I don't intend for this request to be inflammatory. When someone I know asks about swing dancing I have about three or four clips which I think perfectly represent what I love about swing - the epitome if you will. The clips are usually famous...
But anyway, the first clip demonstrates frequently something I dislike about a lot of ballrooming blues I see (and find I'm often guilty of myself...): Frequently Lindy basic rhythms are forced into the patterns, making them often look and feel very out of place with the music that does not share those rhythms. Movements often end up very rushed when dancing to slower music as the dancers will double time their Lindy rhythms to "fit", or less often the movements will be painfully too slow as they attempt to fit Lindy rhythms in time (Ti Chi Lindy passed off as Blues...ugg).
The music in this clip in particular is very stressed, tensed...the ballrooming movements in this video march (yes march) right over it most of the time rather then embellishing the moment and the tension.
I think there may be a different aesthetic going on here. The parts that may appear rushed that I'm guessing you're referring to -- in particular the tuck turn, double spin, reverse free spin, of which I counted 5 or 6 -- may be done that way intentionally. When I took Mike Faltasek's ballrooming class at cheap thrills, he said something to the effect (very roughly) that you needn't do the pattern precisely in rhythm to the music, but that you were going for perhaps a broader effect. Ie, not as a sort of micro-musicality. I don't know whether I'm particularly fond of the idea myself, but I'm open to the notion that there's an entirely different sort of expression happening that I'm simply unfamiliar with.
Depends on what you mean by having a say/"follow voice". Probably not productive to get into an online discussion of what exactly is the follow's voice, but perhaps if you post a video clip of what you mean in bal, somebody can provide something analogous for blues?
I would actually think that, in general, blues dancing provides more of an opportunity for each partner to express their own personal voice than bal, because it's pretty common to see social blues dancers doing call-n-response type of solo movements.
I used balboa as an example because it is a dance I do a lot and it has the common misconception that there is no room for the follow to do improv.
In balboa, even in completely closed position, there is room for a lot of footwork variation, even if the body movement is completely directed by the lead. In closed blues position (body contact), which seems to be a 25-50 of the dance from the videos posted, it seems that not only is the body movement directed by the lead, but also the weight transfers. In balboa, the follow can do her own footwork by "faking" her weight because the feet are close together. In blues, the legs are far apart, so that does not seem an option.
I know blues is not only closed position and it does have open and semi-closed positions, but to me the closed parts seem like eternity when I am dancing because I can't do anything AND I'm not going anywhere.
For the open position, I would consider it the same as bal-swing - not pure blues. Most of the open position moves I've seen in these videos are not unique to blues - they either are or can be approximated by other dances like lindy, wcs, or tango.
Quoted from "asane" I used balboa as an example because it is a dance I do a lot and it has the common misconception that there is no room for the follow to do improv.
In balboa, even in completely closed position, there is room for a lot of footwork variation, even if the body movement is completely directed by the lead. In closed blues position (body contact), which seems to be a 25-50 of the dance from the videos posted, it seems that not only is the body movement directed by the lead, but also the weight transfers. In balboa, the follow can do her own footwork by "faking" her weight because the feet are close together. In blues, the legs are far apart, so that does not seem an option.
I know blues is not only closed position and it does have open and semi-closed positions, but to me the closed parts seem like eternity when I am dancing because I can't do anything AND I'm not going anywhere.
For the open position, I would consider it the same as bal-swing - not pure blues. Most of the open position moves I've seen in these videos are not unique to blues - they either are or can be approximated by other dances like lindy, wcs, or tango.
Cool thanks for the clarification.
So in those terms, it might depend on what style of blues you're doing. Drag blues has a lot of opportunity for the follow to improvise footwork, especially if she is comfortable asking the lead to take a little more of her weight. In ballrooming style, footwork improvisation might mirror whatever you can find in tango, particularly when your movement slows or takes a pause.
If it's more of a jookin (or whatever the appropriate term is) kind of blues, then you're right I think the opportunities for the kind of improvisation which isn't done at the expense of following (like footwork variation in bal) is a bit trickier because you always have to be ready for that next weight shift. This is also the style of blues where you'll see a lot more call n response done - open or closed - but it's totally up to the lead to initiate that.
Off topic, the majority of moves done in anything aren't unique to one dance. Everything has some variation of the basic turns and hand changes -- it's just styled differently. At least that's my take on things.
Quoted from "asane" In balboa, even in completely closed position, there is room for a lot of footwork variation, even if the body movement is completely directed by the lead. In closed blues position (body contact), which seems to be a 25-50 of the dance from the videos posted, it seems that not only is the body movement directed by the lead, but also the weight transfers. In balboa, the follow can do her own footwork by "faking" her weight because the feet are close together. In blues, the legs are far apart, so that does not seem an option.
The follow in blues can affect/suggest body movement as well. When the two are really listening to each other you may not be able to visually see it from the 3rd person as he'll be leading her through movements which she suggested.
And down this road likes the kettle of worms asane and redbean were talking about last page. ;-)
Quoted from "asane" I used balboa as an example because it is a dance I do a lot and it has the common misconception that there is no room for the follow to do improv.
In balboa, even in completely closed position, there is room for a lot of footwork variation, even if the body movement is completely directed by the lead. In closed blues position (body contact), which seems to be a 25-50 of the dance from the videos posted, it seems that not only is the body movement directed by the lead, but also the weight transfers. In balboa, the follow can do her own footwork by "faking" her weight because the feet are close together. In blues, the legs are far apart, so that does not seem an option.
I know blues is not only closed position and it does have open and semi-closed positions, but to me the closed parts seem like eternity when I am dancing because I can't do anything AND I'm not going anywhere.
For the open position, I would consider it the same as bal-swing - not pure blues. Most of the open position moves I've seen in these videos are not unique to blues - they either are or can be approximated by other dances like lindy, wcs, or tango.
Cool thanks for the clarification.
So in those terms, it might depend on what style of blues you're doing. Drag blues has a lot of opportunity for the follow to improvise footwork, especially if she is comfortable asking the lead to take a little more of her weight. In ballrooming style, footwork improvisation might mirror whatever you can find in tango, particularly when your movement slows or takes a pause.
If it's more of a jookin (or whatever the appropriate term is) kind of blues, then you're right I think the opportunities for the kind of improvisation which isn't done at the expense of following (like footwork variation in bal) is a bit trickier because you always have to be ready for that next weight shift. This is also the style of blues where you'll see a lot more call n response done - open or closed - but it's totally up to the lead to initiate that.
Off topic, the majority of moves done in anything aren't unique to one dance. Everything has some variation of the basic turns and hand changes -- it's just styled differently. At least that's my take on things.
Ummm... Hai Gaiz. So, like how many types of "blues dancing" are there? Drag? Jookin? Pooking? Licking? WTF?
Not that it's that important, that anyone expects it (or cares)...but it's
fun to think about since you make so much noise...
if the other thread gets to page 20, maybe you'll find out how many
moves there really are. But nobody's licking or pooking, unless you
make those moves up yourself. :lol:
Ummm... Hai Gaiz. So, like how many types of "blues dancing" are there? Drag? Jookin? Pooking? Licking? WTF?
Drag and Jooking are blues dancing, not "blues dancing". Pooking and licking? Not on my floor, please, but what you want to do at a private party is up to you. May want to control the peeps with cameras, though. :)
Ummm... Hai Gaiz. So, like how many types of "blues dancing" are there? Drag? Jookin? Pooking? Licking? WTF?
Drag and Jooking are blues dancing, not "blues dancing". Pooking and licking? Not on my floor, please, but what you want to do at a private party is up to you. May want to control the peeps with cameras, though. :)
Quoted from "Beckto" Ummm... Hai Gaiz. So, like how many types of "blues dancing" are there? Drag? Jookin? Pooking? Licking? WTF?
There are a few hundred documented blues dances. The ones most commonly danced (now) are:
Slow Drag (vintage, modern, and delta styles)
Drag blues
Ballroomin
Mooche
Grind
Fishtail
Shake 'n' Bake
Struttin'
Knee rock
Touch 'n' go
Jookin' is a name that Damon created to specify a subset of blues dances with a similar, gritty feel to them. This includes pretty much everything after Ballroomin' in the list above.
As to the "follower voice" in blues, while it's true that the leader dictates the follower's direction, momentum, and weight shifts, the follower still has PLENTY of room to shape the movement. I can choose how I make any movement and control how each part of my body responds to the lead. For instance, if a leader leads a step to the side I can drag behind the lead, creating a softened, lazy feel, I can push forcefully into it creating a harder, more athletic feel, I can keep my hips in line with my body or let them fall out to a side, etc etc
Quoted from "Beckto" Ummm... Hai Gaiz. So, like how many types of "blues dancing" are there? Drag? Jookin? Pooking? Licking? WTF?
There are a few hundred documented blues dances. The ones most commonly danced (now) are:
Slow Drag (vintage, modern, and delta styles)
Drag blues
Ballroomin
Mooche
Grind
Fishtail
Shake 'n' Bake
Struttin'
Knee rock
Touch 'n' go
Can someone please link to examples of the various styles? Youtube? This is blowing my mind...
The video already posted of Damon and Heidi doing various styles and identifying them covers most of them. The video with Mike and Kelly is Ballroomin'. Any video of Chance and Amy doing blues are Drag Blues. I don't know of much video of the vintage/classic or delta styles of slow drag, but I'm sure someone could convince Damon to do some demos on film.
Quoted from "petalscutiegirl" Jookin' is a name that Damon created to specify a subset of blues dances with a similar, gritty feel to them. This includes pretty much everything after Ballroomin' in the list above.
Every time I've seen a mention of it by Damon he has made it very clear that Jookin' was a name he gave to his family's unique style of dance. This is the first I've seen a mention of it as a catch-all for all non-ballrooming blues. You're married to the man; would you mind asking him if he agrees with your definition of Jookin?
If this new definition you offer is correct, it would appear to invalidate all of Damon's arguments back on GBB against people teaching "Jookin'".
Quoted from "Beckto" Can someone please link to examples of the various styles? Youtube? This is blowing my mind...
Keep in mind that current Blues descriptions tend to use a more vintage definition of "dance" which most people now would call a move, pattern, or styling (think "jazz steps" like boogie backs, shorty george, etc being each called "a dance"). Very few are anything close to a "complete dance" ala Lindy, Balboa. They are bound by an aesthetic, the way a Lindy swing out and a Lindy sugar push are bound by an aesthetic.
So when Liz (petalscutiegirl) says, "There are a few hundred documented blues dances.", what she is really saying is that there are a few hundred documented patterns, stylings, variations. So far as "complete dances", there are probably far more complete Swing dances documented then complete blues dances.
Quoted from "Beckto" Can someone please link to examples of the various styles? Youtube? This is blowing my mind...
Granted, in my opinion the difference between some of these dances is like the difference between, say, Peter Strom-style lindy and Skye Humphries-style lindy. Other differences might be like the difference between a swingout and a swingout with a evil kick. To the hardcore lindy hop enthusiast, the difference may be immediately obvious, but to even a dancer of another style, they may seem like the same dance. Blues seems to make finer distinctions between what qualifies as separate dances than swing does. Not to say that either one is "right" - as these labels are sort of artificial anyways.
I think the most obvious distinctions for the ways people dance to blues music are:
open position blues-swing (ex: west coast)
travelling/upright (ex: ballrooming)
travelling/down-low (ex: drag)
closed, less travelling (ex: grind)
Actually I am curious what the technical distinction between Slow Drag and Drag Blues is. I've often heard them used interchangeably, although slow drag can also refer to a swing jazz step, so I'm wondering if Drag Blues is becoming the more used term for... uh, the kind of blues where you drag your partner (kinda) :P
Absolutely. It's more the music that separates styles anyway - ie, if it's a gritty 150 bpm blues song, I may throw in some stuff from west coast, carolina shag, etc but I probably won't do much ballrooming because it just doesn't fit. Likewise that Duke Ellington song in the Mike & Evita performance screams for ballroom-inspired blues - maybe "the ballroom" or maybe some kind of blues-tango fusion, but not so much west coast or fishtailing.
If it's Portishead, I might just stand there and stroke my follow's neck.
Portishead? Ok...not my idea of a song for blues, but my taste in
music may be different from some others...
Yes, the music DOES (or at least should) dictate, separate the stylings.
The clip I'd posted with Dexter & Michelle used a tune that I felt spoke
in different ways, would inspire various things to the two of them.
-
Lindy:
Swing Talk
- 3/22/08 12:00 am by maryx
- 33771 views
I don't intend for this request to be inflammatory. When someone I know asks about swing dancing I have about three or four clips which I think perfectly represent what I love about swing - the epitome if you will. The clips are usually famous...Page(s): < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... Next > (247 items total)
Phlurg
I think there may be a different aesthetic going on here. The parts that may appear rushed that I'm guessing you're referring to -- in particular the tuck turn, double spin, reverse free spin, of which I counted 5 or 6 -- may be done that way intentionally. When I took Mike Faltasek's ballrooming class at cheap thrills, he said something to the effect (very roughly) that you needn't do the pattern precisely in rhythm to the music, but that you were going for perhaps a broader effect. Ie, not as a sort of micro-musicality. I don't know whether I'm particularly fond of the idea myself, but I'm open to the notion that there's an entirely different sort of expression happening that I'm simply unfamiliar with.
asane
I used balboa as an example because it is a dance I do a lot and it has the common misconception that there is no room for the follow to do improv.
In balboa, even in completely closed position, there is room for a lot of footwork variation, even if the body movement is completely directed by the lead. In closed blues position (body contact), which seems to be a 25-50 of the dance from the videos posted, it seems that not only is the body movement directed by the lead, but also the weight transfers. In balboa, the follow can do her own footwork by "faking" her weight because the feet are close together. In blues, the legs are far apart, so that does not seem an option.
I know blues is not only closed position and it does have open and semi-closed positions, but to me the closed parts seem like eternity when I am dancing because I can't do anything AND I'm not going anywhere.
For the open position, I would consider it the same as bal-swing - not pure blues. Most of the open position moves I've seen in these videos are not unique to blues - they either are or can be approximated by other dances like lindy, wcs, or tango.
redbean
My suggestion would be to stop dancing with leads who stay in closed position throughout most of a song. :-P
Signet
Cool thanks for the clarification.
So in those terms, it might depend on what style of blues you're doing. Drag blues has a lot of opportunity for the follow to improvise footwork, especially if she is comfortable asking the lead to take a little more of her weight. In ballrooming style, footwork improvisation might mirror whatever you can find in tango, particularly when your movement slows or takes a pause.
If it's more of a jookin (or whatever the appropriate term is) kind of blues, then you're right I think the opportunities for the kind of improvisation which isn't done at the expense of following (like footwork variation in bal) is a bit trickier because you always have to be ready for that next weight shift. This is also the style of blues where you'll see a lot more call n response done - open or closed - but it's totally up to the lead to initiate that.
Off topic, the majority of moves done in anything aren't unique to one dance. Everything has some variation of the basic turns and hand changes -- it's just styled differently. At least that's my take on things.
- James
asane
That is exactly what I say before a questionable dance: keep it open and I hate jiggly wiggly ;)
Zenin
The follow in blues can affect/suggest body movement as well. When the two are really listening to each other you may not be able to visually see it from the 3rd person as he'll be leading her through movements which she suggested.
And down this road likes the kettle of worms asane and redbean were talking about last page. ;-)
redbean
Worms, Z. Not warms. Worms. :)
Signet
Blueth is all about keeping your follow warm.
- James
Zenin
Spelling mistakes? Their can't be; My modem is error correcting!
redbean
If anyone ever tries to "keep me warm" by "blues dancing", I will punch them in da froat. :)
Signet
Ooooh, ah luv it when meh followz play wit da lead. Lech, lech...
- James
Beckto
Ummm... Hai Gaiz. So, like how many types of "blues dancing" are there? Drag? Jookin? Pooking? Licking? WTF?
Dr. Feelgood
Not that it's that important, that anyone expects it (or cares)...but it's
fun to think about since you make so much noise...
if the other thread gets to page 20, maybe you'll find out how many
moves there really are. But nobody's licking or pooking, unless you
make those moves up yourself. :lol:
redbean
Drag and Jooking are blues dancing, not "blues dancing". Pooking and licking? Not on my floor, please, but what you want to do at a private party is up to you. May want to control the peeps with cameras, though. :)
Beckto
you don't seem too controlled by da camera here:
redbean
Oh noes. Eatin' a popsicle. Girls Gone Wild!! :P
Ferrix
Some of my favorites are here, but they've already been mentioned in this thread.
Shaheed & Brenda, RAF 2006/07 and Grit Grinder Girlies.
There are more that I think are great, but these are definitely some of my top picks.
petalscutiegirl
Slow Drag (vintage, modern, and delta styles)
Drag blues
Ballroomin
Mooche
Grind
Fishtail
Shake 'n' Bake
Struttin'
Knee rock
Touch 'n' go
Jookin' is a name that Damon created to specify a subset of blues dances with a similar, gritty feel to them. This includes pretty much everything after Ballroomin' in the list above.
As to the "follower voice" in blues, while it's true that the leader dictates the follower's direction, momentum, and weight shifts, the follower still has PLENTY of room to shape the movement. I can choose how I make any movement and control how each part of my body responds to the lead. For instance, if a leader leads a step to the side I can drag behind the lead, creating a softened, lazy feel, I can push forcefully into it creating a harder, more athletic feel, I can keep my hips in line with my body or let them fall out to a side, etc etc
There's always LOTS of options.
Beckto
Can someone please link to examples of the various styles? Youtube? This is blowing my mind...
Dr. Feelgood
What's blowing my mind...is what you just wrote in the other thread! :o
petalscutiegirl
The video already posted of Damon and Heidi doing various styles and identifying them covers most of them. The video with Mike and Kelly is Ballroomin'. Any video of Chance and Amy doing blues are Drag Blues. I don't know of much video of the vintage/classic or delta styles of slow drag, but I'm sure someone could convince Damon to do some demos on film.
Zenin
Every time I've seen a mention of it by Damon he has made it very clear that Jookin' was a name he gave to his family's unique style of dance. This is the first I've seen a mention of it as a catch-all for all non-ballrooming blues. You're married to the man; would you mind asking him if he agrees with your definition of Jookin?
If this new definition you offer is correct, it would appear to invalidate all of Damon's arguments back on GBB against people teaching "Jookin'".
Keep in mind that current Blues descriptions tend to use a more vintage definition of "dance" which most people now would call a move, pattern, or styling (think "jazz steps" like boogie backs, shorty george, etc being each called "a dance"). Very few are anything close to a "complete dance" ala Lindy, Balboa. They are bound by an aesthetic, the way a Lindy swing out and a Lindy sugar push are bound by an aesthetic.
So when Liz (petalscutiegirl) says, "There are a few hundred documented blues dances.", what she is really saying is that there are a few hundred documented patterns, stylings, variations. So far as "complete dances", there are probably far more complete Swing dances documented then complete blues dances.
Signet
Granted, in my opinion the difference between some of these dances is like the difference between, say, Peter Strom-style lindy and Skye Humphries-style lindy. Other differences might be like the difference between a swingout and a swingout with a evil kick. To the hardcore lindy hop enthusiast, the difference may be immediately obvious, but to even a dancer of another style, they may seem like the same dance. Blues seems to make finer distinctions between what qualifies as separate dances than swing does. Not to say that either one is "right" - as these labels are sort of artificial anyways.
I think the most obvious distinctions for the ways people dance to blues music are:
open position blues-swing (ex: west coast)
travelling/upright (ex: ballrooming)
travelling/down-low (ex: drag)
closed, less travelling (ex: grind)
Actually I am curious what the technical distinction between Slow Drag and Drag Blues is. I've often heard them used interchangeably, although slow drag can also refer to a swing jazz step, so I'm wondering if Drag Blues is becoming the more used term for... uh, the kind of blues where you drag your partner (kinda) :P
- James
Dr. Feelgood
I think she meant stylings as well...not the entire dance.
Merely the "dance within the dance".
Signet
Absolutely. It's more the music that separates styles anyway - ie, if it's a gritty 150 bpm blues song, I may throw in some stuff from west coast, carolina shag, etc but I probably won't do much ballrooming because it just doesn't fit. Likewise that Duke Ellington song in the Mike & Evita performance screams for ballroom-inspired blues - maybe "the ballroom" or maybe some kind of blues-tango fusion, but not so much west coast or fishtailing.
If it's Portishead, I might just stand there and stroke my follow's neck.
- James
redbean
:lol:
And since Portishead isn't blues and therefore doesn't call for blues dancing, that would be absolutely appropriate. :-P
Signet
I mean... it's slow, right?
- James
Beckto
Dr. Feelgood
Portishead? Ok...not my idea of a song for blues, but my taste in
music may be different from some others...
Yes, the music DOES (or at least should) dictate, separate the stylings.
The clip I'd posted with Dexter & Michelle used a tune that I felt spoke
in different ways, would inspire various things to the two of them.
Chivalrous
Have you got a nickel?
Martinis do not contain vodka. —Rachel Maddow
Page(s): < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... Next > (247 items total)
Related Content
No related topics found.