I am curious to know the definition of a proffessional lindy hop dancer. and the swing talk forum can be so dull. I have been going through different pages and I am more interested in current opinion on the subject.
Originally posted Tuesday, May 12, 2009 (3 years ago)
Talk about confusing. When I first went to a Richmond dance and some crazy wacko told my friends that sex parties occur at lindy exchanges and that lindy pros attend. This was back when I was way new to everything and thought this garbage rumor to be true. I sat out that entire nite and didn't dance. This week I'm on vacation with Jemma and we've been talking a lot about this. The point is you can't trust people sometimes. Exhcanges are fun. Peoples views on pros or whatever are stange. If you go to a social dance, don't try to get factual information on how competitions work. People will tell you crazy things. There are a lot of snobs in the lindy world. It makes it hard for new dancers to understand when you have experienced dancers throwing you lines of crap.
Originally posted Tuesday, May 12, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quoted from "Maisie" ... I have a small group of friends who dance in our local area, and we get poo'd on enough by snobbish lindy rock stars (one in particular) who feels the need to poke fun at dancers who do both Lindy and ballroom...
The actions of one person should be taken as simply that - one person's actions. Are you sure that was a Lindy RockStar, or a wannabeLindyRockstar - there's a HUGE difference. The true lindy rockstars I have encountered have immediately noticed that I have a ballroom and ballet background, and have guessed that I have trouble doing some of the lindy moves because I'm not used to the Lindy posture, and they've worked with me in a very friendly way within a song or two to help me try a different technique. The wannabeRockStars are PITAs - plain and simple - and IMHO do nothing to foster growth in the Lindy scene.
Quoted from "Maisie" This is almost my fourth year attending lindy events. And having attended two major east coast events and one in the midwest I still haven't the foggiest clue as to how lindy competitions work or who or what makes a pro. Or what rules are for proam. These events do definatiely scare people who are new.
A question - if you're new, what does it matter what the rules are for pro or proam? And I agree, competitive events would be scary for anyone new - ballroom competitive events are just as scary if you're new and alone, because you're not part of the "clique" and you don't know anyone, and no one knows you. If you go as a group, with other newbies, it's less scary - the same with lindy competitions.
Quoted from "Maisie" There is a bad attitude in genral to newcommers in the lindy hop world. When people try to understand it they get nothing but vile little snarks.
Are you talking about the online discussions? Or at events? In New York, I've never witnessed bad attitude to newcomers. I've witnessed the typical cliques you have where a bunch of people know each other, have spent years together with each other, not just dancing but hanging out too, and there's history, and now a newcomer, who doesn't understand the jokes, doesn't understand how everyone fits together, tries to fit it. There's bound to be discomfort - and I believe that's normal, whether you're starting at a new job, a new school, etc. IMHO Online discussions are similar in a way - primary contributors are often well-known in real life to other primary contributors, and there's a clique - in addition, there are those who have a long-earned reputation of being a certain way in their discussions ... and IMHO there is freedom of speech here. Could they perhaps be a little more tolerant? Of course. Could newbies be more specific with their statements, answer the questions, so that the veterans can help them understand things more clearly? Yes. So I guess it works both ways. I have witnessed that where newbies have expressed a true interest in learning something, and have not just flung insults at those who have been in the scene a while, they have not been snubbed, not received vile snarky comments. But the newbies who have thrown out shock statements, refused to respond to questions, thrown out insults about dancers ... they seem to get the finger/tongue lashing.
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Originally posted Tuesday, May 12, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quote
Quote Maisie wrote:
There is a bad attitude in genral to newcommers in the lindy hop world. When people try to understand it they get nothing but vile little snarks.
This "bad attitude" you speak of is not just in the lindy hop world, it is the same in any group of people who have a common interest.
I'm going to address a few points here.
First off at least in my personal experiences Lindy Hop has been one of the more friendly if not most friendly communities in my life. Not to say I have not had a few bad experiences, but they are greatly overshadowed by the amount of kindness that has been shown by people who I have never met before when I have visited their dance scenes for workshops or exchanges.
However, I agree with sdswinger on the point that making these sweeping blanket statements come off as in bad taste and offensive. I understand Maise that you are trying to define something, but saying sweeping statements, (especially with the tone of your recent posts) that will offend the community you are trying to post on is generally not a good way of going about it.
Lastly, everyone else feel free to debate points but please try to refrain from personal attacks. I can understand the frustration, but there is no need for us to shoot spitballs at each other from across the classroom :D
Originally posted Tuesday, May 12, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quoted from "Maisie" ...... Some dancers at these events do smell, practice poor hygiene and the rest. It's only a small little part of professional image or what have you.....
Again, I've never met a professional, semi-pro, or serious amateur dancer who smelled bad or had poor hygiene.
I know of social dancers who smell bad and have poor hygiene.
But again, if you are at an event where social dancing is going on, then you should realize it's all about being social. If the venue has poor ventilation, then people are going to sweat.
Pro level dancers like to dance as much as the rest of us, and in a social dance setting, they want to dance!
Haven't you seen pro level dancers while teaching classes, competing, or judging? Even if the event has a causal atmosphere, when there is a call for professionalism, then it's received . . . even if they're wearing jeans and a t-shirt.
Originally posted Tuesday, May 12, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quoted from "Maisie" This is almost my fourth year attending lindy events. And having attended two major east coast events and one in the midwest I still haven't the foggiest clue as to how lindy competitions work or who or what makes a pro. Or what rules are for proam. These events do definatiely scare people who are new.
So my question would be; Why does it matter what qualifies them as a pro? If you go to an event and there are people teaching and there are people judging, those are the people you learn from and who judge your competition. Generally speaking, the people who are instructors and judges and headline national events are people who have proven themselves to the community as a whole either by competition, by performance, by competent instruction, or just by begin a bad-ass social dancer.
If you are looking for some sort of structure by which you compete, rise through the rankings, maybe have quantifiable levels of expertise, and come out of the top as a sanctioned and qualified professional/expert...well, you aren't going to find that in Lindy Hop. And the Lindy Community has resisted (and will hopefully continue to) every attempt to make it structured.
The opinion of the Lindy Hop community in the past has been that along with the regulations, the levels, the categories, the rankings, and such that is present in the Ballroom community (and to a lesser extent, the West Coast Swing community) comes codification of the dance and a slow bleeding of the vitality that people associate with the living and constantly changing dance of Lindy Hop. They don't see Ballroom dances, as danced by Dancesport, as having the same vitality, living and changing qualities that Lindy Hop does. There is too much regulation and ranking, too much concern about what is "correct" for the dances.
As seen by the rise of events like ULHS, ILHC and others, Lindy Hop has gone the opposite direction. The Lindy community prefers competitions with as few rules and regulations as possible. No one cares how many points you have. They only care if you can dance. The Lindy Hop judges are picked because they are viewed to be people who "know it when they see it". That way the comps are open to almost anything a dancer wants to throw down, as long as it is Lindy Hop, or works with Lindy Hop.
I can see why, if you were coming from a very structured competition format, the open-ness of the Lindy comps could be scary. You have no idea what you are being judged to, or maybe even what the judges are looking for...but that's the way Lindy Hoppers like it.
Someone earlier in this thread posted something to the extent of how the Lindy Hoppers needed to get with it (or something similar) in order to be on board for when Dancesport goes to the Olympics or something like that. With all due respect, I think that many Lindy Hoppers would consider that a backwards idea. Dancing a dance inside carefully contrived and controlled rules and circumstances designed so that something is easily judged correct or not correct may make a dance beautiful and easier to understand, but it will rob it of much of it s vitality and life over time, because it restricts where the dance can grow and how it can change and evolve. Keep the "sport" out of the dance.
Quoted from "Maisie" There is a bad attitude in genral to newcommers in the lindy hop world. When people try to understand it they get nothing but vile little snarks.
I think that what often happens is that newcomers who come into Lindy Hop expecting to find something like the Ballroom world, or are of the opinion that having that kind of structure would be better than the haphazard craziness that is Lindy Hop, and they express that as if the Lindy Hoppers are somehow lacking or missing out on something, then yes, there is certainly backlash against that. But from the amount of people who come take Lindy lessons off the street in Lindy classes all over the country every week, I don t think that there is a bad attitude, in general, towards newcomers.
Originally posted Tuesday, May 12, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quoted from "Maisie"
Quoted from "Racetrack" So don't be shy. C'mon out and see us in our natural habitat doing our curious native dances and social rituals. Who knows? Perhaps you may eventually "go native" and become one of us.
Um, excuse me. But I consider myself just as much a part of the lindy hop world just as anyone else. And if by going native you mean wearing unattractive sports wear and forgoing the use of deodorant I will certainly have no part of it. And as for sparkley clothes and sequins. I think they are a welcomed part of the lindy hop. I have seen Norma Miller wear beautiful sparkly sequins on film and at LIVE appearances as well. As once I saw her wearing a beautiful vest with a stone count as high as any quality ballroom gown.
The problem is, at least in this thread, you seem to address your comments in a way that sounds like "You people dress like tramps and smell bad". This is not inclusive language. It comes across as the language of an outsider telling people in the lindy community how they must change their ways to become more attractive to outsiders.
You are entitled to your opinions ... but the community whose core consists of long-term regular dancers who frequently gather at local weekly events (where available) and national/regional events have the right to follow (or not follow) your recommendations as they see fit.
As to your confusion regarding how lindy competitions work ... the basic information is in several previous posts in this thread. If you need more info you can always talk to one of the competitors or judges at an event you attend and ask questions.
As to the cliquishness at regional/national events you implied in a recent post: We do try to be as welcoming to newcomers as possible. There is turnover in our community (mostly due to people moving away for work, moving away to be closer to extended family, or having kids that need babysitters whenever they go out). A major social understanding for experienced dancers is, "go out of your way to dance with newcomers to make them feel welcome". Without a welcoming attitude towards newcomers our community would die within two to three years at the most. As you can see, it hasn't so far.
At the same time, people who have been in the community for a while tend to gather in groups during these events to catch up with each other. If you only see certain people once or twice a year, you spend as much time with them as you can when the opportunity arises. Friends get to do that. To become a part of a circle of friends of this sort, just dance with a lot of people and introduce yourself. There is no application or "membership committee" approval involved. Not rocket science, just ordinary social networking.
....
As to attire:
The way a lot of the clothing you object to has appeared in the lindy social scene is that at intermediate and above workshops people have found it's best to dress the same way performance dancers dress during training and rehearsal. This translates into sweats or leotards or slacks/jeans with a t-shirt/sweat shirt. (The performance dancers attending these workshops started this trend. It was picked up by the rest of us at our first workshops because ... well it was obviously the best thing to do.)
This is necessary because these workshops involve vigorous physical activity at the level of a gym workout. In fact, some of these workshops begin with a round of stretching exercises and calisthenics.
At informal social dances, a lot of people dress the way they do when attending workshops ... especially those that push their physical limits and feel the need to change tops one or more times during the course of a typical evening. FWIW - At the social lindy dances I have attended over the past ten years, for the most part the people who tended to sweat while social dancing not only brought along spare tops but also tended to use deodorant.
More formal social dances (typically Saturday night dances at exchanges, competition weekends, or workshop weekends) usually are advertised as such by specifically recommending formal or semi-formal attire. For this sort of thing I generally wear a tux. Some of the ladies wear evening gowns. The less formally inclined men wear a suit and tie or slacks/shirt/tie or slacks/shirt/tie with non-matching jacket. The less formally inclined women wear a suitable non-formal dress or skirt/blouse combination.
Since the dress code for these dances is a recommendation, not a "rule", nobody is denied entry for dressing down - but the numbers of people who don't follow this recommendation are low. One time when ULHC had a dance like this at the Varsity theater a block or so from nearby parking ramp my son and I noticed with some amusement how much the parade of people walking from their cars looked like a crowd of people going to a senior prom!
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
Originally posted Tuesday, May 12, 2009 (3 years ago)
I would gladly forego deodorant AND build my wardrobe from the leftovers of a "well picked through" thrift store sale; if that is what it would take to keep me from . . .
Originally posted Tuesday, May 12, 2009 (3 years ago)
I think the issue of dancer odor is completely separate. I see how it is remotely connected to the subject of professionalism. I'm certainly reading into a tangent about social dancers and cleanliness in general. I think its good that people ask these types of questions and "what defines a lindy pro". As a student who is eagar to learn quality lindy, I plan to spend a considerable amount of money in an effort to improve. People market themselves with pro titles, as Billy Bakelite stated earlier. He makes an excelent point. There are many issues about fairness that make this an important debate. In regards to professional titles, who grants them? Can a judge at a lindy hop event also teach during the same event for porfit? I see a major conflict there if this is allowed.
Originally posted Tuesday, May 12, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quoted from "zsa" In regards to professional titles, who grants them? Can a judge at a lindy hop event also teach during the same event for porfit? I see a major conflict there is this is allowed.
Lindy hop doesn't really have professional titles. Sure we have competitions that people put down on there dance resume where they may have placed first or whatever...but there aren't titles per se...
At at lot of lindy hop workshop/compeition events the teachers are also the ones judging. This is a common thing, we have no problem with it, and see no conflict.
I may not live there anymore, but my dancing feet will always be from L.A.
Originally posted Tuesday, May 12, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quoted from "zsa" In regards to professional titles, who grants them? Can a judge at a lindy hop event also teach during the same event for porfit? I see a major conflict there is this is allowed.
Judges teach and compete at the same event all the time. Generally speaking if a pro dancer wins a title in Balboa at an event (for example), then the event organizer may ask them to come back next year and teach Balboa and judge the Balboa contest.
They may decline judging so they can compete if they choose.
Someone who judges one event, will probably compete in another event, even if they are or are not teaching at the event.
I don't see this as a conflict, it's just good business. Any respectable event organizer would want the best dancers to teach, judge, and compete at their event, because it would bring out more people and give more credit and status to the event.
Originally posted Tuesday, May 12, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quoted from "zsa" As a student who is eagar to learn quality lindy, I plan to spend a considerable amount of money in an effort to improve. People market themselves with pro titles, as Billy Bakelite stated earlier. He makes an excelent point. There are many issues about fairness that make this an important debate. In regards to professional titles, who grants them? Can a judge at a lindy hop event also teach during the same event for porfit? I see a major conflict there if this is allowed.
The important point is there is no professional title/certification granting body like you might find in other professions, including ballroom dancing. Consider it recognition by informal community consensus. Just like many social norms are different in other countries or cultures, the criteria for a professional can differ between dance communities.
Perhaps it's not even appropriate to call Lindy Hop a profession then there would be no such thing as a Lindy Hop professional. Lindy Hop can still be an occupation or career path and even a primary occupation or career for those with other jobs, even if it's not a profession.
As for your own learning experience, try taking lessons with many different instructors. You'll find that there is a lot of variation and you mesh better with some instructors than others. You will recognize the good instructors, professionals from their ethos teaching and interactions with others in the context of Lindy Hop. I always encourage my students to take classes with as many different instructors as they can. I'd question the motives and ethos of instructors who discourage their students from learning from different instructors (from different studios if your dance community is structured that way).
Choosing a Lindy Hop teacher is like choosing what kind of ice cream you want from the local 31 flavors. You have your favorite flavors and I have mine and we can always sample the ones we haven't tried to expand our ice cream experience.
Originally posted Tuesday, May 12, 2009 (3 years ago)
Video Examples... You want a video example of total and complete :sayno: :thumbdown: :bonk: Lindy Hop? Lookey Here [don't say you weren't warned] http://www.ehow.com/video_4974537_do-lindy-hop.html
You've got a "PROFESSIONAL" who is "Teaching". And what she is teaching is poor technique with incorrect history.
:crash:
--R
y i no haz signature? Come on people, make with the funny.
Originally posted Tuesday, May 12, 2009 (3 years ago)
Who is a Professional Lindy Hopper is done by proclamation:
The one wishing to be a Professional publicly proclaims themselves to be a Professional.
If they are not worthy of the title, they will be laughed at and ridiculed by their peers. But if worthy of the title...actually, they will still be laughed at and ridiculed by their peers for being so pompous as to make a public proclamation.
Originally posted Tuesday, May 12, 2009 (3 years ago)
Zenin FTW.
Quoted from "TheRiz" Video Examples... You want a video example of total and complete :sayno: :thumbdown: :bonk: Lindy Hop? Lookey Here [don't say you weren't warned] http://www.ehow.com/video_4974537_do-lindy-hop.html
You've got a "PROFESSIONAL" who is "Teaching". And what she is teaching is poor technique with incorrect history.
--R
I'd say the technique is not representative of community consensus or at the very least an insufficient example. The history is certainly incorrect and inconsistent with the documented and oral histories I'm familiar which would certainly lead me to question her teaching credentials.
Another thought is a common marketers trick of "expert" testimony. It reminds me of a recently aired television commercial for LCD televisions where an individual declares the televisions are better and he should know because he is an expert. The text sub-title indicates he is an astro-physicist. Certainly he is probably an expert on many things space but he is not an expert on televisions. One type of professional is not necessarily a Lindy Hop professional.
Originally posted Tuesday, May 12, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quoted from "TheRiz" Video Examples... You want a video example of total and complete :sayno: :thumbdown: :bonk: Lindy Hop? Lookey Here [don't say you weren't warned] http://www.ehow.com/video_4974537_do-lindy-hop.html
You've got a "PROFESSIONAL" who is "Teaching". And what she is teaching is poor technique with incorrect history.
:crash:
--R
agh!!!! I am speechless... in addition to just sucking, that isn't even lindy hop. At all.
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
Originally posted Wednesday, May 13, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quoted from "thedrizzle"
Right, because it's THE lindy hop, from THE charleston and THE jazz.
Actually I have a question about that specifically, I have heard a lot of ballroom dancers call it THE Lindy Hop..what's with adding "THE" on the beginning?
I may not live there anymore, but my dancing feet will always be from L.A.
Originally posted Wednesday, May 13, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quoted from "fiddletree"
Quoted from "TheRiz" Video Examples... You want a video example of total and complete :sayno: :thumbdown: :bonk: Lindy Hop? Lookey Here [don't say you weren't warned] http://www.ehow.com/video_4974537_do-lindy-hop.html
You've got a "PROFESSIONAL" who is "Teaching". And what she is teaching is poor technique with incorrect history.
:crash:
--R
agh!!!! I am speechless... in addition to just sucking, that isn't even lindy hop. At all.
it looked a little like 20s charleston, but I'm still missing the "6 count" part... If anyone has ever taken a class from her please forget it immediately. Thats even worse than the expert village videos on youtube.
Originally posted Wednesday, May 13, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quoted from "fiddletree"
Quoted from "TheRiz" Video Examples... You want a video example of total and complete :sayno: :thumbdown: :bonk: Lindy Hop? Lookey Here [don't say you weren't warned] http://www.ehow.com/video_4974537_do-lindy-hop.html
You've got a "PROFESSIONAL" who is "Teaching". And what she is teaching is poor technique with incorrect history.
:crash:
--R
agh!!!! I am speechless... in addition to just sucking, that isn't even lindy hop. At all.
I think she was attempting Charleston and calling it Lindy..but still doing both incorrectly.
Originally posted Wednesday, May 13, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quoted from "SHORTYJOY"
Quoted from "fiddletree"
Quoted from "TheRiz" Video Examples... You want a video example of total and complete :sayno: :thumbdown: :bonk: Lindy Hop? Lookey Here [don't say you weren't warned] http://www.ehow.com/video_4974537_do-lindy-hop.html
You've got a "PROFESSIONAL" who is "Teaching". And what she is teaching is poor technique with incorrect history.
:crash:
--R
agh!!!! I am speechless... in addition to just sucking, that isn't even lindy hop. At all.
I think she was attempting Charleston and calling it Lindy..but still doing both incorrectly.
Thats what I was figuring. But it still made me wanna barf a little :green:
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
Originally posted Wednesday, May 13, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quoted from "sdswinger" Actually I have a question about that specifically, I have heard a lot of ballroom dancers call it THE Lindy Hop..what's with adding "THE" on the beginning?
Because it's also the Quickstep, the Merengue, the Paso Doble, etc.
Actually, I have no problem with someone who dances "the blues" "the collegiate shag" or "the charleston" or "the lindy hop" (or Charleston or Lindy hop or Lindy Hop ... as long as someone is consistent).
Damn, that's some petty sh!t to get uptight about.
Originally posted Wednesday, May 13, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quoted from "Oli" When I first went to a Richmond dance and some crazy wacko told my friends that sex parties occur at lindy exchanges and that lindy pros attend. This was back when I was way new to everything and thought this garbage rumor to be true. I sat out that entire nite and didn't dance.
How interesting. . .the same thing happened to me!! It was quite a bizarre conversation. . .I can say that I have since attended a couple of exchanges. . .and thankfully was not confronted with any weird sex parties!
Originally posted Wednesday, May 13, 2009 (3 years ago)
The Lindy Hop has not been given proper credit in the Fred Astaire world that I am part of. I have seen a displayed Arthur Murray Lindy Hop syllabus that contains a written description of the dance. It did give credit to Frankie Manning.
Originally posted Wednesday, May 13, 2009 (3 years ago)
I still think that from a consumer standpoint, there should be an official definition of a pro lindy instructor. This definition can vary, but it should be provided by any event hosting a competition. People market themselves based on titles they receive at these various ALHC type events. New students spend money based on the limited dance inforamtion available to them. I have yet to see a link posted for any rules governing a lindy hop event.
Originally posted Wednesday, May 13, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quoted from "zsa" I still think that from a consumer standpoint, there should be an official definition of a pro lindy instructor. This definition can vary, but it should be provided by any event hosting a competition. People market themselves based on titles they receive at these various ALHC type events. New students spend money based on the limited dance inforamtion available to them. I have yet to see a link posted for any rules governing a lindy hop event.
It seems that you're not understanding that there is no governing body for Lindy Hop. Each competition will have its own rules - for example here are the rules for ALHC in 2005
And here are the rules for the upcoming North East Lindy Hop Championships.
Here are the rules for the International Lindy hop Championships.
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Originally posted Wednesday, May 13, 2009 (3 years ago)
Quoted from "roxi"
Quoted from "Oli" When I first went to a Richmond dance and some crazy wacko told my friends that sex parties occur at lindy exchanges and that lindy pros attend. This was back when I was way new to everything and thought this garbage rumor to be true. I sat out that entire nite and didn't dance.
How interesting. . .the same thing happened to me!! It was quite a bizarre conversation. . .I can say that I have since attended a couple of exchanges. . .and thankfully was not confronted with any weird sex parties!
I don't think you ever had anything to worry about - the "sex parties" are invitation only. i
Originally posted Wednesday, May 13, 2009 (3 years ago)
That video was the worst example of teaching something you nothing about since Steven Mitchell taught "the waltz" at Beantown.
I don't think there is any inherent reason why Ballroom pros can't be good Lindy Hop teachers. I thinks there's just not the tradition, & in their world not the competitive incentives.
Paul Grecki at Sandra Cameron's is/was an excellent ballroom & Lindy Hop teacher. Ditto Joe Palmer at Dance Manhattan who is expert in both genres.
Stepping Out Studios in NYC had/has several good ballroom/salsa teachers who are also good Lindy teachers.
I think in NYC its probably easier to get cross pollination.
Originally posted Wednesday, May 13, 2009 (3 years ago)
Zsa, if you go to the website of any event they usually have the rules and competition info posted. If you want to know what you're being judged on... good luck.
I have heard that talking to the judges prior to the competition is a good way to find out generally what they are looking for. However, this could easily be misleading since one judge may think x is a good thing, while another judge thinks x is a bad thing. mob scene.
Again, there is no definition of an official "pro." Hopefully there never will be... Marketing is marketing and it is up to you, the consumer, to figure out if an instructor is worth your time/money.
Professional Lindy Hoppers
I am curious to know the definition of a proffessional lindy hop dancer. and the swing talk forum can be so dull. I have been going through different pages and I am more interested in current opinion on the subject.
Page(s): < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Next > (283 items total)
Talk about confusing. When I first went to a Richmond dance and some crazy wacko told my friends that sex parties occur at lindy exchanges and that lindy pros attend. This was back when I was way new to everything and thought this garbage rumor to be true. I sat out that entire nite and didn't dance. This week I'm on vacation with Jemma and we've been talking a lot about this. The point is you can't trust people sometimes. Exhcanges are fun. Peoples views on pros or whatever are stange. If you go to a social dance, don't try to get factual information on how competitions work. People will tell you crazy things. There are a lot of snobs in the lindy world. It makes it hard for new dancers to understand when you have experienced dancers throwing you lines of crap.
I think you may have misunderstood what that person was saying.
The actions of one person should be taken as simply that - one person's actions. Are you sure that was a Lindy RockStar, or a wannabeLindyRockstar - there's a HUGE difference. The true lindy rockstars I have encountered have immediately noticed that I have a ballroom and ballet background, and have guessed that I have trouble doing some of the lindy moves because I'm not used to the Lindy posture, and they've worked with me in a very friendly way within a song or two to help me try a different technique. The wannabeRockStars are PITAs - plain and simple - and IMHO do nothing to foster growth in the Lindy scene.
A question - if you're new, what does it matter what the rules are for pro or proam? And I agree, competitive events would be scary for anyone new - ballroom competitive events are just as scary if you're new and alone, because you're not part of the "clique" and you don't know anyone, and no one knows you. If you go as a group, with other newbies, it's less scary - the same with lindy competitions.
Are you talking about the online discussions? Or at events? In New York, I've never witnessed bad attitude to newcomers. I've witnessed the typical cliques you have where a bunch of people know each other, have spent years together with each other, not just dancing but hanging out too, and there's history, and now a newcomer, who doesn't understand the jokes, doesn't understand how everyone fits together, tries to fit it. There's bound to be discomfort - and I believe that's normal, whether you're starting at a new job, a new school, etc. IMHO Online discussions are similar in a way - primary contributors are often well-known in real life to other primary contributors, and there's a clique - in addition, there are those who have a long-earned reputation of being a certain way in their discussions ... and IMHO there is freedom of speech here. Could they perhaps be a little more tolerant? Of course. Could newbies be more specific with their statements, answer the questions, so that the veterans can help them understand things more clearly? Yes. So I guess it works both ways. I have witnessed that where newbies have expressed a true interest in learning something, and have not just flung insults at those who have been in the scene a while, they have not been snubbed, not received vile snarky comments. But the newbies who have thrown out shock statements, refused to respond to questions, thrown out insults about dancers ... they seem to get the finger/tongue lashing.
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
I'm going to address a few points here.
First off at least in my personal experiences Lindy Hop has been one of the more friendly if not most friendly communities in my life. Not to say I have not had a few bad experiences, but they are greatly overshadowed by the amount of kindness that has been shown by people who I have never met before when I have visited their dance scenes for workshops or exchanges.
However, I agree with sdswinger on the point that making these sweeping blanket statements come off as in bad taste and offensive. I understand Maise that you are trying to define something, but saying sweeping statements, (especially with the tone of your recent posts) that will offend the community you are trying to post on is generally not a good way of going about it.
Lastly, everyone else feel free to debate points but please try to refrain from personal attacks. I can understand the frustration, but there is no need for us to shoot spitballs at each other from across the classroom :D
If you are bored check out my blog... http://taintwhatyoudo.wordpress.com/
Again, I've never met a professional, semi-pro, or serious amateur dancer who smelled bad or had poor hygiene.
I know of social dancers who smell bad and have poor hygiene.
But again, if you are at an event where social dancing is going on, then you should realize it's all about being social. If the venue has poor ventilation, then people are going to sweat.
Pro level dancers like to dance as much as the rest of us, and in a social dance setting, they want to dance!
Haven't you seen pro level dancers while teaching classes, competing, or judging? Even if the event has a causal atmosphere, when there is a call for professionalism, then it's received . . . even if they're wearing jeans and a t-shirt.
CollegiateShag.com
So my question would be; Why does it matter what qualifies them as a pro? If you go to an event and there are people teaching and there are people judging, those are the people you learn from and who judge your competition. Generally speaking, the people who are instructors and judges and headline national events are people who have proven themselves to the community as a whole either by competition, by performance, by competent instruction, or just by begin a bad-ass social dancer.
If you are looking for some sort of structure by which you compete, rise through the rankings, maybe have quantifiable levels of expertise, and come out of the top as a sanctioned and qualified professional/expert...well, you aren't going to find that in Lindy Hop. And the Lindy Community has resisted (and will hopefully continue to) every attempt to make it structured.
The opinion of the Lindy Hop community in the past has been that along with the regulations, the levels, the categories, the rankings, and such that is present in the Ballroom community (and to a lesser extent, the West Coast Swing community) comes codification of the dance and a slow bleeding of the vitality that people associate with the living and constantly changing dance of Lindy Hop. They don't see Ballroom dances, as danced by Dancesport, as having the same vitality, living and changing qualities that Lindy Hop does. There is too much regulation and ranking, too much concern about what is "correct" for the dances.
As seen by the rise of events like ULHS, ILHC and others, Lindy Hop has gone the opposite direction. The Lindy community prefers competitions with as few rules and regulations as possible. No one cares how many points you have. They only care if you can dance. The Lindy Hop judges are picked because they are viewed to be people who "know it when they see it". That way the comps are open to almost anything a dancer wants to throw down, as long as it is Lindy Hop, or works with Lindy Hop.
I can see why, if you were coming from a very structured competition format, the open-ness of the Lindy comps could be scary. You have no idea what you are being judged to, or maybe even what the judges are looking for...but that's the way Lindy Hoppers like it.
Someone earlier in this thread posted something to the extent of how the Lindy Hoppers needed to get with it (or something similar) in order to be on board for when Dancesport goes to the Olympics or something like that. With all due respect, I think that many Lindy Hoppers would consider that a backwards idea. Dancing a dance inside carefully contrived and controlled rules and circumstances designed so that something is easily judged correct or not correct may make a dance beautiful and easier to understand, but it will rob it of much of it s vitality and life over time, because it restricts where the dance can grow and how it can change and evolve. Keep the "sport" out of the dance.
I think that what often happens is that newcomers who come into Lindy Hop expecting to find something like the Ballroom world, or are of the opinion that having that kind of structure would be better than the haphazard craziness that is Lindy Hop, and they express that as if the Lindy Hoppers are somehow lacking or missing out on something, then yes, there is certainly backlash against that. But from the amount of people who come take Lindy lessons off the street in Lindy classes all over the country every week, I don t think that there is a bad attitude, in general, towards newcomers.
The problem is, at least in this thread, you seem to address your comments in a way that sounds like "You people dress like tramps and smell bad". This is not inclusive language. It comes across as the language of an outsider telling people in the lindy community how they must change their ways to become more attractive to outsiders.
You are entitled to your opinions ... but the community whose core consists of long-term regular dancers who frequently gather at local weekly events (where available) and national/regional events have the right to follow (or not follow) your recommendations as they see fit.
As to your confusion regarding how lindy competitions work ... the basic information is in several previous posts in this thread. If you need more info you can always talk to one of the competitors or judges at an event you attend and ask questions.
As to the cliquishness at regional/national events you implied in a recent post: We do try to be as welcoming to newcomers as possible. There is turnover in our community (mostly due to people moving away for work, moving away to be closer to extended family, or having kids that need babysitters whenever they go out). A major social understanding for experienced dancers is, "go out of your way to dance with newcomers to make them feel welcome". Without a welcoming attitude towards newcomers our community would die within two to three years at the most. As you can see, it hasn't so far.
At the same time, people who have been in the community for a while tend to gather in groups during these events to catch up with each other. If you only see certain people once or twice a year, you spend as much time with them as you can when the opportunity arises. Friends get to do that. To become a part of a circle of friends of this sort, just dance with a lot of people and introduce yourself. There is no application or "membership committee" approval involved. Not rocket science, just ordinary social networking.
....
As to attire:
The way a lot of the clothing you object to has appeared in the lindy social scene is that at intermediate and above workshops people have found it's best to dress the same way performance dancers dress during training and rehearsal. This translates into sweats or leotards or slacks/jeans with a t-shirt/sweat shirt. (The performance dancers attending these workshops started this trend. It was picked up by the rest of us at our first workshops because ... well it was obviously the best thing to do.)
This is necessary because these workshops involve vigorous physical activity at the level of a gym workout. In fact, some of these workshops begin with a round of stretching exercises and calisthenics.
At informal social dances, a lot of people dress the way they do when attending workshops ... especially those that push their physical limits and feel the need to change tops one or more times during the course of a typical evening. FWIW - At the social lindy dances I have attended over the past ten years, for the most part the people who tended to sweat while social dancing not only brought along spare tops but also tended to use deodorant.
More formal social dances (typically Saturday night dances at exchanges, competition weekends, or workshop weekends) usually are advertised as such by specifically recommending formal or semi-formal attire. For this sort of thing I generally wear a tux. Some of the ladies wear evening gowns. The less formally inclined men wear a suit and tie or slacks/shirt/tie or slacks/shirt/tie with non-matching jacket. The less formally inclined women wear a suitable non-formal dress or skirt/blouse combination.
Since the dress code for these dances is a recommendation, not a "rule", nobody is denied entry for dressing down - but the numbers of people who don't follow this recommendation are low. One time when ULHC had a dance like this at the Varsity theater a block or so from nearby parking ramp my son and I noticed with some amusement how much the parade of people walking from their cars looked like a crowd of people going to a senior prom!
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
I would gladly forego deodorant AND build my wardrobe from the leftovers of a "well picked through" thrift store sale; if that is what it would take to keep me from . . .
! DANCING LIKE I GOT A BOARD UP MY ASS !
I think the issue of dancer odor is completely separate. I see how it is remotely connected to the subject of professionalism. I'm certainly reading into a tangent about social dancers and cleanliness in general. I think its good that people ask these types of questions and "what defines a lindy pro". As a student who is eagar to learn quality lindy, I plan to spend a considerable amount of money in an effort to improve. People market themselves with pro titles, as Billy Bakelite stated earlier. He makes an excelent point. There are many issues about fairness that make this an important debate. In regards to professional titles, who grants them? Can a judge at a lindy hop event also teach during the same event for porfit? I see a major conflict there if this is allowed.
Lindy hop doesn't really have professional titles. Sure we have competitions that people put down on there dance resume where they may have placed first or whatever...but there aren't titles per se... At at lot of lindy hop workshop/compeition events the teachers are also the ones judging. This is a common thing, we have no problem with it, and see no conflict.
I may not live there anymore, but my dancing feet will always be from L.A.
Judges teach and compete at the same event all the time. Generally speaking if a pro dancer wins a title in Balboa at an event (for example), then the event organizer may ask them to come back next year and teach Balboa and judge the Balboa contest.
They may decline judging so they can compete if they choose.
Someone who judges one event, will probably compete in another event, even if they are or are not teaching at the event.
I don't see this as a conflict, it's just good business. Any respectable event organizer would want the best dancers to teach, judge, and compete at their event, because it would bring out more people and give more credit and status to the event.
CollegiateShag.com
The important point is there is no professional title/certification granting body like you might find in other professions, including ballroom dancing. Consider it recognition by informal community consensus. Just like many social norms are different in other countries or cultures, the criteria for a professional can differ between dance communities.
Perhaps it's not even appropriate to call Lindy Hop a profession then there would be no such thing as a Lindy Hop professional. Lindy Hop can still be an occupation or career path and even a primary occupation or career for those with other jobs, even if it's not a profession.
As for your own learning experience, try taking lessons with many different instructors. You'll find that there is a lot of variation and you mesh better with some instructors than others. You will recognize the good instructors, professionals from their ethos teaching and interactions with others in the context of Lindy Hop. I always encourage my students to take classes with as many different instructors as they can. I'd question the motives and ethos of instructors who discourage their students from learning from different instructors (from different studios if your dance community is structured that way).
Choosing a Lindy Hop teacher is like choosing what kind of ice cream you want from the local 31 flavors. You have your favorite flavors and I have mine and we can always sample the ones we haven't tried to expand our ice cream experience.
Video Examples... You want a video example of total and complete :sayno: :thumbdown: :bonk: Lindy Hop? Lookey Here [don't say you weren't warned] http://www.ehow.com/video_4974537_do-lindy-hop.html
You've got a "PROFESSIONAL" who is "Teaching". And what she is teaching is poor technique with incorrect history.
:crash: --R
y i no haz signature? Come on people, make with the funny.
Who is a Professional Lindy Hopper is done by proclamation:
The one wishing to be a Professional publicly proclaims themselves to be a Professional.
If they are not worthy of the title, they will be laughed at and ridiculed by their peers. But if worthy of the title...actually, they will still be laughed at and ridiculed by their peers for being so pompous as to make a public proclamation.
Zenin FTW.
I'd say the technique is not representative of community consensus or at the very least an insufficient example. The history is certainly incorrect and inconsistent with the documented and oral histories I'm familiar which would certainly lead me to question her teaching credentials.
Another thought is a common marketers trick of "expert" testimony. It reminds me of a recently aired television commercial for LCD televisions where an individual declares the televisions are better and he should know because he is an expert. The text sub-title indicates he is an astro-physicist. Certainly he is probably an expert on many things space but he is not an expert on televisions. One type of professional is not necessarily a Lindy Hop professional.
agh!!!! I am speechless... in addition to just sucking, that isn't even lindy hop. At all.
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
Right, because it's THE lindy hop, from THE charleston and THE jazz.
I think Ogden's post is right on. As a newbie, I don't think there is a bad attitude towards newcomers at all.
Actually I have a question about that specifically, I have heard a lot of ballroom dancers call it THE Lindy Hop..what's with adding "THE" on the beginning?
I may not live there anymore, but my dancing feet will always be from L.A.
it looked a little like 20s charleston, but I'm still missing the "6 count" part... If anyone has ever taken a class from her please forget it immediately. Thats even worse than the expert village videos on youtube.
I think she was attempting Charleston and calling it Lindy..but still doing both incorrectly.
Thats what I was figuring. But it still made me wanna barf a little :green:
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
Because it's also the Quickstep, the Merengue, the Paso Doble, etc.
Actually, I have no problem with someone who dances "the blues" "the collegiate shag" or "the charleston" or "the lindy hop" (or Charleston or Lindy hop or Lindy Hop ... as long as someone is consistent).
Damn, that's some petty sh!t to get uptight about.
How interesting. . .the same thing happened to me!! It was quite a bizarre conversation. . .I can say that I have since attended a couple of exchanges. . .and thankfully was not confronted with any weird sex parties!
The Lindy Hop has not been given proper credit in the Fred Astaire world that I am part of. I have seen a displayed Arthur Murray Lindy Hop syllabus that contains a written description of the dance. It did give credit to Frankie Manning.
I still think that from a consumer standpoint, there should be an official definition of a pro lindy instructor. This definition can vary, but it should be provided by any event hosting a competition. People market themselves based on titles they receive at these various ALHC type events. New students spend money based on the limited dance inforamtion available to them. I have yet to see a link posted for any rules governing a lindy hop event.
Because there aren't any governing rules...it's a mob scene...and obviously we are doing fine without it....
I may not live there anymore, but my dancing feet will always be from L.A.
It seems that you're not understanding that there is no governing body for Lindy Hop. Each competition will have its own rules - for example here are the rules for ALHC in 2005
And here are the rules for the upcoming North East Lindy Hop Championships.
Here are the rules for the International Lindy hop Championships.
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
I don't think you ever had anything to worry about - the "sex parties" are invitation only. i
That video was the worst example of teaching something you nothing about since Steven Mitchell taught "the waltz" at Beantown. I don't think there is any inherent reason why Ballroom pros can't be good Lindy Hop teachers. I thinks there's just not the tradition, & in their world not the competitive incentives. Paul Grecki at Sandra Cameron's is/was an excellent ballroom & Lindy Hop teacher. Ditto Joe Palmer at Dance Manhattan who is expert in both genres. Stepping Out Studios in NYC had/has several good ballroom/salsa teachers who are also good Lindy teachers. I think in NYC its probably easier to get cross pollination.
Zsa, if you go to the website of any event they usually have the rules and competition info posted. If you want to know what you're being judged on... good luck.
I have heard that talking to the judges prior to the competition is a good way to find out generally what they are looking for. However, this could easily be misleading since one judge may think x is a good thing, while another judge thinks x is a bad thing. mob scene.
Again, there is no definition of an official "pro." Hopefully there never will be... Marketing is marketing and it is up to you, the consumer, to figure out if an instructor is worth your time/money.
Page(s): < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Next > (283 items total)
BBCode is no longer supported. Use Markdown instead: