Don't teach, never have; never will. Why am I posting on a thread which has morphed into selections of breakfast food? Beats the hell outta me, but I have several completely averag comments--only can judge if they are worthwhile:

I agree and disagree, in part, with everyone--excepting, I much prefer waffles.

One of the little secrets in teaching swing dance to beginners is this. To keep them coming to class forever, teach them nothing they can actually use on the dance floor, as only on the dance floor can they gain the muscle memory to learn and keep a taught movement.

A teacher (who shall remain un-named) used to teach 6 count to beginners once a week in free classes before a dance, but could get very few to go to his intermediate class where I believe he taught 8 count. So, the teacher changed, and began teaching the 8 count swing-out to beginners, with the teacher telling them "don't worry if you don't get it this week, we will go over it every week unto eternity." or something like that. Now, he gets more people coming to his intermediate class. Make what you will of this--I find it interesting.

Some time ago, LH teachers were polled to determine how many weeks it would take them to install a servicable 8-count swing-out in the average beginner. The consensus was 7 weeks--I also find this interesting.

Don't bother to answer or take issue with me, as I intend to die sometime during the next 24 hours.

Allen Hall

Quoted from "bryn"
TheRiz - No.

Why thank you for the insightful counter. So swing should therefore not be fun, you should not just focus on getting rhythmless newbies dancing and instead harp on proper technique and confusing rhythms, every new leader will immediately understand the finer points of connection and frame, and there is no difference between teaching a group that are showing up for a series of six classes versus a random group of people that show up to a free downtown outdoor swing dance. </bandwidth wasting> Who are you teaching? I deal with lots of middle-aged folks that do ballroom and really really don't like running around to what we'd consider a mid-tempo tune. Refinement of earlier thought - Does no one here remember what it was like to suck? Oh no, wait, I forgot, everyone here just "got it" right-away. Lindy is freakin' hard. I didn't do a swingout for years.

:guitar2: Guitar Playing analogy that's apt, although not worth reading if you don't play: No, you do not need to learn ECS/6ct. I can teach you to play guitar only using Barre-Chords, but if you only use E-Form Barre Chords or A-Form Barre-Chords you are not going to be playing jack for a couple of months plus you'll be missing out on a lot of big picture stuff way later down the chain. If I teach you the normal open chords, well you ain't playing jack for a couple of weeks. The simpler chords may not be as utilitarian from a purely technical point of view, but they require much less technique to execute. If some is paying me to teach them to play guitar, I teach them to play the guitar as soon as poosible, not to wait to one day be able to do it.

I never call it Lindy if it ain't. In the meantime, if you think it aids your students to teach them a screwed up rhythm charleston method and go right to Lindy, more power to you n' your scene. I deal with weak dancers that are very unsure of themselves and I am freely admitting that I'm submitting to the status quo so they can have as much fun as possible at the expense of some technique.

Rock on! --R

I, for one, would like to express a contrary view - I am NOT comfortable with the food / dancing metaphors that have been running through this thread. To get back to the original syllabus:

Quoted from "shaun"
In the meantime, I will keep my syllabus as it is: Week 1 - Teach the Pancake so that students can immediately go out and have some fun. Week 2 - Throw in the Lampost and Snatch. Week 3 - 6 count Pancake so students can mix 6s and 8s Weeks 4, 5, 6, 7 8 - Break down the East Cost Swing basic. Week 9 - Teach the students how awesome I am. We save this until last since students seem to have most difficulty with this class.

Now, I'm as happy as the next guy to chow down on pancakes, but I get very particular when it comes to snatch, and there's NO WAY I'm putting a lampost in my mouth.

As someone who is still unlearning ECS habits that are hindering my lindy 9 months in, I appreciate the dangers of developing bad habits in students. But these are really only "bad habits," if the students are interested in learning lindy. I think some folks are talking past one another--no surprise for a Yehoodi discussion :)--because some are talking about the 30-minute one shot dealies, while others are talking about multi-week courses.

What one teaches should probably depend on a number of factors: - The goals of the class (Get people up and dancing right away? Get people interested in taking more lindy or swing classes? Build solid fundamental skills?) - The length and format of the course (one-shot deal vs. multi-week?) - Who the students are and what their interests and abilities are (Individuals at a wedding? Lots of rhythm-challenged leads dragged to class by their partners? Folks who are already hard-core about learning lindy? Lots of students with experience in other dances?). - What the context of the class is (Is the scene primarily a lindy one or do a lot of people also dance ECS at events? Is it a place where couples dance together or there is a lot of mixing?) - Some theory of how skills best (most easily) build upon one another - What skills and moves are useful on the social dance floor, where the students can gain practice, feedback, and sense of success.

So, for the one-shot 30 minute class before a wedding where the goal is really to help the attendees dance to the hired jazz band and have a fun time, by all means teach them a quick-and-dirty version of ECS.

For all other types of classes, you basically have to balance short-term and long-term considerations. So, for instance, while focusing on frame, connection, and movement for an entire first class (as the original poster suggested?) might make sense in the long term, in the short term, it can be deadly to students' interest and retention. It doesn't provide the student with much they can implement on the social dance floor and the motivation that comes from this. So, I would integrate the technique with teaching some basic moves. Jojo's design of teaching Charleston and then moving to swingout without triples seems to be designed to facilitate this. But there are many other ways of doing this integration.

In general, I would argue for teaching good technique along the way. There are times when shortcuts are necessary given the goals of the class, but, if the students are going to continue on to study more lindy, it's best to try to avoid inculcating bad habits. Bad habits are a b! ch to get rid of.

Also, don't stick rigidly to a particular sequence and pace if it doesn't work! Adjust what you do based on what the particular group of students is or is not picking up. What works with one group may not work well with another. You may need a plan B.

I agree with the whole "what are your goals" thing.

I used to teach 20 minute drop in classes at a bar where people had already been drinking. You better believe it was quick and dirty. I never EVER purposely taught "short cuts" or bad technique to get something done. I simply chose moves that were easy enough to teach without teaching them badly. (Yes they were 6 ct and sometimes single steps.)

I have also taught something called "The 8 Count Crash Course" which I posted about in one of the 5000 previous threads on this topic. I taught it much like the class Jojo describes. It was 3 hours long, since it was a crash course, so it was more intense. But it worked basically the same way. Started with charleston, worked on the side by side basics and some variations. One of the variations was the guy moving in front of the girl on 1/2/3/4 and moving back to her side on 5/6/7/8. That lead beautifully into the second half of the crash course which was on swingouts. We used the "guy moving in front" charleston variation as the first half of the swingout from closed and then taught more swingout variations from there. It was amazing how quickly they got it. So yeah, Jojo's thing works. It works good, too.

But what are your goals? If teaching some charleston and swingouts is your goal then that class is one I HIGHLY recommend.

But perhaps that's not your goal.

I currently teach a 4 week beginner series class. We ask our students to take that series 3 times before moving on to our intermediate level classes. Why? Because we see our curriculum as possibly the ONLY teaching our students might ever get and our goal is to make them functional members of our lindy hop community. And after much discussion we realized there was a butt load of stuff to teach at the "beginner" level in order for our students to get on the dance floor and feel good about themselves as dancers.

In each month long class we teach a handful of 6 count lindy moves - because they are danced socially in our community. We also teach swingout - closed to open, open to open, open to closed.

Beyond that each month has a topic - Charleston, footwork and rhythm variations, and tuck turns/breakaways. So, for example, month 1 gets a bunch of 6 ct and 3 swingouts plus basic charleston and maybe a variation or 2. Enough stuff so that they could feel good social dancing after a month, but probably need a whole lot more work on those moves before feeling truly good about them (depending on the dancer). Which is why we make them take 2 more months of class before moving on.

By the end of those 3 months they have a wealth of 6 ct moves (because people social dance with 6 count moves in our community), plenty of time spent on swingouts, a bit of charleston, some basic footwork variations (like kick steps, swivels, kick ball change, whatever), tuck turns, a few fun break away steps (boogies and whatnot), and the whole time they've been able - even from week 1 - to get on the floor and social dance with at least the other people in their class.

In my opinion, considering the platform we're working with and the community in which we live, it works.

But this method would NOT work if you don't teach a series or if your students don't come back for several months, etc. You get the idea.

Oh and one more thing - THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS EAST COAST SWING. AAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So stop calling it that. I will not discuss this. Go look up the old threads.

Ya, goals are important.

To be totally clear, the class I've been describing is our formula for an introductory lesson (adapted to the amount of time, the venue, and the crowd, but generally speaking the basic structure always works), and also the first class of our 6 week Swing I series (again, adapted to context).

Our goals are:

1. Fun
2. Enough proficiency to keep having fun the rest of the night
3. Hopefully the above will encourage them to sign up for our classes, bring friends, etc.

But also, and this is the part of TheRiz' argument I don't agree with, it's important to us not to teach things wrong. We may not cover absolutely everything in extreme depth, but everything we teach is basically skimming the surface of exactly the same concepts we will continue to teach later on.

There are certain concepts that are a bitch to teach to beginners... frame, connection, etc. The last way you're going to achieve the results you want is if you talk a lot about them or are too focused on making them perfect. Of course you're not going to achieve that goal if you teach them the wrong thing, either.

So instead, I propose this... Don't start off by trying to explicitly teach these things at all. We avoid words like frame and connection like the plague. Instead, we teach in a way that facilitates these things to happen on their own. Some tips:

• Give them a few chances to try something before you correct them
• Talk very little... 3 sentences about technique max. at a time
• Get them dancing to music a lot
• Rotate often... dancing with many different partners will usually help them sort things out for themselves
• Focus on the result you're aiming for rather than all the nitty gritty details of how you achieve it
• Be forgiving... no matter what you do, they won't be perfect... know what's "good enough for now"
• Use simple, fun moves that flow naturally and exemplify the concepts you want to teach

Basically, all I'm saying is that there have always been these debates about whether you should teach technique or moves, ECS or lindy hop... and the thing is, you can have the best of all worlds! And knowing that, why wouldn't you?

The rockstep thing... there are arguments for putting it first and arguments for putting it last. I already explained why we put it last (it's better for establishing lead/follow right off the bat and better reflects how advanced dancers start a dance... by stepping together). Later on when we get into kicksteps, the rockstep comes first because it's easier to start that footwork that way, but this transition has never been a problem for any of my students.

I also want to say... I have loads of respect for Nicole and Jojo as teachers and their posts in this thread have reinforced that, despite them having a very different approach from mine. They're the only real reason I'm still posting here.

Quoted from "bryn"
But also, and this is the part of TheRiz' argument I don't agree with, it's important to us not to teach things wrong. We may not cover absolutely everything in extreme depth, but everything we teach is basically skimming the surface of exactly the same concepts we will continue to teach later on.

I agree with Bryn on this. I also agree about being forgiving and patient. However, it also helps to be a stickler about certain things and to know what to let go and what to stick with and nail down correctly.

I was at Beantown camp last month and Peter Strom was teaching us relative newbies some tandem charleston. At one point, I was having problems getting the arm movements right--i.e., to get them to swing naturally. He stopped me at one point and said, "Make sure your left arm goes forward when you start your rock step." When i tried it again and did it wrong, he stopped me immediately, and told me, "No, try it again. I'm going to be a stickler on this. I'm not going to let you do this wrong, because, if you just get this one thing right, everything that follows will work out naturally." And he was absolutely right. And I'm glad he corrected me right then and there, because otherwise I would have struggled unnecessarily and possibly developed some bad habits.

I followed the first few pages of this thread fairly close and was puzzled by the references to East Coast Swing and then later Six Count Lindy. I am not sure about this, but I got the idea that in the context of this thread the terms:

"East Coast Swing" must refer to the old "Jerk & Twirl", giant rock-step, bad technique, cave-man dancing to fast tempos that often resulted in sore shoulders and sometimes out right injuries.

"Six Count Lindy" must refer to six count swing dancing performed with proper technique that flows well into and out of eight and other counts of Lindy Hop.

The method used to teach me in St. Louis about 6 or 7 years ago began with what they called "Six Count East Coast Swing." This was taught in two four week sessions called Lindy I and Lindy II. And you were highly encouraged to master I before you moved on to II.

<b>BUT, the GOAL from the very first minute of the very first lesson was to teach proper lead/follow dance techniques that would over time (in Lindy III and Lindy IV) evolve into Lindy Hop Swing Dancing.</b>

If the question posed at the beginning of this thread can be intrepreted to mean: "is learnig the old "Old Jerk &amp; Twirl" neccessary?" as a prerequisite to learning Lindy Hop, I say "HELL NO;" and I would hope that most on here would agree that teaching bad dancing is never a good idea.

But, if the question is do you need to "correctly" teach six count swing complete with many of the elements of proper lead/follow dance tecnique as a prerequisite to learning Lindy Hop, I say it probably is a very good place to start.

I have danced with many brand new Folows who were taught a basic eight count swing-out during their first one-hour lesson. What we were doing was not dancing, it was mostly just walking through a pattern around eachother.

The progressive lesson that we taught and termed "Swing I," took three one hour lessons to teach the basic swingout to students who had already taken and practiced "proper" six count dancing (not Jerk &amp; Twirll) for four weeks. It worked pretty well for us. Then in the last lesson of the series we taught transitions between 6 &amp; 8 count and the most common variations: the inside and outside turn on the back end of the swingout.

That's all I got on the subject.

Now this thread has become a debate on whether ECS or Lindy Hop is the real "swing."

Quoted from "bryn"
While it often gets taught with bad technique, there is actually a perfectly legitimate dance that looks vaguely like 6 count moves in lindy hop, but employs different (not inherently bad) technique.

Really? How different are we talking here? So different that someone who took a beginner Lindy class that focused on 6 count moves couldn't dance with someone who studied what you're talking about? Like, not at all?

Because if that's so. I'd love to see it.

(Implying I haven't seen anything of the sort in my entire life. These so called "differences" are usually more dramatized and don't actually hinder the dance in a crippling fashion so as to make them 2 completely separate and legitimate dances. For an example, try letting a beginner West Coast Swing dancer social dance with a beginner Lindy Hopper. Doesn't usually work out too well. Same thing if you replaced WCS or Lindy Hop with Carolina Shag. THOSE are separate and legitimate dances. ECS is a fallacy, made up, and mostly either wrongly used terminology or bad swing dancing that could be fixed by the student working with a teacher who's head wasn't up their butt.)

Damn. I said I wasn't gonna talk about this. I lose.

Quoted from "apostle"
Now this thread has become a debate on whether ECS or Lindy Hop is the real "swing."

Quoted from "bryn"
Thanks for the observation, apostle, but no... it hasn't.

But he did get someone to take notice of him, albeit briefly, which seems to be his aim in life.

Quoted from "bryn"
We will not teach anything progressive in a drop in because we believe progressive lessons are the place for this. So once they've taken an intro lesson, we encourage them to sign up for our progressive lessons. And usually they do, because they've enjoyed the intro so much and they know that's the only way they'll get more.

I've been running into this in my area a bit - since I have two other sports/physical movement stuff that I already compete in and take lessons in, it's been very tough to find workable progressive lessons. Most of the venues in my area do the "step-step-rockstep" or "triple-triple-rockstep" (since you don't want it to be called ECS) with some turns and stuff for variation as their drop-in class. I've had a really good Charleston class that really clarified it for me, and a couple that covered the swingout, but most of the ones that go into any depth are billed as intermediate rather than beginner, so I'm worried I don't know enough swing dancing to really keep up with everyone else in the class. Plus, most of them are progressive, so unless I happen to go there on the first night of the series, I can't sign up anyway.

I've mostly been doing Blues dancing, which has drop-in classes at a time that works out well for me, but I'd really like to get more into the swing (and especially Lindy) stuff. Any suggestions?

I can usually follow what people lead socially, but occasionally I misinterpret something, and I know I have a lot to learn. :)

Quoted from "Whisper"
I've been running into this in my area a bit - since I have two other sports/physical movement stuff that I already compete in and take lessons in, it's been very tough to find workable progressive lessons.

We try to vary the content of our drop-in lessons from week to week, so that someone who can't take progressive lessons can still attend the drop-in lessons and get something new each time. So for instance our beginner lessons rotate between 30s partner Charleston, 6-count Lindy, and 8-count Lindy. (I don't like teaching 6- and 8-count Lindy as separate topics, but I do like that we vary the content.) We also rotate between different teachers, and I like to think that by exposing students to different teaching styles we give them the opportunity to learn different things and see the dance from different perspectives.

Oops, I didn't realise I hadn't put my location in my profile. Anyway, I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area, so there is a huge array of venues and weekend workshops and stuff. I've looked around at websites for the regular venues I'm aware of, but have had trouble finding something that works with my schedule. :( (Lesson starting at 8:30 or later on a weeknight, or in the evening on Saturday or Sunday, preferably in the South Bay.) I'm sure there are lots of options out there, and I'm probably just not looking in the right places.

I can do private lessons, but I think that having the opportunity to practice right afterward is really helpful at this stage. There are so many great teachers in the area that I'm a little overwhelmed by all the options for picking someone, actually. :lol:

When I've gone to Stepping Out, the people at the front desk usually have me join the Intermediate class after asking how long I've been dancing. It was really a challenge to keep up with everyone, and I was worried I was being a little unfair to the leads. Next time, I'll ask the instructor if I should head over to the beginning lesson instead.