Quoted from "freddie"
Since I've never been dancing in New Orleans, I'd be interested to know what it's like on a regular week. You said somewhere that there are no weekly dances, rather a monthly dance and the various bars with live music. Is that correct? Do people group together to go to certain bars on certain nights? How many people are out dancing on a given night on average? Also, how do people typically learn to dance in N.O. -- meaning, is there a local dance club that gives class series, or private studios? It's nice that you have such strong pride for your city, but you only listed bands, big weekend events, and random rockstars as evidence for your predictions of greatness. What are the everyday dancers/volunteers doing in the scene to make this ring true? Bands come and go into favor, big events can be run from the top-down, and random rockstars can tend to grow shallow roots -- a great scene, in my opinion, comes from the bottom up.

First of all, Thanks Falty! I do have the biggest [bleep!]around (but you've seen it, so you already know that).

I wish this thread hadn't turned into "My Scene is the Best" vs. I think my scene will be the next big scene because... I stand behind my reasoning why I think NOLA is next (just my opinion), but there have only been a few people who have actually put valid reasons down as to why they think another city will accept the lindy torch.

To answer your questions: 1. We do have a small scene, but we go out dancing every night of the week (that's correct). 2. Monday- Loose Marbles at One Eye'd Jacks, then New Orleans Jazz Vipers at The Spotted Cat Tuesday- The New Orleans Moonshiners or Delta Royale at Mimi's in the Marigny Wednesday- Traditional Swing Night at Rock N Bowl (the longest running swing dance venue in the city). This venue helped the resurgence of swing dancing in New Orleans, and has been the weekly venue for almost 10 years. However, this attracts ECS, WCS, Tango, Waltz, Lindy, and a variety of people, which is why I do not consider it a Lindy venue. There's also the Tin Men with Washboard Chaz at DBA Thursday- Sometimes a night off for most dancers, but if folks want to dance, they'll find a place with live music like Fritzel's or Monty Banks at the Spotted Cat Friday- Loose Marbles at Fritzels, Hot Club of New Orleans at DBA, Jazz Vipers at the Spotted Cat Saturday- John Boutte at DBA, and Nathalie's monthly dance at Dance Quarter Sunday- Palmetto Bug Stompers at DBA, Gypsy Jazz Trio at Spotted Cat, and there's usually one more band that follows the stompers at DBA that are sometimes danceable.

Now keep in mind, St. Louis Slim, Joe Krown, and others were not mentioned cause they do not have a weekly gig, but when they play, we dance to them too.

1. We have an average of 10 - 50 dancers out on a given night, but the numbers are slowly increasing.

2. As far as current lessons available: I teach Monday solo plus workshops, then with Nathalie on Tuesday and Wednesday. Nathalie teaches Monday - Thursday to adults, and in the Jefferson Parish Public Schools during the day. Chance teaches Monday - Thursday nights, plus I believe elementary or Junior High kids. Amy teaches once a week Shani Brown teaches once a week, but also subs with Chance.

All of the classes cover Charleston, Balboa, ECS, Jazz Movement, Tap, Lindy Hop, Aerials, and Performance. With all the instructors and classes in town, the scene is really starting to grow, not to mention the influx of great dancers moving here.

And believe it or not, we're extremely hospitable and kind-hearted, and extremely accepting of new-comers. Ask anyone who has ever been dancing here. It would be hard to find someone stating that they had a bad experience with the locals.

We have always had a great scene, but small like Memphis or Atlanta. We've always had a good base roux for this gumbo. Now with all the other ingredients being thrown in... rock stars, classes, big events, live music, plus a national preference moving toward traditional jazz, our gumbo will be the best around soon. Obviously, I do have a lot of pride for my city, but that's not why I think we'll be next on the list. The one thing that's convincing me the most is the international trend toward live trad jazz. It's been big for a few years (of course it's always been big in New Orleans) with events like ULHS, but even us locals never danced to trad jazz until recently. We always danced to New Orleans R&B and Swing music. Now it seems like the country is moving away from DJ'd Swing music (disclaimer: I'm not saying DJ'd music is bad, I'm only noting what I've seen) and toward live jazz combos. Even Big Band and Jazz Standard orchestras, which used to be all the rage up until a couple of years ago, have died down at events.

Freddie, you pose some great questions. As a Seattle dancer, why do you think your scene is considered by many as the best? And as history has shown us, what in your opinion will be the next scene and why?

jlindyhopr-

Thanks for the breakdown of what your local scene is like. It's much more enlightening to make predictions based on the full picture than just cherry picking the stand out elements. N.O. does sound like a lot of fun! I like the club/bar atmosphere for dancing -- it feels more like you're "going out" just like anyone else would, rather than feeling weird about "going out" to a dance studio or some other non-exciting place. So that all sounds cool and I can see why people would dig it.

I can't say why others would consider Seattle to be tops because I don't see Seattle with outside eyes anymore. I moved there about 3.5 years ago for school and got lucky when I realized how much fun I was having. I can say why I think it's a strong scene, but I'm not going to get sucked into making claims of superiority.

Here are my personal opinions on why Seattle is doing just fine: (in no particular order)

Local legacy players: there are people teaching/djing/organizing/dancing in Seattle that have been doing so for 10 years and don't show any sign of stopping. When a scene has to turn itself over after a few years it can take time to rebuild momentum. Seattle has had many people come and go, but there's been a solid core of dancers actively engaged in the scene for a while and that's a huge backbone.

Century Ballroom: this is the focal point venue of the scene and has been for a while. There's swing dancing twice a week -- an all-ages night filled with youngersters, and a 21 night with a more int/adv crowd. There's live music here occasionally, and the instructors have turned it into a hot spot for learning to dance in Seattle. Plus, the space is nice to be in and people go out to see and be seen, and dance their asses off.

DJs: There are lots of solid DJs to hear. In the last year I've organized 3 dj battles, each with 8 djs, representing about 15 different djs -- and those were just the more actively known djs in town. There's a strong relationship between the dancers and the djs -- the djs play music with solid rhythms and the crowd eats up pretty much everything b/c of the trust in taste that exists. The advanced dancers are challenged with kick ass music, which inspires everyone else. Over time there's been a culture of solid swinging music that has much broader boundaries than the other scenes I've lived in. Plus, even with all the current great djs in town, more people keep wanting to become djs, and that means more people are getting enthused about swing music.

Live music is awesome, as we've all noted, but I disagree that DJed music is on a down turn in general. I think more big events are hiring bands (which is great), but I don't think it's necessary at every dance. There's just too many good recordings out there. It would be fun dancing to LM twice a week, but honestly that sound (as fun as it is) can get tired after a while. DJs can play so much more music from different eras and styles to keep dancing fresh over time. Besides, sometimes I just want to dance to Duke Ellington, for example. If you can find me a club with a band like that to dance to live, you let me know and maybe I'll change my tune. :P

geography: the main scene in town is located on Capitol Hill. You can walk to dances, food, and friends' homes and the friendships are strong. There are other venues in other parts of town, and they all have their own community based on those who live in the area. People get together for big events, but they also find their friends at the local venues they enjoy going to.

Strong community: between the local non-profit (savoy swing club), the Century Ballroom, and the various other organizers, there's are lots of things going on locally. DJ battles, local dance contests, live music dances, house parties, workshops, karaoke, and national events are sprinkled throughout the year. Plus our neighbors, Portland and Vancouver, are only 3 hours away so the regional community is connected as well. Legacy locals can network and plan quality events, while up and coming volunteers get the newer dancers pumped up. The "rockstars" (a term i use jokingly) actually get involved in local culture, teaching classes, DJing dances, and are integrated into the scene. This makes for a rich community of newbies all the way up to international dancers. (a "rockstar" dancer that doesn't integrate into the scene isn't automatically a benefit overall)

Past that, I think the people that move here and stay just enjoy the city and the lifestyle. It's fairly laid back, the weather is mostly mild, the city-dweller and nature-lover can both be happy, and there's a fair mix of ages. Occupations and lifestyles are mixed also so it's not too heavy on students, or younger flighty people, or too heavy on older career/family focused people.

I didn't mention all the local jazz festivals that people go to, the huge events (Camp Jitterbug, Seattle Lindy Exchange, Killer Diller Weekend, Century Masters) because I wanted to emphasize the things that I enjoy about Seattle that aren't just about bands and national events. anyway, that's enough i guess. again, thanks for sharing about N.O.

peace

Okay, you win. New Orleans is the next great Lindy Hop city.

Is that what you are looking for?

Boyerific, you're killing me! 6 years ago, we did not go to Mimi's or DBA for trad jazz. We went for John Boutte, St. Louis Slim, the Vipers, but not trad jazz. But those clubs also don't play trad jazz, they play more jazz standards, swing, and new orleans jazz. It wasn't until about 3 years ago that we started going to dance to trad jazz on a WEEKLY basis. We've always danced to them at White Linen Night, French Quarter Fest, Jazz Fest, and other events and festivals. So yes, we've danced to them, but not weekly. Now we make a conscious effort to dance to the Marbles and Moonshiners as much as possible, in addition to our other favorites.

Damn, Antoinette was cool too! :( First Snooks Eaglin, now Antoinette. For those of you who don't know Antoinette, she is the wife to the late Ernie K-Doe, the 1950's singer famous for the song "Mother-in Law." She always drives a Cadillac with a wax figure of her late husband sitting next to her.

There's a brass band playing outside my window. You should walk up here and dance!! They're playing "Going to the Mardi Gras."

Quoted from "jlindyhopr"
I've never danced outside the US, but just curious, which international scenes would you say are pretty amazing? I've heard a lot of about Seoul. Any other amazing scenes?

I would agree on Seoul. Also London. And Stockholm.

Quoted from "jlindyhopr"
We went for John Boutte, St. Louis Slim, the Vipers, but not trad jazz. But those clubs also don't play trad jazz, they play more jazz standards, swing, and new orleans jazz.

this is an ENTIRELY different topic, but i'm confused on what you're calling "trad jazz". That term is much more general than I think you're using it. To me the Jazz Vipers are trad jazz. They play jazz standards (plus some original work). New Orleans jazz is not trad jazz? "Trad jazz" isn't majority jazz standards? I don't get it.

this is a non-sequitor anyway, but my brain just pulled a muscle trying to understand what you're talking about.

I'll PM you

Quoted from "freddie"
To me the Jazz Vipers are trad jazz.

I'd tend to agree with you. Plus they've won numerous awards for best trad jazz album and best trad jazz band.

Quoted from "jlindyhopr"
Well, I disagree. There's a very distinct sound that trad jazz produces, but that's already been discussed here.

ok, but you didn't really address my questions. You implied that trad jazz was NOT "jazz standards, swing, or new orleans jazz."

What are trad jazz bands playing if not mostly jazz standards?

Ok, trad jazz is not "swing" but it can swing.

And trad jazz is not new orleans jazz? You posted to a link where you said this: "Now, as far as trad jazz goes, it's just a newer name for Dixie. There is no difference. Whether is Dixie from New Orleans, Chicago, St. Louis, etc., it's the same thing as traditional jazz."

something does not compute here.

anyway, WAY off topic, but relevant if you're going to use "trad jazz" as a marketing tactic, or become a jazz historian.

Quoted from "jlindyhopr"
Mouth, I actually didn't know that (obviously). Thanks for setting the record straight and educating me on NY and SF's role. So, IYHO, what city do YOU think will be passed the lindy torch and why?

I'm old and fading out of the scene so I have no idea who's gonna be next. I moved to NYC before I started swing dancing, learned to dance in one of largest and most important scenes there was in the modern movement, and then watched it fade. Then I moved (for reasons completely unrelated to dance) to SF, another large and important scene that had faded by the time I got here.

To be honest, if I was thinking about dance scenes when I moved away from NYC I would have picked Seattle or DC or possibly Denver (since I moved in early 2006). But I wasn't, so I didn't.

I don't know who will be next, and I don't much care.

I'm glad NOLA is recovering from Katrina in general, and I'm glad the swing scene seems to be part of that recovery and development. I hope that continues because that means I'll have one more place to visit where I can also get some good dancing in if I choose. And I completely understand your excitement and home scene pride.

But I don't have much more to contribute to this thread than that. Sorry.

Quoted from "jlindyhopr"
In my opinion (and I've been dancing since the resurgence in 1997), DC was the first BIG scene. Tom and Debra paved the way by bringing in lots of renown instructors for workshops, teaching hundreds of people to dance on any given Saturday night (America at Tyson's Corner anyone?), and really promoting swing. The quality of leads and follows were amazing, and the events were incredible! And as a disclaimer for Charlie, I never said the scene is not amazing. It's still going strong, but it's not the 1 scene. Then when Hollywood style got big, LA had the next big scene. Camp Hollywood was a HUGE push for that scene, along with incredible instructors and dancers. After Hollywood style died down (again, disclaimer, the scene did not die, but the style did), it seemed that Seattle was next on the list. I have not had the pleasure of going there, but all of my girlfriends have told me that you will NEVER have a bad dance there since the quality of leads and followers are awesome. Plus you have big name instructors like Peter, Mia, and Todd (and there's more, but my mind is blank). Of course NY has a great scene too, but if you were to ask Steven Mitchell or other legends (I know cause I've asked) what the 1 dance scene is in the world, they'll tell you that Seattle is the 1 hot spot. Great dancing, great people, great instruction, etc. I'm just curious where the next big movement will take place. I truly think it will be New Orleans, and I think dancers will actively move here to be a part of the scene. Although, Montreal could definitely be another option. I have not had the pleasure of going there yet either.

Your history is really mistaken. This post is merely the first example. Per my experience DC was not the first huge scene to jumpstart the swing revival - LA was. LA is where two of really big swing bands came from (RCR and BBVD). It was the LA dancers that took this cute little fad that the punk rockers and rockabilly kids were playing with and made it viral. Erin Stevens and Steven Mitchell (LA dancers although Steven is both LA and NYC) discovered Frankie. There were lines around the block to get into the Derby in its heyday, more popular than ANY club has been before or since. Why,just the other day at the Derby's closing there was a guy saying that LA peaked around 1994 and went downhill starting in the late 90's when "Swingers" came out. People like him don't dance anymore. You don't know them, and the people you learned from learned from people who learned from them. We are 3-4 generations of dancers removed from people like him.

The way you set out the LA timeline shows that you don't really have a good grasp of the history of LA dancing.

The national scene has been through so many generations of dancers since the early 90's that it's really easy to lose track of how many people have participated in this hobby before you. There were people who had come and gone by the time I started dancing in 1998. And since they aren't part of your experience you don't count them in your history. That's understandable, but like mouth said, it's all part of a larger puzzle and none of us has the complete picture.The guy at the Derby thinks the scene died when he left it in the late 90's, but he too only has part of the puzzle.

I don't know what the biggest scene is right now, I don't care (it certainly aint LA) I just wanted to correct the profound lack of perspective here. I understand that you have your perspective, but it's important to recognize that your perspective is incomplete and not to write off whole cities like NYC and elevate cities like DC just because that's what you know. While I'm claiming that LA was where it really took off for the first time, I'm more than willing to entertain alternate ideas about that. I've read that the whole thing started in SF and came to LA from there, I've read that it started in NYC and went to LA, I've read that it was the Swedes who kept it alive and then brought it back to us via NYC and LA. There's all sorts of different perspectives that are important to note here, it's a MASSIVE history and no one has the complete experience.

Quoted from "Marcelo"
It's also important to note that because people have different value systems and different goals about what makes a scene kick butt, and because people remember things differently (old timers will tell you one thing Monday and another thing on Tuesday), that there's probably never going to be a definitive answer to these kinds of questions. Per my value system there are no really great scenes anymore and haven't been for some time.

I appreciate the added history. Although I do disagree with you that there isn't really a great scene. There's so many, and the old timers WILL tell you which ones are the hot scenes to watch and move to.

Also, through previous posts from various people, obviously we can set up a value system as to what makes a great scene, although your values may not necessarily agree with what others value. But since you don't care about contributing to the conversation of the next big scene (since you don't care about what makes a scene), I guess those values don't really matter in the end.

Actually, Larry Schultz brought Al Minns out of retirement, and then Frankie, and both were teaching and at the center of a vibrant (albiet small) scene here in NYC in the early 80s. Without that groundwork, both in the social scene that existed and then in the classroom, ain't none of what we have would be there. Or here. Or in New Jersey.

But absolutely without Steven/Erin and the Swedes, Wild Week and Catalina, we wouldn't have ANY of this.

Having cities all over the world where there is great dancing is super. I wouldn't move to a city just for the dancing- but I'd probably consider one city over another if one had a scene and another did not. I guess this conversation seems rather narrow to me, because when you're talking about which competitive dancers are moving where, and comparing this music to that music etc...eh, it's just not that interesting to me because it involves such a small subset of an already (comparatively) small subculture. If I were a competition dancer/national teacher/hoping to become a national teacher/star-[bleep!]er, I would definitely be more interested in it.

I think that there are WAY more factors than music and existing dancers that contribute to where the next biggest scene is going to be.

It seems to me that once the scene exploded from it's niche in the late 90's the places that it took off tended to be big urban areas with lots of young, college-age people, and lots of tech opportunities. Think lots of opportunity for young people who have free time and disposable income.

For short periods of time, things may be a bit different, but when you look at LA, DC, NYC, Seattle, and other cities that have been judged to be "the big" scenes at any time, I think you will find that they all have similar qualities in terms of educational and work opportunities, and that things other than the music or the dance itself really determine where the next big scene will be.

Quoted from "Marcelo"
marcelo's big post

Quoted from "Marcelo"
marcelo's small post

So the main points in what Marcelo is saying is basically what I already said. But that's cool because sometimes things need to be said twice on Yehoodi (or 57 times) before anyone hears them.