I don't intend for this request to be inflammatory. When someone I know asks about swing dancing I have about three or four clips which I think perfectly represent what I love about swing - the epitome if you will. The clips are usually famous...
Terry, your comments are appreciated, if not by intended recipient, by the onlookers. Some people never let the truth get in the way of a good argument.
Quoted from "terry monaghan" There is citeable evidence for such championships before the Harvest Moon Ball, Peter Loggins came up with one recently on his DanceHistory site.
Thanks for the pointer. I'll take a look.
Quote Not very much is known about these events, but if you just re-read Snowden in "Jazz Dance" he claims to have won 6 Lindy championships without entering the HMB, which caused me to look for earlier ones.
Of course there are championships and then their are "championships". ;-) The word really doesn't mean much more then a contest with a single ultimate winner, a champion. I've no idea about back then, but today the term is used more as an advertising buzz word then anything meaningful. We have "national championships" frequently today that in reality are entirely a local (state) event with a few out of towners sprinkled in.
Quote I have spoken personally to the female half of the team that won the 1932 comp, and she was adament that there were couples from every state in the union that year.
That would be an amazing feat given the state and expense of travel at the time. It's certainly possible, but (and I mean no disrespect by this) it's also a fish story; The winner of a contest (especially of historic significance) has considerable motivation to bolster the image of the defeated competition.
For an historian, what's really needed is the list of entrants and from where they hail. I'm not sure that's available? What is available is the list of winners, which while it doesn't prove anything...does suggest that NY and particularly the Savoy was ground zero for Lindy for a great many years and everything else, if there was much else, an also-ran. Again that's what it suggests, but does not prove.
I do look forward to reading your paper. And I'm not putting myself forward here as any kind of expert on the subject; I'm just putting the dots I have together as best as I can.
Page 129 of Frankie Manning's book shows a photo of Whitey's Lindyhoppers on the set of "Everybody Sing" which was made in 1938 ... in Hollywood. In the summer of 1938, Frankie was with the Big Apple Dancers on tour in New Zealand. Prior to that, some of Whitey's dancers went to Europe to perform. And that was what Frankie remembers of his time back then.
Zenin, you said "Lindy grew out of Harlem, and pretty much didn't leave Harlem until the war" based on what your father told you. While that might be true in his mind, it actually wasn't the case. His reality is not necessarily the absolute truth.
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
There were other films as well before 1938, which I don't dispute.
However, neither films nor touring stage performers are representational of the local social dance scenes. It's something of a problem in swing dance history in general, as there isn't much left behind at this point except films featuring the absolute top dancers of the time doing performances (and the personal recounts of those dancers); What was happening in the clubs, with normal people, is very under documented all around. Balboa history seems to have a much stronger voice from the actual dance floors (in contrast to only performers) then most, and holy cow how do they contradict each other often.
I do take my father's recounts with a grain of salt (he was a kid then, in NY, and is now 84; that's a hell of a long time to keep an accurate account), as I do most everyone's for similar reasons including Franky's (who's perspective is also skewed by the same exceptional experience that made him famous).
And with that I'm bowing out of this diversion. There's no new evidence or perspective coming in.
Considering that Lindy Hop, as we know it, owes much of it's signature "breakaway" look to the Texas Tommy (IIRC), which evolved in the Barbary Coast area of San Francisco, I think that dances were more widespread than you're thinking.
Then again, I guess that could be another coincidence. Like the competitors from the competitions, and the extensive travel schedules, and on and on.
Quoted from "Shanabanana" Terry, your comments are appreciated, if not by intended recipient, by the onlookers. Some people never let the truth get in the way of a good argument.
Word. Terry, don't stop posting your information, please. It's always good to hear from people who have been doing this kind of research for decades, as opposed to relative newbies who don't realize that they're talking to one of the foremost experts on the history of Lindy Hop and don't know when to just shut up and listen.
I'm still waiting for some clips. I've given up about clips answering my questions, but any old "this is the highlight of blues" clips will do at this point.
Quoted from "petalscutiegirl" Considering that Lindy Hop, as we know it, owes much of it's signature "breakaway" look to the Texas Tommy (IIRC), which evolved in the Barbary Coast area of San Francisco, I think that dances were more widespread than you're thinking.
Then again, I guess that could be another coincidence. Like the competitors from the competitions, and the extensive travel schedules, and on and on.
As the Wiki entry notes, "the historical influence of the Texas Tommy and the hop is rarely cited and often disputed."
The oldest footage known (afaict) of the Texas Tommy looks much more like LA Swing to me then anything resembling Lindy Hop.
Quoted from "petalscutiegirl" Considering that Lindy Hop, as we know it, owes much of it's signature "breakaway" look to the Texas Tommy (IIRC), which evolved in the Barbary Coast area of San Francisco, I think that dances were more widespread than you're thinking.
Then again, I guess that could be another coincidence. Like the competitors from the competitions, and the extensive travel schedules, and on and on.
As the Wiki entry notes, "the historical influence of the Texas Tommy and the hop is rarely cited and often disputed."
Quoted from "petalscutiegirl" Considering that Lindy Hop, as we know it, owes much of it's signature "breakaway" look to the Texas Tommy (IIRC), which evolved in the Barbary Coast area of San Francisco, I think that dances were more widespread than you're thinking.
Then again, I guess that could be another coincidence. Like the competitors from the competitions, and the extensive travel schedules, and on and on.
As the Wiki entry notes, "the historical influence of the Texas Tommy and the hop is rarely cited and often disputed."
There is no citation for that one.
There's also no citation for the counter-claim. Really all we have is, "Hey, 3000 miles away and 20 years earlier, someone else was also letting go of their partner...that must be where they got the idea from!".
Still waiting for those blues clips. Meanwhile I guess I will keep reading about the date of origin for lindy hop on the "blues clips" thread. I know blues threads are 1 to get derailed, but.... :dunno:
There's also no citation for the counter-claim. Really all we have is, "Hey, 3000 miles away and 20 years earlier, someone else was also letting go of their partner...that must be where they got the idea from!".
How about....no. Yah, no works well here.
(sorry to keep the tangent going -- better or worse than splitting the thread off to someplace else? but it's interesting stuff.)
texas tommy showing up in 1912 in ny... (scroll to the bottom article on the page) traveling shows were pretty common, and people DID pick things up visually. i remember hearing sugar sullivan talking about going into movies repeatedly to steal the latest dance moves... sure traveling shows got similar treatment. plus, i imagine local dancers and visiting ones would likely hang out, just like they do now. (as for the performer/social dance gap, how do you think the charleston got popularized? it was present in certain communities, then spread like wildfire after a version made it onto stage.)
nytimes articles after 1914 aren't available for free, but the search for "texas tommy" had hits going well up into the 30s.
might or might not be able to connect the dots, but they're certainly not as far apart as you're alleging.
There's also no citation for the counter-claim. Really all we have is, "Hey, 3000 miles away and 20 years earlier, someone else was also letting go of their partner...that must be where they got the idea from!".
How about....no. Yah, no works well here.
(sorry to keep the tangent going -- better or worse than splitting the thread off to someplace else? but it's interesting stuff.) texas tommy showing up in 1912 in ny... (scroll to the bottom article on the page) traveling shows were pretty common, and people DID pick things up visually. i remember hearing sugar sullivan talking about going into movies repeatedly to steal the latest dance moves... sure traveling shows got similar treatment. plus, i imagine local dancers and visiting ones would likely hang out, just like they do now. (as for the performer/social dance gap, how do you think the charleston got popularized? it was present in certain communities, then spread like wildfire after a version made it onto stage.)
nytimes articles after 1914 aren't available for free, but the search for "texas tommy" had hits going well up into the 30s.
might or might not be able to connect the dots, but they're certainly not as far apart as you're alleging.
Thanks for the references. Much more substantial information.
According to Frankie's book, pg 91 about the 1935 Harvest Moon Ball:
Quote Still, I think the first Harvest moon Ball was a great showcase for Lindy hopping. It was the first time we had been exposed to so many people at once, and the contest was filmed for newsreels that were shown in the theaters. (OF course, we didn't know this at the time.) This was the beginning of the spread of Lindy hopping -- some people had never seen it, only heard of it - and the audience was very enthusiastic about the way we danced, especially those of us from the Savoy.
This should probably be taken to a new thread- who will know to look in the blues clip thread in the future for this stuff?
Quoted from "asane" According to Frankie's book, pg 91 about the 1935 Harvest Moon Ball:
Quote Still, I think the first Harvest moon Ball was a great showcase for Lindy hopping. It was the first time we had been exposed to so many people at once, and the contest was filmed for newsreels that were shown in the theaters. (OF course, we didn't know this at the time.) This was the beginning of the spread of Lindy hopping -- some people had never seen it, only heard of it - and the audience was very enthusiastic about the way we danced, especially those of us from the Savoy.
Quoted from "Atalanta" no? so this is "modest, humble zenin"?
awesome.
He's just pretending to play nice for now because he's gotten suspended from Yehoodi AND Gargle Blaster Blues. Don't worry, it's just a show, he's still the same old Zenin we know and love.
dunno if the dancehistory server will let me link this, but lemme try... taken from this thread:
(1933, shenendoah, pennsylvania)
(i haven't flipped around the board enough to know much, but peter and terry and other folks who hang out on that board have looked at a LOT of original source material, so if they're talking about lindy spreading out earlier than stearns or frankie realized it did, they probably DO have their evidence!)
Quoted from "asane" According to Frankie's book, pg 91 about the 1935 Harvest Moon Ball:
Quote Still, I think the first Harvest moon Ball was a great showcase for Lindy hopping. It was the first time we had been exposed to so many people at once, and the contest was filmed for newsreels that were shown in the theaters. (OF course, we didn't know this at the time.) This was the beginning of the spread of Lindy hopping -- some people had never seen it, only heard of it - and the audience was very enthusiastic about the way we danced, especially those of us from the Savoy.
Which places the start of the spread out of NY solidly in the late 30s, rather then the late 20s as Terry suggested.
I don't know you - I do know Terry. If I were you, I wouldn't question his knowledge about Lindy at least until you've learned a little more about him, and what he does (and has done) with his spare time for decades.
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Quoted from "OpeningMinds" I don't know you - I do know Terry. If I were you, I wouldn't question his knowledge about Lindy at least until you've learned a little more about him, and what he does (and has done) with his spare time for decades.
If someone can't explain themselves, I really don't care who they or anyone else thinks they are. And I question everything, always, reguardless of the source. To do otherwise, as you're suggesting, is simply foolish.
Terry is time starved at the moment and I'm ok with that, but it only explains the situation it doesn't resolve it. Which is fine; there's quite an enlightening discussion taking place nonetheless.
Quoted from "Atalanta" no? so this is "modest, humble zenin"?
awesome.
He's just pretending to play nice for now because he's gotten suspended from Yehoodi AND Gargle Blaster Blues. Don't worry, it's just a show, he's still the same old Zenin we know and love.
So I see:
Quoted from "Zenin" If someone can't explain themselves, I really don't care who they or anyone else thinks they are.
That's just profound hubris. Really a remarkable specimen. Well done!
Quoted from "Atalanta" no? so this is "modest, humble zenin"?
awesome.
He's just pretending to play nice for now because he's gotten suspended from Yehoodi AND Gargle Blaster Blues. Don't worry, it's just a show, he's still the same old Zenin we know and love.
Hmm, maybe. I am a latecomer to the "fight about Zenin" game, but I've read some of the flames on GBB, and it really seems like he's toeing the line here. While it may indeed all be an act, it's actually a pretty good one. He's cited sources for his statements, and even downplayed personal attacks.
This seems more than anything like a good chance to provide positive reinforcement to his improvement-- whether real or feigned. Even if he's only pretending to be nice, the way to get him to really be nice is to promote his nice behavior and let that flow back and fix his motives. You, as a respected opinion-leader of this online community, have an opportunity to help Zenin shed his obnoxious chrysalis of personal attacks and unsourced statements, and emerge as a reasonable and courteous Internet butterfly.
Quoted from "Atalanta" So I see:
Quoted from "Zenin" If someone can't explain themselves, I really don't care who they or anyone else thinks they are.
Hang on now. Put the snarky brush-off back into context, and you'll see that he's not trying to diss on Terry M., just trying to keep him on his toes-- and Kait, by the way, has seriously stepped up to the plate and delivered the goods (to mix a metaphor).
I admit that his delivery isn't strong on courtesy. At least one of his earlier remarks would even qualify for classification as "puerile". I'm a fan of respect myself, and I find that when someone has a point (Zenin seems to have one) that they're expressing rudely, the optimal course of action is often to help them find a more suitable way to make their point, instead of trying to discourage them from making it in an unacceptable way.
Now, for future reference, are you one of the old-timers with your own reputation for snarky hostility? I know there are supposed to be a few of them around here, but I can't remember whether it's you, or whether I'm mixing you up with Beckto, and maybe RubyMae.
Incidentally, I remember a situation similar to this one on my own scene's board when I made a disgruntled rumbling about what I felt were someone else's inadequate explanations of dance-related concepts, and received a gentle smackdown because the explainer in question was Sommer Gentry. I shut up pretty quick, but to this day harbor misgivings about the aptness of the explanations.
Quoted from "Atalanta" That's just profound hubris. Really a remarkable specimen. Well done!
If I may offer a word of constructive criticism here, I think you could be more effectively caustic if you stay on the same sarcasm-level for the whole train of thought. The "Well done!" at the end calls for an ironic sneer, but your first sentence needs to be read in a sincere, amazed, and/or exasperated tone for best effect-- if you read it sarcastically, it sounds rather like this might be a crummy example of profound hubris, which doesn't seem to be the effect you were trying to convey.
Now, that distant squeaking is the sound of good blues clips not getting posted to the thread. If I say anything more specifically about Zenin here, I intend to do it in a new thread.
-
Lindy:
Swing Talk
- 3/22/08 12:00 am by maryx
- 33503 views
I don't intend for this request to be inflammatory. When someone I know asks about swing dancing I have about three or four clips which I think perfectly represent what I love about swing - the epitome if you will. The clips are usually famous...Page(s): < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... Next > (247 items total)
Shanabanana
Terry, your comments are appreciated, if not by intended recipient, by the onlookers. Some people never let the truth get in the way of a good argument.
Wexie
Terry, it's always a pleasure to have you around.
Zenin
Thanks for the pointer. I'll take a look.
Of course there are championships and then their are "championships". ;-) The word really doesn't mean much more then a contest with a single ultimate winner, a champion. I've no idea about back then, but today the term is used more as an advertising buzz word then anything meaningful. We have "national championships" frequently today that in reality are entirely a local (state) event with a few out of towners sprinkled in.
That would be an amazing feat given the state and expense of travel at the time. It's certainly possible, but (and I mean no disrespect by this) it's also a fish story; The winner of a contest (especially of historic significance) has considerable motivation to bolster the image of the defeated competition.
For an historian, what's really needed is the list of entrants and from where they hail. I'm not sure that's available? What is available is the list of winners, which while it doesn't prove anything...does suggest that NY and particularly the Savoy was ground zero for Lindy for a great many years and everything else, if there was much else, an also-ran. Again that's what it suggests, but does not prove.
I do look forward to reading your paper. And I'm not putting myself forward here as any kind of expert on the subject; I'm just putting the dots I have together as best as I can.
CafeSavoy
OpeningMinds
Page 129 of Frankie Manning's book shows a photo of Whitey's Lindyhoppers on the set of "Everybody Sing" which was made in 1938 ... in Hollywood. In the summer of 1938, Frankie was with the Big Apple Dancers on tour in New Zealand. Prior to that, some of Whitey's dancers went to Europe to perform. And that was what Frankie remembers of his time back then.
Zenin, you said "Lindy grew out of Harlem, and pretty much didn't leave Harlem until the war" based on what your father told you. While that might be true in his mind, it actually wasn't the case. His reality is not necessarily the absolute truth.
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Zenin
There were other films as well before 1938, which I don't dispute.
However, neither films nor touring stage performers are representational of the local social dance scenes. It's something of a problem in swing dance history in general, as there isn't much left behind at this point except films featuring the absolute top dancers of the time doing performances (and the personal recounts of those dancers); What was happening in the clubs, with normal people, is very under documented all around. Balboa history seems to have a much stronger voice from the actual dance floors (in contrast to only performers) then most, and holy cow how do they contradict each other often.
I do take my father's recounts with a grain of salt (he was a kid then, in NY, and is now 84; that's a hell of a long time to keep an accurate account), as I do most everyone's for similar reasons including Franky's (who's perspective is also skewed by the same exceptional experience that made him famous).
And with that I'm bowing out of this diversion. There's no new evidence or perspective coming in.
tommyd76
Probably best to not pick this fight
petalscutiegirl
Considering that Lindy Hop, as we know it, owes much of it's signature "breakaway" look to the Texas Tommy (IIRC), which evolved in the Barbary Coast area of San Francisco, I think that dances were more widespread than you're thinking.
Then again, I guess that could be another coincidence. Like the competitors from the competitions, and the extensive travel schedules, and on and on.
Chivalrous
Wasn't that invented by Johnny Brooklyn from Illinois, a.k.a. The Cincinnati Kid?
Martinis do not contain vodka. —Rachel Maddow
Marcelo
Word. Terry, don't stop posting your information, please. It's always good to hear from people who have been doing this kind of research for decades, as opposed to relative newbies who don't realize that they're talking to one of the foremost experts on the history of Lindy Hop and don't know when to just shut up and listen.
asane
I'm still waiting for some clips. I've given up about clips answering my questions, but any old "this is the highlight of blues" clips will do at this point.
Zenin
As the Wiki entry notes, "the historical influence of the Texas Tommy and the hop is rarely cited and often disputed."
The oldest footage known (afaict) of the Texas Tommy looks much more like LA Swing to me then anything resembling Lindy Hop.
WiseFolly
There is no citation for that one.
Zenin
There's also no citation for the counter-claim. Really all we have is, "Hey, 3000 miles away and 20 years earlier, someone else was also letting go of their partner...that must be where they got the idea from!".
How about....no. Yah, no works well here.
asane
Still waiting for those blues clips. Meanwhile I guess I will keep reading about the date of origin for lindy hop on the "blues clips" thread. I know blues threads are 1 to get derailed, but.... :dunno:
kait
(sorry to keep the tangent going -- better or worse than splitting the thread off to someplace else? but it's interesting stuff.)
texas tommy showing up in 1912 in ny... (scroll to the bottom article on the page) traveling shows were pretty common, and people DID pick things up visually. i remember hearing sugar sullivan talking about going into movies repeatedly to steal the latest dance moves... sure traveling shows got similar treatment. plus, i imagine local dancers and visiting ones would likely hang out, just like they do now. (as for the performer/social dance gap, how do you think the charleston got popularized? it was present in certain communities, then spread like wildfire after a version made it onto stage.)
nytimes articles after 1914 aren't available for free, but the search for "texas tommy" had hits going well up into the 30s.
might or might not be able to connect the dots, but they're certainly not as far apart as you're alleging.
Atalanta
no? so this is "modest, humble zenin"?
awesome.
Zenin
Thanks for the references. Much more substantial information.
asane
According to Frankie's book, pg 91 about the 1935 Harvest Moon Ball:
This should probably be taken to a new thread- who will know to look in the blues clip thread in the future for this stuff?
Zenin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtSbD0469us
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsdQC8f34nY&NR=1
Which places the start of the spread out of NY solidly in the late 30s, rather then the late 20s as Terry suggested.
petalscutiegirl
kait
dunno if the dancehistory server will let me link this, but lemme try... taken from this thread:
(1933, shenendoah, pennsylvania)
(i haven't flipped around the board enough to know much, but peter and terry and other folks who hang out on that board have looked at a LOT of original source material, so if they're talking about lindy spreading out earlier than stearns or frankie realized it did, they probably DO have their evidence!)
kait
oh, and here's another -- 1931, kansas city:
discussed here
aklamo
Brava!
OpeningMinds
I don't know you - I do know Terry. If I were you, I wouldn't question his knowledge about Lindy at least until you've learned a little more about him, and what he does (and has done) with his spare time for decades.
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Zenin
If someone can't explain themselves, I really don't care who they or anyone else thinks they are. And I question everything, always, reguardless of the source. To do otherwise, as you're suggesting, is simply foolish.
Terry is time starved at the moment and I'm ok with that, but it only explains the situation it doesn't resolve it. Which is fine; there's quite an enlightening discussion taking place nonetheless.
Atalanta
So I see:
That's just profound hubris. Really a remarkable specimen. Well done!
petalscutiegirl
He really is a special creature, isn't he?
Foehg
Hmm, maybe. I am a latecomer to the "fight about Zenin" game, but I've read some of the flames on GBB, and it really seems like he's toeing the line here. While it may indeed all be an act, it's actually a pretty good one. He's cited sources for his statements, and even downplayed personal attacks.
This seems more than anything like a good chance to provide positive reinforcement to his improvement-- whether real or feigned. Even if he's only pretending to be nice, the way to get him to really be nice is to promote his nice behavior and let that flow back and fix his motives. You, as a respected opinion-leader of this online community, have an opportunity to help Zenin shed his obnoxious chrysalis of personal attacks and unsourced statements, and emerge as a reasonable and courteous Internet butterfly.
Hang on now. Put the snarky brush-off back into context, and you'll see that he's not trying to diss on Terry M., just trying to keep him on his toes-- and Kait, by the way, has seriously stepped up to the plate and delivered the goods (to mix a metaphor).
I admit that his delivery isn't strong on courtesy. At least one of his earlier remarks would even qualify for classification as "puerile". I'm a fan of respect myself, and I find that when someone has a point (Zenin seems to have one) that they're expressing rudely, the optimal course of action is often to help them find a more suitable way to make their point, instead of trying to discourage them from making it in an unacceptable way.
Now, for future reference, are you one of the old-timers with your own reputation for snarky hostility? I know there are supposed to be a few of them around here, but I can't remember whether it's you, or whether I'm mixing you up with Beckto, and maybe RubyMae.
Incidentally, I remember a situation similar to this one on my own scene's board when I made a disgruntled rumbling about what I felt were someone else's inadequate explanations of dance-related concepts, and received a gentle smackdown because the explainer in question was Sommer Gentry. I shut up pretty quick, but to this day harbor misgivings about the aptness of the explanations.
If I may offer a word of constructive criticism here, I think you could be more effectively caustic if you stay on the same sarcasm-level for the whole train of thought. The "Well done!" at the end calls for an ironic sneer, but your first sentence needs to be read in a sincere, amazed, and/or exasperated tone for best effect-- if you read it sarcastically, it sounds rather like this might be a crummy example of profound hubris, which doesn't seem to be the effect you were trying to convey.
Now, that distant squeaking is the sound of good blues clips not getting posted to the thread. If I say anything more specifically about Zenin here, I intend to do it in a new thread.
redbean
You, my friend, are one of the best things to happen to Yehoodi in a very long time. :)
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