Quoted from "swingvillain"
I ve heard this time and time again of the years, There aren t many rules in Lindy hop BS. Lindy has plenty of rules. Also, Lindy is different than Ballroom well yes and no. 1) Lindy does have a different feel and a different focus. 2) I compel anyone to define the difference in a Lindy class and a Ballroom class. I also read that there is no Bronze level to Lindy Hop? I believe it is called beginner level or novice, you know when a class has a requirement of 6 months of Lindy experience yeah, that s the Lindy equivalent of Bronze. Even JOJ has an beginner route and an intermediate route. So what gives Redshoe? But that is not what this thread is about, nor is it about the slovenly dressed lindy hoppers that are Street Dressed who should never where dance pants on the street let alone a social function (I defy anyone to find pictures of anyone from the 30- 50 wearing dance pants or hot pink short shorts while lindy hopping or anyone going to a Street Salsa dance dressed in the same clothes that they wear to a lindy hop dance). This thread isn t even about the misconception that all ballroom dances are held in posh hotels where as they are held in community centers, lodges or even the very ballrooms that they rent out to swing dancers. No, this thread is about what defines a professional instructor from the opportunistic shady, poor of character persons posing as a teacher (a person of authority to whom trust is given if you will) that prey on the unknowing public. As Bill pointed out, The truth is no knowledgable Lindy Hopper is going to choose to take lessons from trumped up ballroom lindy champions over those who are rocking the house at actual Lindy Hop events... . I believe this is the root of the question being asked. How are no dancers to know the difference as evident by those hapless news anchors? There is no standard by which a Lindy Hop instructor is measured unlike Ballroom instructors, Engineers, Lawyers, Doctors, etc. so I don't see how anyone can claim or dispute ones professional status nor does claiming that one is a professional lindy hopper mean much. Over 90 of the "Professional Lindy Hop instructors" have no right to call themselves Professional and the 70 have not right to teach. I think all of us can think of instructors that have taught us things that we spent time and money undoing and relearning. I think it is an issue of ethics and as a community we should tell these imposters to either get off there ego trip and learn how to teach or stop the damage they do to swing dancing every day for the sake making themselves feel improtant. I've seen plenty of people teach the ! they were taught in 2001 who don't even dance like that anymore but only know how to parrot back the way they were taught off some 3rd generation VHS they got a bootleg after they first got into swing. Shame on those people. Shame.

Two questions:

• You have been a member for 6 years. Why do you only have 3 posts?

• what is JOJ?

Hi all, this is my first post (other than the welcome wagon) so first of all I'd like to say thanks for all the great discussion I've been reading for the last few months!!

Now, on to the topic. I'm a relatively new dancer so this thread is quite applicable to me. I think that, largely, other people's motives can be thrown on to newbies and they can (at times) be used as vehicles to promote the goals of others.

What do I like about Lindy Hop ?? I like that I have the freedom to dress up a few basic fundamentals however I want. Essentially, the only three rules are - don't hurt anyone, dance to dance (no creepy motives) and have fun! At the end of the day, as long of none of these rules are broken I think the dance partnership has been successful. If the follow does not like the way I dance outside of these things, then that is just her personal choice... she can choose not to dance with me in the future that's her prerogative.

I think this applies in exactly the same way to instructor selection. Even in my local area I can see different "styles" of instructor (personally I think this kind of diversity in a scene is awesome). I think all of them are amazing in what they can do, but there are some which are just not my cup of tea. The choice is simple; I go to the instructor I like stylistically, learn from them and ask them which internationals inspire them.

There is the argument that some newbies (the first few months of their dance lives) don't know what is good and bad, right and wrong. In my opinion, the criteria is simply the dance rules and anyone can tell if something is painful, creepy or not fun. What I mean is, at that stage, if people are enjoying themselves and are going to stay in the scene, we've won! Those that are really keen to commit to developing their own "style" will (over time) go to exchanges, watch clips and look at advanced dancers on the social dance floor enough to learn what they like and dislike.

So after all that:

1. I don't think there should be a set definition for any of the swing dances or a set of markers which need to be achieved before progression. The freedom of these dances are what makes them fun! If you want to establish a rule list it should be "Don't hurt, don't be creepy and have fun". Really, though this is already policed in our community. Anything beyond that is a stylistic choice of the individual. That's the beauty of our dance/ culture... it is based on a fundamental freedom!

2. There should be no guidelines for "Professional Instructors". Let me choose what I think is cool. Keep the diversity. Let me select a throwout from person A and the footwork from person B. More importantly, let me work through a lesson with an instructor who has a fundamental different Lindy hop style to what I've been taught, I may not take on that style... but I can guarantee I'll learn something!

Sorry for the length... I'm a rambler sometimes.

:-D

Also insert Bal, Charleston, Shag etc.

I think a lot of folks are missing the whole point here. The point of lindy hop, that is.

Trying to define lindy hop, or even so called 'professional lindy hop', is a lot like trying to define love. Its pointless. People have been trying to define love for thousands of years, with no real success or definition. Yet it exists, and people who have really experienced it know what it is and know that there is no point of trying to define it, because it is meant to be experienced, not defined and broken down. Those who don't, think they do and make up silly definitions.

So all y'all who care about the definition of lindy hop or the definition of a professional lindy hopper need to go out and dance. Go out of your town/city/region, dance with as many people as possible, as many places as possible, to a wide variety of good music, and then get back to us in a year or two and tell us if you still want to quibble over definitions that don't really mean anything.

Oh yeah... and Lindy ain't ballroom. Trying to compare the two is kind of like trying to compare opera to rap.

Quoted from "Oli"

Quoted from "Maisie"
Well maybe it is time to revisit the old thread about the cost of lindy hop private lessons. The going rate for a lindy hop private lesson? Are they cheap?

You already know the answer to this question. So why did you ask it?

There is always more to learn.

Maisie, if I wanted to continue ballroom lessons, how would I know a Ballroom Professional? Because they say they are? And how many really good ballroom classes are pay-as-you-go?

You seem to have a major grudge against lindy, a personal smear campaign underway - and when one closely reads what you have written it turns out that either "friends" of yours have had a bad experience here or there, or you have had a bad experience here or there. C'est la vie - right? I can't imagine in all your years of ballroom dancing that you haven't had a bad experience. I'm trying to understand why you have this vendetta against lindy as a dance, and lindyhoppers in general. I can't quite figure out if in some roundabout way, you're trying to ingratiate yourself towards this community to be part of it, or if you're trying to put people off it. :dunno:

Quoted from "OpeningMinds"
Maisie, if I wanted to continue ballroom lessons, how would I know a Ballroom Professional?

Opening Minds you ask very good questions. And I am still thinking about how I would personally answer. But here is some information to start with. And this is from only one perspective. It is certainly not being provided as advice or suggestion.

For the purpose of this thread I asked for help. And a a few ballroom Yehoodites messaged me about this clip. From the NDCA rule book.

RULE II.A.1.

PROFESSIONAL: A Professional Dancer is one who is any or all of the following (anyone studying for or taking a theory exam will not be deemed a professional unless they declare themselves such as defined below):

a. Registered as a Professional with the NDCA.

b. A Staff Member employed by a Dance Studio to teach.

c. One who partners a Pro/Am Student Dancer or Registered Amateur in Pro/Am Competitions.

d. Any person who declares himself or herself a Professional by word or deed (Examples: serving as a hired Partner, or participating in Professional Competitions or Team Matches).

RULE II.A.2.

AMATEUR: An Amateur is one for whom dancing is strictly an avocation, a recreational activity, or a competitive sport. An amateur dancer may become a professional in the following manner:

(1) By the declaration of such

(2) By competing against other professionals in an NDCA sanctioned Open Professional or Rising Star event

(3) By acting as a professional partner in an NDCA sanctioned Pro/Amateur competition event

b. Pre-Teen, Junior, Youth and Adult Amateur dancers must be registered with the NDCA, unless they are participating only in pro/am events.

(1) NOTE: With the exception of honor dances and formation teams, amateurs are not permitted to demonstrate at NDCA events.

RULE II.A.4.

STUDENT/STUDENT: The term "Student/Student" refers to a Pro/Am Student Dancer partnering another Pro/Am Student Dancer in heats which are danced simultaneously with Pro/Am events at NDCA sanctioned competitions and championships.

a. Student/Student events are an accommodation for Pro/Am Student Dancers, and are open only to one adult Pro/Am Student Dancer partnering with another adult Pro/Am Student Dancer - both of whom must comply with the requirements as stated in the definition of a Pro/Am Student Dancer. Student/Student events are not open to amateur dancers who compete in Amateur Competitions and/or Championships at the "Open Amateur" proficiency level as defined in section X. RULES FOR AMATEUR COMPETITORS.

RULE II.B.4.

STUDENT/STUDENT & PRO/AM STUDENT DANCER EVENTS FOR PRE-TEEN, JUNIOR AND YOUTH

a. When Pre-Teen, Junior and Youth events are offered for Student/Student and/or Pro/Am Student Dancers the age divisions must be those that are listed in the "Rules for Amateur Competitions" section.

b. When Pre-Teen, Junior and Youth events are offered for Student/Student and/or Pro/Am Student Dancers the dress and/or costuming rules must be those that are listed in the "Rules for Amateur Competitions" section.

c. When Pre-Teen events are offered for Student/Student and/or Pro/Am Student Dancers the syllabus rules must be those that are listed in the "Rules for Amateur Competitions" section.

Quoted from "Maisie"

Quoted from "OpeningMinds"
Maisie, if I wanted to continue ballroom lessons, how would I know a Ballroom Professional?

Opening Minds you ask very good questions. And I am still thinking about how I would personally answer. But here is some information to start with. And this is from only one perspective. It is certainly not being provided as advice or suggestion. For the purpose of this thread I asked for help. And a a few ballroom Yehoodites messaged me about this clip. From the NDCA rule book.

Hahaha, awesome.

NDCA has quantified exactly how impossible it is to quantify what is or is not a professional. Maybe Ballroom really isn't that much different from Swing after all.

[quote="OpeningMinds"]

Quoted from "Toon Town Dave"

Quoted from "swingvillain"
...Also, I think most people confuse "style" & techneque - ask Yuval.(praise be to Yuval) or really any good dancer that can see the body mechanics of lindy or any dance for that matter follow basic principles & that it is music that dictates the rest. I have heard too many dancer use it's my style to explain poor techneque...quote] Uh, I'm now confused. Are you trying to say that if we're not all dancing exactly the same, then our technique is bad? If so, then I wish my technique were as bad as Skye, Peter, Andy, Ryan, Steven, all the Hot Shots, ... I can't believe Yuval or any Lindy Hop instructor worth learning from would make that sort of suggestion...

Dave, I think you're misinterpreting what was said ... I bolded it to perhaps add some clarity. As a follow who's danced with almost all of those you named, I can confirm that all of those you listed in your example (as well as Nick, Marty, Bill, Todd, and a bunch of others) follow exactly the same basic body mechanics principals. But their interpretation of the music is completely different. There is no "muddiness", trying to interpret their lead, no forcefulness - just sweet perfection.

Thank you OpeningMinds, that is what I was trying to say

Fiddletree, if dance is not meant to be broken down but experienced then why do we spend hours pouring over old video clips or go to lessons to learn more? I understand what you are trying to say that we all love to dance and this love is very personal and different to each one of us and I would never say that there is only one correct way to dance.

I also think you are right that there are similarities in professional Lindy Hop instructors and Love When it s good it s the best ever. When it s bad you wish you could stop anyone else from experiencing what you just did.

There seems to be the assumption that a strong ballroom background is of no, little, even of negative value in mastering Lindy. This seems to extend even to champion ballroom & Latin dancers. But persumably doesn't extend to Balboa dancers & blues dancers, & perhaps not to tango, shag, or WCS dancers. Of course, ballroom is different than Lindy. And the ballroom world's greatest failure is the codification of that disaster Jive. But I think any strong partner dance, modern or jazz background is a prretty big plus. It is even possible that accomplished people in different genres know things. Nathalie Gomez significantly advanced Lindy aerials. She was able to do this because she had mastered acrobatic rock & roll dancing, was a great dancer, & learned Lindy Hop.

By rule II.A.1.a. of the NCDA, I declare myself a ballroom dancing professional.

Quoted from "Toon Town Dave"
By rule II.A.1.a. of the NCDA, I declare myself a ballroom dancing professional.

You are now cleared to dance in spandex.

Quoted from "Brooksie"

Quoted from "Maisie"
Pro's (especially ones who are by decalration with their marketing), are always very friendly and approcahable because they are seeking business.

Does anyone else think this is garbage? Sweeping generalization that no Pros are friendly by their own volition. I'm sure everyone here has met many friendly Pros because they are good people, and not because they are just trying to make money.

I'm not going to say it's garbage, but I will say that making a generalization that pros are friendly for business is flawed. Since a pro's social life and business life intertwine, I could see how Masie could arrive at such a perspective. Though, it's been my experience that a majority of rockstars, pros, etc. are great people and put on no front for business advancement. I suppose there will always be exceptions though.

Quoted from "OpeningMinds"
You seem to have a major grudge against lindy, a personal smear campaign underway

I do feel badly for people who fall victim and prey to dance schemes, contracts and crazy marketing scams. And I certainly do not have a grudge against the lindy. I certainly have no smear campaign underway. I have no grudge against any specific professional dancer or studio. I think it is important to discuss the ways we define a dance professional and the process or lack of one.

Quoted from "Maisie"

Quoted from "OpeningMinds"
You seem to have a major grudge against lindy, a personal smear campaign underway

I do feel badly for people who fall victim and prey to dance schemes, contracts and crazy marketing scams. And I certainly do not have a grudge against the lindy. I certainly have no smear campaign underway. I have no grudge against any specific professional dancer or studio. I think it is important to discuss the ways we define a dance professional and the process or lack of one.

Really? Really!? You're just trying to protect us poor ignorant Yehoodites from the dancers of contract studios trying to teach us "the lindy?" REALLY?

Again, I have never heard of someone in the scene trying to run a contract scheme. The only contract lindy lessons I am personally aware of are the beginner lessons where if you attend all the lessons, we give you all your money back and the lessons are completely free. What a dangerous scam! The public must be warned!