Quoted from "keyser520"

Quoted from "Air"

Quoted from "keyser520"
Therefore, if you are going to bash the Blues community for this one event, then you must also bash the Swing community.

This makes no sense. It's advertised as a blues event - not swing. That's like saying any event Yehoodi puts on has nothing to do with swing because it's not in the url.

It's an event run by a swing organization. Therefore it is something related to a swing organization.

Right - so if you're a male and you throw a party then it has to be a male oriented party because of course you'd be incapable of knowing how to make females feel welcome. WTF?

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You are trying to bash the blues community at large

Nope - I'm a decent supporter of the blues community but a basher of stupid events that exemplify poor decisions and behaviors.

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by an event that isn't even put on by a blues organization, but by a swing organization!

Who cares who puts it on? If it's a blues event it's a blues event. If it's a swing event it's a swing event. If it's a crossover event it's a crossover event. Why would you assume a few swing dancers are incapable of organizing a blues event? If the organizers are making every effort to call it a blues event why would you say it's a swing event?

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If I use my blues organization to create a lindy event and call it "Swing in to town, Swing Out with someone else's wife", would that reflect negatively on the swing scene?

Yes. If you call it a swing event I'm going to assume it's a swing event. If you want to advertise your swing event with a 'swinger' overtone than I know I would not be going but there are a few people who would gladly fill my space. By your logic no swing group is capable of organizing a blues event or visa versa though it happens all the time. If a swing group throws a "Putting the touch back into Tango" event with Tango instructors and Tango performers I'll judge it to be a Tango event - not a swing one.

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or the blues scene? Or on the organizer?

What blues scene - if it's a swing event with no mention of blues how could it possibly reflect on the blues community? I'd think the organizer was a dumbass but that's a separate issue.

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It's simple logic

...that you're missing I agree.

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So why are you up in arms about BOOBS, but not about Sausage Fest or Yehoodi's Sausage? Double standard's?

1) Sausage doesn't stand for anything. They didn't try to name it the South Australian United States African Ginormous Event - in which case I would have the exact same arguments though with a larger imprint of my palm against my forehead.

2) The vernacular concerning 'sausage fest' has been pretty well established - I've heard dancers complain if there were too many leads that it was like a sausage fest. It's a term used to describe dance scenes, bar scenes, population of online users on certain topics, etc.... A little crass and possibly offensive but still widely used in and out of the scene.

3) The swing scene for the most part deals with a minority of creepy dancers but not creepy scenes and doesn't have to fight perceptions that every event is just a sexfest. So when an event calls itself a blues event and then brings that perception to the forefront by going out of their way to name it that way than that is upsetting since it only reinforces those people who see every blues event as a humpfest and turns off potential dancers who don't want that. Whereas if you call a certain scene a Sausage Fest (or an event for that matter) than it just means there's a lot of guys or it's focused on guys - the description and meaning is not offensive.

Quoted from "Air"
If you want to advertise your swing event with a 'swinger' overtone than I know I would not be going but there are a few people who would gladly fill my space.

I think, George, it would take a few people to fill your space. :)

Wexie:

Have I told... you lately... that I love you? :-P

Wexie, you only think there's hypocrisy, lazy thinking, and self-righteous indignation going on because you used to DJ along with me at those NYC parties...when you remembered to bring your music along...LOL!!!

But, good points Steve.

Was this argument really going on in 2001 (I'm not asking for proof), I just don't remember. I knew that many weren't into blues in NYC, but it didn't seem uh, this heated.

Actually thinking back, the big "finger wagging" seemed to be about the certain exchange(s) that turned scandalous...that and "the party"...

Quoted from "Air"
Right - so if you're a male and you throw a party then it has to be a male oriented party because of course you'd be incapable of knowing how to make females feel welcome. WTF?

Perhaps. Perhaps not. Some males know how to make females feel welcome. Some don't have a clue.

By the same token, some swing dancers know how to throw a blues event, some don't. The same is true the other way around, as well.

You obviously missed the point, so I will attempt to explain it a second time:

I will use your example.

A male--let's call him "Jimmy Bob Joe"--throws a party. Now, being a male, Jimmy Bob Joe KNOWS the kind of things that men like to do. He KNOWS how to throw a kick-ass guy partner. He's gone down in history as throwing the best bachelor parties this side of the Mason Dixon line. But he decides to throw a party for women, instead. He thinks he knows what the party should be. He thinks he knows what should happen at this party. He thinks he knows what kind of name will attract them to his party.

The party he throws has male strippers, lesbian orgies, body shots, naked twister, and a slip 'n slide for good measure.

Some women go to this party. Many don't.

Now, would it be fair of you to say "wow, look at what's going on at that party, that means that ALL women want to see male strippers, have lesbian orgies, and slide down the slip 'n slide naked!"

No! Of course it wouldn't!

This party wasn't what every woman wanted. It was thrown by a male that thought he knew what every woman wanted.

Quoted from "Air"

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You are trying to bash the blues community at large

Nope - I'm a decent supporter of the blues community but a basher of stupid events that exemplify poor decisions and behaviors.

Apologies then... that was aimed at the "collective" you that was trying to do that... such as with the title of this thread.

Quoted from "Air"

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by an event that isn't even put on by a blues organization, but by a swing organization!

Who cares who puts it on? If it's a blues event it's a blues event. If it's a swing event it's a swing event. If it's a crossover event it's a crossover event. Why would you assume a few swing dancers are incapable of organizing a blues event? If the organizers are making every effort to call it a blues event why would you say it's a swing event?

By your logic, if I, as the head of a blues organization, put on a swing event, and call it "naked dance fest", then that means that all swing dancers are into naked public dancing. It would reflect badly on the entire swing scene, because it's a swing event. It would mean that all swing shoot be judged by this event.

I disagree. I say that it means that the organizer of the event and those that attend the event are the ones to be judged by that event.

The reason that it matters who puts it on is quite simple. This thread was started with the purpose of saying "look at the name of this blues event... all blues dancers dance for one reason and one reason only: to have sex on the dance floor." So the fact that it's an event that wasn't put on by a blues organization, but by a swing organization makes a difference.

One can't judge an ENTIRE national scene by an event put an organization that is not part of that scene. One can't judge and ENTIRE national scene by one event, period.

Quoted from "Air"

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If I use my blues organization to create a lindy event and call it "Swing in to town, Swing Out with someone else's wife", would that reflect negatively on the swing scene?

Yes. If you call it a swing event I'm going to assume it's a swing event. If you want to advertise your swing event with a 'swinger' overtone than I know I would not be going but there are a few people who would gladly fill my space. By your logic no swing group is capable of organizing a blues event or visa versa though it happens all the time. If a swing group throws a "Putting the touch back into Tango" event with Tango instructors and Tango performers I'll judge it to be a Tango event - not a swing one.

First off, I never said that someone in the swing scene was incapable of organizing a blues event. I also never said that no blues dancer could organize a swing event. I'm not sure where you got that idea from. There are many examples where one has organized the other and it's been quite successful.

What I DID say was that it's unfair to judge an entire scene based on one single event (no matter who organizes it). You can judge that EVENT. Not the whole scene.

If you are going to judge an entire scene based on events that claim to be from that scene, that someone who wanted to destroy a dance scene (and had the funds available) could throw dance event after dance event after dance event that had sex, sex, more sex, wild parties, drunken orgies -- all done to swing music.

You seem to want to judge the lindy scene based on every single event thrown that claims to be a lindy event. You want to judge the blues scene based on every single event that claims to be blues.

Personally, I judge events based on the organizer(s), instructors, attendees, quality of dance, etc, lump those together as a whole, throw out the outliers, and get a good idea of the scene.

Quoted from "Air"

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or the blues scene? Or on the organizer?

What blues scene - if it's a swing event with no mention of blues how could it possibly reflect on the blues community? I'd think the organizer was a dumbass but that's a separate issue.

Correct, you should judge the the organizer, not the scene.

Quoted from "Air"

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So why are you up in arms about BOOBS, but not about Sausage Fest or Yehoodi's Sausage? Double standard's?

1) Sausage doesn't stand for anything. They didn't try to name it the South Australian United States African Ginormous Event - in which case I would have the exact same arguments though with a larger imprint of my palm against my forehead.

Have you looked at the advertisements for that event? Perhaps you didn't read the quote I put in my first post?

"Guys - Does your dancing ever feel limp, flat, or stale? Looking for that one magic pill which would solve all your performance woes? Old West Sausage Fest is the event for you! This weekend features three days of workshops, main and late night dances, local and national-recognized DJs, and several other activities unique to Old West Sausage Fest."

The entire reason the event was names Sausage Fest was because it was an event for MEN, and they used the idea "sausages" to allow for descriptions of the penile nature.

So, if the argument is "BAD EVENT, because the name spells BOOBS" then why aren't you yelling "BAD EVENT, because the name talks about PENISES!"

But if you want one that spells out something, what about EatME?

Quoted from "Air"
2) The vernacular concerning 'sausage fest' has been pretty well established - I've heard dancers complain if there were too many leads that it was like a sausage fest. It's a term used to describe dance scenes, bar scenes, population of online users on certain topics, etc.... A little crass and possibly offensive but still widely used in and out of the scene.

And the term "BOOBS" is also widely used. So what's your point?

Again, methinks I smell double standards.

Quoted from "Air"
3) The swing scene for the most part deals with a minority of creepy dancers but not creepy scenes and doesn't have to fight perceptions that every event is just a sexfest. So when an event calls itself a blues event and then brings that perception to the forefront by going out of their way to name it that way than that is upsetting since it only reinforces those people who see every blues event as a humpfest and turns off potential dancers who don't want that. Whereas if you call a certain scene a Sausage Fest (or an event for that matter) than it just means there's a lot of guys or it's focused on guys - the description and meaning is not offensive.

The Lindy scene used to have a bad rep as well. It grew out of it (for the most part). Eventually, the same will happen to Blues as we slowly but surely weed out the creepy/bad people, tar and feather the instructors and organizers that are promoting "bad" blues, and help everyone get off their debate stands and back on the dance floor having fun.. DANCING.

Quoted from "Dr. Feelgood"
Wexie, you only think there's hypocrisy, lazy thinking, and self-righteous indignation going on because you used to DJ along with me at those NYC parties...when you remembered to bring your music along...LOL!!!

Hold on a second. I may have DJed at blues parties, but as you know, I'm definitely not a "blues DJ." I have my reputation to uphold.

LOL, yes Wex...I've heard that about you :D.

Quoted from "Chivalrous"

Quoted from "Marcelo"
In any case, the infighting that ate the scene alive was completely personal, and it had nothing to do with HOW you danced. Shunning neoswingers and moving the dance towards traditional Lindy Hop didn't kill the scene the way Chiv implies. It was more of a perfect storm - the fad died out, the venues dried up, and people hated each other anyway.

Actually you were the one who set up the neoswing/lindy hop opposition and claimed victory over the state of the scene today (granted LA and NY are not the same scene so we could be comparing apples to pears). I expanded it to include everybody that helped make up the scene besides lindy hoppers. And of course there are lots of factors, but if you don't think a holier-than-though attitude wasn't a huge part of it, you're kidding yourself. Cheapness was a huge part as well. Even when this scene was booming, they couldn't really sustain many venues consistently because only the loungers and casual onlookers were drinking. For all the bitching we've done about Lo-Fi Lee (sometimes for good reason), he really did work his ass off trying to find us new venues when they'd keep closing down every 6 months. And it's not like he was getting rich off of it. A perfect storm didn't kill the scene. A perfect storm CREATED the scene. Then when a large section of the scene decided to turn their noses up at everyone else and refuse to support the bar, causing venues to close down constantly, all the people who were more into the music or other aspects of the scene found other places to go, because it wasn't worth sticking around to put up with that. And if you don't think peoples' exclusionary attitudes had a HUGE part to do with that, you're fooling yourself. To this day about half the people I mention being in the swing scene to tell me all about how they thought that would be so cool, but they went a few times and just got attitude and never wanted to go back. And that's just the people who actually went, not including all the people they told who said "screw that" and never even bothered to try it. Anyone who's worked in the hospitality field knows exactly how that kind of word of mouth can affect a place. One disgruntled customer makes you lose ten down the road.

That may be how it was in NY. I don't think it was like that in LA. At least not to the extent you're talking about.

Quoted from "Dr. Feelgood"
Was this argument really going on in 2001 (I'm not asking for proof), I just don't remember. I knew that many weren't into blues in NYC, but it didn't seem uh, this heated. Actually thinking back, the big "finger wagging" seemed to be about the certain exchange(s) that turned scandalous...that and "the party"...

Yeah, that sounds about right. But even then, the problem was with Lindy Exchanges with stupid double entendre names and more specifically the blues rooms at those exchanges... like that one certain exchange that I believe you're referencing.

I don't think this is the exact same argument that's always being repeated. If we look at this event as a National one and give it as much weight as we would to Blues Shout, then maybe.... but this is a bunch of grown ups reacting to a college party with a silly name.

However, all the defensiveness from the first few pages is sooooo 2003!

As the creator and organizer of Old West Sausage Fest, thanks for proving that my advertising worked and it was memorable along with quotable. It only appears, though, that you're grasping for straws when using my event as an example. At least with Yehoodi's sausage and OWSF, you intuitively understand the focus. And then there is Oberlin's unfortunately named blues event. What's their focus? Juvenile naming conventions - check. And don't get me started regarding their instructor choices. Anyway, back to debating the issues, Yehoodites.

What does this prove? That Lindy Hopping people [bleep!] around at parties (like most young people a few times in their lives)? Ok. Yeah, sometimes they do.

But that behavior is not inherent in the dance itself. Moves like the ones in the picture above cannot be found in Lindy Hop, where no doubt, those moves are "totally cool" in "blues dancing."

Beckto, to call much of what you're seeing "partner dancing", blues or otherwise is a stretch...even for you.

Let's just call it - "movement"...shall we?

Steve...was this the party I missed...LOL? Damn, I went to the previous two...can't recall why I missed that one...

Wow, those pictures remind me of my pre-dance days in Rocky Horror. Ah, such good times...such wonderful depravity.

Quoted from "Wexie"
Thank you Beckto, you made my point about the double standard brilliantly.

Is it a double standard though? Maybe it's more apples and oranges. I would argue that a private party is a whole different beast than a public dancing event where you pay admission. In theory there are newbies who are coming to blues dances, etc. Whereas if this was a party hosted by someone who invited friends or whatever, even if there were a few random strangers there it's not like people off the street could come in.

A public dance event should be held to a higher standard than a private party.

Timely bump

Do I dislike Blues Dancing

Quoted from "WeOwnYou"
You are wrong. I'm sorry but you are. I've been sitting here since november reading people's posts about how wrong it is to lable lindy hop "lindy hop". How lables are wrong, how its all creative movement. How blues dancing is not sexually driven...or has anything todo with 'sexy' at all. How no one understands blues and its more then anyone knows. I'm sorry...but your wrong. It's posts like: ...

Quoted from "some crazy dude"
my private blues dance lesson, the instructor said " be so committed to your partner, that just holding still together and feeling each others breathing for the entire song would be enough for an awesome dance! "Enjoy the stillness!" That's some serious food for dance thought!! More heart, less moves ... I totally agree!"

Are just getting out of hand. Are we suppose to believe that standing on the floor chest to chest, listening to each other breath staying connected witout moving to the music is still swing dancing. So why even have contests?! If the guy next to me is throwing out his best moves ...but some other dude is just standing there with his partner...they are at the same level?! But the guy standing there with his partner is expressing himself to the music......and its called lindy hop! Your wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. There was a dance. Many years ago. It was the hybrid of a few dances. They gave it a name /lable, and if you did anything else and called it that, they would laugh at you (and in some cases, beat you down). Yes, Lindy hop is an expression. But its the medium of the expression of art. Soon to some of you people, me doing water color painting on the dance floor will be considered swing dancing.WTF!? At what point is it even swing dancing anymore? Your just wrong...get over it. It's people like you who say "there are no losers" "everone is special" "No one is ugly". Just cause some people can't excel at something...no need to call their lack of ability their personal expression.