(please note I see a huge distinction between sexual and creepy)
Good point.
Yeah, being sexual is engaging in salacious behavior when you invite a large group of friends and acquaintances to someone's home for a party. Creepy is going to a blues dance and having to put up with being asking to dance by one of "those" people who you don't think is hot or cool, and would never want to dance with, much less be seen in public with.
There seems to be a little sarcasm here. Operating on that assumption:
[mode=Gadfly]
Wexie,
Do you feel that there's no difference between behavior in private and behavior in public? I.E. Can there not be a situation where something done in private is acceptable, whereas were the same thing done in public, it would be unacceptable, a.k.a. creepy?
Also,
Does social awkwardness excuse any or all boundary crossing? Are social skills impossible to learn?[/mode]
Quoted from "tommyd76" There is a legitimate dance to it. What most people see is NeoBlues :P
I'd say there are legitimate dances to it. And there's no grand-daddy king champion badass of a dance like Lindy Hop is to the swing dance genre. Since there's no defining paradigm, there's room for all sorts of other stuff to pop up.
Please note there's nothing positive or negative about the above statement. It is in no way a value judgement.
Dude...whether I read/post or not, it's still going isn't it? I made no
mention, acknowledgement nor disagreement with anything you
just posted...did I? Or should I take your comment as I'm really
not welcome to say anything...just asking. I thought it was merely
a statement of observation.
Quoted from "pill_popper" I'm saying this as a total newbie in terms of the longer time line.
No offense to Zenin, but he's pretty new to the long term scene too. Nothing he's said has been wrong, but he wasn't there for most of it. I was, though. :)
LA and NYC are weird. They're very similar in many ways, yet so different in others. LA's priorities are different - here it's more about the history and the lifestyle, going to the historical ballrooms, listening to the right music, doing the dance accurately, wearing the clothes, etc. It always has been. I remember in 1999 when you'd go out dancing everyone would be in vintage clothes - they would actually be looking at old Sears catalogues and photos for examples of what to get. You could buy style guides that told you about how to pick a gabardine shirt, what to look for in shoes, blah blah blah. LA was also extremely competitive, you had Camp Hollywood there, you had all these high profile couples who were all friends but they were also all jousting for top honors in the various competitions. People would hoard old clips because the moves on them were their "secret weapons." It was weird.
I could be wrong (and please if you're from NYC feel free to correct me), but from my pov NYC was never about that, it was always much more social - people became better friends in NYC, they've lasted longer as a tightly knit community. The competition aspect wasn't as pronounced, and there weren't as many rivalries? I dunno.
It seems to me that LA's swing scene kinda ate itself alive, with different rivalries and factions turning on each other and disliking each other for various things. In NYC you have people who have known each other for ten years still being great friends - in LA they would both probably be out of the scene because of all the infighting.
In addition, LA used to have tons of amazing venues for dancing, and when swing dancing was popular a club owner could make a ton of money putting on a swing night. As the fad ended and the wallflowers moved on to salsa or whatever, the infrastructure collapsed, and all of a sudden people had to find Elk's Lodges and dance studios to dance in - it kind of shattered the "we're recreating history!" illusion. New York dancers don't seem to mind as much, they care more about being there in the now and making their own history, while LA cares more about recreating the past. Whereas LA dancers would be all "I'm not dancing in an Elk's Lodge to a DJ!" NYC dancers would be greatful for the space (also because space in NYC is much more of a premium).
In any case, the infighting that ate the scene alive was completely personal, and it had nothing to do with HOW you danced. Shunning neoswingers and moving the dance towards traditional Lindy Hop didn't kill the scene the way Chiv implies. It was more of a perfect storm - the fad died out, the venues dried up, and people hated each other anyway.
I don't know if this really satisfies your request, but hopefully it provides a little insight as to why "the old LA scene" is pretty much dead. It seems like a new scene with new infrastructure is developing from the ashes, which is great, and hopefully it will retain the same commitment to history that made LA so unique in the first place - but that is something where you'll have to ask Zenin, as he's been out much more than I have over the last year or so.
Quoted from "Dr. Feelgood" Dude...whether I read/post or not, it's still going isn't it? I made no
mention, acknowledgement nor disagreement with anything you
just posted...did I? Or should I take your comment as I'm really
not welcome to say anything...just asking. I thought it was merely
a statement of observation.
My comment made no mention of who was disagreeing with you. Personally, FWIW, I agree with you on some points, and disagree with you on others. You're as welcome as any of us to post whatever you like.
FTR though, just making a statement of observation would have been:
There are two separate communities that both use the same name: blues. Yes there are some cross over dancers that enjoy both scenes, but more and more I see two distinct scenes developing.
There is the blues scene that is characterized mainly by blues music (with even some older delta blues music starting to become more popular) where the music and dancing evokes a wide range of emotions and its not necessarily overtly sexual.
There is another blues scene in which the music played is often not really blues (but a wide range of slower genre's of music) and is accepting of extremely overly sexual dancing.
The problem arises that since both used the name blues dancing to describe their dancing and events, they both influence what other people think about the other group. In all honesty, I don't think either group is prepared to give up the term blues dancing as one group views it as historically accurate for their group and the other views it as an accepted term for slow/sexy dancing.
I don't think there is going to be any solution to this problem. I think people just need to recognize that there are two distinct groups and the characteristics of one group does not necessarily translate to the other group. When I see a blues event being put on the first thing I do is look at the organizers to see who is putting it on or who is teaching. From there I can discern between the two groups and decide which events I want to participate in. I don't think this is so unlike seeing a swing club or event advertised and looking in to see if it is a lindyhop event before I decide if I will attend.
Since you agree on some and disagree on others - fine. But why bother
to tell me "how you would have preferred my statement to read?" I guess
I could say, "Maybe you should have asked me if that's what I meant..."
But that doesn't get anywhere now does it? We're just going to get caught
up in a circular argument WITHIN a circular argument.
You and I have not had any real interaction since page 3...LOL, but ok.
I will even go a step further, Addict...
It seems you felt the editorial comment I made had to do with the "SIGH".
Why did I write that? Because many of the people that have this little
discussion know each other so well (good friends), and maybe it's
really kind of disappointing on many levels to see it continue over
and over.
You're right, I don't know where he's coming from. I don't see how that's relevant. He doesn't know where I'm coming from either.
You're also right that nobody's forcing me to read or post; I'm not complaining that this conversation is happening. That may not be what he meant, but that's the way it came across.
Quoted from "Beckto" What does this prove? That Lindy Hopping people [bleep!] around at parties (like most young people a few times in their lives)? Ok. Yeah, sometimes they do.
Quoted from "Wexie"
What I'm addressing is a bunch of people I know who will not go to blues parties, even in private homes, because they were "dirty" and "creepy."
Yet on the scale of 1-10 of salacious behavior, I would give what I have seen at their private parties a solid 6, and what I was seeing at private blues parties, a solid 1.
People talk about behavior being "inappropriate" and "dirty," and what they really mean is "It's hot between me and my friends, but not with those people."
My guess is my experiences is not unique, and these are the people who have contributed to painting the blues community with one sweeping brush.
People talk about behavior being "inappropriate" and "dirty," and what they really mean is "It's hot between me and my friends, but not with those people."
My guess is my experiences is not unique, and these are the people who have contributed to painting the blues community with one sweeping brush.
In the non-fiction book, Reefer Madness, the author states: "Marijuana and Pornography are two commodities that Americans "publicly abhor, privately adore, and buy in astonishing amounts."
I think there is a little of that type of hypocrisy going on here. That is all.
Quoted from "nereus" There are two separate communities that both use the same name: blues. Yes there are some cross over dancers that enjoy both scenes, but more and more I see two distinct scenes developing.
There is the blues scene that is characterized mainly by blues music (with even some older delta blues music starting to become more popular) where the music and dancing evokes a wide range of emotions and its not necessarily overtly sexual.
There is another blues scene in which the music played is often not really blues (but a wide range of slower genre's of music) and is accepting of extremely overly sexual dancing.
The problem arises that since both used the name blues dancing to describe their dancing and events, they both influence what other people think about the other group. In all honesty, I don't think either group is prepared to give up the term blues dancing as one group views it as historically accurate for their group and the other views it as an accepted term for slow/sexy dancing.
I don't think there is going to be any solution to this problem. I think people just need to recognize that there are two distinct groups and the characteristics of one group does not necessarily translate to the other group. When I see a blues event being put on the first thing I do is look at the organizers to see who is putting it on or who is teaching. From there I can discern between the two groups and decide which events I want to participate in. I don't think this is so unlike seeing a swing club or event advertised and looking in to see if it is a Lindy Hop event before I decide if I will attend.
This is a little saddening as well. I know this to be true- it is just like the Lindy community and it's divide between those who will dance lindy and Charleston to all swing music and those who only like stuff from a certain period.
It saddens me because the Blues Scene as a whole is really not that large. Splintering over how we choose to dance to the music- or whether it's 100 blues or 50 blues in the course of a night seems a little petty to me. (IMHO, You are not dancing BLUES if the music is not Blues)
Whether the movement I am doing to the music is exactly matching clips from Spirit Moves- (which is quite dirty at times), I care not. There are clips I fast forward. As long as the body movement that happens while dancing to Blues accurately expresses the emotion of the song and it feels connected and (not creepy) I am happy.
Also, back to the original post- if I'd known that all it takes to sell an event is BOOBS. I would have made better use of my own. (kidding)
Marcello's summary of the LA scene was interesting. Thank you.
(Other than that, how do you all manage to read and write so many pages of this stuff? can someone please let me know if I missed anything between pages 3 and this one? I appreciate it.)
BTW, representative or Blues dancing or not, that video Swifty linked to did look kinda like a pole dance/lap dance combo. Given the moneymaking potential, if I were a stripper, I would definitely pay money for a workshop to master that.
"Style is originality; fashion is fascism.The two are eternally and unalterably opposed." - Lester Bangs
In any case, the infighting that ate the scene alive was completely personal, and it had nothing to do with HOW you danced. Shunning neoswingers and moving the dance towards traditional Lindy Hop didn't kill the scene the way Chiv implies. It was more of a perfect storm - the fad died out, the venues dried up, and people hated each other anyway.
Actually you were the one who set up the neoswing/lindy hop opposition and claimed victory over the state of the scene today (granted LA and NY are not the same scene so we could be comparing apples to pears). I expanded it to include everybody that helped make up the scene besides lindy hoppers. And of course there are lots of factors, but if you don't think a holier-than-though attitude wasn't a huge part of it, you're kidding yourself. Cheapness was a huge part as well. Even when this scene was booming, they couldn't really sustain many venues consistently because only the loungers and casual onlookers were drinking. For all the bitching we've done about Lo-Fi Lee (sometimes for good reason), he really did work his ass off trying to find us new venues when they'd keep closing down every 6 months. And it's not like he was getting rich off of it.
A perfect storm didn't kill the scene. A perfect storm CREATED the scene.
Then when a large section of the scene decided to turn their noses up at everyone else and refuse to support the bar, causing venues to close down constantly, all the people who were more into the music or other aspects of the scene found other places to go, because it wasn't worth sticking around to put up with that.
And if you don't think peoples' exclusionary attitudes had a HUGE part to do with that, you're fooling yourself. To this day about half the people I mention being in the swing scene to tell me all about how they thought that would be so cool, but they went a few times and just got attitude and never wanted to go back. And that's just the people who actually went, not including all the people they told who said "screw that" and never even bothered to try it. Anyone who's worked in the hospitality field knows exactly how that kind of word of mouth can affect a place. One disgruntled customer makes you lose ten down the road.
I find it interesting that, while everyone seems to have noticed the name, no one has noticed the fact that this event is put on by the Oberling SWING society. (Look at the logo in the top right)
Their registration is done through the Oswing page
Heck, the ENTIRE website (just look at the url) is on the Oswing hosting....
http://www.oberlin.edu/stuorg/oswing/workshop/
Therefore, if you are going to bash the Blues community for this one event name, then you must also bash the Swing community.
Unless you're going to say "but, wait... that's just ONE swing scene, NOT the entire community"... in which case, I will say "Exactly."
And speaking of names for events... didn't the Swing community put on the Old West Sausage Fest ??? Descriptions for it said: "Guys - Does your dancing ever feel limp, flat, or stale? Looking for that one magic pill which would solve all your performance woes? Old West Sausage Fest is the event for you! This weekend features three days of workshops, main and late night dances, local and national-recognized DJs, and several other activities unique to Old West Sausage Fest."
What about yehoodi's own sausage? http://www.yehoodi.com/sausage/
Now, that is going WAY beyond double meanings...
Let's not have double standard's now. If you are going to bash the name of an event for one genre of dancers, you gotta do the same for all genres ...
Besides, why the big fuss? If you don't like the name of an event, don't go to it. If you don't like the style of the dance of an event, don't go to it. If you don't like the way that the organizers of an event are running that event, then don't go it. There are PLENTY of events out there.
If you haven't been a to blues event in the past 4 years, check out one of the larger ones out there, such as Down Home Blues Shout, Emerald City Blues, Austin Blues Party, or Blues Boot Camp . You may find that blues isn't as bad as you think it is? You'll probably find that a lot of what you do on the swing floor is related to blues.
I started to learn Blues, because it was going to help improve my swing.
(apologies if some of this was actually covered in the past 7 pages and i missed it)
Quoted from "keyser520" Therefore, if you are going to bash the Blues community for this one event, then you must also bash the Swing community.
This makes no sense. It's advertised as a blues event - not swing. That's like saying any event Yehoodi puts on has nothing to do with swing because it's not in the url.
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
Quoted from "keyser520" Therefore, if you are going to bash the Blues community for this one event, then you must also bash the Swing community.
This makes no sense. It's advertised as a blues event - not swing. That's like saying any event Yehoodi puts on has nothing to do with swing because it's not in the url.
It's an event run by a swing organization. Therefore it is something related to a swing organization. You are trying to bash the blues community at large by an event that isn't even put on by a blues organization, but by a swing organization!
If I use my blues organization to create a lindy event and call it "Swing in to town, Swing Out with someone else's wife", would that reflect negatively on the swing scene? or the blues scene? Or on the organizer?
It's simple logic.
So why are you up in arms about BOOBS, but not about Sausage Fest or Yehoodi's Sausage?
Quoted from "Wexie" Depends upon context and the specific behavior in question. There is also a distinction between private, and semi-private.
Good distinction to make
Quote What I'm addressing is a bunch of people I know who will not go to blues parties, even in private homes, because they were "dirty" and "creepy."
Yet on the scale of 1-10 of salacious behavior, I would give what I have seen at their private parties a solid 6, and what I was seeing at private blues parties, a solid 1.
People talk about behavior being "inappropriate" and "dirty," and what they really mean is "It's hot between me and my friends, but not with those people."
My guess is my experiences is not unique, and these are the people who have contributed to painting the blues community with one sweeping brush.
In the non-fiction book, Reefer Madness, the author states: "Marijuana and Pornography are two commodities that Americans "publicly abhor, privately adore, and buy in astonishing amounts."
I think there is a little of that type of hypocrisy going on here. That is all.
I don't doubt that's been your experience. Dunno how common it is. FTR, I could care less what happens at a house party(caveat, between consenting adults). If I don't like it, I can change rooms, or change parties for that matter. But what started this conversation is a completely public event. The clips that have been shown are from workshops .. also completely public. Why would people's hypocrisy towards various private events matter?
Quoted from "SHORTYJOY" It saddens me because the Blues Scene as a whole is really not that large. Splintering over how we choose to dance to the music- or whether it's 100 blues or 50 blues in the course of a night seems a little petty to me. (IMHO, You are not dancing BLUES if the music is not Blues)
I dance becuase I enjoy dancing and music and for that reason only. I am happy to help out here and there to support the community as a whole, but in the end I do it because I enjoy it. I don't enjoy listening to most of the non-blues music that gets played at many blues parties and it doesn't inspire me to dance. Nothing wrong with the music they are playing, I just seem not to have fun at those events.
I think most people dance for the same reason. Some of them don't enjoy listening to delta blues and it doesn't inspire them to dance. To each his own and I place no value judgments on which is better. I am happy that their is an event where they can dance to music that they enjoy and inspires them.
I don't think splintering into smaller groups is necessarily a bad thing. The fact that we can splinter into two groups means both groups are getting larger.
Quoted from "Trazy" Isn't the obvious solution to this debate some sort of fusion between swing and blues? Hell, throw in some tango, and you've got something that's only 33 sexual. Everyone's happy. :dunno:
Is this what you meant?
Lindyfest: Lover Man / Steven and Virginie w/ Naomi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMfWtTd7EaM
Honestly, though, (by the way, I think the name is pretty far on the far side from that line of good taste) if you're blues dancing at a lindy event, you likely decided to pick up blues because you saw it at a lindy event.
And, if you've really internalized blues technique, it's also pretty clear in how you dance lindy hop since it greatly increases the range of potential ways to interpret the music (so long as the music's not at the musicaly equivalent of a 100 yard dash).
But, hey, open the hatch on my bomb shelter when you're done, guys. :roll:
Quoted from "keyser520" IAnd speaking of names for events... didn't the Swing community put on the Old West Sausage Fest ???
Yeah and the only creepy leads there were the ones doing "the blues". Also, it was hysterical to watch.
While an interesting point, that had nothing to do with my question... which was geared specifically at the topic of bashing this particular event (Boobs) because of it's name and description. I'm seeing severe double standards when people have to bash "BOOBS" but let "Sausage fest" and phrases that obviously refer to a penis having trouble "getting it up" go by without raising so much as a whisper.
I see a double standard in bashing "boobs" on a website that has a whole sub-section dedicated to sausage talk.
It's an obvious case of "Pot.. Kettle... Black"
I am not saying that I approve or disapprove of the names of any of the above events. I'm simply saying that everyone should hold such things to the same standards.
To address your specific post, you talked of all the creepy leads doing what you call "blues". I've been to classes taught by the best national blues instructors, and not a single one of them has had a class about being creepy. In fact, the concepts and moves I've learned from classes from the likes of Damon, Heidi, Ogden, Amanda, Jerry, Kathy, Don West, Falty, etc have helped both my blues and lindy.
I incorporate a whole lot of blues concepts into lindy, yet I have never once been accused of as being a creepy lead (at least, not that I know about..)
-
Lindy:
Swing Talk
- 3/20/08 12:00 am by Swifty
- 109147 views
Big Outstanding Oberlin Blues Spectacular Seriously, what the [bleep!]?Page(s): < Previous 1 2 ... 5 6 7 8 9 ... 30 31 Next > (927 items total)
Addict
There seems to be a little sarcasm here. Operating on that assumption:
[mode=Gadfly]
Wexie,
Do you feel that there's no difference between behavior in private and behavior in public? I.E. Can there not be a situation where something done in private is acceptable, whereas were the same thing done in public, it would be unacceptable, a.k.a. creepy?
Also,
Does social awkwardness excuse any or all boundary crossing? Are social skills impossible to learn?[/mode]
Addict
I'd say there are legitimate dances to it. And there's no grand-daddy king champion badass of a dance like Lindy Hop is to the swing dance genre. Since there's no defining paradigm, there's room for all sorts of other stuff to pop up.
Please note there's nothing positive or negative about the above statement. It is in no way a value judgement.
yes.
thanks, it was time for me to change my signature.
Dr. Feelgood
Sigh...this thread is STILL going...
Addict
Dude, nobody and nothing is forcing you to either read or post.
so allow me to translate the above:
Sigh, people still disagree with me and won't shut up about it
redbean
I can pretty much completely assure you that that's not what he meant. :-P
Dr. Feelgood
Dude...whether I read/post or not, it's still going isn't it? I made no
mention, acknowledgement nor disagreement with anything you
just posted...did I? Or should I take your comment as I'm really
not welcome to say anything...just asking. I thought it was merely
a statement of observation.
Marcelo
No offense to Zenin, but he's pretty new to the long term scene too. Nothing he's said has been wrong, but he wasn't there for most of it. I was, though. :)
LA and NYC are weird. They're very similar in many ways, yet so different in others. LA's priorities are different - here it's more about the history and the lifestyle, going to the historical ballrooms, listening to the right music, doing the dance accurately, wearing the clothes, etc. It always has been. I remember in 1999 when you'd go out dancing everyone would be in vintage clothes - they would actually be looking at old Sears catalogues and photos for examples of what to get. You could buy style guides that told you about how to pick a gabardine shirt, what to look for in shoes, blah blah blah. LA was also extremely competitive, you had Camp Hollywood there, you had all these high profile couples who were all friends but they were also all jousting for top honors in the various competitions. People would hoard old clips because the moves on them were their "secret weapons." It was weird.
I could be wrong (and please if you're from NYC feel free to correct me), but from my pov NYC was never about that, it was always much more social - people became better friends in NYC, they've lasted longer as a tightly knit community. The competition aspect wasn't as pronounced, and there weren't as many rivalries? I dunno.
It seems to me that LA's swing scene kinda ate itself alive, with different rivalries and factions turning on each other and disliking each other for various things. In NYC you have people who have known each other for ten years still being great friends - in LA they would both probably be out of the scene because of all the infighting.
In addition, LA used to have tons of amazing venues for dancing, and when swing dancing was popular a club owner could make a ton of money putting on a swing night. As the fad ended and the wallflowers moved on to salsa or whatever, the infrastructure collapsed, and all of a sudden people had to find Elk's Lodges and dance studios to dance in - it kind of shattered the "we're recreating history!" illusion. New York dancers don't seem to mind as much, they care more about being there in the now and making their own history, while LA cares more about recreating the past. Whereas LA dancers would be all "I'm not dancing in an Elk's Lodge to a DJ!" NYC dancers would be greatful for the space (also because space in NYC is much more of a premium).
In any case, the infighting that ate the scene alive was completely personal, and it had nothing to do with HOW you danced. Shunning neoswingers and moving the dance towards traditional Lindy Hop didn't kill the scene the way Chiv implies. It was more of a perfect storm - the fad died out, the venues dried up, and people hated each other anyway.
I don't know if this really satisfies your request, but hopefully it provides a little insight as to why "the old LA scene" is pretty much dead. It seems like a new scene with new infrastructure is developing from the ashes, which is great, and hopefully it will retain the same commitment to history that made LA so unique in the first place - but that is something where you'll have to ask Zenin, as he's been out much more than I have over the last year or so.
Dr. Feelgood
Thanks Marcelo, I was hoping you were going to elaborate on the
differences/similarities...nice points.
Addict
My comment made no mention of who was disagreeing with you. Personally, FWIW, I agree with you on some points, and disagree with you on others. You're as welcome as any of us to post whatever you like.
FTR though, just making a statement of observation would have been:
This conversation is still going.
No editorial overtones there.
swingkittenpsu1
Dan,
back off.
nobody is forcing you to read or post either.
That being said I do find it ridiculous that this conversation is still happening after page 1.
nereus
There are two separate communities that both use the same name: blues. Yes there are some cross over dancers that enjoy both scenes, but more and more I see two distinct scenes developing.
There is the blues scene that is characterized mainly by blues music (with even some older delta blues music starting to become more popular) where the music and dancing evokes a wide range of emotions and its not necessarily overtly sexual.
There is another blues scene in which the music played is often not really blues (but a wide range of slower genre's of music) and is accepting of extremely overly sexual dancing.
The problem arises that since both used the name blues dancing to describe their dancing and events, they both influence what other people think about the other group. In all honesty, I don't think either group is prepared to give up the term blues dancing as one group views it as historically accurate for their group and the other views it as an accepted term for slow/sexy dancing.
I don't think there is going to be any solution to this problem. I think people just need to recognize that there are two distinct groups and the characteristics of one group does not necessarily translate to the other group. When I see a blues event being put on the first thing I do is look at the organizers to see who is putting it on or who is teaching. From there I can discern between the two groups and decide which events I want to participate in. I don't think this is so unlike seeing a swing club or event advertised and looking in to see if it is a lindyhop event before I decide if I will attend.
Dr. Feelgood
Since you agree on some and disagree on others - fine. But why bother
to tell me "how you would have preferred my statement to read?" I guess
I could say, "Maybe you should have asked me if that's what I meant..."
But that doesn't get anywhere now does it? We're just going to get caught
up in a circular argument WITHIN a circular argument.
You and I have not had any real interaction since page 3...LOL, but ok.
I will even go a step further, Addict...
It seems you felt the editorial comment I made had to do with the "SIGH".
Why did I write that? Because many of the people that have this little
discussion know each other so well (good friends), and maybe it's
really kind of disappointing on many levels to see it continue over
and over.
Hence - "Sigh".
Addict
Annelise,
You're right, I don't know where he's coming from. I don't see how that's relevant. He doesn't know where I'm coming from either.
You're also right that nobody's forcing me to read or post; I'm not complaining that this conversation is happening. That may not be what he meant, but that's the way it came across.
Dan
Wexie
yes.
A freaking men, Wex.
SHORTYJOY
This is a little saddening as well. I know this to be true- it is just like the Lindy community and it's divide between those who will dance lindy and Charleston to all swing music and those who only like stuff from a certain period.
It saddens me because the Blues Scene as a whole is really not that large. Splintering over how we choose to dance to the music- or whether it's 100 blues or 50 blues in the course of a night seems a little petty to me. (IMHO, You are not dancing BLUES if the music is not Blues)
Whether the movement I am doing to the music is exactly matching clips from Spirit Moves- (which is quite dirty at times), I care not. There are clips I fast forward. As long as the body movement that happens while dancing to Blues accurately expresses the emotion of the song and it feels connected and (not creepy) I am happy.
Also, back to the original post- if I'd known that all it takes to sell an event is BOOBS. I would have made better use of my own. (kidding)
Phlurg
I've enjoyed staying abreast of this topic.
Dr. Feelgood
"Staying Abreast..." Nice.
Well, on a lighter note I've been told that a few people have contacted
the folks at B.O.O.B.S. to discuss the name/and other things erotic...
Hopefully the kids don't call everyone here hypocrites when they learn
we don't care for their joke...
but we LOVE ours http://www.yehoodi.com/sausage/
LOL!!!
Zev
Marcello's summary of the LA scene was interesting. Thank you.
(Other than that, how do you all manage to read and write so many pages of this stuff? can someone please let me know if I missed anything between pages 3 and this one? I appreciate it.)
BTW, representative or Blues dancing or not, that video Swifty linked to did look kinda like a pole dance/lap dance combo. Given the moneymaking potential, if I were a stripper, I would definitely pay money for a workshop to master that.
"Style is originality; fashion is fascism.The two are eternally and unalterably opposed." - Lester Bangs
Chivalrous
Actually you were the one who set up the neoswing/lindy hop opposition and claimed victory over the state of the scene today (granted LA and NY are not the same scene so we could be comparing apples to pears). I expanded it to include everybody that helped make up the scene besides lindy hoppers. And of course there are lots of factors, but if you don't think a holier-than-though attitude wasn't a huge part of it, you're kidding yourself. Cheapness was a huge part as well. Even when this scene was booming, they couldn't really sustain many venues consistently because only the loungers and casual onlookers were drinking. For all the bitching we've done about Lo-Fi Lee (sometimes for good reason), he really did work his ass off trying to find us new venues when they'd keep closing down every 6 months. And it's not like he was getting rich off of it.
A perfect storm didn't kill the scene. A perfect storm CREATED the scene.
Then when a large section of the scene decided to turn their noses up at everyone else and refuse to support the bar, causing venues to close down constantly, all the people who were more into the music or other aspects of the scene found other places to go, because it wasn't worth sticking around to put up with that.
And if you don't think peoples' exclusionary attitudes had a HUGE part to do with that, you're fooling yourself. To this day about half the people I mention being in the swing scene to tell me all about how they thought that would be so cool, but they went a few times and just got attitude and never wanted to go back. And that's just the people who actually went, not including all the people they told who said "screw that" and never even bothered to try it. Anyone who's worked in the hospitality field knows exactly how that kind of word of mouth can affect a place. One disgruntled customer makes you lose ten down the road.
Martinis do not contain vodka. —Rachel Maddow
Chivalrous
That's different, because blues dancing is bad, but swing dancing is good. Don't you people pay attention? :roll:
Martinis do not contain vodka. —Rachel Maddow
keyser520
I find it interesting that, while everyone seems to have noticed the name, no one has noticed the fact that this event is put on by the Oberling SWING society. (Look at the logo in the top right)
Their registration is done through the Oswing page
Heck, the ENTIRE website (just look at the url) is on the Oswing hosting....
http://www.oberlin.edu/stuorg/oswing/workshop/
Therefore, if you are going to bash the Blues community for this one event name, then you must also bash the Swing community.
Unless you're going to say "but, wait... that's just ONE swing scene, NOT the entire community"... in which case, I will say "Exactly."
And speaking of names for events... didn't the Swing community put on the Old West Sausage Fest ??? Descriptions for it said: "Guys - Does your dancing ever feel limp, flat, or stale? Looking for that one magic pill which would solve all your performance woes? Old West Sausage Fest is the event for you! This weekend features three days of workshops, main and late night dances, local and national-recognized DJs, and several other activities unique to Old West Sausage Fest."
What about yehoodi's own sausage? http://www.yehoodi.com/sausage/
Now, that is going WAY beyond double meanings...
Let's not have double standard's now. If you are going to bash the name of an event for one genre of dancers, you gotta do the same for all genres ...
Besides, why the big fuss? If you don't like the name of an event, don't go to it. If you don't like the style of the dance of an event, don't go to it. If you don't like the way that the organizers of an event are running that event, then don't go it. There are PLENTY of events out there.
If you haven't been a to blues event in the past 4 years, check out one of the larger ones out there, such as Down Home Blues Shout, Emerald City Blues, Austin Blues Party, or Blues Boot Camp . You may find that blues isn't as bad as you think it is? You'll probably find that a lot of what you do on the swing floor is related to blues.
I started to learn Blues, because it was going to help improve my swing.
(apologies if some of this was actually covered in the past 7 pages and i missed it)
Air
This makes no sense. It's advertised as a blues event - not swing. That's like saying any event Yehoodi puts on has nothing to do with swing because it's not in the url.
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
keyser520
It's an event run by a swing organization. Therefore it is something related to a swing organization. You are trying to bash the blues community at large by an event that isn't even put on by a blues organization, but by a swing organization!
If I use my blues organization to create a lindy event and call it "Swing in to town, Swing Out with someone else's wife", would that reflect negatively on the swing scene? or the blues scene? Or on the organizer?
It's simple logic.
So why are you up in arms about BOOBS, but not about Sausage Fest or Yehoodi's Sausage?
Double standard's?
Addict
Good distinction to make
I don't doubt that's been your experience. Dunno how common it is. FTR, I could care less what happens at a house party(caveat, between consenting adults). If I don't like it, I can change rooms, or change parties for that matter. But what started this conversation is a completely public event. The clips that have been shown are from workshops .. also completely public. Why would people's hypocrisy towards various private events matter?
nereus
I dance becuase I enjoy dancing and music and for that reason only. I am happy to help out here and there to support the community as a whole, but in the end I do it because I enjoy it. I don't enjoy listening to most of the non-blues music that gets played at many blues parties and it doesn't inspire me to dance. Nothing wrong with the music they are playing, I just seem not to have fun at those events.
I think most people dance for the same reason. Some of them don't enjoy listening to delta blues and it doesn't inspire them to dance. To each his own and I place no value judgments on which is better. I am happy that their is an event where they can dance to music that they enjoy and inspires them.
I don't think splintering into smaller groups is necessarily a bad thing. The fact that we can splinter into two groups means both groups are getting larger.
maryx
Yeah and the only creepy leads there were the ones doing "the blues". Also, it was hysterical to watch.
NuitsBlanches
Is this what you meant?
Lindyfest: Lover Man / Steven and Virginie w/ Naomi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMfWtTd7EaM
Honestly, though, (by the way, I think the name is pretty far on the far side from that line of good taste) if you're blues dancing at a lindy event, you likely decided to pick up blues because you saw it at a lindy event.
And, if you've really internalized blues technique, it's also pretty clear in how you dance lindy hop since it greatly increases the range of potential ways to interpret the music (so long as the music's not at the musicaly equivalent of a 100 yard dash).
But, hey, open the hatch on my bomb shelter when you're done, guys. :roll:
-= SLEEPLESS NIGHTS =-
keyser520
While an interesting point, that had nothing to do with my question... which was geared specifically at the topic of bashing this particular event (Boobs) because of it's name and description. I'm seeing severe double standards when people have to bash "BOOBS" but let "Sausage fest" and phrases that obviously refer to a penis having trouble "getting it up" go by without raising so much as a whisper.
I see a double standard in bashing "boobs" on a website that has a whole sub-section dedicated to sausage talk.
It's an obvious case of "Pot.. Kettle... Black"
I am not saying that I approve or disapprove of the names of any of the above events. I'm simply saying that everyone should hold such things to the same standards.
To address your specific post, you talked of all the creepy leads doing what you call "blues". I've been to classes taught by the best national blues instructors, and not a single one of them has had a class about being creepy. In fact, the concepts and moves I've learned from classes from the likes of Damon, Heidi, Ogden, Amanda, Jerry, Kathy, Don West, Falty, etc have helped both my blues and lindy.
I incorporate a whole lot of blues concepts into lindy, yet I have never once been accused of as being a creepy lead (at least, not that I know about..)
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