I am curious to know the definition of a proffessional lindy hop dancer. and the swing talk forum can be so dull. I have been going through different pages and I am more interested in current opinion on the subject.
Originally posted Friday, May 22, 2009 (3 years ago)
Brooksie, it s not all garbage. I think Massie views on pro s are based on her experience with Professionals in her scene. I don t know if Massie travels much or unfortunately runs into the Used Car Salesmen of dance instructors every time. I think we all can think of tons of instructors that are best ever like Chris and Holly, Donna Barker, Steven Mitchell, Erik and Sylvia, Sylvia Sykes (need I say more?) I think we also have know plenty of snobs (you know who they are)
And yes, can we please stop using the term rock stars ? it s so 2004
Originally posted Friday, May 22, 2009 (3 years ago)
Thank you Swing Villian. In the future I will not try to paint a picture with a wide brush or what have you. My experience with these matters are limited that is true.
Nor do I think that all lindy hop leads smell or dress badly or lack deordorant. This is not related to the subject of defining a lindy hop professional unless you are coming up with items that affect porfessional image. It is all a matter of opinion. It is on a case by case basis etc etc etc. IN my experience I had a few bad apples teach me lessons, yes. But as redshoe says that doesn't mean thet are not plenty of other nice smelling apples out there.
This thread should not be arcecatized by a troll hunt. For the act of trolling for trolls makes one a troll themselves. This thread is about defnitions of a Lindy Hop Professional and peoples opinions about that. If you have a troll issue then you should start a thread in the support category. Or you can search the discussion forum for an existing thread on trolls and post there. Troll pictures in this thread are unattractive, disruptive and inflamatory.
Originally posted Saturday, May 23, 2009 (3 years ago)
Maise, look, there's nothing more to gain from this thread. Everyone has pretty much told you the same thing - that you can't define a lindy hop professional. What more do you want?
Originally posted Saturday, May 23, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quoted from "Brooksie" I'm sure everyone here has met many friendly Pros because they are good people, and not because they are just trying to make money.
Brooksie are lindy hop professionals undefinable? Did you compose this earlier post with a specific opinion of what a lindy hop professional is? And I do think the the opinions do vary. Just think of how boring Yehoodi would be if everybody kept saying the same thing. I mean really.
Originally posted Saturday, May 23, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quoted from "Maisie" Brooksie are lindy hop professionals undefinable? Did you compose this earlier post with a specific opinion of what a lindy hop professional is?
Maybe undefinable is the wrong word. It's not that it's impossible to come up with a definition of "lindy hop professional". The problem is that it's impossible to come up with a useful definition of "lindy hop professional". The lindy hop community operates with a particular set of values that de-emphasize professional status. No definition of "lindy hop professional" can possibly be useful.
Ballroom dance today is primarily:
1) a performing art, and
2) a competitive sport.
Lindy hop, in contrast, is primarily:
1) a social activity,
2) a participatory art,
3) a social activity again,
4) a performing art,
5) still a social activity, and
6) a friendly competition.
Ballroom has professionals in the same way that gymnastics and ice-skating do, and for the same reasons. Maybe ballet too, to a lesser extent.
Lindy hop has professionals in more like the same way that Scrabble does. It's primarily a social activity, and nobody really cares if anybody's a professional. They care if you're really good, but professional status is not an important distinction.
Maybe contrast that with the other extreme... like, Law or something. Professional status is so important that they have different gradations of it, like you can be a lawyer, or you can be a paralegal, where you professionally assist lawyers, but don't necessarily carry a professional certification. One might ask a question like "what's the definition of a 'ballroom paralegal'?", and you might even come up with some distinction between various grades of professional status, but even if you did, nobody would care.
Quoted from "Maisie" And I do think the the opinions do vary. Just think of how boring Yehoodi would be if everybody kept saying the same thing. I mean really.
Exactly. I think Brooksie's point (if I may put words into his mouth) is that most everyone here is trying to use different means to make the same point to you, and it doesn't seem to be getting through, and it's making the thread really boring for him.
Originally posted Saturday, May 23, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quoted from "joeycat" can we pleeeeease declare a moratorium on using the phrase "rock stars" to describe the best of our lindy hoppers?
But then we'd have to declare a moratorium on the use of "star uckers" to describe the people who stalk those rockstars to dance with them as much as possible.
Originally posted Tuesday, May 26, 2009 (3 years ago)
drive_on_five,
I think there are a couple of items to keep in mind about your Rules :
1. It is NEVER acceptable to hurt your dance partner it is unfortunate that one would have to be told this rule . So if you can t do a move without hurting your partner Don t Do it! This is more than a rule it's a pre-requisite.
2. If you need to be told not to be creepy then you don't need to be on the dance floor but in a psychotherapists office.
3. as long of none of these rules are broken I think the dance partnership has been successful. If the follow does not like the way I dance outside of these things, then that is just her personal choice... she can choose not to dance with me in the future that's her prerogative. Really? Swing dancing is a Partner dance. If you are only focused on yourself having fun than you are missing the point. This is a partner dance and your focus should be on the both of you having fun together to the music. It seems pretty egotistical to say that as long as you re having fun it was a good dance but if your partner didn t then that's their problem. I ve seen a lot of leads (an a few follows) dance without regard to their partner. They could be dancing with a poll for all intent and purposes. That is dancing but not partner dancing.
All of your rules don't seem like rules but common sense.
Please don t take this personally because this is not directed at you exactly and I m not saying to be mean rather I m saying this to help you as a fellow dancer. Remember you asked them to dance, so dance with them.
Originally posted Tuesday, May 26, 2009 (3 years ago)
Hi Swing villain... you're right these "rules" are common sense. That was the point I was trying to make. I don't think there needs to be written or defined "rules" because the only things that should really matter are regulated by common sense (or in the case of creepy leads, the scene itself).
I'd like to clarify that having fun, for me, can't be achieved by being egocentrically focused. I'm sorry if that is how it sounded in my original post. For me the fun is in the interaction with the other person. This is my problem with formal structured "rules". I think sometimes (I'm not directing this at you) people can get soooooo caught up in everything apart from having fun and are so focused on technique and styling that they can forget that the dance is about interacting with their partner on a social level rather than participating in a physics lab. Or worse they think their styling is so important (and impressive) that they would much prefer to check themselves out in a mirror while social dancing, than make eye contact with their partner.
When I mentioned that the follow is free not to dance with me in the future if she did not like the way I dance; it was in the context of style and technique... not fun. For arguments sake lets say I always lead in on 1 because I'm really poor at leading on 2-3 (quite close to the truth... I have no qualms in saying that I am rhythmically challenged at times... though I'm working on it) but if a follow REALLY doesn't like being led in on 1, or has technical trouble with coming in on 1, then she can choose not to dance with me - that's her prerogative. There are follows in my scene, who I would consider good friends, that I don't dance with a lot because I find it really difficult to lead them (this is almost certainly my fault... as I said I'm quite new - I'm thinking my frame or connection is the problem), I'm sure as I grow this will change but for now I just don't ask them very often.
I think I agree with all the points made in your last post (definitely with points 1 and 2)... I'm not offended and thank you for spending the time to give some tips to a new dancer. I just think all the points you made support the argument for less rules and structure in lindy hop rather than more. I guess that's our only point of disagreement.
Originally posted Saturday, May 30, 2009 (3 years ago)
So due to some VERY WEIRD reactions to this thread. I have changed my email address. Over the last two weeks I have received several bizarre and weird emails from people who I assume to be crazy . It has been very very interesting. I also received a bunch of weird PM's but oh well. I mean what can one do?
So I think part of the big issue or "TO DO" about this is the "PROFESSIONAL LINDY HOPPER" thread. Personally I do not care what people think about this thread. I wasn't trying to offend anyone. And in fact, if you read the "ATTRACTIVE PROFESSIONAL TEACHER" thread, you will see the RubyMae makes a very interesting point about the discussion of attractive professional teachers. So that made me curious. And inquiring minds (like me) wanted to know the definition of a Lindy Hop Professional. So I started this thread for that reason. I did not start this thread to "OUT" anybody. I have more to type on this subject.
Originally posted Saturday, May 30, 2009 (3 years ago)
So there are several different points I would like to make. Ok maybe they are not points but just weird happenings. I had wanted to provide examples but someone advised me not to do that.
I get strange messages ALL the time, including fan mail. But usually people don't start randomly PMing me and emailing me in outrage. And many of the starnge messages I have received I think are a result of this thread.
People are just way too sensative about what professional status is. I mean really.
Originally posted Sunday, May 31, 2009 (3 years ago)
Interesting thread, only skimmed through it on the surface, 10 pages of posts seems a bit much to read afterall...
What I wanted to say... I'm quite new to Lindy, but what already strikes me about it is the freedom in it, freedom from rules, the possibility to improvise to incorporate new stuff... I've got a few years experience in salsa and tango (no Ballroom or other dances unfortunately), Lindy seems "freer" and more diverse to me...
I wouldn't want to see its creative and fun potential limited by standards and rules (be it in terms of figures or standards of teaching or in any other way) Im also convinced that lindy will develop and change in future (incorporate new ideas and moves, also music), and not just focus on its origins (even though they're important too)
Originally posted Sunday, May 31, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quoted from "Big Mike"
Quoted from "joeycat" can we pleeeeease declare a moratorium on using the phrase "rock stars" to describe the best of our lindy hoppers?
But then we'd have to declare a moratorium on the use of "star uckers" to describe the people who stalk those rockstars to dance with them as much as possible.
MB
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I am curious to know the definition of a proffessional lindy hop dancer. and the swing talk forum can be so dull. I have been going through different pages and I am more interested in current opinion on the subject.
Page(s): < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... (283 items total)
Brooksie, it s not all garbage. I think Massie views on pro s are based on her experience with Professionals in her scene. I don t know if Massie travels much or unfortunately runs into the Used Car Salesmen of dance instructors every time. I think we all can think of tons of instructors that are best ever like Chris and Holly, Donna Barker, Steven Mitchell, Erik and Sylvia, Sylvia Sykes (need I say more?) I think we also have know plenty of snobs (you know who they are)
And yes, can we please stop using the term rock stars ? it s so 2004
Thank you Swing Villian. In the future I will not try to paint a picture with a wide brush or what have you. My experience with these matters are limited that is true.
Nor do I think that all lindy hop leads smell or dress badly or lack deordorant. This is not related to the subject of defining a lindy hop professional unless you are coming up with items that affect porfessional image. It is all a matter of opinion. It is on a case by case basis etc etc etc. IN my experience I had a few bad apples teach me lessons, yes. But as redshoe says that doesn't mean thet are not plenty of other nice smelling apples out there.
This thread should not be arcecatized by a troll hunt. For the act of trolling for trolls makes one a troll themselves. This thread is about defnitions of a Lindy Hop Professional and peoples opinions about that. If you have a troll issue then you should start a thread in the support category. Or you can search the discussion forum for an existing thread on trolls and post there. Troll pictures in this thread are unattractive, disruptive and inflamatory.
Maise, look, there's nothing more to gain from this thread. Everyone has pretty much told you the same thing - that you can't define a lindy hop professional. What more do you want?
Brooksie are lindy hop professionals undefinable? Did you compose this earlier post with a specific opinion of what a lindy hop professional is? And I do think the the opinions do vary. Just think of how boring Yehoodi would be if everybody kept saying the same thing. I mean really.
Maybe undefinable is the wrong word. It's not that it's impossible to come up with a definition of "lindy hop professional". The problem is that it's impossible to come up with a useful definition of "lindy hop professional". The lindy hop community operates with a particular set of values that de-emphasize professional status. No definition of "lindy hop professional" can possibly be useful.
Ballroom dance today is primarily: 1) a performing art, and 2) a competitive sport.
Lindy hop, in contrast, is primarily: 1) a social activity, 2) a participatory art, 3) a social activity again, 4) a performing art, 5) still a social activity, and 6) a friendly competition.
Ballroom has professionals in the same way that gymnastics and ice-skating do, and for the same reasons. Maybe ballet too, to a lesser extent.
Lindy hop has professionals in more like the same way that Scrabble does. It's primarily a social activity, and nobody really cares if anybody's a professional. They care if you're really good, but professional status is not an important distinction.
Maybe contrast that with the other extreme... like, Law or something. Professional status is so important that they have different gradations of it, like you can be a lawyer, or you can be a paralegal, where you professionally assist lawyers, but don't necessarily carry a professional certification. One might ask a question like "what's the definition of a 'ballroom paralegal'?", and you might even come up with some distinction between various grades of professional status, but even if you did, nobody would care.
Exactly. I think Brooksie's point (if I may put words into his mouth) is that most everyone here is trying to use different means to make the same point to you, and it doesn't seem to be getting through, and it's making the thread really boring for him.
But then we'd have to declare a moratorium on the use of "star uckers" to describe the people who stalk those rockstars to dance with them as much as possible.
MB
drive_on_five, I think there are a couple of items to keep in mind about your Rules : 1. It is NEVER acceptable to hurt your dance partner it is unfortunate that one would have to be told this rule . So if you can t do a move without hurting your partner Don t Do it! This is more than a rule it's a pre-requisite. 2. If you need to be told not to be creepy then you don't need to be on the dance floor but in a psychotherapists office. 3. as long of none of these rules are broken I think the dance partnership has been successful. If the follow does not like the way I dance outside of these things, then that is just her personal choice... she can choose not to dance with me in the future that's her prerogative. Really? Swing dancing is a Partner dance. If you are only focused on yourself having fun than you are missing the point. This is a partner dance and your focus should be on the both of you having fun together to the music. It seems pretty egotistical to say that as long as you re having fun it was a good dance but if your partner didn t then that's their problem. I ve seen a lot of leads (an a few follows) dance without regard to their partner. They could be dancing with a poll for all intent and purposes. That is dancing but not partner dancing.
All of your rules don't seem like rules but common sense.
Please don t take this personally because this is not directed at you exactly and I m not saying to be mean rather I m saying this to help you as a fellow dancer. Remember you asked them to dance, so dance with them.
Hi Swing villain... you're right these "rules" are common sense. That was the point I was trying to make. I don't think there needs to be written or defined "rules" because the only things that should really matter are regulated by common sense (or in the case of creepy leads, the scene itself).
I'd like to clarify that having fun, for me, can't be achieved by being egocentrically focused. I'm sorry if that is how it sounded in my original post. For me the fun is in the interaction with the other person. This is my problem with formal structured "rules". I think sometimes (I'm not directing this at you) people can get soooooo caught up in everything apart from having fun and are so focused on technique and styling that they can forget that the dance is about interacting with their partner on a social level rather than participating in a physics lab. Or worse they think their styling is so important (and impressive) that they would much prefer to check themselves out in a mirror while social dancing, than make eye contact with their partner.
When I mentioned that the follow is free not to dance with me in the future if she did not like the way I dance; it was in the context of style and technique... not fun. For arguments sake lets say I always lead in on 1 because I'm really poor at leading on 2-3 (quite close to the truth... I have no qualms in saying that I am rhythmically challenged at times... though I'm working on it) but if a follow REALLY doesn't like being led in on 1, or has technical trouble with coming in on 1, then she can choose not to dance with me - that's her prerogative. There are follows in my scene, who I would consider good friends, that I don't dance with a lot because I find it really difficult to lead them (this is almost certainly my fault... as I said I'm quite new - I'm thinking my frame or connection is the problem), I'm sure as I grow this will change but for now I just don't ask them very often.
I think I agree with all the points made in your last post (definitely with points 1 and 2)... I'm not offended and thank you for spending the time to give some tips to a new dancer. I just think all the points you made support the argument for less rules and structure in lindy hop rather than more. I guess that's our only point of disagreement.
Thanks for the reply.
So due to some VERY WEIRD reactions to this thread. I have changed my email address. Over the last two weeks I have received several bizarre and weird emails from people who I assume to be crazy . It has been very very interesting. I also received a bunch of weird PM's but oh well. I mean what can one do?
So I think part of the big issue or "TO DO" about this is the "PROFESSIONAL LINDY HOPPER" thread. Personally I do not care what people think about this thread. I wasn't trying to offend anyone. And in fact, if you read the "ATTRACTIVE PROFESSIONAL TEACHER" thread, you will see the RubyMae makes a very interesting point about the discussion of attractive professional teachers. So that made me curious. And inquiring minds (like me) wanted to know the definition of a Lindy Hop Professional. So I started this thread for that reason. I did not start this thread to "OUT" anybody. I have more to type on this subject.
So there are several different points I would like to make. Ok maybe they are not points but just weird happenings. I had wanted to provide examples but someone advised me not to do that.
I get strange messages ALL the time, including fan mail. But usually people don't start randomly PMing me and emailing me in outrage. And many of the starnge messages I have received I think are a result of this thread.
People are just way too sensative about what professional status is. I mean really.
I think yehoodi is on crack, this week. Or maybe it got the swine flue from last weekend?
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
Interesting thread, only skimmed through it on the surface, 10 pages of posts seems a bit much to read afterall...
What I wanted to say... I'm quite new to Lindy, but what already strikes me about it is the freedom in it, freedom from rules, the possibility to improvise to incorporate new stuff... I've got a few years experience in salsa and tango (no Ballroom or other dances unfortunately), Lindy seems "freer" and more diverse to me... I wouldn't want to see its creative and fun potential limited by standards and rules (be it in terms of figures or standards of teaching or in any other way) Im also convinced that lindy will develop and change in future (incorporate new ideas and moves, also music), and not just focus on its origins (even though they're important too)
Didn't know there was a word for that.. AWESOME!
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