Originally posted Friday, March 21, 2008 (4 years ago)
Quoted from "Addict" I'd say there are legitimate dances to it. And there's no grand-daddy king champion badass of a dance like Lindy Hop is to the swing dance genre. Since there's no defining paradigm, there's room for all sorts of other stuff to pop up.
Please note there's nothing positive or negative about the above statement. It is in no way a value judgement.
Ah, but there is a granddaddy of dances for the genre.
Originally posted Saturday, March 22, 2008 (4 years ago)
I've been blues dancing- yes, even at parties- for a while, now. And I have never. Ever. Not once. EVER. witnessed or experienced ANYTHING on the level of those pictures in ANY sort of blues dancing context, party or not.
Originally posted Saturday, March 22, 2008 (4 years ago)
Quoted from "Marcelo"
Is it a double standard though? Maybe it's more apples and oranges. I would argue that a private party is a whole different beast than a public dancing event where you pay admission. In theory there are newbies who are coming to blues dances, etc. Whereas if this was a party hosted by someone who invited friends or whatever, even if there were a few random strangers there it's not like people off the street could come in.
A public dance event should be held to a higher standard than a private party.
Quoted from "Addict"
I don't doubt that's been your experience. Dunno how common it is. FTR, I could care less what happens at a house party(caveat, between consenting adults). If I don't like it, I can change rooms, or change parties for that matter. But what started this conversation is a completely public event. The clips that have been shown are from workshops .. also completely public. Why would people's hypocrisy towards various private events matter?
Quoted from "Wexie"
In most cities, blues parties are primarily held in people's homes and not at public venues. In NY, it is only in the last year or so that the blues community started having events in public venues. Yet this discussion has been happening since way before there were so many public events. The reputation was born from private parties, and therefore, it is completely relevant.
I think there is a lot of hypocrisy, lazy thinking, and self-righteous indignation going on.
Originally posted Saturday, March 22, 2008 (4 years ago)
Quoted from "dormouse" Ah, but there is a granddaddy of dances for the genre.
I suspect you have more to say on the subject. Perhaps everyone else has already heard it, but I'm not sure I have. If you care to elaborate, I'm listening.
And Wexie, thanks for the photos, I'll have to stop going to blues and start going to more Lindy parties, they look like more fun!
And to those of you who think we should be attacking the people who are grinding it and calling it blues, I agree. Please point them out to me, and I'll beat their heads in. Unfortunately, even though I go to the vast majority of blues events, I haven't seen them. I'll keep searching.
Originally posted Saturday, March 22, 2008 (4 years ago)
Quoted from "Wexie" I think there is a lot of hypocrisy, lazy thinking, and self-righteous indignation going on.
From whom, exactly? Name names or something because there's a lot of different facets, a lot of interested parties. Y'all are making it sound like we're a bunch of prudish puritans who are attacking blues because it's immoral or something. The most self-righteous indignation seems to me to have come from the blues purists who are attacking us for looking at this event and calling it "blues," the same blues purists who hop on every thread when someone mentions blues dancing negatively to school them in what's right and wrong about blues dancing.
Look, I remember attending a dance event that held a "Boobie Balboa Contest." And sure, the BOOBS event feels that way too - just some silly college-age fun. I'm not going to knock that. But it's still a silly name (in the same way BABBLE is). I'm not offended, I'm not upset at the debauchery. But I am going to point and laugh at silliness. And besides, I'll be full on ready to admit that I would have found that funny and exciting to go to when I was like 19 or 20. I don't feel that way now, my life and priorities have changed to the point where I don't seek sexual gratification from the dancing scene. But you're telling me I can't be an old curmudgeon and say "Damn kids with your stupid names?" It's Yehoodi - I don't think there's anything wrong with laughing at things like that, even if once you might have been less inclined to do so. I'm just having a little fun on a message board.
Most importantly, the event's existence is telling because of the CONTEXT. It's a blues event that represents all the things that purists like petalscutiegirl hate about the state of the blues dancing scene - a scene they're trying to grow and change from within. BOOBS ain't helping, you know? I thought that that aspect of it was quite funny - for all the work and effort that people like petals spend on trying to move the scene in a specific direction, there's this silly stupid event that represents the exact opposite. That's what makes it such a humorous notion. And I don't think there's anything wrong with Swifty pointing that out. Is he trying to get a rise out of certain people? Of course! But then again, given the attitude those people tend to have, it's fun to poke them with a stick every now and then.
Quoted from "daveola" And to those of you who think we should be attacking the people who are grinding it and calling it blues, I agree. Please point them out to me, and I'll beat their heads in. Unfortunately, even though I go to the vast majority of blues events, I haven't seen them. I'll keep searching.
I believe Swifty posted video on page 2.
I would say to all folks involved - Lighten up, find the funny both in yourself and your dancing. All of us vintage purists used to go to Monsters of Swing and have a neoswingtastic time and then make fun of it later. We didn't take ourselves so seriously. And neither should you. :)
Originally posted Saturday, March 22, 2008 (4 years ago)
Quoted from "redbean" I've been blues dancing- yes, even at parties- for a while, now. And I have never. Ever. Not once. EVER. witnessed or experienced ANYTHING on the level of those pictures in ANY sort of blues dancing context, party or not.
Ever.
The pictures that Wexie posted, while titillating, were from a "Bacchanal Party"- it was EXACTLY as advertised. Exactly. There is no MFing double standard here, Wex, sorry. If I am invited to a 'bring your pasties' party, and then get offended by people wearing pasties and getting drunk and being crazy, that is my own damn fault.
However, if I am invited to a blues dance, and I am told, "No, no, it's really about the dancing, it's totally not creepy and we really care about the dance," and then I walk into the party and people are making out while dancing, I see someone using his boner to lead his follow (seriously,) and then they announce that there will soon be jello-wrestling out back....well, let's just say I am pretty pissed because, call me crazy, I was invited to dance and this is what I got.
More than anything this is BORING, if you want to know the truth, because dancing is more interesting to me than people trying to get some on the dancefloor. Which is fine, btw, if what you want is to go get your wheels turned, but I prefer to dance, and really don't enjoy the blues of the contact improv, i am going to eat your soul variety.
I gotta say, BOOBS does me a huge favor in letting me know what kind of event it's going to be. Mostly now, when considering events to go to, I look to see who is involved with the planning and instruction. We all know who does what kind of blues at this point, so it's really easy to weed out the events that would make my skin crawl.
Originally posted Saturday, March 22, 2008 (4 years ago)
BTW, I never said I was offended by it. What offended me was the attempted justification of "well, this was a private party, but this would be perfectly acceptable at a blues dance event".
And I was simply pointing that, no, that's not the case. Even at BOOBS, I'd venture.
Originally posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 (4 years ago)
So, I'm one of the organizers for Big Outstanding Oberlin Blues Spectacular...and I just wanted to say that due to the negative publicity that our event has received, we have decided to change the name to just Oberlin Blues Spectacular. If you check the website now, you will find it reflects such changes. (www.oberlin.edu/stuorg/oswing)
So I wanted to respond to some of what people have been saying about our event. We did not intend to offend any members of the Blues community, promote a negative or overly sexualized image of blues. The name was a joke, one that we thought was funny, if slightly immature. But if the name is overly offensive to too many people, then we really don't want to upset a large number of people.
It was not as if the sole object of having a workshop was to call it BOOBS. Actually, the idea for the name came after we had already selected our instructors and band for the weekend. The driving force behind our event is not to sexualize blues, but to bring some quality blues instruction to Oberlin to diversify our swing scene. The idea for BOOBS came later, with the hope that people would be more likely to remember BOOBS than Oberlin Blues Workshop.
Clearly, in attracting more attention, we have succeeded. I think that now we have gotten much more national publicity than we would have had otherwise. So, on behalf of Oswing, I would like to apologize for having offended anyone with calling our workshop BOOBS. It is now just Oberlin Blues Spectucular, and we are still really excited about it and hope that anyone who reads this forum might consider coming out.
-Bryne
Co-Chair Oberlin Swing Society
one of the organizers for the event formerly known as Big Outstanding Oberlin Blues Spectacular which has been re-christened Oberlin Blues Spectacular
Originally posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 (4 years ago)
Quoted from "lilieblue"
The pictures that Wexie posted, while titillating, were from a "Bacchanal Party"- it was EXACTLY as advertised. Exactly. There is no MFing double standard here, Wex, sorry. If I am invited to a 'bring your pasties' party, and then get offended by people wearing pasties and getting drunk and being crazy, that is my own damn fault.
However, if I am invited to a blues dance, and I am told, "No, no, it's really about the dancing, it's totally not creepy and we really care about the dance," and then I walk into the party and people are making out while dancing, I see someone using his boner to lead his follow (seriously,) and then they announce that there will soon be jello-wrestling out back....well, let's just say I am pretty pissed because, call me crazy, I was invited to dance and this is what I got.
Heather, I understand that point, and it is 100 valid. I was making completely different points.
There are people who have called the type of behavior in question as inappropriate and dirty and have suggested that there is something inherent to blues dancing that causes this behavior, and that is why they don't go to blues events. I have said repeatedly on these boards that I have seen no such debauchery at blues parties in NY, and what I do see at blues parties, pales in comparison to what I have seen Lindy Hoppers do at private parties and gatherings.
There are people both you and I know who have said specifically that they would not go to blues dances because they are "dirty and creepy." I have simply been making the point, they say they have a problem with the behavior in general, but what they are really saying is "not with those people." I don't agree with character assassination, and I view this constant labeling of the blues community as a form of that... particularly when there is a lot of "pot meet kettle" going on.
One of the reason I love Mouth, is she is not afraid of speaking her mind. She says " I have no issue with the debauchery and I have no issue dancing close with people, I just want it to be with people I know." She is owning her own feelings and personal sense of boundaries, and has no need to engage in the character assassination of a whole group of people in the process.
Finally, I would like to point out that there are a lot of people who are working tirelessly to build the blues community in a way that addresses these criticisms, and this type of thread makes their job harder, and is a subtle form of sabotage. There was no ambivalence with this thread. If you don't like blues dancing, great don't go. But I have wonder what prompts people to go out of their way to point out the blues communities warts so gleefully? I find the whole "tough love" explanation absolute bullsh!t. People have a bone to pick for some reason, and I'm not exactly sure what that is about. It's as if they are offended blues exists at all and they want to see it fail. If you don't want to be part of the solution, fine; you don't have to choose to be part of the problem.
The blues community is ultimately not separate from the Lindy Hop community. (90 of blues dancers are Lindy Hoppers.) They are Siamese twins, and this conflict is like watching Siamese twins in a fist fight. I think the outcome of that is pretty clear.
I don't do Balboa. I don't really blues dance. I don't Charleston. But I am really glad that all these dances exist and support them all because I think the diversity is excellent for our community.
Those who have criticized blues have made some really excellent points in this thread. However, this topic could have been raised in a completely different way, that actually could have been quite constructive. It is a pity that did not happen.
Originally posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 (4 years ago)
Quoted from "brynbryn" So, I'm one of the organizers for Big Outstanding Oberlin Blues Spectacular...and I just wanted to say that due to the negative publicity that our event has received, we have decided to change the name to just Oberlin Blues Spectacular. If you check the website now, you will find it reflects such changes. (www.oberlin.edu/stuorg/oswing)
So I wanted to respond to some of what people have been saying about our event. We did not intend to offend any members of the Blues community, promote a negative or overly sexualized image of blues. The name was a joke, one that we thought was funny, if slightly immature. But if the name is overly offensive to too many people, then we really don't want to upset a large number of people.
It was not as if the sole object of having a workshop was to call it BOOBS. Actually, the idea for the name came after we had already selected our instructors and band for the weekend. The driving force behind our event is not to sexualize blues, but to bring some quality blues instruction to Oberlin to diversify our swing scene. The idea for BOOBS came later, with the hope that people would be more likely to remember BOOBS than Oberlin Blues Workshop.
Clearly, in attracting more attention, we have succeeded. I think that now we have gotten much more national publicity than we would have had otherwise. So, on behalf of Oswing, I would like to apologize for having offended anyone with calling our workshop BOOBS. It is now just Oberlin Blues Spectucular, and we are still really excited about it and hope that anyone who reads this forum might consider coming out.
-Bryne Ulmschneider
Co-Chair Oberlin Swing Society
one of the organizers for the event formerly known as Big Outstanding Oberlin Blues Spectacular which has been re-christened Oberlin Blues Spectacular
Wow. Didn't see that coming. Ladies and gentlemen, the free market at work.
Originally posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 (4 years ago)
Horray for name change!!
As someone who used to be in a group immature college students running a swing club, there was a lot of temptation in the group to use sexual references. That kind of thing is funny to 18 year olds, and hopefully they grow out of it (as I know I did).
Also, just to keep in in context-the method of advertising at a college and to college students is often different than to the general dance population. I also went to a small private college where we would to resort to just about ANYTHING to get people to come to classes/events. And to be honest, using immature sexual references (and food, don't forget the food!!) often works for youngsters. Not to support the former name of BOOBS, because I wouldn't feel comfortable attending a blues event with that name, but college run events aren't necessarily like non-college events. I remember our logic back in the day being somewhat like 'we'll trick the guys into coming by using sexual references and bribing them with food, and then hope that they end up liking the dance for what it is'.
So, I understand where Oberlin was coming from with their name, but I am thrilled that the name(and the boob graphic) has been changed!
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
Originally posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 (4 years ago)
Wex- thanks for the clarification. I think this has been a great way (if not subtle one) to bring about discussion among the community. Obviously this is not a dead horse because you see how passionate the voices are in speaking about it. I think to know that these preconceptions still do exist and sometimes exist for good reason is vitally important for organizers of blues dances, classes and events (I include myself in this group) to know about and recognize. I guess I don't understand where you are seeing malicious intent. I work tirelessly in the blues scene and this thread has been more helpful than anything else I can think of in recent memory in getting a discussion going and making real, if small adjustments.
Originally posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 (4 years ago)
Let me know next time, Hot Stuff...I'd like to be there 8)...
Now that the B.O.O.B.S. Witch Hunt is dying down, how did Swifty find
this event in the first place since it appears to be a college-based dance
thing? I haven't seen it listed anywhere and anyone's calender...
Heather, I'd love to think this was a positive conversation in order to
help "perceptions" and "make small changes even if they are small at
first. But it doesn't really feel that way. And as I've mentioned twice
before here - there is an event in NYC coming up where blues is promoted
and represented. Is there a reason for out-of-towners to want to check
it out to come and get their lindy, balboa AND blues?
One would like to think so...but people may be wondering.
Originally posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 (4 years ago)
Quoted from "Marcelo" LA and NYC are weird. They're very similar in many ways, yet so different in others. LA's priorities are different - here it's more about the history and the lifestyle, going to the historical ballrooms, listening to the right music, doing the dance accurately, wearing the clothes, etc. It always has been. I remember in 1999 when you'd go out dancing everyone would be in vintage clothes - they would actually be looking at old Sears catalogues and photos for examples of what to get.
How did LindyGroove fit into that whole dynamic? It seemed like it had a completely different focus the one time I was there (back in 2004).
Originally posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 (4 years ago)
Quoted from "Dr. Feelgood" Now that the B.O.O.B.S. Witch Hunt is dying down...
I also want to take the opportunity to express my relief about the changes at FMWL. As a DJ for the first one, I was not happy with the way they handled things and because of that I refused to be part of the second.
I am most happy this year the event was the way you described it, DF.
Originally posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 (4 years ago)
Quoted from "Dr. Feelgood" Let me know next time, Hot Stuff...I'd like to be there 8)...
Now that the B.O.O.B.S. Witch Hunt is dying down, how did Swifty find
this event in the first place since it appears to be a college-based dance
thing? I haven't seen it listed anywhere and anyone's calender...
Heather, I'd love to think this was a positive conversation in order to
help "perceptions" and "make small changes even if they are small at
first. But it doesn't really feel that way. And as I've mentioned twice
before here - there is an event in NYC coming up where blues is promoted
and represented. Is there a reason for out-of-towners to want to check
it out to come and get their lindy, balboa AND blues?
One would like to think so...but people may be wondering.
I'm not Heather, nor am I involved with the organization of any event in NYC although I attend as many of them as I can. But I'd like to suggest that you post your questions/concerns on the BABBLE thread for the organizers to respond to you.
http://www.yehoodi.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=916765 916765
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Originally posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 (4 years ago)
Wow... leave for Spring Break for a couple days and all hell breaks loose over blues.
As one of the only college students on the board who is active in both the blues and lindy community, I fell like I should chime in.
For starters... WOW. That's ridiculous! There is absolutely no reason to name an event that. When you do that? You're just looking for a shock value. I can see in a college scene where a shock value would be attractive for an organizer.
The problem when doing this in a blues scene, is that, while you are getting your shock value that is doable in a lindy scene, in a blues scene, you're already dealing with a negative sentiment.
It's been said over and over by serious dancers, organizer, DJs and teachers even on this board that we're sick and tired of the sexual connotation associated with blues dancing. We understand where blues came from... it was sexual, and while we know this, we're trying to change it.
Unfortunately, not everybody holds the same sentiments as we do. This is seen on a state, community, and national level. I come from a scene (not Denver, Fort Collins- Colorado State University) where people do use blues dancing as foreplay... there's no denying it. It's a bunch of horny college kids dancing on at a regular Saturday night dance. And I'll also admit that "Hotel California" is the favorite song here and that when drag blues music is played, we get requests for blues music... ::shakes head::
But, if you travel an hour south to Denver you find a totally different type of scene. You find a group of people blues dancing in almost the same setting as the lindy scene. And it's pretty much the same group of people actually. The only different in between the two, is that the blues scene is smaller, only has 1 bi-weekly event, so therefore it still has some house parties. There is far less "hooking up" as their was years ago... this is a change. Don't close your eyes to this!
In changing a scene, it takes time!!! Keep this in mind!!! This change can take months, even years! I'm going through this right now. I personally am attempting to change my college scene, but I've honestly started to give up. You get in the mind set of "why bother" when you can drive an hour south to good dancing that I love. Also, I leave here in December to move back to Denver. College scenes have a 4-5 yr turn over rate when their scene isn't contained within a larger city scene. Therefore, they're always on a constant search for new dancers. Sadly, they often turn to sex appeal to get these dancers in.
Please do not claim Mihai as a national instructor. If you'd like my reasoning, please PM me. While I don't like nor respect him for many reasons, I don't feel like it is my place to bad mouth him on a national board. I don't have a national voice like Liz, Damon, Keither, Martin and Steven do.
The video of Topher and Lessa isn't blues dancing. I think anybody on this board would support that statement. The title alone says it's aerials, flying, or something. Those are tricks... if anybody did that to me on a social floor, I'd probably walk away if not hit them prior.
I think the point most people are missing is WE AGREE. Dumb name, doesn't help the blues scene as a whole in any respect. This event is ridiculous! If I knew the people who were putting it on, I'd call them out personally and give them a teachin'! And I wouldn't be the only one to do this. But it's out... there's nothing anybody can do about it now besides a nice slap on the hand. There have been many threads on Gargle Blaster Blues (probably as close as it gets as a yehoodi style forum for blues) about what we can do as a community to make changes. We all wish this change happened over night, but it doesn't. It is often newer members of our community that continue this stereotype, not experienced ones. At this point, we're all just trying to lead by example. Yes, sometimes the message gets skewed, but that hasn't happened in the lindy scene? You can't say that.
Each scene is different, we can only just hope for the best and continue to try and convince people what blues dancing really is... not foreplay. If you haven't been to a national blues event, you probably should before you open your mouth about something you don't know about.
And now that I've written all that and finally gotten to the end of this thread... it's practically a moot point.
Originally posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 (4 years ago)
Quoted from "lilieblue" and then they announce that there will soon be jello-wrestling out back
Gee, I always miss out on all the really good parties....
Seriously, though, in this same vein I think something should be done about the Lucky Chocolate Company's distributing free "Get Lucky" bumper stickers in their store. I mean, it's all right if you're into that sort of thing, but for those of us who believe that chocolate is a pure gourmet delight and not some kind of precursor to a wild night of sex as some people seem to think (especially around February 14), we prefer not to be associated with that sort of thing. Especially when impressionable youngsters might come into the store. There's even a picture of a child on their web page, along with their "Go ahead, get Lucky!" trademark!!!! http://www.luckychocolates.com/default.asp
It gives chocolate a bad name. Chocolate should be reserved for making Easter bunnies.
*****************************
Hot rhythm stimulates me!
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Originally posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 (4 years ago)
Quoted from "Dr. Feelgood" On facebook? So they weren't really advertising on dance forums,
just out to their peers/friends?
We have been advertising on some forums, but only regional forums close to where we are, so Ohio and Michigan mostly. Although, thanks to all of you fine people, our event has received WAY more publicity than we could have generated ourselves.
-Bryne
(once again, one of the organizers for the event formerly known as B.O.O.B.S)
Why Blues Dancers get such great respect
Big Outstanding Oberlin Blues Spectacular Seriously, what the [bleep!]?
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I don't know about anyone else, but I could use a few thousand more words. :disguise:
Martinis do not contain vodka. —Rachel Maddow
Ah, but there is a granddaddy of dances for the genre.
Wexie - Thank you.
Beckto - Thank you even more for proving EVERY point Wexie made. You rock. No seriously.
I have to agree with Martin here. And Bryan. Shocker, I know.
I've been blues dancing- yes, even at parties- for a while, now. And I have never. Ever. Not once. EVER. witnessed or experienced ANYTHING on the level of those pictures in ANY sort of blues dancing context, party or not.
Ever.
I suspect you have more to say on the subject. Perhaps everyone else has already heard it, but I'm not sure I have. If you care to elaborate, I'm listening.
I think this thread is a bust.
Wow.
This thread is why I stay away from forums.
Thanks for the reminder.
You people have lost it.
http://saintvitus.com/Jazz.html
And Wexie, thanks for the photos, I'll have to stop going to blues and start going to more Lindy parties, they look like more fun!
And to those of you who think we should be attacking the people who are grinding it and calling it blues, I agree. Please point them out to me, and I'll beat their heads in. Unfortunately, even though I go to the vast majority of blues events, I haven't seen them. I'll keep searching.
From whom, exactly? Name names or something because there's a lot of different facets, a lot of interested parties. Y'all are making it sound like we're a bunch of prudish puritans who are attacking blues because it's immoral or something. The most self-righteous indignation seems to me to have come from the blues purists who are attacking us for looking at this event and calling it "blues," the same blues purists who hop on every thread when someone mentions blues dancing negatively to school them in what's right and wrong about blues dancing.
Look, I remember attending a dance event that held a "Boobie Balboa Contest." And sure, the BOOBS event feels that way too - just some silly college-age fun. I'm not going to knock that. But it's still a silly name (in the same way BABBLE is). I'm not offended, I'm not upset at the debauchery. But I am going to point and laugh at silliness. And besides, I'll be full on ready to admit that I would have found that funny and exciting to go to when I was like 19 or 20. I don't feel that way now, my life and priorities have changed to the point where I don't seek sexual gratification from the dancing scene. But you're telling me I can't be an old curmudgeon and say "Damn kids with your stupid names?" It's Yehoodi - I don't think there's anything wrong with laughing at things like that, even if once you might have been less inclined to do so. I'm just having a little fun on a message board.
Most importantly, the event's existence is telling because of the CONTEXT. It's a blues event that represents all the things that purists like petalscutiegirl hate about the state of the blues dancing scene - a scene they're trying to grow and change from within. BOOBS ain't helping, you know? I thought that that aspect of it was quite funny - for all the work and effort that people like petals spend on trying to move the scene in a specific direction, there's this silly stupid event that represents the exact opposite. That's what makes it such a humorous notion. And I don't think there's anything wrong with Swifty pointing that out. Is he trying to get a rise out of certain people? Of course! But then again, given the attitude those people tend to have, it's fun to poke them with a stick every now and then.
I believe Swifty posted video on page 2.
I would say to all folks involved - Lighten up, find the funny both in yourself and your dancing. All of us vintage purists used to go to Monsters of Swing and have a neoswingtastic time and then make fun of it later. We didn't take ourselves so seriously. And neither should you. :)
The pictures that Wexie posted, while titillating, were from a "Bacchanal Party"- it was EXACTLY as advertised. Exactly. There is no MFing double standard here, Wex, sorry. If I am invited to a 'bring your pasties' party, and then get offended by people wearing pasties and getting drunk and being crazy, that is my own damn fault.
However, if I am invited to a blues dance, and I am told, "No, no, it's really about the dancing, it's totally not creepy and we really care about the dance," and then I walk into the party and people are making out while dancing, I see someone using his boner to lead his follow (seriously,) and then they announce that there will soon be jello-wrestling out back....well, let's just say I am pretty pissed because, call me crazy, I was invited to dance and this is what I got.
More than anything this is BORING, if you want to know the truth, because dancing is more interesting to me than people trying to get some on the dancefloor. Which is fine, btw, if what you want is to go get your wheels turned, but I prefer to dance, and really don't enjoy the blues of the contact improv, i am going to eat your soul variety.
I gotta say, BOOBS does me a huge favor in letting me know what kind of event it's going to be. Mostly now, when considering events to go to, I look to see who is involved with the planning and instruction. We all know who does what kind of blues at this point, so it's really easy to weed out the events that would make my skin crawl.
heh. You said "titillating."
BTW, I never said I was offended by it. What offended me was the attempted justification of "well, this was a private party, but this would be perfectly acceptable at a blues dance event".
And I was simply pointing that, no, that's not the case. Even at BOOBS, I'd venture.
Then you are talking about the Portokalos and the Millers :P
So, I'm one of the organizers for Big Outstanding Oberlin Blues Spectacular...and I just wanted to say that due to the negative publicity that our event has received, we have decided to change the name to just Oberlin Blues Spectacular. If you check the website now, you will find it reflects such changes. (www.oberlin.edu/stuorg/oswing) So I wanted to respond to some of what people have been saying about our event. We did not intend to offend any members of the Blues community, promote a negative or overly sexualized image of blues. The name was a joke, one that we thought was funny, if slightly immature. But if the name is overly offensive to too many people, then we really don't want to upset a large number of people.
It was not as if the sole object of having a workshop was to call it BOOBS. Actually, the idea for the name came after we had already selected our instructors and band for the weekend. The driving force behind our event is not to sexualize blues, but to bring some quality blues instruction to Oberlin to diversify our swing scene. The idea for BOOBS came later, with the hope that people would be more likely to remember BOOBS than Oberlin Blues Workshop.
Clearly, in attracting more attention, we have succeeded. I think that now we have gotten much more national publicity than we would have had otherwise. So, on behalf of Oswing, I would like to apologize for having offended anyone with calling our workshop BOOBS. It is now just Oberlin Blues Spectucular, and we are still really excited about it and hope that anyone who reads this forum might consider coming out.
-Bryne Co-Chair Oberlin Swing Society one of the organizers for the event formerly known as Big Outstanding Oberlin Blues Spectacular which has been re-christened Oberlin Blues Spectacular
Heather, I understand that point, and it is 100 valid. I was making completely different points.
There are people who have called the type of behavior in question as inappropriate and dirty and have suggested that there is something inherent to blues dancing that causes this behavior, and that is why they don't go to blues events. I have said repeatedly on these boards that I have seen no such debauchery at blues parties in NY, and what I do see at blues parties, pales in comparison to what I have seen Lindy Hoppers do at private parties and gatherings.
There are people both you and I know who have said specifically that they would not go to blues dances because they are "dirty and creepy." I have simply been making the point, they say they have a problem with the behavior in general, but what they are really saying is "not with those people." I don't agree with character assassination, and I view this constant labeling of the blues community as a form of that... particularly when there is a lot of "pot meet kettle" going on.
One of the reason I love Mouth, is she is not afraid of speaking her mind. She says " I have no issue with the debauchery and I have no issue dancing close with people, I just want it to be with people I know." She is owning her own feelings and personal sense of boundaries, and has no need to engage in the character assassination of a whole group of people in the process.
Finally, I would like to point out that there are a lot of people who are working tirelessly to build the blues community in a way that addresses these criticisms, and this type of thread makes their job harder, and is a subtle form of sabotage. There was no ambivalence with this thread. If you don't like blues dancing, great don't go. But I have wonder what prompts people to go out of their way to point out the blues communities warts so gleefully? I find the whole "tough love" explanation absolute bullsh!t. People have a bone to pick for some reason, and I'm not exactly sure what that is about. It's as if they are offended blues exists at all and they want to see it fail. If you don't want to be part of the solution, fine; you don't have to choose to be part of the problem.
The blues community is ultimately not separate from the Lindy Hop community. (90 of blues dancers are Lindy Hoppers.) They are Siamese twins, and this conflict is like watching Siamese twins in a fist fight. I think the outcome of that is pretty clear.
I don't do Balboa. I don't really blues dance. I don't Charleston. But I am really glad that all these dances exist and support them all because I think the diversity is excellent for our community.
Those who have criticized blues have made some really excellent points in this thread. However, this topic could have been raised in a completely different way, that actually could have been quite constructive. It is a pity that did not happen.
Wow. Didn't see that coming. Ladies and gentlemen, the free market at work.
Good luck with your event! :)
Horray for name change!!
As someone who used to be in a group immature college students running a swing club, there was a lot of temptation in the group to use sexual references. That kind of thing is funny to 18 year olds, and hopefully they grow out of it (as I know I did).
Also, just to keep in in context-the method of advertising at a college and to college students is often different than to the general dance population. I also went to a small private college where we would to resort to just about ANYTHING to get people to come to classes/events. And to be honest, using immature sexual references (and food, don't forget the food!!) often works for youngsters. Not to support the former name of BOOBS, because I wouldn't feel comfortable attending a blues event with that name, but college run events aren't necessarily like non-college events. I remember our logic back in the day being somewhat like 'we'll trick the guys into coming by using sexual references and bribing them with food, and then hope that they end up liking the dance for what it is'.
So, I understand where Oberlin was coming from with their name, but I am thrilled that the name(and the boob graphic) has been changed!
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
All this just reminds me that it's time to have another party.
Wex- thanks for the clarification. I think this has been a great way (if not subtle one) to bring about discussion among the community. Obviously this is not a dead horse because you see how passionate the voices are in speaking about it. I think to know that these preconceptions still do exist and sometimes exist for good reason is vitally important for organizers of blues dances, classes and events (I include myself in this group) to know about and recognize. I guess I don't understand where you are seeing malicious intent. I work tirelessly in the blues scene and this thread has been more helpful than anything else I can think of in recent memory in getting a discussion going and making real, if small adjustments.
Go, yehoodi!
Let me know next time, Hot Stuff...I'd like to be there 8)...
Now that the B.O.O.B.S. Witch Hunt is dying down, how did Swifty find this event in the first place since it appears to be a college-based dance thing? I haven't seen it listed anywhere and anyone's calender...
Heather, I'd love to think this was a positive conversation in order to help "perceptions" and "make small changes even if they are small at first. But it doesn't really feel that way. And as I've mentioned twice before here - there is an event in NYC coming up where blues is promoted and represented. Is there a reason for out-of-towners to want to check it out to come and get their lindy, balboa AND blues?
One would like to think so...but people may be wondering.
Facebook.
On facebook? So they weren't really advertising on dance forums, just out to their peers/friends?
It's a public event on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=9062397179
How did LindyGroove fit into that whole dynamic? It seemed like it had a completely different focus the one time I was there (back in 2004).
Dave
Aha! Thank you, for the clarification.
I also want to take the opportunity to express my relief about the changes at FMWL. As a DJ for the first one, I was not happy with the way they handled things and because of that I refused to be part of the second.
I am most happy this year the event was the way you described it, DF.
I'm not Heather, nor am I involved with the organization of any event in NYC although I attend as many of them as I can. But I'd like to suggest that you post your questions/concerns on the BABBLE thread for the organizers to respond to you. http://www.yehoodi.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=916765 916765
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Wow... leave for Spring Break for a couple days and all hell breaks loose over blues.
As one of the only college students on the board who is active in both the blues and lindy community, I fell like I should chime in.
For starters... WOW. That's ridiculous! There is absolutely no reason to name an event that. When you do that? You're just looking for a shock value. I can see in a college scene where a shock value would be attractive for an organizer.
The problem when doing this in a blues scene, is that, while you are getting your shock value that is doable in a lindy scene, in a blues scene, you're already dealing with a negative sentiment.
It's been said over and over by serious dancers, organizer, DJs and teachers even on this board that we're sick and tired of the sexual connotation associated with blues dancing. We understand where blues came from... it was sexual, and while we know this, we're trying to change it.
Unfortunately, not everybody holds the same sentiments as we do. This is seen on a state, community, and national level. I come from a scene (not Denver, Fort Collins- Colorado State University) where people do use blues dancing as foreplay... there's no denying it. It's a bunch of horny college kids dancing on at a regular Saturday night dance. And I'll also admit that "Hotel California" is the favorite song here and that when drag blues music is played, we get requests for blues music... ::shakes head::
But, if you travel an hour south to Denver you find a totally different type of scene. You find a group of people blues dancing in almost the same setting as the lindy scene. And it's pretty much the same group of people actually. The only different in between the two, is that the blues scene is smaller, only has 1 bi-weekly event, so therefore it still has some house parties. There is far less "hooking up" as their was years ago... this is a change. Don't close your eyes to this!
In changing a scene, it takes time!!! Keep this in mind!!! This change can take months, even years! I'm going through this right now. I personally am attempting to change my college scene, but I've honestly started to give up. You get in the mind set of "why bother" when you can drive an hour south to good dancing that I love. Also, I leave here in December to move back to Denver. College scenes have a 4-5 yr turn over rate when their scene isn't contained within a larger city scene. Therefore, they're always on a constant search for new dancers. Sadly, they often turn to sex appeal to get these dancers in.
Please do not claim Mihai as a national instructor. If you'd like my reasoning, please PM me. While I don't like nor respect him for many reasons, I don't feel like it is my place to bad mouth him on a national board. I don't have a national voice like Liz, Damon, Keither, Martin and Steven do.
The video of Topher and Lessa isn't blues dancing. I think anybody on this board would support that statement. The title alone says it's aerials, flying, or something. Those are tricks... if anybody did that to me on a social floor, I'd probably walk away if not hit them prior.
I think the point most people are missing is WE AGREE. Dumb name, doesn't help the blues scene as a whole in any respect. This event is ridiculous! If I knew the people who were putting it on, I'd call them out personally and give them a teachin'! And I wouldn't be the only one to do this. But it's out... there's nothing anybody can do about it now besides a nice slap on the hand. There have been many threads on Gargle Blaster Blues (probably as close as it gets as a yehoodi style forum for blues) about what we can do as a community to make changes. We all wish this change happened over night, but it doesn't. It is often newer members of our community that continue this stereotype, not experienced ones. At this point, we're all just trying to lead by example. Yes, sometimes the message gets skewed, but that hasn't happened in the lindy scene? You can't say that.
Each scene is different, we can only just hope for the best and continue to try and convince people what blues dancing really is... not foreplay. If you haven't been to a national blues event, you probably should before you open your mouth about something you don't know about.
And now that I've written all that and finally gotten to the end of this thread... it's practically a moot point.
Screw it, I wrote it all, I'm posting it.
Gee, I always miss out on all the really good parties....
Seriously, though, in this same vein I think something should be done about the Lucky Chocolate Company's distributing free "Get Lucky" bumper stickers in their store. I mean, it's all right if you're into that sort of thing, but for those of us who believe that chocolate is a pure gourmet delight and not some kind of precursor to a wild night of sex as some people seem to think (especially around February 14), we prefer not to be associated with that sort of thing. Especially when impressionable youngsters might come into the store. There's even a picture of a child on their web page, along with their "Go ahead, get Lucky!" trademark!!!! http://www.luckychocolates.com/default.asp
It gives chocolate a bad name. Chocolate should be reserved for making Easter bunnies.
***************************** Hot rhythm stimulates me! *****************************
We have been advertising on some forums, but only regional forums close to where we are, so Ohio and Michigan mostly. Although, thanks to all of you fine people, our event has received WAY more publicity than we could have generated ourselves.
-Bryne (once again, one of the organizers for the event formerly known as B.O.O.B.S)
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