Quoted from "redbean"
My paraphrase was hyperbole. I apologize if I took it too far. I'm just tired of the entirety of blues dancing being painted with the same broad brush.

That too is hyperbole, though. I don't think anyone was arguing that ALL of you dance like Humpy McHumperson, but you can't argue that some stuff helps and some stuff doesn't help. I think people have gone out of their way to differentiate that there are different ways to use the same term "blues dancing." That has been made abundantly clear. However if you're going to talk about the scene as a whole you ought to be including the good and the bad

Quote
I know how I dance and I know how most of the people I associate with (on a dancing basis) dance and it bears no resemblance to the way blues dancing tend to be portrayed here. And yet I (and others) continue to be included in the "blues dancing" brush stroke.

If it's going to be a single brush stroke then why can't I include everything in it? You're a part of that scene, and those elements ARE in the scene, even if you don't specifically engage in those elements. There's a convincing argument (convincing to me anyway) that the stuff you don't like about blues dancing is part and parcel of your scene, even if many of you don't dance that way. Certainly by looking at some of GGB's threads about strippers, the "Best Ass" competition, "The Joy of Cuddling," and seeing some of the innuendos and double entendres that you, your husband, and other prominent advocates of blues dancing have made, for example the one about bringing your own lube to a blues dance (a joke your husband recently made with Signet on Yehoodi, I believe), it's not hard for me to at least consider whether or not there's that kind of stuff in the blues scene. You may disagree and you're of course entitled to your opinion.

Besides, if I am to make a single "blues dancing" brush stroke, it should include those elements as well as the Damon-ish elements of the historical stuff. No one has indicated that EVERYONE in your scene dances like they're having sex, merely that those elements exist, both on the floor and in the culture.

Quote
Did it occur to you that I didn't correct Steven because it was his opinion, his acronym, my tolerance of the expression of his opinion? I don't see anyone calling out Beckto for her constant "blues dancing" comments or asking her to tone it down, here. :)

Well none of us are claiming to be tolerant open minded discussors of serious topics. By claiming that (a) GGB is a more tolerant and open minded forum where people give and take, and that (b) you engage in that tolerance and open-mindedness towards all, you put a higher burden on yourself and on your fellow forum members to lead by example. You would certainly correct a lindy hopper who made an incorrect statement about blues dancers. Why not tolerate that opinion also?

re Beckto, everyone pretty much knows (and has indicated in several threads) that Beckto's posts are pure flamebait and are not meant to be taken as actual analysis. Dr. Feelgood's acronym was actual analysis meant to be taken as such. There's a different standard there.

I realize that. I'm capable of discerning between meta-grossness and actual grossness. :)

That having been said, I still think my point stands. I mean, the cuddling thread is 6 pages long. The "War Against Underpants" thread is 8 pages long.

And if I may say so, in the "parallel" GGB thread to this one, you and a lot of other folks all say "I'm going to keep reading the Yehoodi thread but I'm not going to participate. It's just not possible to have a fair and open discussion there." That seems to me to be a pretty subjective writeoff. We're having a fair and open discussion right now. Sure it's more comfortable to be in a forum where everyone is preaching to the choir, but that doesn't mean that a forum where people have real and sometimes incompatible disagreements makes it impossible to have honest discussion there.

Which one? That because it exists in our scene, it's part-and-parcel? I'm sorry, I don't think I can agree with you on that and I've explained why in earlier parts of that thread.

As to certain threads you mentioned on GBB, did you actually read the "best ass contest" thread? There were plenty of us that were pretty icked out by that and said so. As for the "joy of cuddling" thread.. yeah. I know. But I did point out in that thread that cuddling has nothing whatsoever to do with dancing, and I didn't start the damn thing. :P

Quoted from "Dr. Feelgood"
Ok Marcelo let's get a few things straight, shall we? You probably only remember spending that afternoon with me (and some others) at the Museum of Sex back in 2004 because I recently PM'd you about it to jog your memory. You didn't reply back to the PM, just like you barely acknowledged my existence that day.

I didn't reply to your PM because I was in bed for a long time with a major bacterial infection that I only just got over. Not because I'm trying to be snooty. As for not paying much attention to you in NYC, it's probably because I only knew one person in that group and stuck to them most of the time. It wasn't some concerted effort to marginalize you or ignore you. I'm sorry I wasn't more social, and I do genuinely feel bad about not responding to your PM - I planned to but then I was bedridden for a while.

Quote
You said that "I'm a nice enough guy on yehoodi..." I can't figure how you'd have formed any sort of an opinion towards me considering every overture I made, you returned with a blank stare. If you said more than 2 complete sentences to me that weekend (Y6A) or anything even accidentally resembling conversation... it would have been a miracle.

I said you're a nice enough guy on Yehoodi because you are - you're polite, your PM was nice and friendly, you make good arguments with interesting discussions. And in general I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. Most everyone I've met whom I've had issues with online has become a friend in real life - RubyMae and I argue CONSTANTLY on Yehoodi but we became fast friends in real life. That's how the internet is. It was just amazing to me that your tone could shift so wildly from one forum to another. The tone you have in this post is much more like your tone on the GGB thread.

Quote
Neither, Keither, Redbean or myself have ever tried to paint some rosy ass picture about the blues scene. There are plenty of bad perceptions some justified and some not, but people have stated more than enough times that there is a majority trying to move forward and that there is no possible way to "police" every local scene. Nor is there reason to do so. ABSC - Acronym for Anti - Blues - Superior - Crowd. Not blues haters, as there is most certainly a difference. And yes, it's an opinion...one that I coupled in conversation regarding how that earlier discussion reminded me about how blacks in the mid 60's always seemed to be in this position - how it felt to always have to be "on guard" with their behavior, and how as soon as one person (a representative) of that group did something wrong - we all felt it. Not Keither, nor anyone else there on GBB could dispute that with me. Why? Because it's a feeling...a perception. And not a good one. They could ask me about it (and some did) but they couldn't really tell me that I'm wrong could they, since they have no idea of the feeling that I'm speaking about. And I would venture that neither can you.

You're entitled to your feelings, I've said that from the very beginning. I have no problem with people having opinions and making them known. I just felt a large amount of "our scene is more tolerant and open minded than yours" from a lot of the blues dancing advocates, including yourself. You yourself said to Swifty in the GGB thread that GGB would have more "give and take" than Yehoodi and be a much more open place for discussion. And that was after you started labelling all of us with the ABSC acronym.

I assume from your post you disagree with my reading, and that's fine. I certainly disagree that I feel superior to blues dancers (on the contrary, my dancing is probably quite inferior to them), but you have that opinion, so I'm gonna have mine. And like your opinion of me that's based on your personal experience and reading of the conversations and events you've been to, my opinion is based on my reading of the conversations and events I've been to. I have no problem with two people having the same information and coming to different conclusions.

But come on - comparing blues dancers to blacks in the 60's? That's just insane. And the air of superiority about your opinions that you're putting on, both about me as a person and blues dancers as a group is amazing considering you're the one calling me part of the "Superior Crowd." I haven't said anything about me being a better person or a better dancer or anything, but you're making all kinds of judgments about me and others, to the point where you're willing to bring up blacks in the 60's to make your point. You've done that on GGB before, and no one corrects you because none of the white people you're talking to want to touch that with a 40 foot pole. And understandably so. A comparison like that is really what makes honest discussion impossible. And somehow GGB is supposed to be more open and inclusive to discussion than Yehoodi?

Quoted from "redbean"
Which one? That because it exists in our scene, it's part-and-parcel? I'm sorry, I don't think I can agree with you on that and I've explained why in earlier parts of that thread. As to certain threads you mentioned on GBB, did you actually read the "best ass contest" thread? There were plenty of us that were pretty icked out by that and said so. As for the "joy of cuddling" thread.. yeah. I know. But I did point out in that thread that cuddling has nothing whatsoever to do with dancing, and I didn't start the damn thing. :P

No one said you did. But I'm just explaining how an outsider might come to a reasonable conclusion based on the data provided.

We can totally agree to disagree about whether blues dancing has lots of creepy sexiness in it or not, I don't really care. I just wanted to pierce the illusion that somehow the blues scene was strawberries and cream and the lindy scene is the oppressive mean regime. I think we're all satisfied on that point, and I feel you've taken that into account.

Forgive me if I misunderstand you, Marcelo, but it seems as though you're saying that use of sexual humor, double meaning or references to cuddling on a forum where blues dancers hang out could be construed as "this is how we dance, too". I don't think I follow your logic.

Because if that is indeed the case, then I imagine Beckto must dance lindy bent over and spreading her butt cheeks. :P

Insane???

How so? As I stated in the first place when I wrote it, it is a perception. And I didn't expect you or too many others to get it, Marcelo. But you can't say I'm out of bounds with the analogy since you don't understand it to begin with.

Not to beat this into the ground...BUT...

Look, you don't owe me any sort of explanation about your lack of a reply to my PM. And as far as Y6A is concerned, the funny thing is I made such an attempt to converse because I thought you didn't know anyone EXCEPT Amy Winn - who wasn't there yet.

For the record, I was told that you didn't speak to me because I wasn't a cute girl that you wanted to screw. Now, whether that was true or not I didn't know and I didn't care...still don't...LOL. But if I blocked you in any way with my conversation then it it I who should apologize.

I didn't label ALL of anyone - nor am I a different person from post to post/forum to forum. I welcomed Swifty immediately after realizing his presence and then tried to respond to his queries - though that was very difficult since he had to contend with questions from nearly everyone.

I meant exactly what I said then, and exactly what I said now.

Yes, many opinions have already been formed and it wasn't "That last thread" that started them. You act as if the beginning of this thread is the first time anyone's said anything negative about blues - it isn't. And that's ok, but don't be defensive (as I said to Swifty) because someone gets tired of reading it after 6 years.

The lindy scene isn't oppressive any more than the blues scene is all strawberries and cream. There are just some louder voices that need be tuned out on occasion (people are welcome to include me there if that's the idea).

GBB is a much smaller forum/community (fact) and it is more inviting in ways whether you wish to believe it or not.

Btw - I'd be more inclined to believe you saying I'm a dick on GBB if you'd said I'm opinionated about the music. But that's another opinion and perception that you're quite welcome to...

Wow Dr. Feelgood... way to make this discussion incredibly personal. And not about yourself.

If I were Marcelo, I'd be pissed at you for all the BS you're dragging into the public arena.

Glad we've never "met." I'd be afraid what you'd say about me online.

to redbean:

I understand what you're saying, and perhaps the examples I've found aren't perfect. In looking for examples I tried to find quick hits that would make my point, and I could have looked harder. I still think that for all the talk of how serious and academic and not sexual blues dancing has become, there's enough in the culture - in how people talk about blues dances and events they've been to, in the jokes people make, in the way people behave, to suggest otherwise. My examples may not be perfect, but I've seen enough people both in real life and on forums, people who nowadays share your opinion but used to be the chief blues humpers not so long ago. I don't think anyone is lying or is that dense as to not see the forest for the trees, and maybe with a massive study of The Blues Scene As A Whole I'll change my mind, but I don't think it's unreasonable of me to at least consider the idea that blues dancing is how Swifty, et al. say it is. It may not all be like that, and the leaders in the scene may not wish for it to be like that, but Swifty's point earlier in this thread about what is representative of the scene resonates very strongly with me.

Especially because there were similar debates about Hollywood Style, groove dancing, etc. in years past, debates in which the minority opinion was desperate to try to change their image, even though the image itself had merit. Even though the staunchest supporters of those styles defended it to the death, that didn't change the overall picture of what was.

Whatever though, because we're not going to agree on what blues dancing is or isn't. We look at the same data and see different things, and that's fine. For what it's worth, I do understand and appreciate your desire to defend your scene, even if I disagree with your conclusions. :)

Beckto - The feeling...as they say may be mutual. I'e heard quite a bit about you and through it all - I keep hearing - "although...she's hot".

Obviously I've conversed with men. But we've never met and probably aren't likely to. It doesn't much matter though does it? I doubt we'd talk too much..at least that's the feeling I get in general.

Of what I've mentioned, Marcelo can be pissed with me if he wants to as it's up to him. I stated exactly what I was told - I even heard that this year. But I took that with a grain of salt since I don't know the guy, but I probably should have told that to him 4 years ago so he'd know what's being said.

Quoted from "Dr. Feelgood"
Beckto - The feeling...as they say may be mutual. I'e heard quite a bit about you and through it all - I keep hearing - "although...she's hot". Obviously I've conversed with men. But we've never met and probably aren't likely to. It doesn't much matter though does it? I doubt we'd talk too much..at least that's the feeling I get in general.

To quote Marcelo (and maybe the only time since we NEVER agree on anything):

Quote
I'm just wondering why you're even bringing it up? It has ZERO relevance to the discussion.

What does what you've heard about me have anything to do with the conversation at hand? I don't care if they say I'm hot or butt ugly or if I have a tail and a stinky Yaris.

My point is why are YOU bringing personal stuff to the table? You're the only one doing it. Is it easier to attack/expose the person than the issue?

<img src="http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l223/HummBob/towlie2.jpg"></img>

That's what happens when you spend too much time in Tangoland, Phlurg. ;)

Coward? Hardly.

Last time this will be said - You could have diffused that whole thing by brushing it off but you chose a different direction. I submit that if we knew each other you WOULD have because you'd have just laughed it off or had some other similar remark - but we DON'T. That's not a cry to wish things were different, or referencing anything - it's FACT.

So let's let that go, shall we?

The topic discussion here (there are many) lately seemed to be circular but about ending with:

REDBEAN -

I'll add that I'd also like to see people from one scene held to the same standards as the other, especially when so many of us are involved heavily in both. I may be an idealist in that respect, but then you did accuse me of holding fairy tale notions.

As I've said before, I realize there are some who have and who continue to give blues dance a bad name. But in my estimation, it doesn't mean that everyone, or even a majority of blues dancers, engage in those behaviors.

But then I can't remember how many times I've made that same argument on this very thread and really, it doesn't seem to get me anywhere.

AND

MARCELO

Whatever though, because we're not going to agree on what blues dancing is or isn't. We look at the same data and see different things, and that's fine. For what it's worth, I do understand and appreciate your desire to defend your scene, even if I disagree with your conclusions.

This is a topic that really should have run it's course by now. If this hasn't been a strong enough display I don't know what is. I understand why it has "legs" but at the same time I don't.

Quoted from "BluesForCP"
I'm going to be sad when this thread is locked and there's a mysterious "check your pm's" post from Eff...

BluesForCP, I don't know why you have anything to say about this with all the people I know who have said this and that about you. The rumors are everywhere, so you have no ground to stand on, missy. So, you better just step off. I heard like 6 months ago that your Yaris is "stinky" and that it is so big it can fit like 5 people in there. So, you don't need to be all up postin here on Yehoodi if that's the case. I mean, it's not a big deal, and all, and I don't really care, but it is what it is. I stated exactly what I was told about you. But I did take it with a grain of salt. But I DID hear it.