Um... hate to say it again, but I'll side with MarCHElo:

There's a difference between sarcasm and condescension vs personal attacks or bringing up irrelevant rumor specific to the person in the argument.

The former is shizzy, but still ok, the latter is shizzy and not ok.

Marcelo, did it ever occur to you that this whole thing with the good Doctor started when you called him a dick? :P

Quoted from "Dr. Feelgood"
Is there more? If so, why not PM me and any perceived beefs will certainly either come to light or disappear - you can make that decision whenever you choose.

Ehn, I've got nothing else to say really. I don't have anything against you, it's just the Internet. :)

On the other hand, someone who hasn't contributed to this discussion chiming in just to offer their sage advice which amounts to scolding me, I'm gonna contest that, even if the original issue is over.

chocolate anybody?

now marcelo can have the same opinion of the good Doctor on both Yehoodi and GBB. whew!, glad that's settled.

anybody want to get back to snarking about ... i mean discussing the blues scene vs the ABSC (or existence thereof)?

do you consider that the college-age, arm-yanking, zoot-suit-wearing, rock-stepping-from-here-to-timbuktu east coast dancers are representative of the lindy scene (or form a portion of the lindy scene)? 'cause they show up at a lot of lindy events in my region, and they dance to lindy music, and technically, they are doing a dummed-down version of lindy.

we don't like to call that lindy because it's bad dancing, and it isn't representative of what the lindy hop scene does. so why should dry-humping to blues music be considered blues dancing or representative of even a portion of the blues scene just because some people choose to do it at blues events or in blues rooms or wherever?

Quoted from "redbean"

Quoted from "seldemer"
do you consider that the college-age, arm-yanking, zoot-suit-wearing, rock-stepping-from-here-to-timbuktu east coast dancers are representative of the lindy scene (or form a portion of the lindy scene)? 'cause they show up at a lot of lindy events in my region, and they dance to lindy music, and technically, they are doing a dummed-down version of lindy. we don't like to call that lindy because it's bad dancing, and it isn't representative of what the lindy hop scene does. so why should dry-humping to blues music be considered blues dancing or representative of even a portion of the blues scene just because some people choose to do it at blues events or in blues rooms or wherever?

I like you. :)

I love you!

Oh, I don't "blues dance". I'd love to blues dance with you, though. :-P

Marcelo, it felt like I was scolding you? Wow, didn't intend that, sorry.

However, I'm going to stand by my statement that the general tone you take with people is one that is confrontational and tends to rub people the wrong way. Pointing out that you've had civil conversations in this thread doesn't change that ... come on, you and I have butted heads before and so I think I can say that I'm coming from a place of experience here.

I'm not saying "you started it" nor am I saying it's "your fault" nor am I trying to "nanny" you. All I'm doing is making an evaluation of your tone. You're the one putting confrontational words and blame into my mouth.

And btw, I've talked to Steven recently about types of tone when posting ... 'course we have had the luxury of doing such things face to face. You're making an assumption about things that's not quite accurate.

Quoted from "seldemer"
do you consider that the college-age, arm-yanking, zoot-suit-wearing, rock-stepping-from-here-to-timbuktu east coast dancers are representative of the lindy scene (or form a portion of the lindy scene)? 'cause they show up at a lot of lindy events in my region, and they dance to lindy music, and technically, they are doing a dummed-down version of lindy. we don't like to call that lindy because it's bad dancing, and it isn't representative of what the lindy hop scene does. so why should dry-humping to blues music be considered blues dancing or representative of even a portion of the blues scene just because some people choose to do it at blues events or in blues rooms or wherever?

Quoted from "Marcelo, earlier in this thread,"
Back when neoswing was huge you'd hear all the lindy hoppers saying that zoot suits and BBVD weren't "representative" of the swing community either, and they were wrong then because it WAS representative and real lindy hoppers were a minority. They managed to change the representation enough to make themselves right over time, though.

Perhaps in your neck of the woods that's still not the case, in which case I would be fine arguing that those east coasters are representative of your swing community. Whether or not it's lindy is a different argument, but they certainly belong in the general realm of "swing dancing," much like the humpers might belong in the general realm of "blues dancing" even if they're not doing the same steps.

Maybe the answer is in the terms you're using. Are they part of the "lindy scene?" Probably not. Are they part of the "swing dancing scene?" Hell yes.

As Damon has told us many times over the years, the term "Blues dancing" is more like the term "Swing dancing" than "Lindy Hop." Lindy Hop is a subset of swing dancing, as is Balboa, as is east coast zoot suited stuff. Similarly, Damon's "jookin" is part of blues dancing, as is "Slow Drag" or whatever other historical dances you have, as is the slow humpy stuff.

These categories are broad enough to allow for a range of different approaches to the term.

points taken.

even if they are part of the blues scene collective umbrella notion because all they need to do is show up (which means the janitor is also part of the blues scene), they aren't representative of the national blues scene or national blues events. i think that's the point a lot of people have been trying to get across...just because those people exist and they show up at blues dance events doesn't mean that the whole scene should be represented by their bad dancing practices.

as regards when "blues dancers" outnumber the blues dancers: that might be true. maybe in that case, "blues dancing" is representative of that particular, local scene. i often only dance a couple of times at the recurring blues house parties in my area because it's what i call the body roll puppet show (BRPS, for you acronym enthusiasts). eew, no thanks! but you're not going to find that sort of ratio to be the case at any significant event.

Quoted from "seldemer"
as regards when "blues dancers" outnumber the blues dancers: that might be true. maybe in that case, "blues dancing" is representative of that particular, local scene. i often only dance a couple of times at the recurring blues house parties in my area because it's what i call the body roll puppet show (BRPS, for you acronym enthusiasts). eew, no thanks! but you're not going to find that sort of ratio to be the case at any significant event.

So? Maybe whether or not folks attend "significant events" is your criteria for how to measure the representation of blues dancers, but I think that writing off the BRPS folks because they don't attend "significant events" leaves out a heck of a lot of people from the sample. I wouldn't limit the sample size of the lindy hop community to workshops, exchanges, and "significant events" either.

Especially because "significant event" is an extremely subjective term. What makes an event significant? Who decides that? Why is a once-in-a-year event more significant than a weekly dance? Wouldn't the people who go to the dance week in and week out be at least as representative of a scene as the people who spend all their time travelling and workshopping?

That one post made more sense than anything else on this entire thread.

When an outsider looks in, whatever they see is what gets represented. If you're lucky, they'll see your group at its best. More often than not, they'll see the status quo. Considering the best of any group are, by definition, a small and elite group, most of what people will see is bad dancing. You can't expect anything else.

But while that bad dancing may be representative of the scene, in this case it isn't representative of the dance. Because no, Marcelo, the slow humpy stuff doesn't fall under the blues dance umbrella, as much as some people would like it to.

Granted, if a person looks at the scene and sees a whole lot of people doing slow humpy stuff at so-called blues dances, it's easy to see how they might get confused. It's also easy to see why the actual blues dancers might be eager to stand at the door and insist to every passer-by that the people inside don't represent their dance. Trouble is, that cycle's not getting anyone anywhere.

There's nothing we can do to get rid of the slow humpy dancers. The only thing we can do is raise the profile and credibility of our own dancing and hope that people start paying more attention to that than anything else. That's why DC can have flailing, zoot-suit-wearing ECS dancers show up at their events and still be considered a top-notch lindy hop scene. Everyone's too busy being awe-struck by Naomi and Nina and Skye and Andy to care about the people doing rock-steps-of-death in the back corner. And the more positive role models there are in the scene, the more people will be drawn into that. DC doesn't just host an obscene number of best-in-class dancers... they also have a very solid group of lindy hoppers as their core. In no small part, I'm sure, due to the fact that they have easy access to some of the best instruction and social dancing in the world.

But it wasn't that long ago that the world could legitimately claim that Zoot Suit Riot was representative of the swing scene. A large percentage of the world's population still thinks that's what it is. The difference is that now we can point to a whole bunch of YouTube clips that'll change their minds in a matter of minutes. Until the Blues scene is ready to do that, we're better off focusing on ourselves than we are on trying to convince others by force.

Quote
But while that bad dancing may be representative of the scene, in this case it isn't representative of the dance. Because no, Marcelo, the slow humpy stuff doesn't fall under the blues dance umbrella, as much as some people would like it to.

Why not? About 5 or 6 years ago a large group of lindy hoppers took to dancing slower tempos, modernizing their movements, and changing the style of music to a more downtempo relaxed feel, and the vintage-oriented lindy hoppers were furious - "that is not lindy hop," they said. The new modern dancers, labelled "groove dancers" (a name they didn't like much), insisted that their style of dancing be included under the umbrella of lindy hop.

And you know what, they had a point. The footwork was the same, there were enough people from both sides of the debate crossing over, the principles of the dancing were still very similar, and in the end the consensus was that they were at least dancing lindy hop, even if it wasn't strictly vintage. Over time they won their legitimacy.

As long as the humpers (I only use that name for lack of a better term) choose to associate themselves with the name "blues dancing," I don't see why they're not at least partially representative of the dance. Just like the vintage lindy hoppers couldn't define the groove dancers out of "lindy hop," I'm not so sure the dedicated blues dancers can define the humpers out of "blues dancing." It might be even more difficult, because "blues dancing," as Damon has said, is a broad term like "swing dancing."

So while you can absolutely say that the humpers aren't "jookin" or whatever, you can't really deny that the humpers are "blues dancing," just like you can't really deny that the neoswingers and zoot suit riot kids are "swing dancing." The most you'll be able to say is "these groups do two different dances, both of which are called blues dancing" - and even then there's enough crossover between people in these scenes and enough musical and stylistic similarities that most people are gonna lump them all together anyways.

I only point all this out to show that this is a historical cycle. The lindyhoppers went through it a few years ago, the Blues dancers are no different. There are still vintage dance enthusiasts who want strict definitions and people who don't want anyone defining their dancing for them, yet making a mockery of the dance as a whole because of it. To me the most interesting thing about it is that a LOT of the people who argue against the humpers are former (or even current) groove dancers who were once on the opposite side of the argument - that dance shouldn't have strict definitions, that creativity and evolution of dance are unavoidable, and that people who try to strictly define dances to a certain time period or aesthetic are stifling creativity and musicality. They were once told "You're not lindy hopping," and now they're turned around, ready to tell others that "you're not blues dancing."

And hey, people change, that's how it is in life, I don't find too much fault with it, but the irony of the situation is worth noting at least.

Quoted from "Swingboy"
[...I wonder if the Salsa scene has imploded over all the scandalous sexual and stylistic dance behavior over there...? No, but I bet there are more than a few people arguing about it online somewhere...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salsa_(dance)