Quoted from "dormouse"

Quoted from "Zenin"
There's a rub however: Swing dances share a common style of music, but not a common aesthetic.

I disagree. Are you saying that someone could not describe a general aesthetic that covers, posture, frame/physical connection, rhythmic movement/footwork, and partner dynamic that covers the various swing dances?

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

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You don't see any similarity between WCS, ECS, Lindy Hop, Steppin, Hand Dance, Carolina Shag, etc.?

I do see similarities that span a few at a time, but no unifying characteristic that spans them all at once. None of those you list above cross all and some don't even cross many.

Which only makes sense given that many of the swing dances evolved in very isolated environments. Only the music of the time unifies them.

( :lol: Damon, I could actually hear you say that.)

Damon wrote:

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Ballrooming and Ballroom Blues (and the other names associated with it) are all various takes on the title of that particular section in "The Spirit Moves."

I m glad we agree then that the terms Ballrooming and Ballroom Blues derive from Mura Dehn s mistaken captioning in The Spirit Moves. It would not be the first time that new names have arisen from a misunderstanding!

I also appreciate your implied agreement with the main point of my response to Signet, that there is no evidence that the term ballroomin blues was ever used while the Savoy was open. On the other hand there is textual and oral evidence that denotes the use of the term the ballroom or just ballroom.

If someone wants to give whatever they are now dancing a new name, that s their choice. But I doubt whether anyone can explain the sense in delving back in history in order to alter the terminology originally used, although I think it most likely that Signet did not intentionally mean to do this.

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... for the same reason why the term jazz dance or swing dance is used. Convenient group labeling of dances that use similar elements/aesthetics.

I d go along with a similarity in relation to the terms Swing Dance and Blues Dancing , but without the similar elements/aesthetics proviso. A number of the included dances have hardly anything in common with each other eg elements of Jazz [Broadway Style] Dance and The Grind in the case of Blues Dancing, or Balboa and Ballroom Jive in the case of Swing Dancing . Blues Dancing like Swing Dancing simply denotes a wide variety of dance forms executed to an associated genre/s of music. Thus in the case of Blues Dancing, Slow Dancing is probably a more useful term, and is at least self-explanatory to newcomers.

Exactly what is meant by the term Jazz Dance has remained hotly disputed with little if any agreement, especially since Marshall Stearns went on the attack in relation to this subject in the early 1960s. I think thus it is best left out of this discussion.

Quoted from "Zenin"

Quoted from "dormouse"

Quoted from "Zenin"
There's a rub however: Swing dances share a common style of music, but not a common aesthetic.

I disagree. Are you saying that someone could not describe a general aesthetic that covers, posture, frame/physical connection, rhythmic movement/footwork, and partner dynamic that covers the various swing dances?

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

Quote
You don't see any similarity between WCS, ECS, Lindy Hop, Steppin, Hand Dance, Carolina Shag, etc.?

I do see similarities that span a few at a time, but no unifying characteristic that spans them all at once. None of those you list above cross all and some don't even cross many. Which only makes sense given that many of the swing dances evolved in very isolated environments. Only the music of the time unifies them.

The question on the existence of relationships depend on the criteria you are using. Just like with biology, you can use environment or you you can use inheritance or some mix of the two.

The statement that the dances developed in very isolated environments is an assumption for which i would be interested to see the factors that lead you to that conclusion.

Incidentally, the late Craig "Hutch" Hutchinson, one of the pillars of the Washington DC Metro area dance scence felt strongly that all swing dances (and he included hustle) were related and should remain in convivial terms. He had done extensive research including having copies of the notes the Arthur Murray organization took of Dean Collins lindy and which they used to develop a variety of west coast swing. It doesn't mean he's right, just that there are varying opinions on this topic from people who have studied it for decades.

Quoted from "Zenin"
Not all swing dancing is Lindy, which is the point.

Pardon. I misunderstood your point. Yes, related dances are not lindy. They just share common ancestry.

I'm sorry to hear that lindy didn't even make it to jersey until after the war.

Did you watch this clip? http://lcweb2.loc.gov/diglib/ihas/loc.natlib.ihas.200003829/default.html It's from the Carribean in the 1930s; is it lindy?

Quoted from "CafeSavoy"

Quoted from "Zenin"
Not all swing dancing is Lindy, which is the point.

Pardon. I misunderstood your point. Yes, related dances are not lindy. They just share common ancestry.

The original point was more the lack of unifying aesthetic. Discussion about the ancestry was more to explain a possible cause for the observation. Saying however, that they (implies all) share a common ancestry, while not strictly inaccurate, is an overstatement in my view.

Now, in the other thread, seems like somebody said the clip was mirror-reversed, though, didn't they? Is it still counter-clockwise, then?

You can skip your triples and still be lindy hopping.

Quoted from "terry monaghan"
Zenin wrote:

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Lindy grew out of Harlem, and pretty much didn't leave Harlem until the war.

Totally wrong. The Lindy Hop spread like wild-fire across the USA. The first National Championships were held in NYC in 1930 with reps from most of the major cities.

Dude.... don't tell him that... it just gets ugly.. His fathers experience is more valueable than books you have read and your education on the subject. :)

I have to say, I appreciate it, too. :)

Quoted from "Foehg"
You can skip your triples and still be lindy hopping.

No way, man! I've read it here on Yehoodi!

Quoted from "Zenin"

Quoted from "terry monaghan"
Zenin wrote:

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Lindy grew out of Harlem, and pretty much didn't leave Harlem until the war.

Totally wrong. The Lindy Hop spread like wild-fire across the USA. The first National Championships were held in NYC in 1930 with reps from most of the major cities.

1930 sounds remarkably early for Lindy Hop. Do you have any references to this competition? Google is failing me. :(

Considering Lindbergh flew the Atlantic in 1927, it doesn't seem all that early, actually. The reference had to be a viable one for it to become part of the name of the dance...

or amazon

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AMERICA DANCES! 1897-1948 Collector's Edition Social Dance in Film America Dances Item 4002 49.95 Format: DVD Region Free Availability: Usually ships the next business day. See List of Film Clips Below AMERICA DANCES! 1897-1948 Collector's Edition Social Dance in Film Videotape(on sale) or DVD - 75 minutes This exciting new video/DVD offers an opportunity to see rare historical clips of "dance on film" which have been lost to the public for years until now! Step back in time and enjoy this 'primary source' of over 60 historical dance film clips in America Dances! 1897-1948: A Collector's Edition of Social Dance in Film. This nostalgic history lesson provides an engrossing record of our changing dance styles from the first part of the 20th century. The retrospective spans the panorama from average Americans dancing in newsreels to top quality performers who have left a dance legacy of graceful moves across the ballroom floor. The DVD/VHS records some of the pivotal dance moments of our history. The improvisational base for 20th century social dance begins with wild cakewalk/animal dance fads. The 1920s explodes the limits of social dance in the Blackbottom and Charleston. Dance Marathons and the influential Lindy Hop emerge triumphant in the 1930s. Finally, the 1940s are distinguished by romantic Latin dances and feature film "aerial" athletics. Highlights in the collection are: elegant performances from the silent film era by Irene and Vernon Castle (the role models for modern ballroom dance), Blackbottom clips demonstrating colloquial roots, newsreels showing Charleston contests, excruciating couple dancing in the interminable dance marathons, and a variety of the finest clips available for the show-stopping Lindy Hop, celebrated by the renown Whitey's Lindy Hoppers. There are more than 60 irreplaceable film excerpts that show people from many walks of life and how they danced. This is a collectible treasure, to preserve for future generations. America Dances! represents 20 years of film collectables by Dance Historian, Carol Teten, Artistic Director of the internationally known dance company, DANCE THROUGH TIME and President of DANCETIME PUBLICATIONS. Note: Most of the film clips do not use the original music but use dubbed in piano music instead, perfectly coordinated with the dancing.The producer of this video/DVD decided to do that because of not having the rights to the music LIST OF FILM CLIPS: 1897-1919 From the Cakewalk to the Castle Walk Charity Ball Foxy Grandpa & Polly in A Little Hilarity Cakewalk Comedy Cakewalk Comedy Cakewalk on Beach One Step: Everybody's Doin' It Now Comic Fox Trot with Mr. & Mrs. Sydney Drew Airplane Waltz Two Step Irene and Vernon Castle :The Whirl of Life 1920-1929 From the Blackbottom to the Lindy Hop Let's Do The Blackbottom Charleston Basics Charleston and Blackbottom Charleston in Newsreels Charleston Dance Contests Charleston Contests Ballroom Acrobats Shimmy Raggedy Ann, Tangolio Kinkerjeu, Lindy Whirl, Yankee Prance Old Fashioned Waltz Lindy Hop Introduction Lindy Hop 1930-1939 From Dance Marathons to Lindy Hop / Jitterbug Contests Dance Marathon Newsreels 8 Couples Remain in Grueling 3 Month Dancing Marathon Exhausted Couples Drag Fatigued Feet in Endurance Walk Tired Couples Totter On Feet Over 2,500 Hours Endurance Dancers Still Seek Record After 5 Months Lambeth Walk Waltz: New York City Waltz, Rumba, Mambo: Harvest Moon Ball New Style Rhumba Makes a Hit with Winter Tourists Susie Q Basics Big Apple Basics Big Apple Dance: A Tarheel Stomp Agitates Country From the Minuet to the Big Apple Big Apple: Keep Punching Collegiate Shag 200,000 Jitterbugs go Slap Happy at Swing Jamboree Beach Resort has New Slant on Jitterbug A Dizzy Round of Jitterbug and Jive Hits the Big Town Lindy Hop: Harvest Moon Ball Lindy Hop/Jitterbug Jive: New York City Lindy Hop: Harvest Moon Ball Lindy Hop: Harvest Time in Rhythm Lindy Hop: Newsreel 1939-1948 From Romantic Dance to Acrobatic Classics Waltz: Irene Castle at the World's Fair Adagio: May I Have The Next Trance With You? Adagio: Dreamland of Mine Cuban Pete delete what was written here A Rumba Story Rumba with Spice Mexican Jumping Bean Conga Loca Rhumba Serenade: Mi Rumba Lindy Hop: Keep Punching Lindy Hop: Cottontail (Hot Chocolates) Lindy Hop: Boy! What a Girl! Lindy Hop: Killer Diller

Quoted from "Zenin"
1930 sounds remarkably early for Lindy Hop. Do you have any references to this competition? Google is failing me. :(

This sounds like disputing when the dance was born. :dunno:

Quoted from "petalscutiegirl"

Quoted from "Zenin"
1930 sounds remarkably early for Lindy Hop. Do you have any references to this competition? Google is failing me. :(

This sounds like disputing when the dance was born. :dunno:

1930 was given by Terry as the date of the first national championships. I don't dispute that Lindy as a name was coined in 1928 and born as a dance some years before (mid to late '20s).

What I haven't seen evidence for is the notion that Lindy Hop was a "national" dance by 1930. Most every indication I've read and heard strongly suggests that Lindy with few exceptions didn't get very far away from NY until many, many years later.

Which goes back to the original point: By and large many of the various swing dances developed in relative isolation. While there was some influence here and there, there is no direct lineage. The logistics required for the dances to cross-pollinate quickly simply didn't exist at the time. Music could cross-pollinate as recordings traveled far easier and cheaper then people could. The result was a number of very regional dances, with little if any shared aesthetic, all (at least originally) born to be danced to the popular music of the day.

I should have kept my big mouth shut! However I have learned one thing from this discussion - that short contributions evoke more responses than long ones. My guess is I could have reeled off a list of citations and probably no one would have said a word!

I'm right in the middle of final preparations for pulling together a weekend of rhythm tap dancing here in London, whilst also trying to complete my dissertation, and thus have little time. I just wanted to let you know I have read and appreciated the discussion.

There is citeable evidence for such championships before the Harvest Moon Ball, Peter Loggins came up with one recently on his DanceHistory site. I shall be writing all this up for publication fairly soon. I've been shot down too many times in the past as a result of making rash statements to take a risk on this one.

Not very much is known about these events, but if you just re-read Snowden in "Jazz Dance" he claims to have won 6 Lindy championships without entering the HMB, which caused me to look for earlier ones. I have spoken personally to the female half of the team that won the 1932 comp, and she was adament that there were couples from every state in the union that year.

And yes Zenin, when it comes to this subject, Google invariably fails us all! Apologies if my initial remark sounded harsh, I just wanted to stop you from elaborating on an arguement that couldn't possibly lead anywher. I meant well!