The problem with the lesson plan is that it assumes people don't mind working for three weeks and not being able to get on the dance floor. They can get all the technique they need and months later attend a dance.

Generally, most people want to dance.............NOW.

So teachers teach them the minium required to have fun and get on the floor and some will refine their dancing over time and become great leads and follows, and others will just have fun with it.

NEWS. The majority of dancers just want to have fun, not become really good.

If you are an avid race car driver, tennis player, or lindy hopper, you wonder why everyone doesn't want to refine their skill to the top level the way you do. Because it's just fun to them. I spend little time racing and am a total beginner and the other drivers don't understand why i am not consumed as they are. Each his own. They don't lindy.

The number of counts in a pattern do not define a dance, just as tempo does not define a dance.

EAST COAST IS NOT 6 COUNT LINDY.

There are 4.6.8.10.12....etc count movements in lindy hop. there are many 6 and 8. There are several differences in ECS and Lindy, but one major one is this.

East Coast has a ballroom (jive in international) style of dancoing on top of the floor. so a triple triple rockstep is "up and up, up and up, up up".

Lindy has a style which dances into the floor. The same step is "down and down, down and down, down down". Unless you take from the only lindy hop instructor in the world that i know of that teaches the ballroom style whcih is Virginie.

The style is different, the posture is different, the mirrored ECS look is not there in lindy 6 count, etc..

Clearly there are similarities as well, but the styles are different.

Like Manu will teach a lindy pattern that is a chacha pattern, but the style is lindy, it is not chacha.

my .02

I think about this in my lessons all the time. I've tried both in context of a 6 week series.

Scenario one from experience: 8 Count Swing Out 1st I teach closed position and 8 count footwork and then swing outs. What happens is for the next 5 weeks I have to keep reviewing before I can move on. I don't ever get them free dancing.

Scenario two from experience: 6 counts first I teach 6 count basic in closed position and tuck turn and inside turn and 6 count circle. What happens is after 2 weeks I move onto lindy and at the end of week 3 they can do both east coast and lindy. By week 5 they are doing Charleston too. By week 6 they can free dance each section, and thats the goal.

So I'm thinking since when we dance we DO mix the 6 count "east coast" moves like tuck turn, inside turn, and 6 count circle with our lindy swing outs we may as well give them whats easier 1st.

I do agree that in half hour I could teach 8 count or 6 count but people tend to grab onto the 6 easier because, well, it's easier and takes less technique to hack around.

The downside....maybe my fault or maybe Bill Haley's, most new dancers default to bad east coast rather than swing outs even when they know both just as well.

Quoted from "Mace"
Lesson Plan: Week 1: Connection, weight, following and leading. Week 2: foot work (i.e. step step triple step repeat etc.) Week 3: Nice solid swing outs.

I used to think this way, but now I feel that it's like trying to teach a child to read by giving them grammar before they know any words. If lead/follow technique is like the grammar of lindyhop, it has to come gradually, intermixed with vocabulary.

Okay, but 6 count lindy still has a 'leadable' rock step...not one that is assumed by both lead AND follow. Or maybe even start with sugar pushes? I know I'm beating this down, but if we as dancers always say connection is everything, why do we wait weeks and weeks before we teach it?

And even later on in advanced lindy classes it seems to me that the moves are usually taught first, that is, where are the points of connection and lead actually happening...then the footwork comes last. At what point does this technique take effect?

ECS is a legitimate dance and, quite frankly, you could dance your whole life and never do Lindy Hop. Lindy Hop is a superior vehicle but it is also complicated for most rank beginners. Plus, there is no social pressure to learn it like there was in the 30s and 40s. You pretty much have to take classes and workshops.

So, yes, I think ECS should be taught in the beginning. But I also think that elements of Bal, Charleston, Lindy and etiquette should all be taught in the beginning.

Kalman

I always start with Charleston because the 8-count rhythm connects people immediately with the structure of the music. However, people do need to be able to switch back and forth between 8 and 6-count rhythms fairly early on so they don't think every "move" has to be 8 counts long.

For a single intro lesson at a dance, party, or wedding, the goal is for people to have fun and be able to get on the floor and dance as quickly as possible. So I will start with Charleston (separate and then side-by-side) and move into some 6-count with turns. Encourage people to mess around and just try to stay on beat.

For a dance series, I HATE teaching East Coast Swing as a pre-cursor to Lindy Hop. That's not where Lindy Hop came from, and there's no reason to assume people can't handle the real thing when they have signed up for a series to learn how to dance. I like to start with Charleston and move directly into swing outs. I have no problem getting brand new beginners doing awesome swing outs by the end of the first night. So don't dumb down for them... just learn how to teach good technique while keeping it simple and fun.

Jojo, you and Mouth have hit upon the same formula about teaching eight-count from the very beginning.

I just wonder: how much muscle memory should you give to a beginner in Charleston before you start on 8-count swingouts? Fifteen to 20 minutes? A half hour?

Quoted from "Mace"
Teaching East Coast: Necessary?

Necessary for what? Necessary to accomplish what goal? I think this is where many people misunderstand each other, here. I think each person has a slightly different goal, and teaching East Coast may be useful to some people, but not to others.

It may be obvious, but I think it's important to remember.

I don't think it's necessary, but I do think it helps.

As stated above, ECS/6 count will get them dancing ASAP. Pick-up lessons at dances are often 6-count also, so it gives them the dance to get a review of your, right before thy step on the floor at the dance. This can be a great confidence builder because it a) refreshes their memory, and b) gives them a chance to be a sort of ringer as they have already had some of the material covered in the pick-up lesson.

The other reason to teach six-count, in a move-based format, is that it s easier. Not everyone wants a challenge, most students just want to have fun, so if you make it too hard, or too esoteric in the first class, then students will not come back for the second. Most people are nervous and uncomfortable enough the first time out dancing without knowing that to be a good dancer takes a time, effort, and is not as easy as just coming to class every week. You give them an early success because it makes them feeling like dancing is actually something they can learn, and it keeps it fun. If they stick with it you will have plenty of time to challenge them later on.

It sounds like you may be wrestling with the problems that most, if not all, dance teachers come to at some point. You look back at how you learned, and you think If only you had learned connection before you learned moves, etc. and you come up with a way of learning that you think will make for a better dancer, faster. You are probably not wrong either.

Thing is, you are probably thinking with your current mindset about dancing. Maybe you are not thinking with your past mindset, the one you want into your first dance lesson with, and the one that all of those beginners walk in with every day. Connection, frame, and such, to a beginner dancer, are not dancing . They may not even appear as if they are practical for anything to a beginner. In a beginner Lindy class, we teach a little connection, just to get them introduced to the idea of what compression and tension feel like at the beginning of class. Then when the class has some problems with the moves we teach later on, we can go back and say remember that exercise we did at the beginning of class? and use it to get them to understand how those concepts fit into the context of what they do understand as dancing, the moves. If you want people to change their values and expectations of what dancing is, from moves to technique , you have to take them on that trip over time, and let them discover it for themselves. If you just say it up front, they will not believe you.

My only goal, as a dance instructor for beginner dancers, is to get them dancing. Get them out on the floor as fast as I can, even if it s messy. You can always clean up the mess later on, and the dance floor is where you really learn to dance anyway. Most importantly, no one falls in love with dancing in a classroom. They fall in love with dancing on the dance floor, the faster you get them out there, the faster their confidence builds, and the more likely they are to fall in love with it.

I have always felt that you should not try to create more hardcore dancers in the beginner class. Hardcore dancers create themselves and the dance has worked it s magic on thousands of people already. So give them some instruction and direction, and let them find the rest for themselves. All the subtle things that you want people to learn will come up in time, probably in questions that your students ask you in class.

In later classes, once the students are already into the dance, you can give them the things that you wanted to give them form the start. At that point, they are more accepting of things like refining existing techniques as opposed to learning new moves.

ECS, at least the way I learned it, is certainly not an "up and up, up and up, up up" dance. It is all down into the ground. I think of it as down down rockstep, to use the same terms. I suppose if you taught it like Jive...

At Lindy Groove, I teach Lindy Hop first. Most of my students do at least a few dances on their first night from what I can observe. Many of my students are overwhelmed on their first night, but then return to find that it becomes much easier. I have considered teaching six-count patterns occasionally, since they are often used by many of the people they dance with. However, I have found that most of the people in the class will be able to learn east coast with very little effort, especially since other beginning leads tend to stick with what they're comfortable. As a dance, East Coast seems to me like a waste of a good hour. Mind you that of the swing-related dances it's the one I learned first.

There's no way I could give a percentage, but we see a lot of returns to the beginning class at Lindy Groove. At least a few experienced dancers have said to me that they didn't believe that Lindy Hop could be taught in a way that appealed to beginners and gave them enough information to get on the floor until they saw my class.

I only teach east coast to the couples who show up late and want to learn something in a minute that will get them on the floor. I'm not a big fan of learning the rockstep by rote, but will teach it in a pinch. I have occasionally taught Charleston as a precursor to swingout, but haven't developed the lesson plan to make me happy with that class. Teaching Charleston as a whole class seems inappropriate for the music that my students will be hearing, and that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.

As far as I'm concerned, getting people engaged and participating, and returning is the key. Even if you teach them East Coast, Six-Count, whatever there is no guarantee that they'll get on the floor. For a first-timer, it's all about getting behind their fear and giving them a little push. After that, it's all about getting them to come back again.

I should add that in our scene, before we started our dance company and started teaching this way, pretty much everyone learned ECS first and then 8 count lindy hop. As a result, the vast majority of the dancers cannot lead/follow 6 counts in lindy hop and a lot of their 8 count lindy hop looks/feels like crap because they don't really understand the dynamic of the dance.

At a club, probably more important than what happens in the class is what happens during general dancing. If the beginners still feel welcome after the music starts the chances of a return increase by a hundredfold.

Once I was teaching a class with another teacher who pulled that whole "let's just dance to this music" thing and boy did it go over the heads of the class. For that to work, I think it's important to read the students in advance and play it by ear. It seems to me that more often than not, you'll go completely over the heads of folks that aren't ready for it and lose their confidence.

There's always going to be a 6/8 schism for the newbie no matter which way you teach it. And as long as they return there will be time for them to learn it.

On the other hand, I have found that at least a few people who learned east coast previously have had a dilly of a time unlocking that rock-step. One follow got really frazzled and started to feel that she had learned it the wrong way before. I assured her that wasn't the case and that learning new things can often be frustrating. I don't know if I got through to her. Still, most returning dancers learn as much as they need or want.

I remember that for a long while, 6/8 transition classes were pretty popular at the camps. As long as we're getting such a big new influx of dancers this year (at least here in Los Angeles), it seems like an important class to bring back! It's in a class like this that East Coast Swing and 2/4/6/8 Lindy Hop can find synthesis.

So for clarity, Lindy Hop can be taught as a few discrete, repeatable actions. Whether you use 6 or 8 shouldn't matter as long as the teacher understands their own goal for the students, in the short and long terms. Teaching East Coast does not necessarily prepare the students for Lindy Hop, other than getting them on the floor and building a confidence in a very specific and difficult to synthesize pattern. That rockstep is always the kicker.

But a hundred times more important than that is how welcomed your beginners feel after the class is done. Many of them understand that learning will be frustrating, so it's the pre and post class vibe that makes or breaks their return.

There's nothing wrong with the rockstep per se. I make sure that the leads in my basics class learn the rockstep by rote. It's learning something that will become an obstacle later that's the problem. I think the example with the young lady I presented shows only one situation where the rockstep can be problematic.

The things I present in my class are intended to get them through the class, through the basic, very no frills. In my Lindy Hop class, I probably wouldn't teach the leads to rockstep if I didn't feel it helped them get to the next part of the swingout. That said, many of my leads have found a way to make it work without the rockstep. Ahh, beginners.

I give my follows a different set of tools to get their swingouts working. The rockstep specifically doesn't help them achieve a swingout and creates an action that makes it much tougher for the leads to learn their jobs.

A rockstep has got a pretty neat dynamic, I'll agree with you there.

Re: rock steps

So don't teach it to them by rote. Teach them to lead and follow it.

Regarding the swingout, we choose to teach swingouts with rock steps. We like 'em better for a lot of reasons. You may not agree, but ideally this should at least be an option... and if they can lead/follow rock steps, it will be!

Jumping in late-

I feel that every swing dancer should be able to dance basic ECS. When I first learned to swing dance it was ECS. It was all open and there was some basic connection practiced at the beginning of each class. Before I learned Lindy I could not do 6 count basic/lindy/ecs with a lindy hopper because the two dances were just that different to me. I live in a city that has always had a fairly large ECS scene.

Lately many new dancers have started off just learning Lindy. So at dances I hear these new dances say that they can't do ECS. I think that is quite pathetic. ECS is far more simple. One way for people to get better in their dancing is to dance with experienced dancers - so what happens when a new dancer who knows ECS comes in and few of the experienced dancers can dance with them cause they only know lindy? That is why I think everyone should be taught ECS to start.