Quoted from "Signet"
there's a little bit of overlooking if a homoplasic dance like The Ballroom would be more appropriately labelled "slow partnered vernacular jazz dancing."

You receive two bonus points for your use of the word "homoplasic".

Quoted from "bryn"

Quoted from "Zenin"
This one is fantastic dancing...but what about it is Blues? Classic Jazz steps, into Fox Trot (or One Step), then Bal Swing, a great choreographed floor move, a little free style (although still looking like stylized Bal Swing), and into Lindy just at the end of the clip. Absolutely fantastic dancing! But about it is Blues?

Ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it. Let's take a systematic approach to figuring out whether or not this is blues, shall we? Elements of the Blues Aesthetic, as researched and summarized by Damon Stone:

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1. An athletic, grounded, "Earth as Center" or "get-down" body posture and movement, characterized by the weight being held on the balls of the feet, the knees bent over the balls of the feet, the hips pushed back, and the front of the shoulders or the sternum pitched forward over the knees. In this posture a dancer should be able to step in any direction without having to shift their body first.

Check.

I think you've checked that one off far too quickly. Most of the clip is much more upright in all respects then should honestly fit this criteria. Given Damon's own 51 rule, it fails.

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2. An asymmetry and polyphonic look/feel to the body, characterized by an equality of body parts. No limb or part is given precedence over another, but they all work together both in a simultaneous and serialized fashion. The center of "energy", focus and even weight shifting moves through various parts of the body; polycentric.

Check.

Agreed...although it's an attribute that's common to a much wider selection of dances then simply blues. More on that in a sec.

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3. Rhythmic movement. Not just auditory but visual. Rather than a single rhythm being used in/with the body mutiple meters or rhythms are used. Articulated movement in the torso (chest, rib cage, pelvis, butt) identifying and emphasizing different rhythms.

I'd say so. Especially during the solo bit.

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4. Improvisation between dancers and on their own movements. All based, no... entrenched in the rhythm of the music.

Well it's a choreographed routine, so at the time it was performed, it wasn't improvised (though I'm sure they probably did some improvising to help them devise the choreography). The routine is, however, very rhythmic.

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5. A drawing of the beats, dancing in the space between the beats, pushing and pulling creating a sense of tension both in the body and the body moving through space, while remaining loose and relaxed. The sense of moving through molasses or mud. A relaxed, lazy element to the interaction with the tempo and beats of a song, as if it doesn't matter if you are late, but somehow without seeming to rush always being on time.

Here's where I'm not quite convinced. They're pretty much on top of the music. Is that enough to qualify it as Blues? It's walking a line, maybe, but if the timing had been stretched a little more, I'd say it would definitely be Blues. And as such, I'd say that clip qualifies as an example of what Blues Dance has the potential to look like.

Agreed on the rest except maybe 5. While they are often on top of the music when it calls for it, when the music is tense and drawn out so are they (especially the beginning and bits at the end). But I don't agree with the conclusion. With the exception of a few blues elements thrown in here and there, the majority of the dance, while fantastic, doesn't IMO have much of anything to do with Blues.

The problem with Damon's description of the Blues aesthetic is not that it is wrong, it's that it's incomplete and ambiguous. That's not to say I have a better one, I don't, but that's the point: neither does anyone else. It's much like trying to describe the aesthetics of Jazz. Sure, you can write them down and be "correct", but you'll always be incomplete as well for the fact remains the attributes are not the sole domain of Jazz (or those of the Blues aesthetic the sole domain of Blues). All aspects found in such descriptions can be found just as strong and just as complete in many other styles. Thus like Jazz it's completely possible to display every text book aesthetic of Blues...and still not be Blues. Similarly it's possible to leave quite a few out and still be very, very much Blues. To quote you, "Ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it". :D

This dance, while great, I don't consider on the whole to be Blues. It's not even close.

Quoted from "Beckto"

Quoted from "WiseFolly"
Assymetry refers to the position of the body parts... Does that make any sense?

Ass on the brain. I knew it.

Oh, give me a break! I don't have Firefox at work and didn't have time to spell check it. :P

Fixed.

This is really a separate discussion, but since when does any thread on Yehoodi stay on topic? So...

I'll agree the definition is a little confusing and vague. I've struggled with it myself ever since I first saw it, which is why I've contracted Damon to further educate me on it in person (which he will finally be able to do in a couple of weeks). The trouble is that it's tough to express something physical through words alone. But it's based on extensive research and is basically just a quick summary of the common elements that link this family of dances together.

Quoted from "Phlurg"
Point 2 in particular sounds rather incoherent to me. Asymmetry characterized by equality of body parts? (Asymmetry would imply an inequality or imbalance of some sort.) Both a simultaneous and serialized fashion? (That leaves nothing out and thus isn't saying anything.) Etc...

I've always understood it to mean that because all body parts are given equal importance, asymmetry is possible. For example, my leg might be doing one thing while my arm is doing quite another. Some dances place an emphasis on only one part of the body or require that everything moves collectively, and as a result, that sort of contrast cannot be expressed.

Quoted from "Zenin"
I think you've checked that one off far too quickly. Most of the clip is much more upright in all respects then should honestly fit this criteria. Given Damon's own 51 rule, it fails.

Look again. It may not be incredibly well-pronounced, but they absolutely do have and maintain the posture Damon described. Their weight is on the balls of their feet, their knees are bent over the balls of their feet, their hips are pushed back, their shoulders/sternums are pitched forward over their knees, and they are able to step in any direction without having to shift their bodies first.

Quoted from "Zenin"
Agreed on the rest except maybe 5. While they are often on top of the music when it calls for it, when the music is tense and drawn out so are they (especially the beginning and bits at the end).

It's true that they are accurately reflecting the music. But stretching out a movement on a long note is not the same thing as creating rhythmic tension or a sense of moving through molasses or mud. I never have any doubt that they will get to the next beat on time, or even a little early.

Quoted from "Zenin"
But I don't agree with the conclusion. With the exception of a few blues elements thrown in here and there, the majority of the dance, while fantastic, doesn't IMO have much of anything to do with Blues.

Fair enough, but to be clear, I was referring to the fact that a dance can use ballroomy type moves, can be interesting to watch, and can still be considered Blues.

Quoted from "Marcelo"
Doesn't Lindy Hop satisfy all five of those aesthetic points at times?

There's a reason swing and blues dances are so closely related. They both sprang from the same culture and were affected by many of the same influences. As far as I'm concerned, what separates lindy hop from Blues according to this definition is mainly the music, and by extension, point 5. Swing and Blues, as musical genres, have very different feelings to them. While it's true that Swing is also behind the beat, as it were, Swing is characterized by rhythmic propulsion... the feeling of wanting to drive ahead with the rhythm. Blues, by contrast, is characterized by rhythmic tension, which is that long, drawn out, molasses-type, almost late feeling described in point 5.

Quoted from "bryn"
There's a reason swing and blues dances are so closely related. They both sprang from the same culture and were affected by many of the same influences. As far as I'm concerned, what separates lindy hop from Blues according to this definition is mainly the music, and by extension, point 5. Swing and Blues, as musical genres, have very different feelings to them. While it's true that Swing is also behind the beat, as it were, Swing is characterized by rhythmic propulsion... the feeling of wanting to drive ahead with the rhythm. Blues, by contrast, is characterized by rhythmic tension, which is that long, drawn out, molasses-type, almost late feeling described in point 5.

Damon likes to present this view often as well, but I can't buy it.

There's plenty of swing that's built around rhythmic tension, and plenty of hard driving blues that's built around rhythmic propulsion. This rhythmic tension vs rhythmic propulsion description works well as training wheels for those new to the genres, but it isn't really accurate especially for blues. Blues is built upon a core of tension, but the methods it uses to create that tension are far more sweeping and complex then simply the rhythm. It ignores the rational behind common Blues chord progressions, ignores the rational behind blue notes and blue scales.

In that much it may be a fitting description for blues, considering the irony: While the description may be a useful vehicle for helping someone eventually understand blues, it does so by being so simplistic as to actually be wrong. An odd case where the wrong answer is of more practical use then the right answer. ;-)

Quoted from "bryn"
I wanna say, Zenin, that I'm impressed by the change in your posting style. That being said, however you want to break it down, swing and blues feel different and therefore dancing to each presents different characteristics which I will argue can be represented by the way in which tension is created, used, and released.

Agreed, it's a great conceptual teaching aid and should continue to be used. But I also feel it's actually wrong. Very useful (I use it), but still wrong. ;-)

It's one of many "training wheels" that I realized a while ago many instructors use while teaching dance. To put it bluntly, instructors flat out lie to their students a lot, for their own good. For example in Lindy many teachers drill basic footwork rhythms and placement into their students and put forth the idea that it's the most important aspect of the dance....which couldn't be any farther from the truth. But...you can't learn connection, momentum, stretch, redirection etc if you're still thinking about where to place your feet when.

It's just like riding a bike: What's the most important aspect of riding a bike? Balance. What's the first thing we do with a new rider? Add training wheels, completely removing any need to balance whatsoever. The goal is to get everything else out of the way first (steering, peddling, breaking, etc) and then once none of that needs to be thought about...the training wheels are removed and balance is worked on.

The same goes for dance, and for this description of blues vs swing. It's conceptual training wheels. It's no more valid then a bicycle with training wheels is a valid bicycle, but it's very useful for ultimately learning the real distinctions.

Quoted from "WiseFolly"

Quoted from "Phlurg"

Quoted from "bryn"
Elements of the Blues Aesthetic, as researched and summarized by Damon Stone: ...

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2. An asymmetry and polyphonic look/feel to the body, characterized by an equality of body parts. No limb or part is given precedence over another, but they all work together both in a simultaneous and serialized fashion. The center of "energy", focus and even weight shifting moves through various parts of the body; polycentric.

I'm curious why this particular definition of a blues aesthetic has become so enshrined. Point 2 in particular sounds rather incoherent to me. Asymmetry characterized by equality of body parts? (Asymmetry would imply an inequality or imbalance of some sort.) Both a simultaneous and serialized fashion? (That leaves nothing out and thus isn't saying anything.) Etc... IMHO. Your friendly curmudgeon.

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I personally had issue with the use of "polyphonic." I've never seen anyone's body resemble a Bach fugue...

Hmmm. That's true; it isn't technically polyphonic. The term I think they might really be going for is polyrhythmic, but I'm not 100 convinced that would be accurate either. Does that make any sense?

No. I have to stand firm on this point. The use of "Polyphonic" is incredibly wrong. It makes 0 sense.

Unless a person's body can take the shape of many little music notes on a staff, resembling a classical late renaissance or baroque MUSICAL composition, I will venture to say that who ever initially wrote this is basically just bluffing. It seems like this person is using big words to sound authoritative. IMHO.

West African music and dance, and derivitives thereof, are definitively polyrhythmic in nature. I think polyphonic was just a slip.

Quoted from "Beckto"

Quoted from "Damon Stone"
2. An asymmetry and polyphonic look/feel to the body, characterized by an equality of body parts. No limb or part is given precedence over another, but they all work together both in a simultaneous and serialized fashion. The center of "energy", focus and even weight shifting moves through various parts of the body; polycentric.

No. I have to stand firm on this point. The use of "Polyphonic" is incredibly wrong. It makes 0 sense. Unless a person's body can take the shape of many little music notes on a staff, resembling a classical late renaissance or baroque MUSICAL composition, I will venture to say that who ever initially wrote this is basically just bluffing. It seems like this person is using big words to sound authoritative. IMHO.

In general I'd agree with you, but odd as this may be I have to defend Damon's use of the word in this context.

M-W - polyphonic: "of, relating to, or marked by polyphony" M-W - polyphony: "a style of musical composition employing two or more simultaneous but relatively independent melodic lines"

From this I read his description to be describing different parts of the body simultaneously embodying independent melodic or rhythmic elements, resulting in a "polyphonic look/feel to the body". Polyrhythmic would be too limited a term, as the body moves to the melody just as much as it does to the rhythm.

Quoted from "Zenin"

Quoted from "Beckto"

Quoted from "Damon Stone"
2. An asymmetry and polyphonic look/feel to the body, characterized by an equality of body parts. No limb or part is given precedence over another, but they all work together both in a simultaneous and serialized fashion. The center of "energy", focus and even weight shifting moves through various parts of the body; polycentric.

No. I have to stand firm on this point. The use of "Polyphonic" is incredibly wrong. It makes 0 sense. Unless a person's body can take the shape of many little music notes on a staff, resembling a classical late renaissance or baroque MUSICAL composition, I will venture to say that who ever initially wrote this is basically just bluffing. It seems like this person is using big words to sound authoritative. IMHO.

In general I'd agree with you, but odd as this may be I have to defend Damon's use of the word in this context. M-W - polyphonic: "of, relating to, or marked by polyphony" M-W - polyphony: "a style of musical composition employing two or more simultaneous but relatively independent melodic lines" From this I read his description to be describing different parts of the body simultaneously embodying independent melodic or rhythmic elements, resulting in a "polyphonic look/feel to the body". Polyrhythmic would be too limited a term, as the body moves to the melody just as much as it does to the rhythm.

I disagree with you, and Beckto and I are musicians. There are not independent melodic lines, and moving to different parts of one melody is not polyphonic movement. Polyrhythm is defined as more than one rhythm or time signature being played at the same time (like polyphony only with rhythm).

That being said, I have often seen polyrhythm referred to a different way in the blues and jazz idioms. (This is not always the case though because sometimes they really are still talking about polyrhythms in cases of 2 against 3 which you hear sometimes or even often, but certainly not all the time, in jazz and blues music.) I am not going to make any further judgment calls on the issue because I am not a jazz historian.

I think you're right there, in the sense that a lot of blues and jazz does not employ multiple simultaneous time signatures. But West African music does, and its derivatives have been heavily influenced by that, and so they often have a very similar feel.

Here's a link to our previous thread on "polyrhythm:"

http://www.yehoodi.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=80619&highlight=polyrhythm

My position is still that the word "polyrhythm" is typically used by musicians to describe a specific overlapping of simultaneous meters (2 against 3, 3 against 4, etc...), and thus of little meaning in the context of lindy/blues.

Beckto is correct. "Polyphonic" can only be interpreted metaphorically in this context. In which case, I would suggest that my left butt cheek is the Cantus Firmus, my right eyebrow the continuo and my pinkies the obbligato.

If we want to describe independent simultaneous moving of body parts in different ways, I recommend something like "body isolations" or even "independent simultaneous moving of body parts in different ways." It's simpler and less likely to cause debates such as this one. ;)

Quoted from "Beckto"
But, Blues isn't polyrhythmic. Nina Simone's jam in the middle of Love Me Or Leave Me is, but besides a handful of moments like that, there is as much poly rhythm in blues as there is in I'm A Little Tea Cup.

So you're saying, I'm A Little Tea Cup is a blues song? Brilliant! I'll play the Me First & The Gimme Gimmes cover the next time I see AmErica at a dance!

Quoted from "WiseFolly"
There are not independent melodic lines

I respectfully disagree. A great deal of jazz and blues incorporates multiple melodic lines, sometimes independent, sometimes less so. The distinction of what is melody, what is counter melody, what is harmony, etc becomes quite intentionally blurred.

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Polyrhythm is defined as more than one rhythm or time signature being played at the same time (like polyphony only with rhythm).

Agreed, but I think everyone already agreed on this.

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That being said, I have often seen polyrhythm referred to a different way in the blues and jazz idioms. (This is not always the case though because sometimes they really are still talking about polyrhythms in cases of 2 against 3 which you hear sometimes or even often, but certainly not all the time, in jazz and blues music.) I am not going to make any further judgment calls on the issue because I am not a jazz historian.

There's very little in these idioms which you hear 100 of the time. That's a large reason why they are so difficult to define in words.

Quoted from "bryn"
I think you're right there, in the sense that a lot of blues and jazz does not employ multiple simultaneous time signatures. But West African music does, and its derivatives have been heavily influenced by that, and so they often have a very similar feel.

A lot of West African music lacks time signatures as the west knows them, as well as a scale. It's the basis for blue notes and the like; Wedging African pitches into western scales. Similar wedging has occurred with fitting African rhythms into western classical time signatures. That clash is a significant part of what formed the basis for Jazz. Jazz borrows from western classical music theory, but it isn't bound to it either in definition or result.

--

Quoted from "Beckto"

Quoted from "bryn"
I think you're right there, in the sense that a lot of blues and jazz does not employ multiple simultaneous time signatures. But West African music does, and its derivatives have been heavily influenced by that, and so they often have a very similar feel.

But, Blues isn't polyrhythmic.

I don't believe it's valid to apply western classical music theory directly to jazz and blues, which I suspect is part of what is occurring here?

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Nina Simone's jam in the middle of Love Me Or Leave Me is, but besides a handful of moments like that, there is as much poly rhythm in blues as there is in I'm A Little Tea Cup. Still doesn't hold water to me.

Nina's version of Love Me Or Leave Me isn't blues. It swings hard until it gets to that middle jam...at which point it even ceases to be jazz...it stops swinging and dives deep into classical. It's a very oddball version all around (and IMNSHO a horrible dance song because of the classical section in the middle...to swing that hard and get your hopes up...just to have them dashed with that crappy middle...ugg...but that's another thread (I hope)).

This one gets a seal of approval - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOQ5kn8YS8k