Hey all! This is my first post on Yehoodi :) I've been swing dancing for three years and I absolutely love it. I consider myself to be a pretty decent dancer but my ultimate goal is to become professional (i.e. win at Beantown/similar comp and be...
The people, with their money, have spoken and if this weekend was any indication, I think the ULHS/ILHC/ALHC debate on this thread has finally been settled in a decisive way.
Quoted from "asane" The people, with their money, have spoken and if this weekend was any indication, I think the ULHS/ILHC/ALHC debate on this thread has finally been settled in a decisive way.
Was attendance that low at ALHC?
"If music be the food of love, play on!" - Shakespeare
Even if it was, may not be a fair comparison pre and post stock market collapse.
Everyone I have talked to has seen a significant drop off in attendance at events. People are scared and it is affecting their travel and spending behaviors.
I don't know the numbers, but on Saturday night, with an extra influx of 1 night attendees from NYC, it didn't seem like much more than Fram. It was the least attended ALHC I've been to in at least 4 years. If you look at the ALHC thread, MANY of the competitions were canceled and others had low participation. The showcase and classic were combined to be a total of 5 couples. Saturday night, many of the routines were recycled from ILHC or ULHS, so it'd be hard to argue that it was the seat of new, trend-setting stuff.
I was only at ALHC for Sat night, so I can't say much about the weekend overall. I heard it was pretty dead on Fri. Several people that I personally know that go most years for the whole weekend, like myself, either went for one night or not at all. It could be the economy, the large number of competing lindy competition weekends, a lack of interest in ALHC, or a combination of all three.
I don't know the numbers, but on Saturday night, with an extra influx of 1 night attendees from NYC, it didn't seem like much more than Fram. It was the least attended ALHC I've been to in at least 4 years. If you look at the ALHC thread, MANY of the competitions were canceled and others had low participation. The showcase and classic were combined to be a total of 5 couples. Saturday night, many of the routines were recycled from ILHC or ULHS, so it'd be hard to argue that it was the seat of new, trend-setting stuff.
I was only at ALHC for Sat night, so I can't say much about the weekend overall. I heard it was pretty dead on Fri. Several people that I personally know that go most years for the whole weekend, like myself, either went for one night or not at all. It could be the economy, the large number of competing lindy competition weekends, a lack of interest in ALHC, or a combination of all three.
Interesting. I didn't go this year. And I've been every year since I started dancing (mostly because my mom lives in Stamford).
The economy was definitely an issue for me. If I'm going to spend my money to dance, it's gonna be on events that have everything I want (wcs, lindy, bal, etc.). So I've been really picky about traveling this year.
Also, I had a feeling that ALHC wouldn't be well attended.
Looking into going to ULHS (yay New Orleans!) and/or ILHC next year.
"If music be the food of love, play on!" - Shakespeare
Quoted from "tol" Even if it was, may not be a fair comparison pre and post stock market collapse.
Everyone I have talked to has seen a significant drop off in attendance at events. People are scared and it is affecting their travel and spending behaviors.
I was typing my reply when you posted. True, I think economy had some effect. We'll have to wait and see how the winter events go attendance wise. But many of the people who decided they were not going this year decided before the crash.
Economy or not, I think it's going to be a hard sell to get people to go back next year based on this year's experience.
At this point, ALHC is basically a moderately attended regional event. I had a good time, and so did some of the people I knew, but it was clearly in spite of the state of the event and not because of it.
Moreover, I think the only people that really enjoyed the event were those who had been before and who had previous friends to see. In the middle of the afternoon, and even at times during the evening dances I saw only a handful of advanced dancers on the floor trying to get dances in with old friends. Most of the intermediate dancers didn't even bother to show up on Sunday afternoon. Frankly, if I were a beginner dancer or a dancer new to traveling, I would have been seriously disappointed with this event. Even if I manage to attend next year I can't foresee myself encouraging anyone else to go at this point, and it's hard to fathom the calculus by which anyone would look at this year's experience and decide to go more than a day's drive to attend next year.
A lot of the dancers I talked to last weekend have, for lack of a better way to put it, a strong loyalty to ALHC that has persisted in spite of its (continual and generally unresolved) shortcomings. High-profile national competitive events are important to the health and promotion of swing dancing, and no one wants to lose one. ALHC, frankly, appears to be a lost cause at this point. If I were Paulette, I would be thinking long and hard about the kinds of changes I could make that might salvage my event, and I wouldn't be thinking small. Otherwise, I would either cancel or change the name and focus to something more becoming a regional event.
I can certainly think of a long list of suggestions, as, I suspect, can a lot of people (and in spite of the perpetual arguments, the elimination of relative placement judging isn't one of them). Hopefully Paulette will realize this year that if she wants ALHC to continue, she'd better start taking others' ideas seriously.
Quoted from "leetucker" I can certainly think of a long list of suggestions, as, I suspect, can a lot of people (and in spite of the perpetual arguments, the elimination of relative placement judging isn't one of them). Hopefully Paulette will realize this year that if she wants ALHC to continue, she'd better start taking others' ideas seriously.
Might I suggest you post these in a thread more appropriate? Like one actually about ALHC? I'd be interested to hear any suggestions.
--R
Quoted from "asane" The people, with their money, have spoken and if this weekend was any indication, I think the ULHS/ILHC/ALHC debate on this thread has finally been settled in a decisive way.
I don't think there has ever been a debate as to who would win the popularity contest. Besides, according to the numbers, the ALHC pulled in over 400 people on Saturday night and it still 'looked' sparse. I agree, big changes must be made to the ALHC if it is to continue into the next few years.
Dave, what you are calling a "popularity contest" is actually the free market at work. When an event that adults have to pay to go to presents more of what that community of adults is looking for, they go. When an event doesn't present what a community of adults want, they save their money and don't go (or go someplace else).
That's not a high school prom queen vote, that's economics.
I see this kind of thing with local events all the time. The bottom line is that if people aren't coming to your event it's because you're doing something wrong. Don't blame the audience. That will NEVER get you more bodies in the room. Place the blame squarely on yourself and go to work figuring out what mistakes you made. If you do figure it out and fix it, you'll have a successful event. If you don't, you won't.
It's not rocket science.
YOU may like what you're presenting, fine. But if nobody else does, you'll be a party of one. And it doesn't matter if you think your stuff is teh awesome. If you're trying to get other people there, it matters what they think.
Stop assuming everyone else is a bunch of idiots and you know better.
Or don't. And have a very small party.
(Edited to add that I was using the general "you", not a specific "you" directed at any one person, as I was making a larger point about events in general.)
Quoted from "mouth" YOU may like what you're presenting, fine. But if nobody else does, you'll be a party of one. And it doesn't matter if you think your stuff is teh awesome. If you're trying to get other people there, it matters what they think.
Quoted from "mouth" YOU may like what you're presenting, fine. But if nobody else does, you'll be a party of one. And it doesn't matter if you think your stuff is teh awesome. If you're trying to get other people there, it matters what they think.
So... a popularity contest?
DDD
Dave, calling something a popularity contest means that there is some social reason for being at an event -- to be seen, to become more popular.
People have chosen to go to other events, and not ALHC, because the events are superior -- the substance of the event. Not because there is some kind of social popularity contest going on.
Certainly, IHLC and ULHS have become more popular, but that's much different than a popularity contest.
I'm not sure why you're so die-hard about ALHC. Maybe there's a personal reason, or nostalgia for the good times you've had there in the past. I'm upset, too, that ALHC isn't doing well -- it was really awesome to have such a well-attended national event in my backyard. But, things change as there is need, which is what I think we're starting to see.
"If music be the food of love, play on!" - Shakespeare
Quoted from "mouth" YOU may like what you're presenting, fine. But if nobody else does, you'll be a party of one. And it doesn't matter if you think your stuff is teh awesome. If you're trying to get other people there, it matters what they think.
So... a popularity contest?
DDD
Yes, because people thinking and making educated decisions as to where to spend their time and money is the same thing as a popularity contest. Exactly. I'm so glad we understand each other. :roll:
No, but if those perceived as the "rock stars" or the "cool kids" or the "best dancers" all favor an event or disfavor another, many will follow suit merely because of their endorsement (or lack thereof).
Quoted from "RubyMae" No, but if those perceived as the "rock stars" or the "cool kids" or the "best dancers" all favor an event or disfavor another, many will follow suit merely because of their endorsement (or lack thereof).
Wow, you really think badly of the swing dancing community at large, don't you.
You all really think that an event could present pure crap, but if enough "rock stars" support it, it will far exceed the success of events that present good material???
Honestly???
I might agree that in a situation with equal events where one has more star support that that could be a tipping point. But that assumes quality in both cases.
I can't imagine the swing community at large will just eat a steaming pile of crap because the, for example, Silver Shadows tell them to.
And probably more importantly, I don't think the Silver Shadows would tell people to in the first place.
I mean, why do you think these supposed "rock stars" prefer one event over another in the first place? Even if I had a friend running something, if there were major problems with the event I wouldn't go around telling everyone how great it was. I might not go out of my way to knock it down, but I wouldn't champion it.
Quoted from "mouth" You all really think that an event could present pure crap, but if enough "rock stars" support it, it will far exceed the success of events that present good material???
Honestly???
I might agree that in a situation with equal events where one has more star support that that could be a tipping point. But that assumes quality in both cases.
I can't imagine the swing community at large will just eat a steaming pile of crap because the, for example, Silver Shadows tell them to.
And probably more importantly, I don't think the Silver Shadows would tell people to in the first place.
I mean, why do you think these supposed "rock stars" prefer one event over another in the first place? Even if I had a friend running something, if there were major problems with the event I wouldn't go around telling everyone how great it was. I might not go out of my way to knock it down, but I wouldn't champion it.
I like to believe we're a bit better than that.
But maybe I'm just a hopeless optimist.
By this logic...
1. We, the swing community at large, shouldn't follow the, for example, Silver Shadows to an event because they "attend" it (making it a popularity contest.)
2. We, the swing community at large, should follow the, for example, Silver Shadows to an event because they "endorse" it (as they would not lead us wrong.)
Quoted from "RubyMae" No, but if those perceived as the "rock stars" or the "cool kids" or the "best dancers" all favor an event or disfavor another, many will follow suit merely because of their endorsement (or lack thereof).
Ever gone to a movie because a reviewer you usually agree with likes it?
Quoted from "mouth" I can't imagine the swing community at large will just eat a steaming pile of crap because the, for example, Silver Shadows tell them to.
Sure we would. How else are we supposed to know whether an event is likely to be good than by following the example of the best dancers?
But the second point is the one that matters. We do that because we trust the best dancers to know which events are worth going to. They aren't going to lead us to a steaming pile of crap. At least, I certainly hope they won't.
I find the best events tend to have little to do with the event itself. I have fun just about anywhere as long as I'm dancing with really awesome dancers.
So, maybe the events are good because the good dancers go. Where ever the Silver Shaddows go will likely be good BECAUSE they are there.
Which is to say, if I know good dancers are going to a certain event, I'm more likely to go because I want to dance with good dancers.
It's not a popularity contest -- it's a skill contest. I want to go where people have skilz.
"If music be the food of love, play on!" - Shakespeare
Quoted from "RubyMae" No, but if those perceived as the "rock stars" or the "cool kids" or the "best dancers" all favor an event or disfavor another, many will follow suit merely because of their endorsement (or lack thereof).
Ever gone to a movie because a reviewer you usually agree with likes it?
I can honestly say, no. (For two reasons, I no longer go to the movies -- I haven't for about 8 years now; and even when I did go to the movies, I didn't read/watch movie reviews before attending a movie.)
Quoted from "mouth" You all really think that an event could present pure crap, but if enough "rock stars" support it, it will far exceed the success of events that present good material???
Well, I don't think that the perceived "rock stars" would support a crap event, but if they did -- yes, I think many would follow.
Quoted from "pocotell" I find the best events tend to have little to do with the event itself. I have fun just about anywhere as long as I'm dancing with really awesome dancers.
So, maybe the events are good because the good dancers go. Where ever the Silver Shaddows go will likely be good BECAUSE they are there.
Which is to say, if I know good dancers are going to a certain event, I'm more likely to go because I want to dance with good dancers.
It's not a popularity contest -- it's a skill contest. I want to go where people have skilz.
Well... to me, the skill of the other dancers is not the biggest factor. In fact, I kind of like it when I don't feel like everyone out there is better than me. It's also about whether the people I really like are going to be there, and how many of them. And even more importantly, it's about how good the music is. But I expect the rock stars know the music pretty well & tend to have good judgement about it. And they also may draw some of the other people I'd like to dance with (skilled or not so skilled), not just because they're there, but also because of a general expectation that if they're there, the event will be well attended. So it all goes together.
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Lindy:
Swing Talk
- 7/14/08 12:00 am by CityGroover
- 40521 views
Hey all! This is my first post on Yehoodi :) I've been swing dancing for three years and I absolutely love it. I consider myself to be a pretty decent dancer but my ultimate goal is to become professional (i.e. win at Beantown/similar comp and be...Page(s): < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Next > (282 items total)
asane
The people, with their money, have spoken and if this weekend was any indication, I think the ULHS/ILHC/ALHC debate on this thread has finally been settled in a decisive way.
pocotell
Was attendance that low at ALHC?
"If music be the food of love, play on!" - Shakespeare
tol
Even if it was, may not be a fair comparison pre and post stock market collapse.
Everyone I have talked to has seen a significant drop off in attendance at events. People are scared and it is affecting their travel and spending behaviors.
asane
I don't know the numbers, but on Saturday night, with an extra influx of 1 night attendees from NYC, it didn't seem like much more than Fram. It was the least attended ALHC I've been to in at least 4 years. If you look at the ALHC thread, MANY of the competitions were canceled and others had low participation. The showcase and classic were combined to be a total of 5 couples. Saturday night, many of the routines were recycled from ILHC or ULHS, so it'd be hard to argue that it was the seat of new, trend-setting stuff.
I was only at ALHC for Sat night, so I can't say much about the weekend overall. I heard it was pretty dead on Fri. Several people that I personally know that go most years for the whole weekend, like myself, either went for one night or not at all. It could be the economy, the large number of competing lindy competition weekends, a lack of interest in ALHC, or a combination of all three.
pocotell
Interesting. I didn't go this year. And I've been every year since I started dancing (mostly because my mom lives in Stamford).
The economy was definitely an issue for me. If I'm going to spend my money to dance, it's gonna be on events that have everything I want (wcs, lindy, bal, etc.). So I've been really picky about traveling this year.
Also, I had a feeling that ALHC wouldn't be well attended.
Looking into going to ULHS (yay New Orleans!) and/or ILHC next year.
"If music be the food of love, play on!" - Shakespeare
asane
I was typing my reply when you posted. True, I think economy had some effect. We'll have to wait and see how the winter events go attendance wise. But many of the people who decided they were not going this year decided before the crash.
leetucker
Economy or not, I think it's going to be a hard sell to get people to go back next year based on this year's experience.
At this point, ALHC is basically a moderately attended regional event. I had a good time, and so did some of the people I knew, but it was clearly in spite of the state of the event and not because of it.
Moreover, I think the only people that really enjoyed the event were those who had been before and who had previous friends to see. In the middle of the afternoon, and even at times during the evening dances I saw only a handful of advanced dancers on the floor trying to get dances in with old friends. Most of the intermediate dancers didn't even bother to show up on Sunday afternoon. Frankly, if I were a beginner dancer or a dancer new to traveling, I would have been seriously disappointed with this event. Even if I manage to attend next year I can't foresee myself encouraging anyone else to go at this point, and it's hard to fathom the calculus by which anyone would look at this year's experience and decide to go more than a day's drive to attend next year.
A lot of the dancers I talked to last weekend have, for lack of a better way to put it, a strong loyalty to ALHC that has persisted in spite of its (continual and generally unresolved) shortcomings. High-profile national competitive events are important to the health and promotion of swing dancing, and no one wants to lose one. ALHC, frankly, appears to be a lost cause at this point. If I were Paulette, I would be thinking long and hard about the kinds of changes I could make that might salvage my event, and I wouldn't be thinking small. Otherwise, I would either cancel or change the name and focus to something more becoming a regional event.
I can certainly think of a long list of suggestions, as, I suspect, can a lot of people (and in spite of the perpetual arguments, the elimination of relative placement judging isn't one of them). Hopefully Paulette will realize this year that if she wants ALHC to continue, she'd better start taking others' ideas seriously.
TheRiz
Might I suggest you post these in a thread more appropriate? Like one actually about ALHC? I'd be interested to hear any suggestions.
--R
Double Down Dave
I don't think there has ever been a debate as to who would win the popularity contest. Besides, according to the numbers, the ALHC pulled in over 400 people on Saturday night and it still 'looked' sparse. I agree, big changes must be made to the ALHC if it is to continue into the next few years.
DDD
mouth
Wow, "popularity contest"???
Dave, what you are calling a "popularity contest" is actually the free market at work. When an event that adults have to pay to go to presents more of what that community of adults is looking for, they go. When an event doesn't present what a community of adults want, they save their money and don't go (or go someplace else).
That's not a high school prom queen vote, that's economics.
I see this kind of thing with local events all the time. The bottom line is that if people aren't coming to your event it's because you're doing something wrong. Don't blame the audience. That will NEVER get you more bodies in the room. Place the blame squarely on yourself and go to work figuring out what mistakes you made. If you do figure it out and fix it, you'll have a successful event. If you don't, you won't.
It's not rocket science.
YOU may like what you're presenting, fine. But if nobody else does, you'll be a party of one. And it doesn't matter if you think your stuff is teh awesome. If you're trying to get other people there, it matters what they think.
Stop assuming everyone else is a bunch of idiots and you know better.
Or don't. And have a very small party.
(Edited to add that I was using the general "you", not a specific "you" directed at any one person, as I was making a larger point about events in general.)
Double Down Dave
So... a popularity contest?
DDD
pocotell
Dave, calling something a popularity contest means that there is some social reason for being at an event -- to be seen, to become more popular.
People have chosen to go to other events, and not ALHC, because the events are superior -- the substance of the event. Not because there is some kind of social popularity contest going on.
Certainly, IHLC and ULHS have become more popular, but that's much different than a popularity contest.
I'm not sure why you're so die-hard about ALHC. Maybe there's a personal reason, or nostalgia for the good times you've had there in the past. I'm upset, too, that ALHC isn't doing well -- it was really awesome to have such a well-attended national event in my backyard. But, things change as there is need, which is what I think we're starting to see.
"If music be the food of love, play on!" - Shakespeare
mouth
Yes, because people thinking and making educated decisions as to where to spend their time and money is the same thing as a popularity contest. Exactly. I'm so glad we understand each other. :roll:
RubyMae
No, but if those perceived as the "rock stars" or the "cool kids" or the "best dancers" all favor an event or disfavor another, many will follow suit merely because of their endorsement (or lack thereof).
mity
(RM and Mouth must have a radar for each others posts. )
mouth
Wow, you really think badly of the swing dancing community at large, don't you.
yes.
i don't think badly of the community at large, but i agree at least in part with dana's comment. sadly.
Emmysue4you
Oooh, if that's what yes thinks, then I agree!!
"...a brilliant combination of foodie, cold war, vintage and biblical. If you replace cold war with band geek." -kimpossible
mouth
You all really think that an event could present pure crap, but if enough "rock stars" support it, it will far exceed the success of events that present good material???
Honestly???
I might agree that in a situation with equal events where one has more star support that that could be a tipping point. But that assumes quality in both cases.
I can't imagine the swing community at large will just eat a steaming pile of crap because the, for example, Silver Shadows tell them to.
And probably more importantly, I don't think the Silver Shadows would tell people to in the first place.
I mean, why do you think these supposed "rock stars" prefer one event over another in the first place? Even if I had a friend running something, if there were major problems with the event I wouldn't go around telling everyone how great it was. I might not go out of my way to knock it down, but I wouldn't champion it.
I like to believe we're a bit better than that.
But maybe I'm just a hopeless optimist.
Double Down Dave
By this logic...
1. We, the swing community at large, shouldn't follow the, for example, Silver Shadows to an event because they "attend" it (making it a popularity contest.)
2. We, the swing community at large, should follow the, for example, Silver Shadows to an event because they "endorse" it (as they would not lead us wrong.)
Is that about right?
DDD
mouth
Yeah Dave, that's exactly what I meant.
:roll:
Addict
Ever gone to a movie because a reviewer you usually agree with likes it?
r_c_s
Sure we would. How else are we supposed to know whether an event is likely to be good than by following the example of the best dancers?
But the second point is the one that matters. We do that because we trust the best dancers to know which events are worth going to. They aren't going to lead us to a steaming pile of crap. At least, I certainly hope they won't.
-- Rachel
pocotell
I find the best events tend to have little to do with the event itself. I have fun just about anywhere as long as I'm dancing with really awesome dancers.
So, maybe the events are good because the good dancers go. Where ever the Silver Shaddows go will likely be good BECAUSE they are there.
Which is to say, if I know good dancers are going to a certain event, I'm more likely to go because I want to dance with good dancers.
It's not a popularity contest -- it's a skill contest. I want to go where people have skilz.
"If music be the food of love, play on!" - Shakespeare
RubyMae
I can honestly say, no. (For two reasons, I no longer go to the movies -- I haven't for about 8 years now; and even when I did go to the movies, I didn't read/watch movie reviews before attending a movie.)
RubyMae
Well, I don't think that the perceived "rock stars" would support a crap event, but if they did -- yes, I think many would follow.
Keither
Only once.
The rockstars go to enough events throughout the year that people still have a choice in where to spend their money.
r_c_s
Well... to me, the skill of the other dancers is not the biggest factor. In fact, I kind of like it when I don't feel like everyone out there is better than me. It's also about whether the people I really like are going to be there, and how many of them. And even more importantly, it's about how good the music is. But I expect the rock stars know the music pretty well & tend to have good judgement about it. And they also may draw some of the other people I'd like to dance with (skilled or not so skilled), not just because they're there, but also because of a general expectation that if they're there, the event will be well attended. So it all goes together.
-- Rachel
LA-Lindy&Balboa
In summary:
How to get professional:
Don't lead people to steaming piles of crap....
Capt Morgan
...so no events in cow fields? hehe
CollegiateShag.com
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