I work in an industry that has seen quite a few people get degrees and jump in singularly because of the incentive of high salaries, and not because they actually had any talent or interest in the field. This actually includes the vast majority of people who actually hold degrees in the field.

They are useless, all of them. Scratch that, they are worse then useless; The companies they work for would be better off if they just never showed up in the office. Negative productivity, their existence is nothing but a road block to those actually trying to get good work done. It's bad enough that having a degree in the field is a red flag that they are probably just in it for the money and can't actually do the job.

Why that matters:

When I think about doctors' salaries I can't help but believe it's not much different. That we'd be better off if we didn't offer such high monetary incentives (which attract bad future doctors), and made the monetary barrier to entry lower. We'd end up with most anyone that had a real talent or interest in the field of medicine a way in, while those just in it for the money would naturally seek employment elsewhere. Better doctors on average, for far less cost.

Oh wait...that's exactly what a great many other countries do...who have better care at half the price then the US "money is everything" system.

Q: What do you call a medical student who finishes last in their class? A: Doctor

Just how does US Healthcare rank?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704130904574644230678102274.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEFTTopOpinion

http://papers.nber.org/papers/w15213

Infant mortality

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/11/dems_exploit_infant_deaths_to.html

CBO estimates

The CBO only answers the questions that it was asked. If you don't understand what it was asked, the answer is meaningless:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/opinion/21holtz-eakin.html

I assume that Chiv can't refute the analysis; so, he simply dismisses it.

Doctors' incomes

How would you feel if MDs got to decide how much you were able to earn or whether your occupation was worthwhile to society?

Preventative Care

There is no evidence that preventative care lower costs, and it can raise them significantly. [For example, there are some people who think that virtually all men over 40 should be on cholesterol lowering drugs. Do you 20 somethings want to pay for another boomer entitlement?]

There is evidence that lifestyle changes (exercise, losing weight, quit smoking, etc) do improve health.

Captain Morgan

I don't want healthcare to be equal and fair. It is impossible to have anything in this country be equal or fair, if for no other reason, Congress will make certain that its members are more equal than others. Cuba and North Korea are countries with healthcare systems that are equal for most of the population. I don't look at those countries as models for the US.

Just an example of what happens when you lived in a country with an 'equal and fair' health care system.

This morning I went to the doctor. There was zero wait, the doc was fantastic and thorough, I got everything I needed taken care of, I didn't have to fill out any paperwork (because everyone in Italy gets a healthcare card that has your info on it when it is scanned), and I didn't have to pay anything. Nor do I have to deal with any insurance companies. And I don't have to pay anything for my prescriptions, which usually cost me hundreds of dollars every month in the US.

After that, I went to the hospital where I will be starting my job next week in radiation medicine, and saw the new facilities. They are fantastic, extremely modern, and have the best cancer-treating equipment money can buy, as well as a fantastic team of doctors, physicists, and technicians. And guess what? If you get cancer and you live here, you get treated for free! With very little wait!

I'm all for the 'fair and equal' healthcare system. Living here, using the system, and (soon to be) working in it has shown me how truly awesome it is and how well it works. It leads to fewer sick and fewer dead people.

totally agree. If more people could walk into a doctor's office without waiting, filling out forms, and paying, then I bet they'd go see someone when symptoms start. Prevention and catching things early is the key. The US sucks at both, in general.

I've met alot of medical students while working here at a major medical school.

Many of them are not in it to get rich, in fact for several years, especially with the impact of HMO's, salary expectations have changed for many.

There is however little incentive given for people to go into general practice where incomes are very low compared to people in law and financial sectors.

And the bill when you finish medical school here is in excess of 200k. Thats a huge debt burden if you are not from a wealthy family.

Then again it isn't hard to find those that are really expecting to be well off when their training is all done.

And yes, the school operates on pass/fail. But they still have to pass national board exams.

I do think you will find doctors/md students who go into the field because they want to be in the helping profession.

I think in financial services, most people are in it to get money, and its all about money. Its not a fair comparison.

Better to compare investment services with insurance services...as its the insurance companies that shaped health care delivery as it is. They are making decisions about payments and rates.

Unless somehow my life goes to hell, which I don't see happening (but who knows), I don't plan on returning to the U.S. to live. And I am definitely getting good travel insurance for when I visit! I am so very accident prone, so I know how worth it insurance is in the US.

I will visit the US once or twice a year, but with the rate Americans (lindy hoppers! yay! 7 within one week of each other!) are visiting me lately I don't feel much a need to go back to my homeland, as it is coming to me!

But I am actually keeping my blue cross insurance in the US for the next year anyways, as a 'just in case' while I settle in over here.

In contrast, a couple of weeks ago I bumped my head into a shower partition and stepped out with a lovely inch long gash on my forehead early on a Saturday morning in downtown Philadelphia.

Might need stiches, but the wound is above my heart so not bleeding too badly. [bleep!], where to go? Not being from Philadelphia doesn't help. Found a CVS pharmacy yeah, they wear wear white coats behind the counter, they'll know which way to point me. Pharmacist tries to look up in the phone book the address of a local clinic "but they could be closed it being a Saturday" she says. After navigating around for some minutes - it was a beautiful day thankfully - I find said clinic, closed. Emergency room here we come!

This is the fun part. I'm asked upon arriving at the Emergency roooom to remove all metal objects from my person, put them to the side and step through the metal detector. First question: what's your social security number, followed by the usual, name, DOB, age, etc. I am now well on my way into the 'triage' part of my journey which consists of an indifferent intern taking my pulse and asking me if I can remember when I last had a tetanus shot. I'm asked to take seat. It's off peak, looks like it will be a short wait.

No one has told me the meter has been running in the back ground ever since I entered 'triage'. So now it's time for 'Check in'. Yeah. Like I'm in some kind of [bleep!]ing hotel. That's because I'm here to get the kind of care I need. I'm gonna get checked.

I get checked alright. Imagine all the information a skip tracer would like to have so that their dunning process would be made easier and you can get the idea of how my interview went during 'check in'. So I get the drift and I stop the apathetic girl asking all the stoopid questions and get down to it, "just curious, how much is this going to cost if it turns out I really do need a stich or two?" $835.00

Mustering all the self control that is left in me, I politely ask that we stop the conversation and that I'd like to be on my way then. I still had to pony up $90 for 'triage'.

wow, sucks. Luckily(?), every time I've been to the ER in the US I've been in bad enough shape to be able to skip all of that crap before treatment, but then again there were always the thousands in bills afterward.

This story you told is a very good example of why we need health care reform! I hope you eventually got your cut taken care of?

In Italy it would cost nothing.

Actually, in most (if not all) of Europe it would cost nothing (or close to it), even if you don't have EU citizenship. Having been transported by ambulance, hospitalized, and also treated as an outpatient in more European countries than I'd care to count before I had residency in Europe, I know that. In fact, I've only had to pay anything twice. Once I had to pay a total of 50 euros for ER visit + 3 nights in a hospital in Ireland, and another time I had to pay something like $100 for an hour+ ambulance ride, ER visit, and CT scans in Sweden (that was for the CT, otherwise it would have been free).

Oh, and I think once I had to pay 3 euros for some medication.

However, people have to keep something in mind. The US spends a lot more money on war and military operations in general than most/all countries with great universal health care. The US taxpayes also pay less in taxes. I think I am getting taxed something like 55% here. So before you are envious of countries with great free/cheap health care, realize how much the taxpaying citizens are paying for it out of their paychecks, and consider if you would be willing to double (approximately) what you are currently paying in taxes. Along with higher taxes (up to 20%) on nearly all purchases you make, and sky high gas prices, among other things. I obviously am down with the system here (for the most part), but not everyone would be.

It is a trade-off. You can't pay the level of taxes you do in the US and also get the same quality of care for the same price as a country that is taxed to a much higher extent.

To answer you question for Canada (Saskatchean), $0 direct cost and no stress over health insurance documentation. Same thing for something more involved like a majorly fractured, dislocated metacarpal, surgery to put everything back where it belongs, follow-up with the surgeon, a few months of occupational therapy and a visit to a dermatologist to deal with a reaction to the antibiotics.

Like fiddletree said, even though there is not direct cost, we still pay for the service via taxes. Tax rates comparable to the U.S. for lower income earners (under $40K/year income) but ramp up quickly over that. Here are the 2010 personal income tax rates. Health Care is a huge proportion of government spending.

The quality of care in Canada and the U.S. is comparable on average and both countries have similar problems finding personnel. The U.S. is different because the wealthy can buy priority. That makes the U.S. system better for people who can afford better service. It's infinitely better for anyone who never needs health care since minimal tax dollars contribute to health care. It sucks for everyone else.

Also the U.S. system there is some amount of money siphoned from the system to pay shareholders of the health care providers and insurance companies. That situation doesn't exist in a public run system.