Quoted from "pill_popper"

Quoted from "Zenin"
Spot on Chivalrous.

Do you see this in Los Angeles as well?

We have a couple strange exceptions like LindyGroove and Strutter's Ball, but generally speaking yes.

But I also have to agree with Marcelo; The normal turn over of trends had/has a huge effect as well.

On the plus side that turn over of trends...combined with dance geeks getting into vintage is starting to create a cool high-class (black tie) 20s/30s vintage scene (dress, dance, and music). It's very cool...I hope it sticks around for a while. ;-)

Quoted from "Dr. Feelgood"
Zenin said: (please note I see a huge distinction between sexual and creepy) Good point.

:o Thanks. That was unexpected.

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I don't think people (especially defending good blues) are trying to neuter/asexualize the dance. It's more to the point of saying that there is much more to it...than always bringing that to the forefront.

That may not be the message they are intending to send, but it is the message that's getting received. The way it's phrased more often then not sounds like an attack on and denial of sexuality in the dance. The message might be better received if it was presented as embracing the sensuality, training it to be more mature (vs creepy) and adding to that the other non-sensual aspects that you wish to promote.

It almost feels like sensual nature is only a big deal because a few vocal people are trying too hard to make it not be a big deal. Balboa had a similar problem when some instructors made a big deal about how being chest to chest shouldn't be a big deal...effectively it backfired as few thought much of it until the teachers wouldn't shut up about it. :-/

Dancing blue-footed booby?

Quoted from "dormouse"
Oh, I've got to find something else to read... I have a feeling this thread is going to suck me in to a whirlwind of negativity and conflict.

Don't fight it. Burn bridges! Let us know how you really feel!

arthur

Zenin said: Thanks. That was unexpected.

You're quite welcome!

I honestly never thought about something you just said before either:

That may not be the message they are intending to send, but it is the message that's getting received. The way it's phrased more often then not sounds like an attack on and denial of sexuality in the dance. The message might be better received if it was presented as embracing the sensuality, training it to be more mature (vs creepy) and adding to that the other non-sensual aspects that you wish to promote.

I just don't think much about the sensuality - I think that people tend to try to force it, examine it more than necessary. But that's me...

DJ, I'm not out to change your mind, feel free to maintain your ideas.

Nando - Thanks for the IQ mention! No, the idea of "Cheap Thrills" being a double meaning never crossed my mind...probably because I didn't care...LOL. I'd own up if I did, you know I'm pretty blunt/honest. Now that I look at it, it seems pretty funny to me. Oh well...

Seriously, I was running to CT/STLBX not to learn much about blues dancing, but to hear and experience the music. The double entendre of CT, the sensual idea of the dance wasn't apparent to me, especially because it was equal in it's lindy and blues.

On the bright side, only the vocal minority read Yehoodi anyway, so our defensiveness and preachiness and unintended asexuality will never actually reach the audience we hope so desperately to affect.

It might be worth noting that any response other than, "you are so right, we suck" can be construed as defensive when the initiating dialog is aggressive and hostile or worse, dismissive. Just sayin'.

Quoted from "Alligator"
That being said, congrats to everyone on both sides on giving them free national publicity. All you guys seem to agree it's appalling and disgusting, but guess what, they're probably not responding because they're loving the attention and maybe they'll get extra registrants for it. Maybe next year, they'll decide to top the name BOOBS just to get your rankles back up and drum up more Lindy press. If you're a "serious" blues dancer, then you probably wouldn't want to go to this event. If like Swifty, you refuse to ever go to a blues class or weekend, then the point is moot anyway.

Who's "appalled and disgusted?" I just think it's a silly name. There's nothing wrong with laughing at a silly name and what is, at least according to Swifty's video, an exceedingly silly dance.

Quoted from "DJLarkin"
If you're part of the blues scene, the burden is on YOU to change that opinion, if you dislike that particular take on it.

That's a fact that I don't deny, however, in order for that opinion to be changed, people can't just sit here and talk about it on Yehoodi. They have to go out and see what's out there, and not just some house party or small event, but a true sampling of all of the events in the community. I sometimes get the feeling that a lot of the defensiveness among the blues community comes from this place. I'm not denying anyone's experience, however I can't remember ever seeing (or hearing about) peeps like Marcelo, DJ and Swifty at a major blues event in recent years.

Look, I don't want to get into a pisisng contest over credentials. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and I'm not going to fault or attack anyone for it. I would just hope that people would come out and look at the scene as a whole, not pick on a small event whose organizers made an admittedly lame attempt at collegiate humor and blow it way out of proportion. And unfortunately, our tendencies towards confirmation bias make it so that one mistake will undo a mountain's worth of good work.

In the meantime, I'll just keep on doing all I can, which is run a quality event, and really that's all that matters to me nowadays.

In re: "laying a serious smackdown" All we can do is teach, teach well, run good events and hire people that we believe in. There is a strong subset out there of people whose philosophy we don't believe in, yet they lay claim to the same name "blues," as the rest of us. It's not like there's some certification of membership in the blues community and we can excommunicate them whenever we wish. Some people like them and don't care about what people on Yehoodi think ... they have a small but strong and self-reinforcing sub-community. It's actually come to be a bit of a divide within the blues community and something that is discussed frequently among blues organizers. Part of the response that you see from the blues proponents here comes from the frustration of dealing with that.

Finally, you put young teens and twentysomethings in a dimly lit room, and throw on some tango, hip hop, swing or blues, you're going to get the same end result. Why people get all up in arms when it happens to be blues music is amusing, though.

The people that dance well will dance well and have a good time doing it.

Quoted from "DJLarkin"

Quoted from "excess"

Quoted from "DJLarkin"
I lived, grew up and danced in San Francisco for 7 years, and was part of the original "Monday night blues" crew to go to Eli's Mile High club for blues dancing. I've actually only been in DC for 3 years, which is is only 1/3 of my dance career. However, both Swifty and I get plenty of travel in to dance events. We're well aware of what other scenes are like, and I'm especially familiar with the SF scene.

Make no mistake. DJ has mad street cred in the SF blues community. He pioneered the shirtless birthday jam after all. arthur

Hey, I'm willing to admit that I was part of the crowd that I now loathe. I was young, stupid, and grew out of it. I can't say the same for others.

I was right there with you buddy.

arthur

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I'm not denying anyone's experience, however I can't remember ever seeing (or hearing about) peeps like Marcelo, DJ and Swifty at a major blues event in recent years.

Martin, come on man. I don't call you out as not knowing whats going on in the Lindy Scene because I almost never see you at lindy events. Thats silly.

But, I've been to Blues events in SF and the DC area, Like mezjelly. I went to Swing'N'Soul which had a big blues crowd turnout, and there's a blues room at every. damn. event. I'll go to any local workshop with an instructor that I want to dance with, like Heidi or Amanda, if just to dance with them. Plus, I do have Youtube.

I think Youtube is the real key here. I've seen a lot of clips from events, that did not help the stigma of the blues scene in the slightest, moreso hurt it than anything.

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I would just hope that people would come out and look at the scene as a whole, not pick on a small event whose organizers made an admittedly lame attempt at collegiate humor and blow it way out of proportion. And unfortunately, our tendencies towards confirmation bias make it so that one mistake will undo a mountain's worth of good work.

Its hard to look at the scene as a whole, to be honest. It just looks like a big mess from the outside. When I look at an event, is it going to be a humpfest, or a good blues event? How do I tell? Even if its a "good" event, there's still plenty of those humpers in the corner, and they tend to draw a lot of attention.

What I took from the original post was that THESE are the people giving you a bad name. Get pissed, but do it at them. Create a way for me, the person who doesn't want to wade through a room of sweaty people grinding all night to find a decent dancer, to find the blues event that DOESNT have that. Print it in big bold letters. Otherwise, these people will continue to piggyback on the blues name, and pass their [bleep!] dancing off as legit.

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Finally, you put young teens and twentysomethings in a dimly lit room, and throw on some tango, hip hop, swing or blues, you're going to get the same end result. Why people get all up in arms when it happens to be blues music is amusing, though.

People get up in arms because its passed off as a legit partner dance by those people. Don't dress it up, call it for what it is (humping), and you'll see few objections.

Quoted from "Marcelo"

Quoted from "Alligator"
That being said, congrats to everyone on both sides on giving them free national publicity. All you guys seem to agree it's appalling and disgusting, but guess what, they're probably not responding because they're loving the attention and maybe they'll get extra registrants for it. Maybe next year, they'll decide to top the name BOOBS just to get your rankles back up and drum up more Lindy press. If you're a "serious" blues dancer, then you probably wouldn't want to go to this event. If like Swifty, you refuse to ever go to a blues class or weekend, then the point is moot anyway.

Who's "appalled and disgusted?" I just think it's a silly name. There's nothing wrong with laughing at a silly name and what is, at least according to Swifty's video, an exceedingly silly dance.

It is a silly name. Made sillier by the 5 plus pages going on based on that name. And if I was some kid in college over there, I'd think it's funny and cool.

Maybe people should stop thinking of it like it's some national event, and just see it for what it really is. Is it because there are some known names in the mix (even though I do agree with those who say they're not National instructors, again, for similar reasons that BOOBS is not a National event)

Quoted from "tommyd76"

Quoted from "DJLarkin"
Hey, I'm willing to admit that I was part of the crowd that I now loathe. I was young, stupid, and grew out of it. I can't say the same for others.

and much of this event in question based off of people just like you back then. I just think that the lindy scene as a whole is just getting older and they don't quite realise it yet. Blues has a lot of college students in it, and the Yehoodi lindy people are yelling for them to get off their lawn.. You are right though.. there are some that don't grow up and we really don't want to deal with them either, but I don't think many want to get into an all out fight with them yet.

I should point out, though, that it took people slapping me in the face with my behavior for it to change. I'm grateful for those who did it, and I feel its perfectly valid to continue the tradition of slapping down stupid and inappropriate behavior.

Knowing the social skills of college-age lindy hoppers, they probably won't end up getting many boobs, either.

ZING!

Quoted from "DJLarkin"
Martin, come on man. I don't call you out as not knowing whats going on in the Lindy Scene because I almost never see you at lindy events. Thats silly.

That would be silly if I was going around and talking about lindy events, which I'm not :)

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Its hard to look at the scene as a whole, to be honest. It just looks like a big mess from the outside. When I look at an event, is it going to be a humpfest, or a good blues event? How do I tell? Even if its a "good" event, there's still plenty of those humpers in the corner, and they tend to draw a lot of attention.

Like I said before, there's a struggle for identity in the scene, but there's no way to certify something as "blues kosher" or the like. If you do have a question of if an event would be worth your time, my best advice would be to ask someone whose opinion that you trust ...

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What I took from the original post was that THESE are the people giving you a bad name. Get pissed, but do it at them. Create a way for me, the person who doesn't want to wade through a room of sweaty people grinding all night to find a decent dancer, to find the blues event that DOESNT have that. Print it in big bold letters. Otherwise, these people will continue to piggyback on the blues name, and pass their [bleep!] dancing off as legit.

I'm not pissed ... I'm actually beyond being pissed at this sort of thing because it's just wasted energy. But there's a limited amount of quality out there and part of the problem is that there are many self-proclaimed instructors/DJs/organizers out there who perpetuate bad habits/techniques/attitudes.

It does me no good to yell at anyone and say, "You don't understand." It's why I laugh when some self-identified blues dancers got all up in arms when the Denver lindy hoppers came into town and cleaned up at a major blues comp - you might love calling yourself a blues dancer, but if you can't dance the dance, don't complain when someone comes in and does it better than you.

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People get up in arms because its passed off as a legit partner dance by those people. Don't dress it up, call it for what it is (humping), and you'll see few objections.

shrug I'm not someone calling it blues dancing :)

Quoted from "DJ Larkin"
People get up in arms because its passed off as a legit partner dance by those people. Don't dress it up, call it for what it is (humping), and you'll see few objections.

See, what's interesting is that if you're using Swifty's video as some sort of reference point (and that's fair, since this is the lady apparently teaching at the boob weekend), then I wouldn't call it humping - in fact, I'd call it a legit partner dance. A completely poncy, ridiculous-looking partner dance, but humping it ain't. It's more like Cirque du Soleil?

On a totally separate note, if you go on youtube and search for "blues dance," the first 7 results are various forms of blues dancing, and then result number 8 is this crazy man dressed in a wig and lingerie doing these insane gyrations, and her videos continue on the list, equally interspersed with the dancing videos.

I feel like it makes a thematical point, but I'm not sure what the point is.