What does being "the perfect woman" mean to you? I am dressing up as The Perfect Woman for Halloween this year - curious what "The Perfect Woman" means to you... I'll be wearing a business suit, with a baby on each hip, and lingerie and stilettos, and an apron - since The…
Originally posted Friday, October 30, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "mouth"
Quoted from "r_c_s"
Quoted from "mouth" It's everywhere. And it really frakking hard to push it all aside and constantly believe you're ok the way you are making the choices that make sense for you. Really frakking hard...
And in your case -- you don't have children, right? That's one of the hardest things for many people to understand. They think, how could anyone really not want children? So you've sympathy to deal with, and when someone offers sympathy for something you feel is fine, or someone insists that you're kidding yourself if you're fine with it, it's a judgement that your feelings are wrong. Having someone unable to believe that you feel the way you do, is just one of the hardest things to take.
Sympathy, condescension, assumption, judgment, questioning - I work in fundraising and was speaking to a donor (a successful corporate woman) who was relating some crazy story about her children. She casually commented something like, "You'll see what I mean when you have kids." In a non-work environment I might've made a joke about how great it is that I don't want kids and so won't have to go through that craziness. But in this context, I had to keep my mouth shut and say something like, "of course!". I knew there was a possibility she would have a negative reaction to my not wanting children. And I need to keep her happy and trusting me because I have to keep asking her for money. Isn't that sad?
IMHO, your personal decisions involving your body have absolutely NOTHING to do with a total stranger - why would you want to share that information with them anyway? If she asked "how are you today" and you'd just broken up with your boyfriend, screamed at your mother, and were dealing with a bad period, would you tell her? No - because you're a professional and because she's a stranger and a client, you'd simply say "I'm doing great - how are you" because that's what you do in business ... and life would go on. You wouldn't think it's "sad" because you couldn't tell her the truth about your life - and in fact, if you were the one who asked "how are you" and she went into a dialogue about her personal intimate life, you might think "whoa - TMI - I'm not your therapist" or something similar.
"Our minds can shape the way a thing will be because we act according to our expectations." - Federico Fellini
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Originally posted Friday, October 30, 2009 (2 years ago)
OM, that's not an equal comparison. She didn't ask, "how are you?" She engaged me in personal conversation, first of all. And in that personal conversation she ASSUMED that of course I would be having kids and will totally feel exactly the same way she does about them and will make exactly the same life choices she made because that is "the norm".
"The norm" is for people to want and have kids. If you don't want to, there's something wrong with you.
First, she shouldn't be making those assumptions.
But society tells her that's what a woman should want so she does.
Second, I should feel completely comfortable, since we're sharing personal stories and thoughts, saying I wouldn't make the same choices she made. But I can't, because society thinks my choices are bad/weird ones. So that would paint me in a negative light to her.
You seem to be missing the point here.
I'm not having a general conversation about whether it's proper to have personal conversations in work environments. In my business it's important to make friends and draw people in personally. So we do that constantly. But we can't show them our flaws. And in this case, what I can't show her isn't my flaw, it's society's.
Originally posted Friday, October 30, 2009 (2 years ago)
And one more thing - it's very telling that you compared my decision to not have children with these: "you'd just broken up with your boyfriend, screamed at your mother, and were dealing with a bad period". These are all negative things. So even you are equating my choice - although you have no idea what my thoughts/reasons are - to several awful things in life.
Originally posted Friday, October 30, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "mouth"
It's everywhere. And it really frakking hard to push it all aside and constantly believe you're ok the way you are making the choices that make sense for you. Really frakking hard.
So while I appreciate what you all are saying about how it's about personal acceptance and quieting the voices outside you and believing in your self-worth, let's not just write that as though you can wake up one morning and make a decision and then be honky-dory for the rest of your life.
Because we're slammed with messages contradictory to personal acceptance multiple times a day, it takes constant re-evaluation, constant reassurance, constant inner pep talks, etc. to keep feeling like you're really ok NOT being all things to all people.
I just want to make sure we all recognize that and remember that. Since I know I'm a pretty together chick and I still struggle with it all the time. So whether they tell me so or not, I'm sure all my sisters are as well.
Amen Mouth - I hear ya sister - and I'm standing with ya! (although I agree with Zeno as well that certainly in an ideal world (I try to live there!) we would all have total inner peace, love ourselves completely, and let go of what anyone thinks of us). Yet it's not a "perfect" world...
Thanks for the HuffPo article as well - I saw a Maureen Dowd piece a while back that I think referenced that (same topic).
It is definitely tough to be a woman in modern society with SO many choices (good problem to have in some ways too right? I recognize that). And with so many voices, media, etc. telling us we need to be - thinner, prettier, younger, smarter, richer, whatever... pick your superlative!
Beauty is such a big one as well. I don't think the pressure ever really lets up on woman to look sexy, beautiful, in shape, airbrushed even, no matter what else is happening in their lives (whether a mom, a career-woman, neither or both of these).
Successful men (as defined by society - those who have power, money, fame) don't have to be good looking to land trophy mates. Men can be older, fat, balding - and rich - and still land a young beautiful wife.
Now, this may say something about that woman as well. Is it a need for security or glamour that drives such a match? And perhaps there are cases like the above where it really is true love (who am I to judge???). Just sayin', it's something that I have always felt is "expected" of me - look good, no matter what you're up to. I don't feel that there is quite the same pressure on men.
Of course I want to be healthy, happy, feel good and I make my choices accordingly - I'm a vegetarian, I work out often, I don't smoke and rarely drink alcohol. I meditate daily. I keep healthy practices that keep me looking good (which is a bonus!).
I just would love to raise my (potential, future! ;) daughters to know that their worth is not just about their looks - that they can be what they want to be in this world and not bend to society's expectations - that what matters most is that they find happiness for themselves, be good loving people, etc. Enjoy this life.
I am going to do my best (doing so now!) to live that example.
Originally posted Friday, October 30, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "zeno" A perfect woman understands that Ayn Rand was a popular success but failed in literary and philosophical impact.
We're trying to save RedHOtNBluE some reading time.
Zeno you crack me up.
I do appreciate what you are saying about women being comfortable in their own skin, how that is what "the perfect woman is."
Lord knows I've spent thousands on yoga, meditation, life coaches, you name it! in the past several years in the name of inner peace. I'm actually a very happy, healthy, peaceful woman now. I do love who I am and love my life. Am blessed.
And yet it's hard to totally shake all the pressure of societal expectations completely. Perhaps that'll simply continue to get easier with time.
Originally posted Friday, October 30, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "mouth"
We live in a world where not being perfect has consequences you will feel gravely and daily. And I think it would take a truly overwhelming societal change to turn that corner.
What do you think might precipitate this change?
Seriously, I want my life to be partly ABOUT this... I do hope that the essays, articles, books etc. I write will contribute to this discussion and to transforming the future for women... That's a life goal for me.
How can we be part of a collective movement that will create a different world for our daughters and granddaughters someday (should we have any! or, the daughters of our colleagues and friends...)
Originally posted Friday, October 30, 2009 (2 years ago)
One last thought: I do think part of what we can do to help precipitate positive change is to SPEAK OUR TRUTH. Stop being afraid to speak out about what we experience as women in this world, or pretending that everything is "perfect" when it isn't.
That's part of why I'm writing my book, and telling my story. As a woman who has experienced sexual trauma (been raped, been stalked) I have a story to tell both of pain and healing that I think can help other women. Doesn't mean it's easy to tell. It's hard as hell.
Originally posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "REDHOTnBLUE"
... in an ideal world (I try to live there!) we would all have total inner peace, love ourselves completely, and let go of what anyone thinks of us).
Part of the reason we can't just let go of what other people think, is that we need to consider what other people think, to check our own judgment. I can't always be right, and in if everyone else disagrees with me, it may be because I'm wrong.
And also... we learn things from listening to what others think. We all have parents, teachers, mentors, advisers, and/or friends whose opinion matters to us. It's not always easy to figure out when to trust our own judgment over someone else's.
Quote Beauty is such a big one as well. I don't think the pressure ever really lets up on woman to look sexy, beautiful, in shape, airbrushed even, no matter what else is happening in their lives (whether a mom, a career-woman, neither or both of these).
My first reaction is to say that really isn't an issue for me. And it certainly is true that I don't feel the need to look sexy, etc, all the time. But the truth is, when I'm going into a situation where I need a little boost in self confidence, I style my hair, put on make-up, and stuff my bra. Every time. (It used to be I'd wear a skirt, nylons, and heels, too... but those days are long gone.)
Originally posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "REDHOTnBLUE"
Quoted from "mouth"
We live in a world where not being perfect has consequences you will feel gravely and daily. And I think it would take a truly overwhelming societal change to turn that corner.
What do you think might precipitate this change?
Seriously, I want my life to be partly ABOUT this... I do hope that the essays, articles, books etc. I write will contribute to this discussion and to transforming the future for women... That's a life goal for me.
How can we be part of a collective movement that will create a different world for our daughters and granddaughters someday (should we have any! or, the daughters of our colleagues and friends...)
I'm not sure you can change things for women without changing men in the process. I have no idea how that would work.
Originally posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "REDHOTnBLUE"
Quoted from "mouth"
We live in a world where not being perfect has consequences you will feel gravely and daily. And I think it would take a truly overwhelming societal change to turn that corner.
What do you think might precipitate this change?
I'm not mouth, obviously, but I have some ideas about this. I think a lot of it is about having something to prove... just like black men often feel they need to be more/better than a white man doing the same thing, just to get a reasonable degree of respect. (And it's not that they just feel that way, they really often do need to do more.) I think we need more good role models, and just more time to get used to how things have changed, in order to be comfortable. The expectations and realities for women have changed a lot in my life time.
When I first entered the professional work world, it was taken as a given that you'd wear a skirted suit with nylons and heels to look professional. Unless you were going for a very artistic profession, you wouldn't think of wearing pants to a job interview. And even then, it might be risky. I know that was already changing, but even a few years ago, there were people who felt skirts were necessary to really look professional. Then Hillary Clinton became a senator, and made a seriously competitive run for president of the United States wearing pants the whole time. Her pants suits were all over the news, too, and just a bit controversial. Now I dare anyone to claim it's not professional to wear pants.
It sounds like a small thing, but to me it's not that small. She wore clothes that weren't sexy, and demanded to be taken seriously for her work/ideas/etc. I love her for the pants suits.
Originally posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "r_c_s" Then Hillary Clinton became a senator, and made a seriously competitive run for president of the United States wearing pants the whole time. Her pants suits were all over the news, too, and just a bit controversial. Now I dare anyone to claim it's not professional to wear pants.
If that phone call comes at 4:00 am, it's a lot faster to just put on a pair of pants.
Originally posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "mouth" And one more thing - it's very telling that you compared my decision to not have children with these: "you'd just broken up with your boyfriend, screamed at your mother, and were dealing with a bad period". These are all negative things. So even you are equating my choice - although you have no idea what my thoughts/reasons are - to several awful things in life.
Interesting. And thanks for proving my point. :)
My apologies - I don't see those comparisons as negative: they're simply private moments in life. I was trying to compare your choice of having (or not having) children to other things in life that you wouldn't discuss with someone who wasn't in your circle of friends - I assumed those things to be personal. As is your choice of having, or not having, children.
There is a possibility that your client didn't assume you wanted to have children - she simply stated a phrase which society has schooled her to be a reasonable thing to say. There's a possibility that she's in the same trap many of us find ourselves in : she may simply be trying to say the politically correct thing - it may not be her belief at all.
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Originally posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Phlurg"
Quoted from "REDHOTnBLUE"
Quoted from "mouth"
We live in a world where not being perfect has consequences you will feel gravely and daily. And I think it would take a truly overwhelming societal change to turn that corner.
What do you think might precipitate this change?
Seriously, I want my life to be partly ABOUT this... I do hope that the essays, articles, books etc. I write will contribute to this discussion and to transforming the future for women... That's a life goal for me.
How can we be part of a collective movement that will create a different world for our daughters and granddaughters someday (should we have any! or, the daughters of our colleagues and friends...)
I'm not sure you can change things for women without changing men in the process. I have no idea how that would work.
Interesting point Phlurg... I do think there are more and more "enlightened" men (and women!) in today's society who believe in true equality and want to be true partners in a relationship etc... I know lots of amazing men who ARE wonderful partners to their girlfriends/wives/boyfriends/husbands and who see the worth in intelligent, creative women, successful women, who aren't just interested in beauty or a woman's ability to pop out babies or whatever. Lots of incredible men out there...
That said, old and out-dated and damaging attitudes still prevail both for men and women... I've certainly had to work hard to shake them. Still practicing this - i.e. just being me, living MY best life and not needing the approval of others. (I'm pretty damn good at this now but it doesn't mean I don't judge myself against the yardstick of what I think is "expected" of me sometimes).
Of course that means that sometimes I project my judgments of myself onto the world (we all do this sometimes, I think) and assume that others are judging me - when maybe they are, maybe they are (and really, who cares?).
I think it can be a lifelong journey - finding true inner peace and contentment, just happily being ourselves in the world.
In the meantime would still love to participate in shifting the paradigm further for the girls and women of the future... and do agree that that will likely involve reshaping men's attitudes, as well as women.
Any other men have opinions on this? What could this look like? How do we open up a dialogue so that more men shift their attitudes toward women - which will shape their sons attitudes towards women, and change the future...
Originally posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "REDHOTnBLUE" One last thought: I do think part of what we can do to help precipitate positive change is to SPEAK OUR TRUTH. Stop being afraid to speak out about what we experience as women in this world, or pretending that everything is "perfect" when it isn't...
I agree with you. However, I believe it's important to be very clear about what IS actually happening, and what one PERCEIVES to be happening. And to take responsibility for your contributions to whatever's going on. It's all well and good to make assumptions of what someone MAY think about how you look, behave, and the lifestyle choices that you have made, but until you actually have real feedback from them (comments, actions), you may be wrong. And one's prejudice based on their own flawed expectations of another's reaction can be harmful to themselves and to society.
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Originally posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Phlurg" I'm not sure you can change things for women without changing men in the process. I have no idea how that would work.
I think men have changed a lot, when you look back through the years. And, as with women, it's a process of education. And that takes time.
Some things are just never going to change for either of us ... for example, good looks attract. How many women swoon over Mike Myers or Willem Dafoe rather than Brad Pitt of George Clooney? If money was no object, would you go with the ugly car, or the pretty one? And society has certain rules - rarely companies like law firms allow you to wear jeans in the office, so, for example, going to a job interview wearing jeans and, surprise, not getting the job, has nothing to do with the fact that you're a woman.
Times have certainly changed regarding dress - when I first visited New York almost 20 years ago, it seemed that almost every working woman that I saw on the street wore a conservative skirt, nylons and trainers and carried a tote bag which I assumed to contain "pretty" shoes. Rarely do I see this now. Pants and flats are a very common sight. And nylon-less legs seem the norm in summer. Men are often required to wear a suit and tie in certain circumstances, which I believe can be uncomfortable - it's only reasonable that women are expected to be uncomfortable at times too with the clothing required of them.
It is great that society has changed to encourage women to work as well as have children, but the USA is seriously lagging in how they make that doable for women, compared with other western countries. We have the least maternity leave, and very few companies have day-care facilities, etc. To make changes in this area, and others like it, we need more female representatives making the rules for us.
An area that I'd really like to see change is manners - seems there's a dearth in the little things like saying thanks when someone holds the elevator door for you, or opens a door for you. When a guy holds open a door for us, does he need to be snapped at ("I'm not an invalid") or ignored? Can't we just smile and say "thank you"? Are we less of a woman if we do that?
I personally recognize that while men and woman should be treated equally, we are different, and always will be. In general, men are hunter-gatherers, and women are carer-nurturers. In improving equality, we can highlight those differences, pull on their strengths. For example, both men and women have equal right to a subway seat, but men don't get periods or miscarry babies ... so why can't they defer to a woman's strength in that area and recognize the impact it has on her body and give her a break? IMHO, teaching men to be respectful of those differences teaches them to be more respectful of women - conversely, attempting to minimize those differences minimizes the respect men should have for women. I'm probably not phrasing this as eloquently and as clearly as others could ...
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Originally posted Saturday, October 31, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "OpeningMinds"
Quoted from "REDHOTnBLUE" One last thought: I do think part of what we can do to help precipitate positive change is to SPEAK OUR TRUTH. Stop being afraid to speak out about what we experience as women in this world, or pretending that everything is "perfect" when it isn't...
I agree with you. However, I believe it's important to be very clear about what IS actually happening, and what one PERCEIVES to be happening. And to take responsibility for your contributions to whatever's going on. It's all well and good to make assumptions of what someone MAY think about how you look, behave, and the lifestyle choices that you have made, but until you actually have real feedback from them (comments, actions), you may be wrong. And one's prejudice based on their own flawed expectations of another's reaction can be harmful to themselves and to society.
Totally true, and an excellent point. As an ex-boyfriend of mine used to say, "Perception is reality" - we project our own views, judgments, fears etc. onto the world and it's sometimes hard to sort through what is "real" and what is perceived.
That said, what I mean here by speaking my truth is that I can simply tell my story - share one woman's perspective on what has happened to me in my life, and not be afraid to share the parts that aren't so shiny and pretty. Be honest and real.
That is actually scary to do sometimes! It's easier to "keep up the facades" and make everyone think that everything is wonderful.
My life is mostly wonderful - I love my life! - but I've been through some pretty awful stuff as well. We all have our own stories to tell.
I'm just tired of hiding mine... Ready to speak out so that other women (and just people in general) maybe feel empowered to do so, as well, and to learn and grow from that and help each other heal (at least, that's the goal!).
Originally posted Tuesday, November 3, 2009 (2 years ago)
Just in case anyone was curious about what The Perfect Woman looks like, here she is... ;)
My Halloween costume featured: a biz suit jacket and pearls; fishnets, mini-skirt and stilettos; an apron; a feather duster (to clean and tickle!); a wooden spoon (to cook and spank!); a tank top that read "OK I'm Perfect Now Stop Staring" and of course a babydoll on each hip. ;
Originally posted Tuesday, November 3, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "mouth"
"The norm" is for people to want and have kids. If you don't want to, there's something wrong with you.
First, she shouldn't be making those assumptions.
But society tells her that's what a woman should want so she does.
I understand there is an additional bite for women, but it goes for men to. You hit a certain age and you don't get married, have kids, and "settled down," there is something wrong with you. You are immature and have chosen not to go on to the next stage of life. I particularly feel it in business environments.
But I have gotten the same kind of comments from friends.
In my opinion, one of the saddest thing about the whole thing is, the result of this societal pressure creates a culture where at least a quarter of the people who have kids should not. They are simply not willing or capable of being good parents, and/or they are having them for the wrong reason. ( i.e., "we are not getting along; let's have kids, that will bring us closer." )
For me, that is the much bigger sin: taking the responsibility for bringing a life into this world and then dropping the ball. And that happens way too often.
Originally posted Tuesday, November 3, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "r_c_s" Why, it's the perfect costume!
Awww thanks! :D Was fun putting it together and throwing the party...
Wexie I think you make an excellent point about parenting. Clearly, I was not ready to be the mom of twins at my Halloween party :wink: (see costume above) since I safety-pinned the babies to my hips, sat on them by accident sometimes, and condoned it when guests fed them beer. :wink:
In all seriousness tho' you are right that some of those who procreate probably should not have done so for the sake of those poor children, and society. Raising a child is an enormous responsibility, and it's not for everyone.
Originally posted Wednesday, February 10, 2010 (2 years ago)
I have written a piece for a friend's blog based largely on this discussion. I've quoted RH&B, Mouth, Zeno, and OpeningMinds. If any of you are concerned about this, PM me & I can send you a copy of the text before it goes up. I'll be able to edit if there's any concern that your ideas were misrepresented. Otherwise, I'll link to it here when it's available, in case you're interested.
How to be the perfect woman...
What does being "the perfect woman" mean to you? I am dressing up as The Perfect Woman for Halloween this year - curious what "The Perfect Woman" means to you... I'll be wearing a business suit, with a baby on each hip, and lingerie and stilettos, and an apron - since The…
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IMHO, your personal decisions involving your body have absolutely NOTHING to do with a total stranger - why would you want to share that information with them anyway? If she asked "how are you today" and you'd just broken up with your boyfriend, screamed at your mother, and were dealing with a bad period, would you tell her? No - because you're a professional and because she's a stranger and a client, you'd simply say "I'm doing great - how are you" because that's what you do in business ... and life would go on. You wouldn't think it's "sad" because you couldn't tell her the truth about your life - and in fact, if you were the one who asked "how are you" and she went into a dialogue about her personal intimate life, you might think "whoa - TMI - I'm not your therapist" or something similar.
"Our minds can shape the way a thing will be because we act according to our expectations." - Federico Fellini
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
OM, that's not an equal comparison. She didn't ask, "how are you?" She engaged me in personal conversation, first of all. And in that personal conversation she ASSUMED that of course I would be having kids and will totally feel exactly the same way she does about them and will make exactly the same life choices she made because that is "the norm".
"The norm" is for people to want and have kids. If you don't want to, there's something wrong with you.
First, she shouldn't be making those assumptions. But society tells her that's what a woman should want so she does.
Second, I should feel completely comfortable, since we're sharing personal stories and thoughts, saying I wouldn't make the same choices she made. But I can't, because society thinks my choices are bad/weird ones. So that would paint me in a negative light to her.
You seem to be missing the point here.
I'm not having a general conversation about whether it's proper to have personal conversations in work environments. In my business it's important to make friends and draw people in personally. So we do that constantly. But we can't show them our flaws. And in this case, what I can't show her isn't my flaw, it's society's.
That's the point.
And one more thing - it's very telling that you compared my decision to not have children with these: "you'd just broken up with your boyfriend, screamed at your mother, and were dealing with a bad period". These are all negative things. So even you are equating my choice - although you have no idea what my thoughts/reasons are - to several awful things in life.
Interesting. And thanks for proving my point. :)
Amen Mouth - I hear ya sister - and I'm standing with ya! (although I agree with Zeno as well that certainly in an ideal world (I try to live there!) we would all have total inner peace, love ourselves completely, and let go of what anyone thinks of us). Yet it's not a "perfect" world...
Thanks for the HuffPo article as well - I saw a Maureen Dowd piece a while back that I think referenced that (same topic).
It is definitely tough to be a woman in modern society with SO many choices (good problem to have in some ways too right? I recognize that). And with so many voices, media, etc. telling us we need to be - thinner, prettier, younger, smarter, richer, whatever... pick your superlative!
Beauty is such a big one as well. I don't think the pressure ever really lets up on woman to look sexy, beautiful, in shape, airbrushed even, no matter what else is happening in their lives (whether a mom, a career-woman, neither or both of these).
Successful men (as defined by society - those who have power, money, fame) don't have to be good looking to land trophy mates. Men can be older, fat, balding - and rich - and still land a young beautiful wife.
Now, this may say something about that woman as well. Is it a need for security or glamour that drives such a match? And perhaps there are cases like the above where it really is true love (who am I to judge???). Just sayin', it's something that I have always felt is "expected" of me - look good, no matter what you're up to. I don't feel that there is quite the same pressure on men.
Of course I want to be healthy, happy, feel good and I make my choices accordingly - I'm a vegetarian, I work out often, I don't smoke and rarely drink alcohol. I meditate daily. I keep healthy practices that keep me looking good (which is a bonus!).
I just would love to raise my (potential, future! ;) daughters to know that their worth is not just about their looks - that they can be what they want to be in this world and not bend to society's expectations - that what matters most is that they find happiness for themselves, be good loving people, etc. Enjoy this life.
I am going to do my best (doing so now!) to live that example.
Zeno you crack me up.
I do appreciate what you are saying about women being comfortable in their own skin, how that is what "the perfect woman is."
Lord knows I've spent thousands on yoga, meditation, life coaches, you name it! in the past several years in the name of inner peace. I'm actually a very happy, healthy, peaceful woman now. I do love who I am and love my life. Am blessed.
And yet it's hard to totally shake all the pressure of societal expectations completely. Perhaps that'll simply continue to get easier with time.
What do you think might precipitate this change?
Seriously, I want my life to be partly ABOUT this... I do hope that the essays, articles, books etc. I write will contribute to this discussion and to transforming the future for women... That's a life goal for me.
How can we be part of a collective movement that will create a different world for our daughters and granddaughters someday (should we have any! or, the daughters of our colleagues and friends...)
One last thought: I do think part of what we can do to help precipitate positive change is to SPEAK OUR TRUTH. Stop being afraid to speak out about what we experience as women in this world, or pretending that everything is "perfect" when it isn't.
That's part of why I'm writing my book, and telling my story. As a woman who has experienced sexual trauma (been raped, been stalked) I have a story to tell both of pain and healing that I think can help other women. Doesn't mean it's easy to tell. It's hard as hell.
But I'm ready to speak my truth to help others.
Part of the reason we can't just let go of what other people think, is that we need to consider what other people think, to check our own judgment. I can't always be right, and in if everyone else disagrees with me, it may be because I'm wrong.
And also... we learn things from listening to what others think. We all have parents, teachers, mentors, advisers, and/or friends whose opinion matters to us. It's not always easy to figure out when to trust our own judgment over someone else's.
My first reaction is to say that really isn't an issue for me. And it certainly is true that I don't feel the need to look sexy, etc, all the time. But the truth is, when I'm going into a situation where I need a little boost in self confidence, I style my hair, put on make-up, and stuff my bra. Every time. (It used to be I'd wear a skirt, nylons, and heels, too... but those days are long gone.)
-- Rachel
I'm not sure you can change things for women without changing men in the process. I have no idea how that would work.
I'm not mouth, obviously, but I have some ideas about this. I think a lot of it is about having something to prove... just like black men often feel they need to be more/better than a white man doing the same thing, just to get a reasonable degree of respect. (And it's not that they just feel that way, they really often do need to do more.) I think we need more good role models, and just more time to get used to how things have changed, in order to be comfortable. The expectations and realities for women have changed a lot in my life time.
When I first entered the professional work world, it was taken as a given that you'd wear a skirted suit with nylons and heels to look professional. Unless you were going for a very artistic profession, you wouldn't think of wearing pants to a job interview. And even then, it might be risky. I know that was already changing, but even a few years ago, there were people who felt skirts were necessary to really look professional. Then Hillary Clinton became a senator, and made a seriously competitive run for president of the United States wearing pants the whole time. Her pants suits were all over the news, too, and just a bit controversial. Now I dare anyone to claim it's not professional to wear pants.
It sounds like a small thing, but to me it's not that small. She wore clothes that weren't sexy, and demanded to be taken seriously for her work/ideas/etc. I love her for the pants suits.
-- Rachel
If that phone call comes at 4:00 am, it's a lot faster to just put on a pair of pants.
My apologies - I don't see those comparisons as negative: they're simply private moments in life. I was trying to compare your choice of having (or not having) children to other things in life that you wouldn't discuss with someone who wasn't in your circle of friends - I assumed those things to be personal. As is your choice of having, or not having, children.
There is a possibility that your client didn't assume you wanted to have children - she simply stated a phrase which society has schooled her to be a reasonable thing to say. There's a possibility that she's in the same trap many of us find ourselves in : she may simply be trying to say the politically correct thing - it may not be her belief at all.
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Interesting point Phlurg... I do think there are more and more "enlightened" men (and women!) in today's society who believe in true equality and want to be true partners in a relationship etc... I know lots of amazing men who ARE wonderful partners to their girlfriends/wives/boyfriends/husbands and who see the worth in intelligent, creative women, successful women, who aren't just interested in beauty or a woman's ability to pop out babies or whatever. Lots of incredible men out there...
That said, old and out-dated and damaging attitudes still prevail both for men and women... I've certainly had to work hard to shake them. Still practicing this - i.e. just being me, living MY best life and not needing the approval of others. (I'm pretty damn good at this now but it doesn't mean I don't judge myself against the yardstick of what I think is "expected" of me sometimes).
Of course that means that sometimes I project my judgments of myself onto the world (we all do this sometimes, I think) and assume that others are judging me - when maybe they are, maybe they are (and really, who cares?).
I think it can be a lifelong journey - finding true inner peace and contentment, just happily being ourselves in the world.
In the meantime would still love to participate in shifting the paradigm further for the girls and women of the future... and do agree that that will likely involve reshaping men's attitudes, as well as women.
Any other men have opinions on this? What could this look like? How do we open up a dialogue so that more men shift their attitudes toward women - which will shape their sons attitudes towards women, and change the future...
I agree with you. However, I believe it's important to be very clear about what IS actually happening, and what one PERCEIVES to be happening. And to take responsibility for your contributions to whatever's going on. It's all well and good to make assumptions of what someone MAY think about how you look, behave, and the lifestyle choices that you have made, but until you actually have real feedback from them (comments, actions), you may be wrong. And one's prejudice based on their own flawed expectations of another's reaction can be harmful to themselves and to society.
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
I think men have changed a lot, when you look back through the years. And, as with women, it's a process of education. And that takes time.
Some things are just never going to change for either of us ... for example, good looks attract. How many women swoon over Mike Myers or Willem Dafoe rather than Brad Pitt of George Clooney? If money was no object, would you go with the ugly car, or the pretty one? And society has certain rules - rarely companies like law firms allow you to wear jeans in the office, so, for example, going to a job interview wearing jeans and, surprise, not getting the job, has nothing to do with the fact that you're a woman.
Times have certainly changed regarding dress - when I first visited New York almost 20 years ago, it seemed that almost every working woman that I saw on the street wore a conservative skirt, nylons and trainers and carried a tote bag which I assumed to contain "pretty" shoes. Rarely do I see this now. Pants and flats are a very common sight. And nylon-less legs seem the norm in summer. Men are often required to wear a suit and tie in certain circumstances, which I believe can be uncomfortable - it's only reasonable that women are expected to be uncomfortable at times too with the clothing required of them.
It is great that society has changed to encourage women to work as well as have children, but the USA is seriously lagging in how they make that doable for women, compared with other western countries. We have the least maternity leave, and very few companies have day-care facilities, etc. To make changes in this area, and others like it, we need more female representatives making the rules for us.
An area that I'd really like to see change is manners - seems there's a dearth in the little things like saying thanks when someone holds the elevator door for you, or opens a door for you. When a guy holds open a door for us, does he need to be snapped at ("I'm not an invalid") or ignored? Can't we just smile and say "thank you"? Are we less of a woman if we do that?
I personally recognize that while men and woman should be treated equally, we are different, and always will be. In general, men are hunter-gatherers, and women are carer-nurturers. In improving equality, we can highlight those differences, pull on their strengths. For example, both men and women have equal right to a subway seat, but men don't get periods or miscarry babies ... so why can't they defer to a woman's strength in that area and recognize the impact it has on her body and give her a break? IMHO, teaching men to be respectful of those differences teaches them to be more respectful of women - conversely, attempting to minimize those differences minimizes the respect men should have for women. I'm probably not phrasing this as eloquently and as clearly as others could ...
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Totally true, and an excellent point. As an ex-boyfriend of mine used to say, "Perception is reality" - we project our own views, judgments, fears etc. onto the world and it's sometimes hard to sort through what is "real" and what is perceived.
That said, what I mean here by speaking my truth is that I can simply tell my story - share one woman's perspective on what has happened to me in my life, and not be afraid to share the parts that aren't so shiny and pretty. Be honest and real.
That is actually scary to do sometimes! It's easier to "keep up the facades" and make everyone think that everything is wonderful.
My life is mostly wonderful - I love my life! - but I've been through some pretty awful stuff as well. We all have our own stories to tell.
I'm just tired of hiding mine... Ready to speak out so that other women (and just people in general) maybe feel empowered to do so, as well, and to learn and grow from that and help each other heal (at least, that's the goal!).
A handy 13 point guide for single dames.
Martinis do not contain vodka. —Rachel Maddow
Just in case anyone was curious about what The Perfect Woman looks like, here she is... ;)
My Halloween costume featured: a biz suit jacket and pearls; fishnets, mini-skirt and stilettos; an apron; a feather duster (to clean and tickle!); a wooden spoon (to cook and spank!); a tank top that read "OK I'm Perfect Now Stop Staring" and of course a babydoll on each hip. ;
So totally awesome!
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Why, it's the perfect costume!
-- Rachel
I understand there is an additional bite for women, but it goes for men to. You hit a certain age and you don't get married, have kids, and "settled down," there is something wrong with you. You are immature and have chosen not to go on to the next stage of life. I particularly feel it in business environments.
But I have gotten the same kind of comments from friends.
In my opinion, one of the saddest thing about the whole thing is, the result of this societal pressure creates a culture where at least a quarter of the people who have kids should not. They are simply not willing or capable of being good parents, and/or they are having them for the wrong reason. ( i.e., "we are not getting along; let's have kids, that will bring us closer." )
For me, that is the much bigger sin: taking the responsibility for bringing a life into this world and then dropping the ball. And that happens way too often.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Awww thanks! :D Was fun putting it together and throwing the party...
Wexie I think you make an excellent point about parenting. Clearly, I was not ready to be the mom of twins at my Halloween party :wink: (see costume above) since I safety-pinned the babies to my hips, sat on them by accident sometimes, and condoned it when guests fed them beer. :wink:
In all seriousness tho' you are right that some of those who procreate probably should not have done so for the sake of those poor children, and society. Raising a child is an enormous responsibility, and it's not for everyone.
I have written a piece for a friend's blog based largely on this discussion. I've quoted RH&B, Mouth, Zeno, and OpeningMinds. If any of you are concerned about this, PM me & I can send you a copy of the text before it goes up. I'll be able to edit if there's any concern that your ideas were misrepresented. Otherwise, I'll link to it here when it's available, in case you're interested.
-- Rachel
I don’t understand this thread.
If a girl can do a perfect swingout, what else is there?
Wait -- what do you mean "perfect swingout"? Is there such a thing?
BTW, the blog post I mentioned above is now public.
-- Rachel
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