As there is no verifiable evidence of anyone using the term Lindy Hop to describe a dance before September 1928, it is unlikely that the Snowden's claim that was supposedly made in June of that same year is valid in the way it has been recorded. (And even then it should be remembered that he only gave Marshall Stearns this account in 1959, although he had given other versions of the same story previously to other interviewers.)

Check your copy of Stearns out - in it Snowden doesn't make any reference to a newspaper headline. That association was added on latter.

As for the story of the alleged specific newspaper headline "Lindy Hops The Atlantic" I, and a good many other people have found no evidence for its existence before 1986 when it was invented by Warren Heyes and Ryan Francois of the Jiving Lindy Hoppers as a humerous and entertaining, although not accurate way of informing audiences as to how the dance got its name. Unfortunately in 1987 a british TV company decided to fake a newspaper headline that contained that formulation for a documentary they made about the JLH. That programme has been shown several times on US TV as well as in the UK and elsewhere, and thus no doubt prompted the search.

The intention was innocent enough, but it has caused an awful lot of people to waste an awful lot of time, quite apart from all those dumb swing sites that repeat the story ad nauseam despite there not being a shread of evidence to support it!

But I doubt whether this will put many people off the search, so all I can do is wish all those who persist in trying good luck in their endeavours!!

Apologies Slingshot if my response seemed somewhat abrupt. I wasn't intending to sound dismissive. I'd just returned from an energetic evening spent dancing and wanted to get to sleep!

However I made the effort to respond as it looked like a sensible question to me and worth a response, even if only to forstall one of those whimsical series of comments that some Yehoodi people like to indulge in, but which tell you nothing.

Don't feel bad about not knowing this stuff. The swing scene currently is dominated by "rockstars" who are forbidden by prevailing etiquette to communicate with the "peasants" in swing forums, and on the other hand because hardly anyone is prepared to correct them the world wide network of swing sites carries on recycling each other's misinformation without a care in the world. It's not a good situation! Some of us who were around in the early 1980s can hardly recognise what happened back then in the recent comments and articles supposedly written about how the new interest emerged. Thus you can see how much difficult it is to get the facts of what Snowden was doing in the late 1920s right.

Since the Basie/Snowden Centenary in 2004 and the Savoy 80th last year a number of new initiatives have been launched by people who exist somewhere between the above mentioned two polarities. Some worthwhile projects have been launched while others appear to be going through the motions of replicating work already completed, but overall it is too early in the day to pass judgement. We can only hope their efforts include a way of genuinely linking the old and the new. There are various other important isssues that should also be raised in the way you have posed this one. It is to be hoped that other swing enthusiasts will do likewise. The future of the resurgence of interest in the Lindy Hop depends on it.

That would be good to see. I didn't realize any of the history of the lindy hop name was in question till I saw this thread (terry is the man when it comes to this stuff). I just did a few serches on www.newspaperarchive.com using "lindy hop" and dancing, and found nothing before 1930, first reference is Aug 1930 in The Emporia Weekly Gazette. The sites archive of newspapers seems pretty extensive but they don't have all of the years (ny times they only have from 1857 to 1909 for example).

Emporia Weekly Gazette, The - August 28, 1930, Emporia, Kansas

...the new Negro dance is now becom called the Lindy Hop ...It will probably be the history of the Lindy hop ...The Lindy hop made its first official appearance in Harlem

Date: Thursday, August 28, 1930 City: Emporia State: Kansas

Then I did a serach for headline "Lindy Hops The Atlantic" and nothing came up.

Quoted from "frankyboy"
That would be good to see. I didn't realize any of the history of the lindy hop name was in question till I saw this thread (terry is the man when it comes to this stuff). I just did a few serches on www.newspaperarchive.com using "lindy hop" and dancing, and found nothing before 1930, first reference is Aug 1930 in The Emporia Weekly Gazette. The sites archive of newspapers seems pretty extensive but they don't have all of the years (ny times they only have from 1857 to 1909 for example). Emporia Weekly Gazette, The - August 28, 1930, Emporia, Kansas ...the new Negro dance is now becom called the Lindy Hop ...It will probably be the history of the Lindy hop ...The Lindy hop made its first official appearance in Harlem Date: Thursday, August 28, 1930 City: Emporia State: Kansas Then I did a serach for headline "Lindy Hops The Atlantic" and nothing came up.

Thanks for your information! This guy presented the articles he found in one of regular evening meetings in Herrang, so there were a lot of others who saw the articles. I talked later with him and he promised to publish those articles in his website not later than three weeks...

I didn't take a closer look to them, because he promised to publish them in the net.

I'll e-mail to him and ask when he's going to do that. It seems now, that his website is out of use...

Also he stressed the fact that those dances called "The Lindy Hop" in the articles were different dances than the Harlem based one.

I would like to also know, how Terry came into the conclusion that the Harlem based Lindy Hop was first time called "The Lindy Hop" in September 1928? Is there some newspaper article or how that happened?

Honestly I don't know where Stearns got the July 4 date from. However the close date, I wouldn't be surprised to find that this was really the marathon shorty used to talk about. Of course dance marathons weren't uncommon back then, and shorty could very well have entered multiple.

Quoted from "AKE"

Quoted from "thenewgroovinsax"
Closest I ever found was this, from the June 21, 1928 New York Times:

Quote
19 Couples Left in Harlem Derby. As the sixty-second hour of Harlem's dance marathon at Manhattan Casino drew to an end last night, nineteen couples of the original twenty-four remained in the race. All the prizes offered for fancy stepping and other competitions during the evening were won by George Snowden and Mattie Purnell.

Thanks! Was there anything about the maraton, when it ended in the 4th of July 1928 (if we trust on Stearns' Jazz Dance)?

Quoted from "thenewgroovinsax"
Wikipedia claims that the dance marathon happened on June 17 in the Manhattan Casino. Given the June 21 date of this article, I assume this it the right one.

Quoted from "thenewgroovinsax"
Honestly I don't know where Stearns got the July 4 date from. However the close date, I wouldn't be surprised to find that this was really the marathon shorty used to talk about. Of course dance marathons weren't uncommon back then, and shorty could very well have entered multiple.

Quoted from "AKE"

Quoted from "thenewgroovinsax"
Closest I ever found was this, from the June 21, 1928 New York Times:

Quote
19 Couples Left in Harlem Derby. As the sixty-second hour of Harlem's dance marathon at Manhattan Casino drew to an end last night, nineteen couples of the original twenty-four remained in the race. All the prizes offered for fancy stepping and other competitions during the evening were won by George Snowden and Mattie Purnell.

Thanks! Was there anything about the maraton, when it ended in the 4th of July 1928 (if we trust on Stearns' Jazz Dance)?

Are you sure that the marathon ended on the June 21th?

According to Stearns' it started on the June 17th and lasted eighteen days... Stearns' also claims that "...until the marathon was closed by the Board of Health at 4 a.m. on Fourth of July.".

Can anybody confirm that decision by the Board of Health?

It sounds strange that "there were 19 couples left" on the June 21th and they ended the marathon...

In addition to that I believe Stearns got most of the information from Shorty George himself from the 1959 interview. Terry could maybe confirm that?

Terry,

Interesting points. I remember somebody asking Frankie once about whether Shorty really named the dance. Frankie's response was that Shorty claimed he did, and nobody rebutted him despite the fact that there were people around who "would know." I'm not sure this is very convincing. People of Shorty's era might've found his claim believable, and might not have exactly remembered where the name came from.

The NY Times piece is the only reference to the marathon that I've found in digital archives; what other newspapers have you seen reference it?

I had never heard that the lindy hops the atlantic story was from a comedy routine! That's amusing, since that story has often been retold as "history."

Reuven

This is Peter BetBasoo. I am the guy who made that presentation in Herrang last summer. I wrote an article comparing Lindy Hop and Argentine Tango, and in my research I found a few interesting things.

Regarding the name, there is one instance I found where "Lindy Hops" is used. The headline reads "Lindy Hops For St. Louis" (Chicago Daily Tribune, June 17, 1927).

I did an exhaustive search for anything having to do with George Snowden and Lindy Hop, in various combinations, and found nothing. I don' think the George Snowden story has any merits (though it makes for a good yarn).

Here's the text from footnote 2 in my article:

"The earliest reference that I have found to "Lindy Hop" as the name of a dance is from The Independent, St. Petersburgh, Florida, June 1, 1927. The article reads: Obviously the first dance to be named for the Lindbergh flight was the "Lindy Hop." Another will be called the "non-stop" and a third the "French jump." Like all trick dances they will be done in a few theaters and dance halls where experts appear -- and that will be that."

And

"Another reference from The Hartford Courant, June 14, 1927, reads: Dancing Masters Here Introduce New 'Lindy Hop.' The article states: The premiere of the "Lindy Hop," a new dance created in honor of Colonel Charles A. Lindbergh, featured a special meeting of New England members of the Association of Dancing Masters of America Monday night at the Farmington Avenue studio of Walter U. Soby, secretary-treasurer of the New England section. The new dance was introduced by Marvin G. Ryder, Boston dancing master, and Soby termed it one of the probable dance hits of the summer.

"The Lindy Hop," described by Soby as a "slow walk, with a slight hop, quite taking and quite simple" will be officially introduced to the nation's dancing masters at the New York convention."

There are images of the newspapers in the paper I wrote. See here: http://www.boogiedrop.com/lingo/lingo.htm

Incidentally, the only reference to George Snowden and a dance marathon I found was a headline that read "14 Couples Survive Eleven Days' Dance" (New York Times June 21, 1928 Page 27). The story said "As the sixty-second hour of Harlem's dance marathon at Manhattan Casino drew to an end last night, nineteen couples of the original twenty-four remained in the race. All the prizes offered for fancy stepping and other competitions during the evening were won by George Snowden and Mattie Purnell."

This is amazing stuff -- thanks, all!

A lot of what's missing, of course, is a New York City paper talking about Lindy's Hop. Or "Lindy Hops." What you all have to realize is that you're not going to find digital archives of every single newspaper in New York City that existed in 1928, such as the Sun, Herald-Tribune, Daily Mirror, American, World, Globe, etc.

I think the headline needs T-shirtification.

Found an obscure reference to something called: "Beer Hops" :dunno:

Quoted from "Dancing_Life"
I'm not at all an expert for this but think there's at least one major undeclared assumption made by anybody trying to find publications of the "Lindy Hop" with reference to Shorty. The story of Shorty giving the name to a journalist could be all true but why should the journalist have used this in his report? As far as I remember I never heard the story saying that Shorty's words became published, just that he answered a question of a journalist. The name could just as well have been made up by Short at the occasion. It seems like "Lindy Hop" expressions and dances were kind of a plausible thing to do at the time and Shorty, tired and exhausted, but knowing that he and his partner were just creating something outstanding (given the prices he was winning) , confronted with the question: "What kind of dance is that?" just said what came up his mind. The journalist might have very well dropped this "information" immediately - maybe sensing that Shorty was just inventing things - or it got lost anywhere else in the process of publishing, maybe just the need to shorten a line. And later the word got spread in the dance community, not least because Shorty afterwards remembered his own words and talked about it. Or any other dancer. Most likely Shorty talked a lot to other dancers about the dance marathon afterwards so his story and maybe naming will have travelled fast in the swing dance scene of the day. After all, somebody must have come up with the name and the not-yet-Lindyhoppers picked it up and identified themselves with it. A respected dancer of their own ranks might have been a better source for them than a sensational headline made up by whoever or a sideline in a newspaper or movie news. Just an idea. As long as no other plausible sources come up, I think the Shorty-story to be the best fitting in general even if decorated with some extras during the years of myth-building.

As Shorty George said in his interview from 1959, that he did "The Lindy". He didn't say 'The Lindy Hop'. What is intresting in fact. I don't know since when he exactly has started to claim that he danced 'The Lindy Hop'.

It seems that the term 'The Lindy Hop' started later to spread around as the name of the Harlem based dance. When this exactly started to happen is obviously The Lincoln Theatre event in the September 1928 connected somehow (Terry may explain?) to Shorty George's and his partner dancing in the theatre.

What comes to your speculation that Shorty George had the name in his mind when he danced in the marathon is possible, but it's just a speculation until we have a proof for that. Basically he could have even read earlier the paper, where standed "Lindy Hops for St. Louis"... We simply don't know, if so... It's just speculation without any proof.

And what comes the "respected dancer" -fact. Shorty hadn't got so much reputation yet... The proof for his lesser reputation before the marathon win is that Savoy Manager Charles Buchanan didn't give a permission to Shorty George to represent the Savoy Ballroom in the marathon. As the story goes according to lines of the interview Mr. Buchanan "presented Mr. George Snowden a gilt lifetime pass to the Savoy after the marathon win.

Terry's explanation that it's less probable that "Fox Movietone News" reporter asked from Shorty, what he was doing, is in my opinion correct until there is better proof for that.

Penguinbob wrote:

Quote
Given the number of people on here from NYC can anyone head down to the NY Public Library and do some research?

Although my first response is to say do it as I m in favour of everyone possible getting involved in the necessary research tasks, my gut feeling is to say you will be wasting your time. I have checked all the NY papers I could locate in the NYPL and found nothing. But if you still believe it to be worthwhile go right ahead. I can only say you will probably have more success in getting a firm grip on the end of a rainbow, or finding the Holy Grail or indeed an autographed copy of the Bible.

Establishing if movie newsreel units ever interviewed anyone such as Snowden in 1928, would be a more useful endeavour in my view. However as we know that the name Lindy Hop wasn t applied to the dance for three months after its first appearance, why not look at the more recent dimension of the same isssue? Questioning my assertion that the Lindy Hops The Atlantic headline story didn t appear before 1986 would be easier and possibly more helpful.

Even the most familiar publications don t mention this story. The 1943 LIFE magazine Lindy Hop feature doesn t, nor does the Stearns Jazz Dance published in 1968. Barbara Engelbrecht s 1983 article Swinging At The Savoy (published in Dance Research Journal) doesn t include it, and neither did the slightly later articles published in 1986 by Bob Crease and myself or Margaret Batiuchok in her 1988 MA on the Lindy. Mama Lou Parks who was a constant in terms of Lindy Hopping from the last years of the Savoy until her death in 1990, and who always mentioned Lindbergh whenever she had the opportunity, also never mentioned this story. Although it s virtually inconceivable that the story could have escaped all these accounts, it needs to be checked out as thoroughly as the supposed original newspaper headline has been.

My explanation is simply this the Lindbergh myth (albeit not yet in the shape of the newspaper headline story) was useful in the Savoy days for providing outsiders with an understanding of what the dance was about. Those who were part of the scene didn t need it. The truth for them was right there in the music and dance, because they experienced it as a living cultural continuity. Thus the reason for the invention and then exponential growth of the headline story over the past 20 years in particular is because of the dramatic worldwide proliferation of the dance. Rarely is the dance taught in relation to its real cultural significance and meaning, and thus huge vacuums are constantly being created. This cod explanation fills those gaps nicely.

Thanks Keepa for the Hartford Courant reference, Lance told me about it some time back but I couldn t find it. Funny thing is the description reminds me of how we used to dance the basic Hustle the first time round, which via the Mambo is a kind of derivative of the Lindy!

Hi Reuven, I heard Frankie making that point also re no one else contradicted Snowden s claims about the Lindy Hop the first time round however Twistmouth George did. He claimed he invented it, as indeed Whitey did also later on. I would guess Frankie wasn t around when those challenges were being made. I suppose this demonstrates just how easy it was to miss out on important discussion back then as it is today.

Hi Frankyboy, could be a good point re the hop thing, especially if it was meant to imply that what Lindbergh did was no sweat as opposed to the original first aerial crossing of the Atlantic by the two British pilots that is hardly ever mentioned. Lindbergh certainly had the looks of a hero he just didn t have whatever it takes to live up to it. Wrong Way Corrigan, one of Lindbergh s mechanics for his flight, would have probably made a more suitable hero figure but he was suspected of breaking the rules. Corrigan didn t have the same business connections, and although he managed to scrape a plane together he couldn t get clearance to fly the Atlantic. So he filed a flight to California but then claimed his compass didn t work and thus when he landed in Ireland he asked if it was California? Hence the name. Lance told me years ago that he did have a dance named after him.

Hi Ake

Sorry, don't have the tech know-how to get the Lincoln Theatre gig advert on line at the moment - will do it soon though as part of revamping my Savoy Site.

I don't have time to locate the Twistmouth source right now, but I've read several references to the claim. However the claim Whitey created the LH is in the Piitsburgh Courier for Sept 28, 1940 p21. It's worth bearing in mind Linbergh was in national disgrace by this time, so it was more or less open season as far as claiming authorship of the Lindy or first dancing it was concerned.

Terry

Good idea Ake - the more people doing original research the better. As I mentioned before I got started as a result of wondering about obvious discrepancies in the familiar accounts, and as those accounts grew into even more bizarre elaborations I began to question further. My best advice is stay as close to broad questions which concern the swing scene as a whole, such as the whys and wherefores of this evidently false story about "Lindy Hops The Atlantic". It caused me to look closely at the 1928 Marathon for example in order to see if there was an actual link with Lindbergh's flight, and when I find out there wasn't I then went on to look more closely at the significance and role of the dance marathons in general, and from there more closely at the first generation of Lindy Hoppers etc. At the same time discussion threads such as this one are useful in relating back the resultant speculations/theorisations to the pracatical outlooks of the existing swing scene.

Gook luck

Terry

Quoted from "terry monaghan"
Good idea Ake - the more people doing original research the better. As I mentioned before I got started as a result of wondering about obvious discrepancies in the familiar accounts, and as those accounts grew into even more bizarre elaborations I began to question further. My best advice is stay as close to broad questions which concern the swing scene as a whole, such as the whys and wherefores of this evidently false story about "Lindy Hops The Atlantic". It caused me to look closely at the 1928 Marathon for example in order to see if there was an actual link with Lindbergh's flight, and when I find out there wasn't I then went on to look more closely at the significance and role of the dance marathons in general, and from there more closely at the first generation of Lindy Hoppers etc. At the same time discussion threads such as this one are useful in relating back the resultant speculations/theorisations to the pracatical outlooks of the existing swing scene. Gook luck Terry

Hi Terry!

Thanks! I agree with you. As I've gone through those sites in the net, I've become to the same results. The same obviously false stories go around from site to site. I've read regurlarly only a few sites in the net. I also agree that those speculations/theorisations are useful to find out practical outlooks of the existing swing scene, which are in fact intresting, because there can be found fresh ideas to research work.

I also have observed the growing interest to the dancehistory, which I appreciate very much, because only a few can't do the huge research work, which should be done for keeping live the history of old dances.

As you say: the more people doing the original research the better.

I believe that most of enthusiasists really try to find out how it was and that's why it's most of importance to publish the results of research work, that the most can find them so easily as possible.

Harri (a.k.a. AKE)