Where have I put words in your mouth? I'm using your direct quote. If you're gonna say that it's about "It's about disqualifying people who aren't willing to back their internet posts with some real life gumption", I'm gonna dispute that. No one should have to supplement their opinions on a message board with video of them dancing in order to avoid being "disqualified". You should attack the argument, not the messenger.

I'm not interested in a pissing contest about who's the more experienced blues dancer. I'm interested in the abstract argument you're making - that in order to qualify to say anything about blues dancing, you have to be willing to dance for everyone to show you've got gumption. That's ridiculous. No one asked you to prove yourself when you started posting on Yehoodi about Lindy Hop. No one asked you for video when you signed onto GGB.

To petalscutiegirl:

I remember a few years ago when you were one of the people defending yourself against lindy hop elitists for referring to your dancing as "wiggly hop" or "groove dancing." And when you responded, I remember those folks making comments about how insecure groove dancers are and how touchy you must be. Now here you are, making the same arguments those lindy hoppers made about you. It makes me sad. And I'm not saying that sarcastically.

Quoted from "Marcelo"
To petalscutiegirl: I remember a few years ago when you were one of the people defending yourself against lindy hop elitists for referring to your dancing as "wiggly hop" or "groove dancing." And when you responded, I remember those folks making comments about how insecure groove dancers are and how touchy you must be. Now here you are, making the same arguments those lindy hoppers made about you. It makes me sad. And I'm not saying that sarcastically.

I don't think I ever got into those arguments, most of my Yehoodi time was spent talking about the events I went to, but it you want to find some of those posts, go ahead.

And really, in this situation, the tables have turned. Back then, I'd been dancing for maybe a year and mostly in Tampa which (most will admit) has little to no dance instruction. In this case, you're making an argument about a dance you a) don't do b) don't go to events for and c) can't even define. I mean, really Marcelo, if you'd ever been to more than a late night blues room at a lindy event most of us would be more willing to listen to your arguments about the dance that we do at least once a week every week. Your telling us that you know more about our scene and what it needs than we do is about as realistic as me telling you that you don't know sh t about balboa. I don't do balboa, I don't go to bal events, I don't take bal classes, so who the hell am I to tell you about balboa? You don't do blues, you don't go to blues events, you don't take blues classes, you don't go to blues dances, you don't know sh t about blues. So really, you're doing little more than speaking out of your a about something you know nothing about. You're making yourself look like a tool, and we're all sitting over here laughing.

Quote
You say I'm wrong, and either state or imply that I am not qualified to make the statements that I do.

Quote me ANYWHERE where I have EVEN ONCE stated or implied that you are not qualified to make the statements that you do. Seriously. My whole point was that you and I have different experiences and have come to different conclusions based on those experiences. I have been arguing for an "agree to disagree" conclusion for freaking ever. The only time I ever got confrontational is when you questioned my qualifications, and not really because I wanted to defend myself, but because I feel it's an inappropriate attack.

On the contrary, you have outright stated that when I see people blues dancing, I'm too inexperienced to know what I'm seeing with my own eyes, and that I am incapable of placing it in the right context because of my inexperience. You're the one (and Keither and petals) who insist that I don't know what I'm talking about, that I have no experience or knowledge in which to ground my opinion. If you're gonna accuse me of questioning your qualifications unfairly, then you should stop doing it to me.

All I did was "simply provide an alternate experience," as you said. If you disagree with it, that's cool. It doesn't make me a "tool" to disagree with you. Instead you overreacted, and now you're accusing me of questioning your qualifications, which is something I never did, and is something I argued against you doing to others.

I get confrontational about stuff like Keither's video challenge and the idea that one must "qualify" themselves in order to raise an objection or opinion to anything you say. That's when I get upset. I don't really care if you're right or wrong, like I said, I'm more than capable of knowing when I need to change my worldview, and I said even earlier that I would like nothing more than for blues dancers to be hump-free. But those are arguments about the dance that people can have reasonable disagreements on. Those are not personal attacks and challenges about who's a tool, who's better than who, who's more experienced than who - attacks that only you guys have made here. When I defend my opinion, I'm defending the idea that I'm more than capable of seeing with my own eyes and processing the information. And that's a reasonable defense. I'm sorry that you disagree with it.

Look, I'm a jaded ex-dancer for the most part, and I'm more than willing to admit (as I have on this very thread) that I could be wrong and my opinion is open to change. See my conversation with redbean on page 20-ish for those statements. Why is me posting my jaded ex-dancer's opinion on this thread so poisonous to you? If I really don't know what I'm talking about, why even bother with me?

Seriously, look back to when you jumped in on Page 26 to respond to me. Never once did I say "you're wrong," or imply anything other than "I have a different opinion than you do." I disagreed, but I didn't try to contend that your opinion wasn't valid, merely that I didn't share it. I NEVER ONCE questioned your dancing, your qualifications, your knowledge, or even whether or not you were right based on the info you had. All I said was that from my neck of the woods it was a different story. In fact, my very first words responding to you were "It's all perspective."

Bless your heart, Marcelo. Bless your heart.

Can I see a video clip of you using this handle online in 1989?

I must say I find it rather amusing that as low of an art form as blues dancing truely is, it's ironic how strongly the EBC (Evangelical Blues Crowd) insist it's a higher art then any other, so much so that no one can comprehend what it is they are looking at without years or decades of extensive study and experience.

Hogwash.

Blues is a great, it's fun, it's relaxing, it's exciting, it's something I truly enjoy. A major reason I enjoy it is expressly because it isn't a pretentious fine art form. So it saddens me that the EBC, the "leaders" of the blues community, try so hard to artificially portray it as a hugely complex and highly pretentious art form. As if somehow Blues can't be taken seriously if it isn't a high art. Too many people have their entire self identity and self worth bound up in how "legitimate" Blues dancing is perceived. It's pathetic and sad and frankly pushes me away from the dance. I have to keep actively reminding myself that these dozen or so people don't represent the community at large, much to their distress.

Blues won't find respect by attempting to portray it as something it is not.

Quoted from "Zenin"
I've used the moniker "Zenin" online since 1989. I think my dibbs beats yours.

I've been using the "Zev" moniker since 1962.

Quoted from "petalscutiegirl Back on page 2"

Quoted from "Swifty"

Quoted from "petalscutiegirl"
This event is not representative of the blues community at large.

What i don't understand is that i see quotes like this all of the time, when in my experience it's just not true. What I think would be true is saying "This event is not WHAT WE WANT TO BE representative of the blues community at large." But really, I see more stuff like this than I do of "good" blues dancing on the very rare occasion I go to something with "Blues" in the name.

I would argue you're going to the wrong events. For comparison, if all I knew of lindy was going to events like LOLX and ASSLX, I'd think lindy scenes were pretty ridiculous. Heck, blues hardly invented such ideas as "dirty boy jams" and lapdance contests. Both lindy and blues scenes are made up of a large number of socially awkward folks who never got to be frat boys or sorority girls and are trying to get in all that immature, silly partying now that they've found somewhere they have a modicum of social respect. Lindy has had enough time to really make these influences less main stream and more tertiary. The blues dance scene as a whole is still much newer and (unfortunately) still has a large number of promoters and instructors who are in the scene primarily to engage in grope fests and pick up parites. That's not true of every scene, nor is it true of the most successful blues dance events. If you look at the events with the biggest numbers, the highest incomes, etc, they're not these kind of events. If you look at the people who are really leading the blues scene, with a few notable exceptions they're not that kind of people. Trust me when I say that events like this upset and disgust me MORE than most of you simply because I know what blues dancing really is and really should be. Events like this make it harder for real, legitimate blues dancing to thrive because they (rightly) put off people who don't need dancing to interact with members of the opposite sex.

None of the blues promoters/dancers here have denied that there are gropers.

We have denied that humping is blues dancing. We have denied that an event labeling itself as an erotic party is representative of our scene. We have asserted that those who say that we don't understand what our scene is really like are not qualified to make that assessment (either they very rarely go to blues events, as Swifty admitted above, or really never do, as in Marcelo's case).

Overall, our message started out with "this isn't what blues dancing is, if you want to see what it really is check out this event or this teacher." Most of the nastiness started from there with certain individuals trying to tell us how to run our scene or that we don't know what our scene is or that we're not doing enough to make our scene good enough for them.

The funniest part to me is that any of us are putting this much energy into a thread full of people who will probably never attend a blues dancing event. Why we care so much about what a few blowhards on Yehoodi think is beyond me.

Quoted from "dormouse"
Of which you feel justifiably allow you to paint an entire scene despite knowing that you have at best been on the fringe. Despite any of the numerous people who disagree or multitude of events you have not been to. This implies that you feel more qualified to pass judgment on the dance, dancers, and scene.

No it doesn't. That's a HUGE reach. I'm very literal with what I say. In fact I said, and you can quote me:

Quoted from "Marcelo"
No one is dismissing Damon's knowledge or dance ability.

Quoted from "Marcelo"
You can tell me all about your historical research and educate me about how amazing blues dancing can be, and heck, I'll grant you all that.

Which is the exact opposite of what you think I've implied. I don't have to agree with you in order to validate your experience. Maybe Zenin took it further than that and actually directly questioned your experience and its value. I'd take up this argument with him, because my posting record on this is crystal clear.

And with regards to whether or not my statement that my mind is open to change "rings true" (as if I care enough about this to lie to you about my position), I would say that my position is like Shana's - I can accept all the things you say about the dance and still believe that what I'm talking about actually exists. That doesn't mean I'm closed minded. On the contrary, if I were closed minded I'd be all "no, all I see is X, therefore X is all that exists." and I haven't done that at all.

Quoted from "dormouse"
I said things that showed I questioned your judgment and experience, but I never SAID I questioned you judgment or experience. Sorry, I'm not playing that game.

Really? Because you said all these things:

Quoted from "dormouse"
Yet, you and several others seem to believe that their very limited experience trumps that of those who have been doing this for years (and in some cases decades). Now experience is not the end all be all of deciding who is right, but when the blues dancers point out things to be considered, rather than objectivity, it is met with dismissal, "that is not what I've seen, done etc." Lack of judgment and critical thinking ends any chance of a civil conversation.

Here you're directly saying I have a lack of judgment here. And a lack of critical thinking, which is based on my lack of experience.

Quoted from "dormouse"
Your camp says something. My camp points out the flaws in the statement. Your camp says there are no flaws you can't deny what we've seen/experienced. We say the flaw is there and your lack of knowledge is why you can't see the flaw. Your camp then assumes we are defensive and attacking the arguer rather than the argument, when in fact pointing out your ignorance on the subject is not an attack but pretty much a verifiable truth.

Again, here you are directly attacking my/our lack of knowledge and our ingorance, going so far as to call it a "verifiable truth." If that isn't direct, I don't know what is.

Quoted from "dormouse"
Since when is pointing out someone's ignorance and truthful lack of experience a personal attack?

Here you are actually defending your direct attacks on my experience and judgment, making the point that it's not a personal attack. Which is fine, I can grant you that, but it's still you saying that I lack experience. Directly.

You're saying that not only have we attacked your credentials, you haven't directly attacked ours. The exact opposite is true.

If you want to continue to think I'm wrong on the subject of blues dancing, it's no skin off my back. Maybe I am. But I wanted to make sure it's crystal clear - I have NEVER attacked your experience, directly or indirectly. On the contrary, I've acknowledged it. And while you may claim that you've never directly said I lacked experience or judgment, maybe these quotes will show why I perceived you attacking me directly.

Maybe it wasn't what you meant to say when you said those things and I'm reaching, that's fine. It's all perspective. You're a stand-up guy, I respect you, I'm sure the next time I see you I'll be delighted to buy you and your wife a drink and apologize for my tone and put it all behind us.

Quoted from "redbean"

Quoted from "Shanabanana"
Not sure it s worth the input at this point, but why not. whole bunch of really great points

I wasn't gonna post in this thread again, but I had to break it for your post. Because I agree 100 with absolutely everything you just said.

Agreed. Golf clap for Shana. Vote the humpers out of office!!!

For all those latecomers who missed the last 6.02x10 23 or so pages of absolutely riveting excitement but are too lazy to read through it all:

Quote
someone: heh heh. BOOBS. marcelo: there are a lot of humpers in blues dancing! dormouse: no there aren't! marcelo: just look at a lot of blues dances! dormouse: well, those aren't REAL blues dances, and they're not REAL blues dancers. petalscutiegirl: what he said. beckto: you mean they're "BLUES" dances and not BLUES dances and they're "BLUES" dancers and not BLUES dancers? marcelo: Well, it's doesn't mean they don't exist. lindychef: you're a bully! marcelo: no I'm not! everyone else on yehoodi: yes you are! marcelo: no I'm not! everyone else on yehoodi's mothers: yes you are! marcelo: no I'm not! dormouse: what experience do you have that makes you say what you say? petalscutiegirl: what he said. marcelo: i... go to blues dances? you can't prove that humpers aren't part of the blues community. dormouse: yes I can. petalscutiegirl: what he said. marcelo: that doesn't prove anything! dormouse: well I'm way more qualified than you are, so you're ignorant, inexperienced, AND wrong. petalscutiegirl: what he said. Hang on I need to split off to address side arguments. marcelo: no I'm not! dormouse: yes you are! etc. etc. some third party: throws ad verecundium flag i'm sorry dormouse, but your qualifications don't count in your argument. dormouse: yes they do! some other third party: no they don't! dormouse: yes they do! yet another third party and his or her mother: no they don't! dormouse: yes they do! keither: some absolutely random off-topic proposal that makes more sense than the rest of the arguments. marcelo: you're wrong. keither: ???? petalscutiegirl: you're a bully. marcelo: no I'm not! repeat ad nauseum

Thankfully, by reading this post, you have gained the insight of 28 pages of information, freeing up the rest of that extra time on your hands that you had too much of anyways (myself very much included).

PS Just a side note that I have personally met (except for beckto) and like everyone mentioned in the above post.

Quoted from "tornredcarpet"
For all those latecomers who missed the last 6.02x10 23 or so pages of absolutely riveting excitement but are too lazy to read through it all:

I always appreciate a gratuitous drop of Avogadro's number.

arthur

Maybe there is enough interest to start a forum for blues dancing. BluHoodi?

www.gargleblasterblues.com :)