What, posting a thread to bait emotional responses? I guess if a noob had wandered on and posted the same thread without knowing the history of these discussions (over and over and over again) on Yehoodi, I probably wouldn't hold it to that light.
But anyone who's been on this forum for any length of time should know exactly what type of responses they'll get when they post a thread like this. The title itself is snarky and inflammatory. I can't help but call "troll" in this instance.
Granted, Swifty is a regular poster, a friend of many, and not someone who I would consider to actually BE a forum troll. But with this specific thread, yes, I think it was trolling.
However... Those of us that are quick to defend do so mainly because we're tired of blues dancing, as a legitimate, authentic dance (group of dances) being painted in the same light as "blues dancing".
And the "logic" seems to be "well, this is what we see at these (long list of) events and these videos on youtube, so that is an authentic representation of what blues dancing is".
It just doesn't make any sense. At all.
Sure it does. People only judge what they're exposed to. It makes sense that if what a majority of the blues dancing they're exposed to is humpy crap, thats what they're going to assume blues dancing is. You can SAY thats not what it is, but when you don't see anything else, its hard to assume that what you're saying holds true.
Quoted from "redbean" There is a difference between blues dance and "blues dancing". In fact, it reminds me of a very, very popular thread here from a while back about "dancing 'the swing'". And the lindy hoppers were more than happy to jump on the videos that were posted and point out what was wrong with them and why they were an inaccurate representation of swing dance.
But God forbid the blues community be able to do the same.
Yes, there IS a difference. But, in the above example, you're not doing the same. You're attacking the people who are posting the videos, instead of the videos themselves. Metaphorically speaking. Attack the "blues dancers" who are giving you a bad name, and not the people who mock the "blues dancers". The target of your ire is misplaced, it should be on the people giving you a bad name.
Quoted from "redbean" I don't feel that it's too much to ask for people to acknowledge that there's been some name appropriation going on, that there is a difference, and that there are some of us out there actively trying to do something about it.
What you're doing, though, by arguing in these threads is just attaching yourselves TO the bad blues dancing, instead of distancing yourself like you should be doing. By getting defensive when "blues dancing" is attacked, you create an association that you're defending "blues dancing", when in reality you want to be distanced from it.
I mean, you're calling swifty a troll for ripping on something thats giving YOUR scene a bad name, instead of saying that its not blues, and that its silly and/or stupid. My response would have been. "Yes, its giving legitimate blues a bad name, and I wish they would stop doing it."
You see where the line becomes blurred to those on the other side of the fence?
Quoted from "tommyd76" There is sex in Blues, There is sex in rap, there is sex in polka, there is sex in opera, there is sex in square dancing (maybe) there is sex in tango and there is sex in swing. Why? Because dancing is about life/living and life can't go on till someone does the dirty.
Wait...what? What about like....women who have been circumcised? Or paraplegics? Their lives are over? No more living?!
Quoted from "redbean" What, posting a thread to bait emotional responses? I guess if a noob had wandered on and posted the same thread without knowing the history of these discussions (over and over and over again) on Yehoodi, I probably wouldn't hold it to that light.
But anyone who's been on this forum for any length of time should know exactly what type of responses they'll get when they post a thread like this. The title itself is snarky and inflammatory. I can't help but call "troll" in this instance.
Granted, Swifty is a regular poster, a friend of many, and not someone who I would consider to actually BE a forum troll. But with this specific thread, yes, I think it was trolling.
No, it was making fun of a silly and juvenile name. You can't make fun of an exchange's name anymore now if it's a blues exchange? You can't be snarky or inflammatory? The event was called BOOBS, for crying out loud! It had a lil boob logo! It was in pink! The breast cancer color! You don't think that event deserves a sound thrashing? Grow some thicker skin!
And besides, Swifty's disagreement is a legit one - he and others with is opinion have totally been able to hold their own on the thread. So how is that trolling?
That event deserves every damn piece of snark thrown at it. I'm amazed all you "real" blues dancers (for lack of a better term) aren't equally snarky. No one's attacking you. The proper response is to be snarky to the event that's ruining your good name.
Quoted from "Marcelo" That event deserves every damn piece of snark thrown at it. I'm amazed all you "real" blues dancers (for lack of a better term) aren't equally snarky. No one's attacking you. The proper response is to be snarky to the event that's ruining your good name.
Quoted from "Air" They must have felt left out without ASSLX. It's a shame when an event with the potential to be good gets ruined by a stupid acronym and overzealous organizers.
Does that count? ;)
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
People have been rubbin' up on each other on dance floors for far longer than the controversy around "blues dancing" has existed. Blues dancers didn't start it, nor are they likely to end it.
People are going to dance how they want to dance, to the music they want to dance to. People are going to look at how other people dance and think what they want to think.
If you want them to change, be they the dancers or the observers, hitting them over the head and yelling at them to get them to change does not work.
There is only one way to change things: Go out and dance. Go out and teach. Go out and DJ. Show them that what you do is better, cooler, more bad-ass or what-have-you. If your dancing is what you say it is, then you won't have any problems. It may take a while, but people will come around.
Oh, and while I think that the name is a bit sophomoric and perhaps unfortunate for my overall idea of what I think of Blues Dancing....but c'mon, it is kinda funny...I mean, they named the dance event BOOBS after all.
At the very least they've given us a reason to set the Yehoodi record for the number of times "BOOBS" in all caps appears in a single thread.
Will they deliver what they promise?
At my wife's suggestion, maybe Hooters can co-sponsor...?
People have been rubbin' up on each other on dance floors for far longer than the controversy around "blues dancing" has existed. Blues dancers didn't start it, nor are they likely to end it.
People are going to dance how they want to dance, to the music they want to dance to. People are going to look at how other people dance and think what they want to think.
If you want them to change, be they the dancers or the observers, hitting them over the head and yelling at them to get them to change does not work.
There is only one way to change things: Go out and dance. Go out and teach. Go out and DJ. Show them that what you do is better, cooler, more bad-ass or what-have-you. If your dancing is what you say it is, then you won't have any problems. It may take a while, but people will come around.
That said, I'm going to go dance now.
Brilliant. :D
Quoted from "Ogden" Oh, and while I think that the name is a bit sophomoric and perhaps unfortunate for my overall idea of what I think of Blues Dancing....but c'mon, it is kinda funny...I mean, they named the dance event BOOBS after all.
At the very least they've given us a reason to set the Yehoodi record for the number of times "BOOBS" in all caps appears in a single thread.
Will they deliver what they promise?
At my wife's suggestion, maybe Hooters can co-sponsor...?
I totally overreacted when I first saw the name, but it really is kind of funny, though unfortunate. I was mainly offended because I like this dance, and any event with that sort of name is bound to attract this kind of criticism to the dance as a whole. If anything, this thread has made me lighten up about it. People are going to think whatever they want anyhow.
Quoted from "tommyd76" There is sex in Blues, There is sex in rap, there is sex in polka, there is sex in opera, there is sex in square dancing (maybe) there is sex in tango and there is sex in swing. Why? Because dancing is about life/living and life can't go on till someone does the dirty.
Wait...what? What about like....women who have been circumcised? Or paraplegics? Their lives are over? No more living?!
Seriously? Is Dancing not about life because someone without legs lives or because people get oppressed? Sadly, I think you missed the point.
Good on ya Ogden. while I didn't say it before I agree that leading by example is more important to me than just yelling. In my own scene.. many just lindy slowly with some body rolls thrown in when they blues dance. I try to do the vintage stuff instead.
Quoted from "tommyd76" There is sex in Blues, There is sex in rap, there is sex in polka, there is sex in opera, there is sex in square dancing (maybe) there is sex in tango and there is sex in swing. Why? Because dancing is about life/living and life can't go on till someone does the dirty.
Wait...what? What about like....women who have been circumcised? Or paraplegics? Their lives are over? No more living?!
Seriously? Is Dancing not about life because someone without legs lives or because people get oppressed? Sadly, I think you missed the point.
Good on ya Ogden. while I didn't say it before I agree that leading by example is more important to me than just yelling. In my own scene.. many just lindy slowly with some body rolls thrown in when they blues dance. I try to do the vintage stuff instead.
Seriously? You should work on getting points before you accuse people of missing them.
There was a comment made that this topic has to be rehashed every 6 months. I find it extremely rude that this the 3rd go round that I've read with the same people being publicly berated by voices from the traditional camp. The attacked parties didn't respond the first time nor the second... its tacky to repeat criticisms yet again knowing there won't be any rebuttal.
We get it, some purists won't spend their money supporting instructors who are pushing things "beyond blues" they'd prefer to dance. Personally, I wish they'd direct the same energies towards discouraging DJ's who peddle the same tired set of monotonous guitar rock blues everywhere they play so dancers wouldn't feel the need to go off exploring fusiony fringes.
I know I work very hard for my money. The workshop I took in Philly with Mihai, Brenda, Lucky and Lessa taught me completely new approaches to movement that allowed me to integrate yoga with dance in a way "traditional" instruction hadn't to that point. But that's to be expected when the instructors are known for "blues fusion".
Similarly, the more traditional lessons I got at Enter the Blues were also invaluable, even if the focus was very different. Am I going to come away from either workshop dancing like either Lessa or Dave Madison? I should be so lucky (no pun intended)!
Obviously there are people willing to pay for both styles of instruction just as obviously as there are promoters willing to book instructors with varying approaches. That's why there is vanilla ice cream... AND chocolate... and some people who still hate both.
Singling people out by name whose style you don't like does a grave disservice to all those promoters who've scheduled those instructors you're bashing for upcoming events. More importantly, it sets a very negative tone and shows the same tackiness that is the focus of this thread.
My advice would be for people to concentrate on making their own dance what they want it to be so THAT leads by example. If you don't like someone, remember silence is golden and a dance floor always has another end. If that doesn't work, buy a ticket to another event next time or throw your own and set the bar as high as you want. That speaks far louder than sour grapes and lectures about who shouldn't be allowed to call themselves what level of instructor in your eyes.
Quoted from "Keither" Also, Tim, since the folks in Utah have to dance with the magic underwear on, perhaps leg humping is the best they can do. Why you gotta hate on the LDS?
Nice...actually I play blues music at swing events here just for my own amusement. It's hilarious to watch the LDS kids try to figure out what to do with this song.
Anyway, I moved here for the skiing, if it was for the dancing I would have left after two weeks.
Slightly Offended. I think very highly of my SLC and Provo friends. Many of them have become quite skilled at blues and have been dancing to the blues for years.
If you've ever met the "big" names from this tiny gym-based dance event, you'd expect this kind of crap. I doubt anyone with half a brain would think this is representative of Blues dance any more than Mihai is representative of typical illegal aliens.
Quoted from "Little One" I doubt anyone with half a brain would think this is representative of Blues dance any more than Mihai is representative of typical illegal aliens.
At last, we come to the root of the problem. :disguise:
Quoted from "sdswinger" yeah, a few have, but the majority haven't.
But then, the majority can barely lindy hop with any type of good connection either.
Alas, dancing seems to have fallen prey to Sturgeon's Law:
"Ninety percent of science fiction is crud.
But then, ninety percent of everything is crud."
People have been rubbin' up on each other on dance floors for far longer than the controversy around "blues dancing" has existed. Blues dancers didn't start it, nor are they likely to end it.
People are going to dance how they want to dance, to the music they want to dance to. People are going to look at how other people dance and think what they want to think.
If you want them to change, be they the dancers or the observers, hitting them over the head and yelling at them to get them to change does not work.
There is only one way to change things: Go out and dance. Go out and teach. Go out and DJ. Show them that what you do is better, cooler, more bad-ass or what-have-you. If your dancing is what you say it is, then you won't have any problems. It may take a while, but people will come around.
That said, I'm going to go dance now.
Psh. What do you know, newbie? :P
I mostly agree. I think the shut up and dance mentality is the preferred choice. But, this is Yehoodi, where people feel the need to discuss subjects ad-nauseum.
In my posts I was mainly pointing out to the people who feel that they MUST get up in arms about the issue that they're not going to accomplish much by getting pissed at the people like Swifty for pointing out public perception. You don't change much by addressing the symptom of an issue, you change by addressing the root.
I disagree on the point about beating people over the head. Some people DO need it, in a figurative sense. If people have bad behavior, they need to be slapped in the face with it, or they'll never change. At the very least, instead of sucking up newbies and perpetuating the same behavior, the newbies can be steered away from it by big flashing neon signs that say "DONT DO THIS". Its not an uncommon practice in any dance community, to break people of bad habits. The lindy community went through it after the dissolve of the Savoy vs Hollywood nonsense. I think that the combination of setting a better example through instruction and seeing better dancing combined to get people to pull away from those bad habits. Either on their own would never have done the trick.
Isn't the obvious solution to this debate some sort of fusion between swing and blues? Hell, throw in some tango, and you've got something that's only 33 sexual. Everyone's happy. :dunno:
(please note I see a huge distinction between sexual and creepy)
Good point.
Yeah, being sexual is engaging in salacious behavior when you invite a large group of friends and acquaintances to someone's home for a party. Creepy is going to a blues dance and having to put up with being asking to dance by one of "those" people who you don't think is hot or cool, and would never want to dance with, much less be seen in public with.
We have a couple strange exceptions like LindyGroove and Strutter's Ball, but generally speaking yes.
But I also have to agree with Marcelo; The normal turn over of trends had/has a huge effect as well.
On the plus side that turn over of trends...combined with dance geeks getting into vintage is starting to create a cool high-class (black tie) 20s/30s vintage scene (dress, dance, and music). It's very cool...I hope it sticks around for a while. ;-)
I just thought your open agreement with Chiv's comment about NY, coming from someone who's in the country's largest scene, seemed to be incongruous. How do you compare what happened in NY with what happened in LA? I'm saying this as a total newbie in terms of the longer time line.
you just got to listen to the music, 'cause it's talkin' to you man! -frankie
Quoted from "Trazy" Isn't the obvious solution to this debate some sort of fusion between swing and blues? Hell, throw in some tango, and you've got something that's only 33 sexual. Everyone's happy. :dunno:
where is the 33 coming from? Tango, swing or blues?
Fusion is to me seems like a word people use when they don't know how to dance a particular dance to the music. That isn't the solution and honestly, this offer is evidence that people don't understand Blues dancing in the historical aspect as much as they do Tango or Lindy. There is a legitimate dance to it. What most people see is NeoBlues :P
-
Lindy:
Swing Talk
- 3/20/08 12:00 am by Swifty
- 109153 views
Big Outstanding Oberlin Blues Spectacular Seriously, what the [bleep!]?Page(s): < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 30 31 Next > (927 items total)
Marcelo
That's a pretty liberal definition of trolling.
redbean
What, posting a thread to bait emotional responses? I guess if a noob had wandered on and posted the same thread without knowing the history of these discussions (over and over and over again) on Yehoodi, I probably wouldn't hold it to that light.
But anyone who's been on this forum for any length of time should know exactly what type of responses they'll get when they post a thread like this. The title itself is snarky and inflammatory. I can't help but call "troll" in this instance.
Granted, Swifty is a regular poster, a friend of many, and not someone who I would consider to actually BE a forum troll. But with this specific thread, yes, I think it was trolling.
Air
Damn conservatives!
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
DJLarkin
Sure it does. People only judge what they're exposed to. It makes sense that if what a majority of the blues dancing they're exposed to is humpy crap, thats what they're going to assume blues dancing is. You can SAY thats not what it is, but when you don't see anything else, its hard to assume that what you're saying holds true.
Yes, there IS a difference. But, in the above example, you're not doing the same. You're attacking the people who are posting the videos, instead of the videos themselves. Metaphorically speaking. Attack the "blues dancers" who are giving you a bad name, and not the people who mock the "blues dancers". The target of your ire is misplaced, it should be on the people giving you a bad name.
What you're doing, though, by arguing in these threads is just attaching yourselves TO the bad blues dancing, instead of distancing yourself like you should be doing. By getting defensive when "blues dancing" is attacked, you create an association that you're defending "blues dancing", when in reality you want to be distanced from it.
I mean, you're calling swifty a troll for ripping on something thats giving YOUR scene a bad name, instead of saying that its not blues, and that its silly and/or stupid. My response would have been. "Yes, its giving legitimate blues a bad name, and I wish they would stop doing it."
You see where the line becomes blurred to those on the other side of the fence?
CookiesandLindy
Wait...what? What about like....women who have been circumcised? Or paraplegics? Their lives are over? No more living?!
Marcelo
No, it was making fun of a silly and juvenile name. You can't make fun of an exchange's name anymore now if it's a blues exchange? You can't be snarky or inflammatory? The event was called BOOBS, for crying out loud! It had a lil boob logo! It was in pink! The breast cancer color! You don't think that event deserves a sound thrashing? Grow some thicker skin!
And besides, Swifty's disagreement is a legit one - he and others with is opinion have totally been able to hold their own on the thread. So how is that trolling?
That event deserves every damn piece of snark thrown at it. I'm amazed all you "real" blues dancers (for lack of a better term) aren't equally snarky. No one's attacking you. The proper response is to be snarky to the event that's ruining your good name.
Air
Does that count? ;)
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
redbean
I feel that, if not trolling, the title of the thread was at the very least flame-baiting, if only because of the noted history of these discussions.
Or this one discussion. Because it's always the same discussion.
The thread stopped being exclusively about this one event a long time ago.
But if this thread is about this one event, then here's what I have to say:
Really stupid name. Certainly doesn't help the cause. Juvenile and silly.. but admittedly, pretty funny. :)
And yes, I wish to God these people would stop, already.
Beckto
"Blues dancing."
How does that feel?
"BLUES DANCING."
Feel good? Make you feel like a woman?
"BLUES DANCING."
There is a difference. And I've stated it before.
redbean
YEAH, baby. Say it again. I SAID SAY IT AGAIN!
Ogden
My experience:
People have been rubbin' up on each other on dance floors for far longer than the controversy around "blues dancing" has existed. Blues dancers didn't start it, nor are they likely to end it.
People are going to dance how they want to dance, to the music they want to dance to. People are going to look at how other people dance and think what they want to think.
If you want them to change, be they the dancers or the observers, hitting them over the head and yelling at them to get them to change does not work.
There is only one way to change things: Go out and dance. Go out and teach. Go out and DJ. Show them that what you do is better, cooler, more bad-ass or what-have-you. If your dancing is what you say it is, then you won't have any problems. It may take a while, but people will come around.
That said, I'm going to go dance now.
Ogden
Oh, and while I think that the name is a bit sophomoric and perhaps unfortunate for my overall idea of what I think of Blues Dancing....but c'mon, it is kinda funny...I mean, they named the dance event BOOBS after all.
At the very least they've given us a reason to set the Yehoodi record for the number of times "BOOBS" in all caps appears in a single thread.
Will they deliver what they promise?
At my wife's suggestion, maybe Hooters can co-sponsor...?
WiseFolly
Brilliant. :D
I totally overreacted when I first saw the name, but it really is kind of funny, though unfortunate. I was mainly offended because I like this dance, and any event with that sort of name is bound to attract this kind of criticism to the dance as a whole. If anything, this thread has made me lighten up about it. People are going to think whatever they want anyhow.
tommyd76
Seriously? Is Dancing not about life because someone without legs lives or because people get oppressed? Sadly, I think you missed the point.
Good on ya Ogden. while I didn't say it before I agree that leading by example is more important to me than just yelling. In my own scene.. many just lindy slowly with some body rolls thrown in when they blues dance. I try to do the vintage stuff instead.
CookiesandLindy
Seriously? You should work on getting points before you accuse people of missing them.
Matthew
I think I'll start the Pittsburgh Underground Eclectic Revivalist Intimate Lindy Exchange.
billy bakelite
There was a comment made that this topic has to be rehashed every 6 months. I find it extremely rude that this the 3rd go round that I've read with the same people being publicly berated by voices from the traditional camp. The attacked parties didn't respond the first time nor the second... its tacky to repeat criticisms yet again knowing there won't be any rebuttal.
We get it, some purists won't spend their money supporting instructors who are pushing things "beyond blues" they'd prefer to dance. Personally, I wish they'd direct the same energies towards discouraging DJ's who peddle the same tired set of monotonous guitar rock blues everywhere they play so dancers wouldn't feel the need to go off exploring fusiony fringes.
I know I work very hard for my money. The workshop I took in Philly with Mihai, Brenda, Lucky and Lessa taught me completely new approaches to movement that allowed me to integrate yoga with dance in a way "traditional" instruction hadn't to that point. But that's to be expected when the instructors are known for "blues fusion".
Similarly, the more traditional lessons I got at Enter the Blues were also invaluable, even if the focus was very different. Am I going to come away from either workshop dancing like either Lessa or Dave Madison? I should be so lucky (no pun intended)!
Obviously there are people willing to pay for both styles of instruction just as obviously as there are promoters willing to book instructors with varying approaches. That's why there is vanilla ice cream... AND chocolate... and some people who still hate both.
Singling people out by name whose style you don't like does a grave disservice to all those promoters who've scheduled those instructors you're bashing for upcoming events. More importantly, it sets a very negative tone and shows the same tackiness that is the focus of this thread.
My advice would be for people to concentrate on making their own dance what they want it to be so THAT leads by example. If you don't like someone, remember silence is golden and a dance floor always has another end. If that doesn't work, buy a ticket to another event next time or throw your own and set the bar as high as you want. That speaks far louder than sour grapes and lectures about who shouldn't be allowed to call themselves what level of instructor in your eyes.
SHORTYJOY
Slightly Offended. I think very highly of my SLC and Provo friends. Many of them have become quite skilled at blues and have been dancing to the blues for years.
sdswinger
yeah, a few have, but the majority haven't.
But then, the majority can barely lindy hop with any type of good connection either.
I may not live there anymore, but my dancing feet will always be from L.A.
Little One
If you've ever met the "big" names from this tiny gym-based dance event, you'd expect this kind of crap. I doubt anyone with half a brain would think this is representative of Blues dance any more than Mihai is representative of typical illegal aliens.
Chivalrous
At last, we come to the root of the problem. :disguise:
Martinis do not contain vodka. —Rachel Maddow
Phlurg
Clearly, I've been doing the polka wrong all these years.
Foehg
Alas, dancing seems to have fallen prey to Sturgeon's Law:
"Ninety percent of science fiction is crud.
But then, ninety percent of everything is crud."
Bigg_Al
Or the Washington Urban Swing Style.
Keither
That's what happens when you dance with your mom.
DJLarkin
Psh. What do you know, newbie? :P
I mostly agree. I think the shut up and dance mentality is the preferred choice. But, this is Yehoodi, where people feel the need to discuss subjects ad-nauseum.
In my posts I was mainly pointing out to the people who feel that they MUST get up in arms about the issue that they're not going to accomplish much by getting pissed at the people like Swifty for pointing out public perception. You don't change much by addressing the symptom of an issue, you change by addressing the root.
I disagree on the point about beating people over the head. Some people DO need it, in a figurative sense. If people have bad behavior, they need to be slapped in the face with it, or they'll never change. At the very least, instead of sucking up newbies and perpetuating the same behavior, the newbies can be steered away from it by big flashing neon signs that say "DONT DO THIS". Its not an uncommon practice in any dance community, to break people of bad habits. The lindy community went through it after the dissolve of the Savoy vs Hollywood nonsense. I think that the combination of setting a better example through instruction and seeing better dancing combined to get people to pull away from those bad habits. Either on their own would never have done the trick.
Trazy
Isn't the obvious solution to this debate some sort of fusion between swing and blues? Hell, throw in some tango, and you've got something that's only 33 sexual. Everyone's happy. :dunno:
Wexie
Yeah, being sexual is engaging in salacious behavior when you invite a large group of friends and acquaintances to someone's home for a party. Creepy is going to a blues dance and having to put up with being asking to dance by one of "those" people who you don't think is hot or cool, and would never want to dance with, much less be seen in public with.
pill_popper
you just got to listen to the music, 'cause it's talkin' to you man! -frankie
http://www.zazzle.com/anarchyforpresident
tommyd76
where is the 33 coming from? Tango, swing or blues?
Fusion is to me seems like a word people use when they don't know how to dance a particular dance to the music. That isn't the solution and honestly, this offer is evidence that people don't understand Blues dancing in the historical aspect as much as they do Tango or Lindy. There is a legitimate dance to it. What most people see is NeoBlues :P
Page(s): < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 30 31 Next > (927 items total)
Related Content
No related topics found.