jams might make for interesting aerials...
Originally posted Friday, August 25, 2006 (5 years ago)
One of the problems with events catering to only one gender is getting the other gender to be involved. At California Girl Jam last year, the biggest complaint was that there weren't nearly enough leads for the girls to work their stuff.
But I'll be attending the event again this year, because guys get in free and there'll be a few things that people of any gender can learn.
As for why there's no guy jam, a lot of what everyone said above is true, but also the bulk of dudes who take workshops (at least from my observation) are not as interested in their own personal style as they are in learning a bunch of new moves. Most workshops provide the "new moves" that these students seek.
Originally posted Friday, August 25, 2006 (5 years ago)
Quoted from "equivoque" True just not enough guys and this gives women a chance to lead. Guy-guy jams might make for interesting aerials...
You mean big because average guys are more muscular than average girls or awkward because they'd refuse to touch each other properly to execute the moves?
Originally posted Friday, August 25, 2006 (5 years ago)
Quoted from "kitkat"
Quoted from "equivoque" True just not enough guys and this gives women a chance to lead. Guy-guy jams might make for interesting aerials...
You mean big because average guys are more muscular than average girls or awkward because they'd refuse to touch each other properly to execute the moves?
Interesting thought. . . I would venture to say that more muscles would make more interesting aerieals/moves. I've seen guys pull off some amazing aerials together.
As far as guys not comfortable touching each other, I don't know. I'm sure some could take issue with it. However I've been dancing a long time, and have never come across a guy who had a problem with it. . .
Originally posted Friday, August 25, 2006 (5 years ago)
Quoted from "kitkat"
Quoted from "equivoque" True just not enough guys and this gives women a chance to lead. Guy-guy jams might make for interesting aerials...
You mean big because average guys are more muscular than average girls or awkward because they'd refuse to touch each other properly to execute the moves?
Give my guy friends another chance to play with stupid human tricks, and they'll put their hands anywhere. I've seen leads crawling all over each other trying to do aerials they've just learned; I doubt touching each other would be that much of a problem for most of them.
Originally posted Friday, August 25, 2006 (5 years ago)
I'd just like to support the suggestion that most current workshops are lead dominant, thereby not creating a need for leader centric anything. The Girl Jams are in response to followers often being left wanting from almost everything they attend.
But if you think people want a guy jam, I support the suggestion that you throw one.
Originally posted Friday, August 25, 2006 (5 years ago)
Actually, what I'd like to see is an event that focused on guys learning to follow. I know that where I live, most beginner guys would be mortified to lead another male.
Originally posted Friday, August 25, 2006 (5 years ago)
Quoted from "Keither" Actually, what I'd like to see is an event that focused on guys learning to follow. I know that where I live, most beginner guys would be mortified to lead another male.
Even though I posted earlier that I haven't had a problem, I completely agree with Keither. The beginner guys around here wouldn't be cool with that.
I think it depends a lot on how long someone has been dancing. The more someone dances, the more that person has to realize that dancing is not completely sexual. I hesitate to use the term "sexual" but a lot of the guys that come to the dances here are either with a date, or looking for a date.
I would love an event that encourages guys to follow. I've been trying to learn and improve for years and I can really tell that it has helped me. It also provides me an outlet to do swivels, which I enjoy entirely way too much.
Originally posted Friday, August 25, 2006 (5 years ago)
When I read Giselle s Philosophy of the CA Girl Jam on Myspace, my first reaction was Guys need this, don t they?!
Monday, August 14, 2006 Philosophy
"We see Girl Jam as a celebration of women. It's an opportunity for women to inspire one another in a supportive, collective way and take this inspiration to the dance floor. It's a chance to take what has been "hiding" and let it shine. We emphasize individuality and we hope that follows can bring these concepts to their partnered dance to both continue and enliven it."
Giselle Anguizola, California Girl Jam Founder
As a counterpart to her philosophy, here is my idea:
We see Guy Jam as an accomplishment of men. It s an opportunity for men (all the leads) to inspire each other in a supportive, collective way and take this inspiration to the dance floor. It s also a great chance to take what has been HELD INSIDE and let it BE EXPRESSED HONESTLY WITH MUSIC. We emphasize individuality and we hope that leads can bring these concepts to their partnered dances to both continue and enliven it ..
Just a thought, anyway.
At the end of my beginners class, the instructor said: Now, we should send all the guys off to an island to practice the rock steps by themselves for a year, so they can catch up with the girls How come we re sending the girls off for more practice when it is the guys that need it?
Originally posted Friday, August 25, 2006 (5 years ago)
Also, a lot of lead moves are MEANT for girls. I've been racked enough times dancing with guys to learn this the hard way. While the girls can learn how to lead in a camp... I envision a camp of guys trying to learn to follow can easily turn into a ball-kicking fest. :lol:
Originally posted Friday, August 25, 2006 (5 years ago)
Quoted from "kitkat"
Quoted from "equivoque" True just not enough guys and this gives women a chance to lead. Guy-guy jams might make for interesting aerials...
You mean big because average guys are more muscular than average girls or awkward because they'd refuse to touch each other properly to execute the moves?
It has been quite some time since I took an aerials class. Strength helps but you do not need to muscle it. What you gain strength you might lose do to the extra weight with two guys. I did the lamp post (fog) a few times with guys in class but I could only do the lead's part. The dive through or the nose might be sort of odd with two men.
Not better-not worse just interesting...
Most guys wouldn't be afraid to touch each other-well, not most men who dance.
Originally posted Friday, August 25, 2006 (5 years ago)
I'm wondering why the need for this "guy power" stuff. As a guy, you're leading, therefore, you're dictating what happens ... maybe 51/49, but the guy's still in control. Giving gals the focus in an event allows them to fully focus what they can do in that 49 without guys setting an agenda.
As for what guys could get out of fully exploring that 51 , I think shrug as a lead, we are already given license to fully explore that 51 . What are we hiding in that 51 that we aren't letting shine (that isn't already covered in many other workshops)?
Originally posted Friday, August 25, 2006 (5 years ago)
I'd just like to stop and say THANK YOU to all of the guys who've posted in this thread supporting the all-girl weekends. It's really nice to know that the leaders out there understand the motivation for these events and are supportive of them.
At last year's Southern Belle Swing Bash, we had maybe a dozen followers without a partner during the rotation (out of maybe 50 total ladies). So, 75 of them having leaders was a pretty good number, if you ask me. I hope that we'll be able to keep up that kind of percentage this year. It's been awesome to see the guys coming out to support the event and the follows who are attending it.
Originally posted Friday, August 25, 2006 (5 years ago)
Quoted from "Yuwen" As a counterpart to her philosophy, here is my idea:
We see Guy Jam as an accomplishment of men. It s an opportunity for men (all the leads) to inspire each other in a supportive, collective way and take this inspiration to the dance floor. It s also a great chance to take what has been HELD INSIDE and let it BE EXPRESSED HONESTLY WITH MUSIC. We emphasize individuality and we hope that leads can bring these concepts to their partnered dances to both continue and enliven it ..
NOT suitable for work. Or the faint of heart (you've been warned).
As for the topic at hand, maybe the reason for not having an "all guy" jam has something to do with the fact that the only two people who seem to have responded positively to the idea are a teacher who's engaged and well... Mr. Wonderful. (not that there's anything wrong with that ;) )
Am I making a generalization? You becha. Is it justified? I'm reasonably sure of it. There might be SOME interest, but I doubt enough that you could plan a whole event around it.
Originally posted Saturday, August 26, 2006 (5 years ago)
I think a part of it is that most guys start out as leads. Leads are told to focus on leading, instead of their own styling, and let follows shine instead, especially at the beginning. For example, in classes and workshops, some instructors emphasize that "make your follow look good, then you look good." (I think it is true, though)
So until you become comfortable with leading, you aren't encouraged to show your individuality and your own style, as much as polishing your lead skill. (however, I think you can show your idea/style by what and how you lead your follow)
Once you are interested in your own style, you are advanced enough, you can work on it yourself, by coming up by yourself, or steal from what other people are doing. Also, there are so many advanced workshops, that focus on style variation for both leads and follows, posture and line, etc.
So I don't think there is not enough niche for a "Guy Jam". :-?
In additon, will there be enough follows showing up for such workshops? Follows are already tired of waiting for leads to learn stuff at regular workshops... :dunno:
Originally posted Saturday, August 26, 2006 (5 years ago)
Okay, this whole "organize the event yourself thing" bugs me. People should be allowed their curiosity without needing to commit time and money, organization and effort that an event would take. This is a discussion forum. Saying "organize the event yourself" is a lot like saying "put up or shut up" or really mostly "shut up."
The market for such guy-styling event is questionable at best. Asking the question of why there aren't such events is a helpful motion towards encouraging ideas. Why aren't there guy jams? Because you might not be able to get the couple hundred guys to sign up for an event with only a few women. It's the awful truth.
Many of the students at the CA Girl Jam last year were frustrated because they couldn't put their knowledge into context very efficiently without boys. Line dances can be learned independently, but the placement of weight during a whip is probably impossible to comprehend without a lead.
Most leads, from my observations, are not trying to get past their bad habits. Rather they are more interested in learning new variations in turns, swingouts, etc. I feel that the easiest remedy to this is for instructors (in some unorganized fashion) to teach their students to understand fundamentals, while encouraging them to break past having a list of moves.
If enough teachers engage their male students to dance more expressively a Guy Jam could be only around the corner.
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How come no Guy Jam(s)???
There are so many events for girls/follows, e.g. US Girl Jam, CA Girl Jam, Midwest Girl Jam, and Southern Belle Swing Bash ......., etc. And, I seldom see event(s) especially focus on guys/leads. How come???Just curious.
Maybe there are some events like that, and I just do not know them.
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Because nobody's organized one yet.
Possibly because there's no demand for one.
I DEMAND an all guy jam!!!!!!!
:wink:
Really, nearly every workshop that isn't a Girl Jam is highly leader-centric. I think the Girl Jams are brilliant and fill a gigantic, gaping hole in what's offered to the Lindy Hop community.
Moving to swing talk forum...
Why It Took Me 13 Years to Learn the Big Apple • My hiphop crew Freeplay performing at the Dance-a-Rama (video).
Because they are so 1990s.
Exactly, if you think about almost any other event othe than a girl jam, most of what is taught is moves, so the teachers have to spend the majority of the time teaching the guys what to do.
Its all about Girl power....
And echos of other statements; most workshops focus on the lead to move the follow.
For the same reason there's no WET.
Who'd want to go to an all guy jam anyway? :-?
um, interesting choice of words.
What are you, twelve?
True just not enough guys and this gives women a chance to lead. Guy-guy jams might make for interesting aerials...
One of the problems with events catering to only one gender is getting the other gender to be involved. At California Girl Jam last year, the biggest complaint was that there weren't nearly enough leads for the girls to work their stuff.
But I'll be attending the event again this year, because guys get in free and there'll be a few things that people of any gender can learn.
As for why there's no guy jam, a lot of what everyone said above is true, but also the bulk of dudes who take workshops (at least from my observation) are not as interested in their own personal style as they are in learning a bunch of new moves. Most workshops provide the "new moves" that these students seek.
You mean big because average guys are more muscular than average girls or awkward because they'd refuse to touch each other properly to execute the moves?
Interesting thought. . . I would venture to say that more muscles would make more interesting aerieals/moves. I've seen guys pull off some amazing aerials together.
As far as guys not comfortable touching each other, I don't know. I'm sure some could take issue with it. However I've been dancing a long time, and have never come across a guy who had a problem with it. . .
Give my guy friends another chance to play with stupid human tricks, and they'll put their hands anywhere. I've seen leads crawling all over each other trying to do aerials they've just learned; I doubt touching each other would be that much of a problem for most of them.
I'd just like to support the suggestion that most current workshops are lead dominant, thereby not creating a need for leader centric anything. The Girl Jams are in response to followers often being left wanting from almost everything they attend.
But if you think people want a guy jam, I support the suggestion that you throw one.
Actually, what I'd like to see is an event that focused on guys learning to follow. I know that where I live, most beginner guys would be mortified to lead another male.
Even though I posted earlier that I haven't had a problem, I completely agree with Keither. The beginner guys around here wouldn't be cool with that.
I think it depends a lot on how long someone has been dancing. The more someone dances, the more that person has to realize that dancing is not completely sexual. I hesitate to use the term "sexual" but a lot of the guys that come to the dances here are either with a date, or looking for a date.
I would love an event that encourages guys to follow. I've been trying to learn and improve for years and I can really tell that it has helped me. It also provides me an outlet to do swivels, which I enjoy entirely way too much.
When I read Giselle s Philosophy of the CA Girl Jam on Myspace, my first reaction was Guys need this, don t they?!
Monday, August 14, 2006 Philosophy "We see Girl Jam as a celebration of women. It's an opportunity for women to inspire one another in a supportive, collective way and take this inspiration to the dance floor. It's a chance to take what has been "hiding" and let it shine. We emphasize individuality and we hope that follows can bring these concepts to their partnered dance to both continue and enliven it."
Giselle Anguizola, California Girl Jam Founder
As a counterpart to her philosophy, here is my idea:
We see Guy Jam as an accomplishment of men. It s an opportunity for men (all the leads) to inspire each other in a supportive, collective way and take this inspiration to the dance floor. It s also a great chance to take what has been HELD INSIDE and let it BE EXPRESSED HONESTLY WITH MUSIC. We emphasize individuality and we hope that leads can bring these concepts to their partnered dances to both continue and enliven it ..
Just a thought, anyway.
At the end of my beginners class, the instructor said: Now, we should send all the guys off to an island to practice the rock steps by themselves for a year, so they can catch up with the girls How come we re sending the girls off for more practice when it is the guys that need it?
Because guys don't want to touch wands and get into a big fight.
Also, a lot of lead moves are MEANT for girls. I've been racked enough times dancing with guys to learn this the hard way. While the girls can learn how to lead in a camp... I envision a camp of guys trying to learn to follow can easily turn into a ball-kicking fest. :lol:
It has been quite some time since I took an aerials class. Strength helps but you do not need to muscle it. What you gain strength you might lose do to the extra weight with two guys. I did the lamp post (fog) a few times with guys in class but I could only do the lead's part. The dive through or the nose might be sort of odd with two men.
Not better-not worse just interesting...
Most guys wouldn't be afraid to touch each other-well, not most men who dance.
I'm wondering why the need for this "guy power" stuff. As a guy, you're leading, therefore, you're dictating what happens ... maybe 51/49, but the guy's still in control. Giving gals the focus in an event allows them to fully focus what they can do in that 49 without guys setting an agenda.
As for what guys could get out of fully exploring that 51 , I think shrug as a lead, we are already given license to fully explore that 51 . What are we hiding in that 51 that we aren't letting shine (that isn't already covered in many other workshops)?
I'd just like to stop and say THANK YOU to all of the guys who've posted in this thread supporting the all-girl weekends. It's really nice to know that the leaders out there understand the motivation for these events and are supportive of them.
At last year's Southern Belle Swing Bash, we had maybe a dozen followers without a partner during the rotation (out of maybe 50 total ladies). So, 75 of them having leaders was a pretty good number, if you ask me. I hope that we'll be able to keep up that kind of percentage this year. It's been awesome to see the guys coming out to support the event and the follows who are attending it.
http://g4tv.com/attackoftheshow
Roshambo!
NOT suitable for work. Or the faint of heart (you've been warned).
As for the topic at hand, maybe the reason for not having an "all guy" jam has something to do with the fact that the only two people who seem to have responded positively to the idea are a teacher who's engaged and well... Mr. Wonderful. (not that there's anything wrong with that ;) )
Am I making a generalization? You becha. Is it justified? I'm reasonably sure of it. There might be SOME interest, but I doubt enough that you could plan a whole event around it.
Martinis do not contain vodka. —Rachel Maddow
I think a part of it is that most guys start out as leads. Leads are told to focus on leading, instead of their own styling, and let follows shine instead, especially at the beginning. For example, in classes and workshops, some instructors emphasize that "make your follow look good, then you look good." (I think it is true, though)
So until you become comfortable with leading, you aren't encouraged to show your individuality and your own style, as much as polishing your lead skill. (however, I think you can show your idea/style by what and how you lead your follow)
Once you are interested in your own style, you are advanced enough, you can work on it yourself, by coming up by yourself, or steal from what other people are doing. Also, there are so many advanced workshops, that focus on style variation for both leads and follows, posture and line, etc.
So I don't think there is not enough niche for a "Guy Jam". :-?
In additon, will there be enough follows showing up for such workshops? Follows are already tired of waiting for leads to learn stuff at regular workshops... :dunno:
If you think there's a want or need, feel free to organize the event.
Okay, this whole "organize the event yourself thing" bugs me. People should be allowed their curiosity without needing to commit time and money, organization and effort that an event would take. This is a discussion forum. Saying "organize the event yourself" is a lot like saying "put up or shut up" or really mostly "shut up."
The market for such guy-styling event is questionable at best. Asking the question of why there aren't such events is a helpful motion towards encouraging ideas. Why aren't there guy jams? Because you might not be able to get the couple hundred guys to sign up for an event with only a few women. It's the awful truth.
Many of the students at the CA Girl Jam last year were frustrated because they couldn't put their knowledge into context very efficiently without boys. Line dances can be learned independently, but the placement of weight during a whip is probably impossible to comprehend without a lead.
Most leads, from my observations, are not trying to get past their bad habits. Rather they are more interested in learning new variations in turns, swingouts, etc. I feel that the easiest remedy to this is for instructors (in some unorganized fashion) to teach their students to understand fundamentals, while encouraging them to break past having a list of moves.
If enough teachers engage their male students to dance more expressively a Guy Jam could be only around the corner.
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