Here at Yehoodi Central, we are busy working on polishing and refining the cool features of our new website Yehoodi 3.0 (beta). We are pretty confident that it will take a to a new level our already successful swing dance community website.
I think it can't come too soon.
As several people have related to me, Yehoodi is starting to feel like a ghost town. So where has everyone gone?
Our general webstats continue to be quite strong, averaging around 25K-30K unique visitors and between 1 million and 1.5 million page views each month. That's up from about 20K visitors and about 700K page views a month in 2008.
That said, lately the general number of logged-in users appears to be much lower than in year's past. I rarely see it top a dozen users, whereas in previous years 20-30 logged-in users during the week was not uncommon.
There are of course several possible culprits. The lindy hop community itself might be slowing down, or decreasing in vitality. Yehoodi might have already saturated the existing market, so we aren't experiencing any growth but just maintaining our existing user base.
I personally blame Facebook.
Facebook lindyhop Over the past year, I've observed a significant increase in the amount of lindy hop-related communications taking place on Facebook. Swing exchanges and competitions are using Facebook to do outreach to potential attendees. Dancers are posting their images and videos to Facebook to share with their friends. Sub-groups of dancers continue to be created -- blues dancers of SoCal, collegiate shag addicts, even a Frim Fram group. I even get involved in protracted discussions and debates on Facebook about lindy hop issues.
In the past, a lot of these communications took place on Yehoodi.com. And a lot of them still do, often in parallel to similar exchanges happening on Facebook.
The rise of Facebook as an organizing and communications platform makes a lot of sense. Much of the lindy hop community is in the college age to mid-twenties age bracket, which also are the biggest population of Facebook users in the US.
Facebook offers many social tools for people to socialize, make new friends, play, exchange media, and coordinate activities. And it's functionalities and third-party apps expand constantly.
Facebook is becoming the standard for how people connect with each other socially. People I be-friend at lindy hop events don't email me or IM me on Yehoodi, they send me a Facebook friend request.
So the question for Yehoodi is, how do we provide services and tools for our community beyond what Facebook provides? How does a small, non-profit, volunteer-based community site compete with a multi-bizillion dollar corporation?
Part of the answer is that we go back to our core strengths of Yehoodi and adapt them for a Web2.0 world. That is, we focus and enhance:
* Lindy hop news
* Community discussions
* Swing events and calendars
* Lindy hop media -- music, radio, videos and photos
All of these features of Yehoodi 2.0 are getting a refresh on 3.0 that's we think is going to radically improve our user's experience of the site.
But the other part of the answer for me is the basic difference between the two social platforms. Because the primary advantage of Yehoodi over Facebook is that we are a public commons for the community. Anyone -- from the teenager who just took her first beginner lesson to the 55 year old rediscovering the dance -- can come to Yehoodi and get something out of the site. She doesn't have to befriend someone else in the scene or get invited to join the right Facebook group or even register at all. She can just go to http://yehoodi.com, and click around till she finds what she wants to know.
I've purposely made an "either/or" argument here, but clearly there is room in the lindy hop world for lots of different kinds of internet-based tools and platforms. For certain kinds of communication, Facebook makes sense. For others, Twitter or a wiki or a blog might work better. Yehoodi needs to connect out to the wider social web instead of trying to re-invent the wheel, while also bringing people together within our own platform for our very peculiar and idiosyncratic needs.
It's this openness and social web connectivity that we think Yehoodi 3.0 is going to support even more than before. Which ties back to why we created Yehoodi in the first place 11 years ago -- to create a common space for swing enthusiasts to come together.
Well, I don't wanna say Deathmatch, but I'll give you two other ideas to ponder - Facebook is approaching a point that myspace encountered in the past before we all abandoned it - too many events posting reminders and sending messages to our inbox means too much noise. I'm a little selective about who is my "friend" or what group I'll join - I mean, do I really need to be a fan of every single swing DJ or Balboa night? rly? but facebook is running close to being too spammy to be effective for communication.
Thought 2 - Legacy. Yehoodi wins this one hands down. Though the message archives stop at the great server crash of 200_, you can find every link, picture, and discussion we've ever referenced. That cool video you remember sharing 3 years ago? It's still buried in the YouTube Goldmine. That weird electro-swing CD you wanted to look up - it's still in the message board archives somewhere. Facebook is of the moment exclusively. There's a bit of a past history to run down, but if you want to find the digital breadcrumbs of Lindy they only remain on Yehoodi and will continue to do so.
As a discussion medium, it has been a little quiet round here of late - I just assumed everybody but me had Beta3.0 invites :shrug: .
--R
I don't like joining groups on facebook because they basically keep spamming me and it's annoying. I much prefer Yehoodi for swing-related stuff, because I can see things/be involved when I want to, without it flooding my inbox.
I see facebook as a way to keep up with friends, and yehoodi as a way to keep up with the swing community (whether I know the people IRL or not). So for me personally, the two don't really overlap significantly, but perhaps for others it is different. And I don't like how quiet it has been on here, either.... I just thought that it was perhaps because I am in a far different time zone so maybe I've missed out on some of the 'action' but I guess not....
I cannot access Facebook from my office during the day (nor Flickr), which means I would only have access in the evening from home. So I am not on Facebook.
However, I do have access to Yehoodi during the day, which keeps me in the know as to what is going on. I need my Yehoodi fix!
Rik-- excellent explanation of the issues. Thanks.
Note: as a researcher I must point out that the comments here are heavily skewed to those of us who are logged in frequently to yehoodi. You may need to give it awhile to get other's comments. Or seek them offline.
That said: it is still extremely valid information to hear why each of us are still actively here.
I think the open access of yehoodi is critical. Don't discount what a benefit it is to all the lurkers out there.
Perhaps more should be explored about "Partnering" with facebook. Does yehoodi have a facebook presence that can introduce more people to this site?
I am a "casual" user of facebook: I like it for keeping track of old and new friends. Posting pics also. And have started using it to promote events -- but would never rely on it exclusively for any event. I might find out about something through facebook but then I would go to the site directly to get more information.
Thanks, TOL. I actually posted this both to my personal blog and Facebook pages, so hopefully we'll get some other conversations going with folks who follow me there.
I think that is bang-on. IMHO this isn't about competing with the Fizzy Bizzy, but how can you leverage it for success?
I've been doing a lot of work/research into social media (as much as I loathe that term) for platform success, and i think there are quite a few methods (some easier than others) to take advantage of the Facebook platform, rather than trying to compete with it.
Facebook can definitely add attrition to the Sink, as more people are using FB for their "[bleep!]ing around on the Internet" instead of Yehoodi. And for events, again, you can get into a competitive space. However, any event organizer who promotes soley through FB is kind of an idiot. Just as they would be kind of an idiot to promote it soley through Yehoodi.
"Marcelo, sometimes, your cruelty is delicious." - Frankyboy
-
Want to help save the lives of homeless dogs and cats in Chicago? Support my attempt at running an 8K race - http://mattstratton.com/PAWS2010
Wow, great thread and good points (well said rik and riz), especially what Riz said about legacy. It's hard to filter on facebook but great for dipping in just a toe into my friends lives to see what's up (it's like a balance sheet in accounting--it just focuses on what's happening at this moment right now across a group).
Yehoodi on the other hand is already a filter of sorts: connection starts with common ground, the swing thing (vs connection just being the user), then news, events and forums make for easy scanning (though not as easy as it will be in 3.0). So yehoodi's like a profit and loss statement, covers a period of time; this week, quarter, year, last year, or everything from the start.
Since the beta of yehoodi 3.0 I've been jonesing for it. I've got a few browser bookmarks for threads I want to revisit or bump (ie picture post thread) but would rather use the 3.0 system. I'm starting to see 3.0 as being something between FB and yehoodi 2.0 (watch rik IM me, "earth to frank, that's the whole point of 3.0"). Think it's clear we nee dthe 3.0 juice.
Quoted from "tol" ... the comments here are heavily skewed to those of us who are logged in frequently to yehoodi...
do not overlook this important point.
There's a big crowd of NYU & Columbia kids that pack into Fram every week. I have no idea if they lurk here but either way you should make a double effort to get their opinion.
"Style is originality; fashion is fascism.The two are eternally and unalterably opposed." - Lester Bangs
I agree that the amount of posting is down. I don't visit very often lately. And therefore I have less opportunity to post pictures of Godzilla Bukkake.
(PS Can someone let me know when it's time to post it in this thread? Okthxbai.)
Quoted from "tol" ... the comments here are heavily skewed to those of us who are logged in frequently to yehoodi...
do not overlook this important point.
There's a big crowd of NYU & Columbia kids that pack into Fram every week. I have no idea if they lurk here but either way you should make a double effort to get their opinion.
I'm Facebook friends with a few of the NYU and Columbia dancers. I've posted this to my Facebook feed, so hopefully some of them will see it there and respond.
Might I suggest thinking about ways of (the horror) incorporating Facebook into Yehoodi 3.0? Having a "share on FB" link handy for a post or a thread might be handy. I figure, dancers will see a Yehoodi link posted on FB and migrate on over here to see what's up.
Yeah. Postings do seem down. I wonder whether the economy is also a factor. Folks are busy trying to stay afloat, and probably working hard to stay indispensable at work.
I'm not big on message boards as it's hard to always know if someone's name on Yehoodi is the same as it is in real life. Rik I've known you quite a while, but I actually had to ask DRod if Neal and Eff were one in the same (don't laugh too hard, but if you haven't been in the scene for 10 years). It's hard to get into message boards that way IMHO.
I think Yehoodi 3.0 will make a huge difference with the calendar. From what I understand, organizers can upload their own event info on 3.0 which will keep more people wanting to come here for info. I find lots on the calendar, but lots more through the discussion forums, FB and bandleader mailing lists. If they come for information, hopefully they will more likely want to participate.
Just my two cents... I love Yehoodi and all the things you guys do.
Quoted from "celia" ...which keeps me in the know as to what is going on...
if I need to know what's going on this weekend (or upcoming weeks) swing-wise, the yehoodi calendar (should) be a great place for that. facebook gets too cluttered with so many events (birthdays, random parties, etc), and like theriz said...it's getting spamlike, with organizer that you don't know sending invites to their events that you have no intention of going to.
and I agree about the yehoodi being a good resource as an archive for current and past discussions. where do you start on facebook, to search for a topic/note that someone else was tagged in, but you forget the topic or the original poster of the topic?
once upon a time, I remember when yehoodi had a link/page that told you about the different venues (in nyc), the level of the dancing you can expect, and where you can go take lessons. that was a nice feature, even if the amount of venues in nyc has shrunk drastically over the years, but for classes, I think it could still be a nice feature to inform newbies where they can go take lessons, not just in nyc, but elsewhere as well.
I was typing my previous post on my iPhone, so I was a little more terse than I might have been. Bluesforce made a good point about integrating Facebook into Yehoodi. I really do think this is about leveraging both platforms.
In a way, it's a "if you can't beat them, join them" situation. Think about the music industry - instead of embracing digital distribution, they fought tooth and nail to destroy it. That didn't work. What works is to say "okay, there's this thing out there, and it's not going away. How can we make it work FOR us, instead of trying to work AGAINST it."
The ultimate experience is not going to be a Yehoodi vs Facebook. It's going to be a Yehoodi PLUS Facebook. It's clear that Facebook is good for some stuff, and Yehoodi is good for others. Most users are going to want to combine the two.
In today's Web, you can no longer dictate how people consume your content. People want to get it the way they want to get it - some people like email updates. Others want to consume it via RSS feeds. Others want to use Facebook as their aggregator. You need to be open to all the platforms where your users want to interact with your community and information.
Bluesforce suggested the 'share on Facebook' button. Great idea. What about a "fan page" for Yehoodi, that somehow syndicates some Yehoodi content for the users who prefer to interact with it in that way? Heck, what about a Yehoodi.com app (I realize that is no mean feat, but if we're talking about the real way to make this work, that's one avenue to start exploring).
Like it or not, Facebook has become a powerful platform for Web interaction. Maybe 80 of Yehoodites (especially the older school ones) simply look at Facebook as "that place where I can find my old high school friends and post some pictures or something". But it's rapidly becoming a platform of choice for the next internet generation. Embracing this platform, and even more, exploiting this platform, should be a key factor in the strategy of any online property.
"Marcelo, sometimes, your cruelty is delicious." - Frankyboy
-
Want to help save the lives of homeless dogs and cats in Chicago? Support my attempt at running an 8K race - http://mattstratton.com/PAWS2010
I've noticed a general trend less discussion on forums and even less on the Facebook groups I've joined. Perhaps it's just that people are engaging the community differently, like more in-person interaction or just have less time to spend on-line so traffic is a bit more hit and run.
We have about 180 e-mail addresses on our local e-mail list, about 125 on a Facebook group and currently no discussion forum web site. Facebook and e-mail are great for announcing events but no one really engages in discussions. Facebook is handy for dancers inviting friends which brought in some new people to the publicity has mostly passed through the social networks now. Most of the dancers in our scene communicate more directly within social networks (in-person, text messages, e-mail or through Facebook)
Right on with everything Mugsy said. Finding ways to combine platforms is the way to go.
Also, I will never experience the same sense of community, camaraderie, irreverence, common roots, and repartee on Facebook that I get on Yehoodi. These are the reasons I value Yehoodi - not because of the dance event postings, and not because of the calendar.
Yehoodi and Facebook are different platforms and meet social networking "needs" differently. Even so, I see no reason not to combine them in whatever way possible. It may indeed be key to Yehoodi's continued survival.
"...a brilliant combination of foodie, cold war, vintage and biblical. If you replace cold war with band geek." -kimpossible
One of the advantages of having non-lindyhopper friends on facebook is that of letting them know what's going on in the lindyhop community. Most will sit back and observe or view it as an annoyance, but some might be curious and step over to the other side. While I have not used facebook to convert my non-lindy friends to lindy, I have used it to advertise learn ing another dance, (argentine tango). Believe it or not, a few lindyhoppers have been swayed to try something different. I expect that via facebook one might also do that to get folks interested in lindy.
The Yehoodi server seems to be capable of handling its workload whereas the Facebook one seems unreliable. I get about one friend request per day because of real world networking meetings, and it usually takes me three tries to add the 'friend'.
Doh. It was erinregina. That's what I get for reading this thread on a mobile device.
"Marcelo, sometimes, your cruelty is delicious." - Frankyboy
-
Want to help save the lives of homeless dogs and cats in Chicago? Support my attempt at running an 8K race - http://mattstratton.com/PAWS2010
I think one of the main differences between Facebook and Yehoodi is closed vs. open forum... individual choice vs. pack mentality.
On Facebook, you have already opted in to a network of friends that you have individually approved (indiscriminately perhaps) and so you already know whether you personally value those users' comments, links, photos, events, etc. The personal choice concept means that all of your mom's friends who blather on about their cute nephews have all agreed up front that they're interested in hearing each others' blather. On the other hand, there is a TON of data coming at you constantly, so unless your friend network is three people, you are going to lose track of everything that is going on. It's a high signal-to-noise ratio in theory, but the overload of signal amounts to noise.
On Yehoodi (or any discussion forum) you are opting in to joining an open forum of members. That means anyone that's registered can (and will) participate in a discussion, post events, etc. You personally may have varying degrees of interest in what community members have to offer, but overall you are presented an "unbiased" discussion by the world at large. The downside is that since the forum is open, a small number of "heavies" rise to the the surface and begin to dominate the conversations. This group changes over time, but there is some definite competitive edge to being "taken seriously."
One place Facebook has advantage at the moment is definitely in events. Specific locations, scheduling, attendee listing, etc is a very valuable function to organizers looking to market their event.
But... although the data on events is much more useful, it's difficult to segment events by audience or intent since they are generally identified with a group of people (ie My Friends, swing dancers or not), rather than an open community automatically united by interest. Also things are difficult to search within Facebook, let alone externally on something like Google.
As many have said, we have to find a blend.
Unfortunately for the old-schoolers, there's no way to simply bash new "social" functionality into the existing phpBB framework. It requires overhauling from the ground up, which means an adjustment from the users. Simply put, Yehoodi cannot remain a classical discussion board and also an integrated social "information system".
Those who have been in the Y3.0 beta have seen this. And the vision is difficult to ascertain at the moment because it's the basic framework that must be completed, tested and used before it can be extended. It may be a difficult transition but it is necessary for the "business" of Yehoodi.
I think that someone probably touched on this already, but I think that folks who use both Yehoodi and Facebook (myself included) don't WANT Yehoodi to turn into a lesser version of FB because, well, why have two sites that essentially do the same thing?
As we touched on in our discussions of the beta site, I think most users don't want the "public square" of the discussion boards to go away completely. Personally, that's the ONLY thing that draws me back to Yehoodi daily, because I don't dance anymore and therefore have little use for calendars or event postings. Over the years we have all cultivated some very strong friendships with people across the country (and even the world!) via the discussion board, and it would suck to see that go away.
Many blogs nowadays have "connect via Facebook" links for commenting purposes; maybe that's something that could be integrated? I'm also envisioning something a little like the AMAZING knitting community Ravelry.com (which is still technically in beta mode and may require you to sign up for an invite before you get access to all the features of the site), which integrates its discussion boards with all other aspects of the site in a really easy-to-use format, so that members can post pictures of their projects or works-in-progress and then link to those on the discussion board, etc. I don't know how useful a format like that is to a swing dancing site, but I've found it to be really well thought out and functional for knitters.
i'm with swingkitten... the main reason i'm here these days is social. i dance now and then, but i never travel to events anymore and when i do find out about an event it's usually local (providence/boston), on FB and not even mentioned on yehoodi. i come to yehoodi for the daily amusement of the threads and comments by people i don't know, used to know and want to keep up with. i've been here almost 10 years and i do miss the crazy busy boards of the old days. i hope there's a way to keep yehoodi more relevant. it's an institution (in a number of ways).
Facebook vs. Yehoodi: Social network deathmatch
rikomatic
Here at Yehoodi Central, we are busy working on polishing and refining the cool features of our new website Yehoodi 3.0 (beta). We are pretty confident that it will take a to a new level our already successful swing dance community website.
I think it can't come too soon.
As several people have related to me, Yehoodi is starting to feel like a ghost town. So where has everyone gone?
Our general webstats continue to be quite strong, averaging around 25K-30K unique visitors and between 1 million and 1.5 million page views each month. That's up from about 20K visitors and about 700K page views a month in 2008.
That said, lately the general number of logged-in users appears to be much lower than in year's past. I rarely see it top a dozen users, whereas in previous years 20-30 logged-in users during the week was not uncommon.
There are of course several possible culprits. The lindy hop community itself might be slowing down, or decreasing in vitality. Yehoodi might have already saturated the existing market, so we aren't experiencing any growth but just maintaining our existing user base.
I personally blame Facebook.
Facebook lindyhop Over the past year, I've observed a significant increase in the amount of lindy hop-related communications taking place on Facebook. Swing exchanges and competitions are using Facebook to do outreach to potential attendees. Dancers are posting their images and videos to Facebook to share with their friends. Sub-groups of dancers continue to be created -- blues dancers of SoCal, collegiate shag addicts, even a Frim Fram group. I even get involved in protracted discussions and debates on Facebook about lindy hop issues.
In the past, a lot of these communications took place on Yehoodi.com. And a lot of them still do, often in parallel to similar exchanges happening on Facebook.
The rise of Facebook as an organizing and communications platform makes a lot of sense. Much of the lindy hop community is in the college age to mid-twenties age bracket, which also are the biggest population of Facebook users in the US.
Facebook offers many social tools for people to socialize, make new friends, play, exchange media, and coordinate activities. And it's functionalities and third-party apps expand constantly.
Facebook is becoming the standard for how people connect with each other socially. People I be-friend at lindy hop events don't email me or IM me on Yehoodi, they send me a Facebook friend request.
So the question for Yehoodi is, how do we provide services and tools for our community beyond what Facebook provides? How does a small, non-profit, volunteer-based community site compete with a multi-bizillion dollar corporation?
Part of the answer is that we go back to our core strengths of Yehoodi and adapt them for a Web2.0 world. That is, we focus and enhance:
* Lindy hop news
* Community discussions
* Swing events and calendars
* Lindy hop media -- music, radio, videos and photos
All of these features of Yehoodi 2.0 are getting a refresh on 3.0 that's we think is going to radically improve our user's experience of the site.
But the other part of the answer for me is the basic difference between the two social platforms. Because the primary advantage of Yehoodi over Facebook is that we are a public commons for the community. Anyone -- from the teenager who just took her first beginner lesson to the 55 year old rediscovering the dance -- can come to Yehoodi and get something out of the site. She doesn't have to befriend someone else in the scene or get invited to join the right Facebook group or even register at all. She can just go to http://yehoodi.com, and click around till she finds what she wants to know.
I've purposely made an "either/or" argument here, but clearly there is room in the lindy hop world for lots of different kinds of internet-based tools and platforms. For certain kinds of communication, Facebook makes sense. For others, Twitter or a wiki or a blog might work better. Yehoodi needs to connect out to the wider social web instead of trying to re-invent the wheel, while also bringing people together within our own platform for our very peculiar and idiosyncratic needs.
It's this openness and social web connectivity that we think Yehoodi 3.0 is going to support even more than before. Which ties back to why we created Yehoodi in the first place 11 years ago -- to create a common space for swing enthusiasts to come together.
Flappers, Dandies & Lindy Hoppers Take over Governors Island for the "Jazz Age Lawn Party" (video)
Blowout Final Concert & Dance Competition for 2010 Midsummer Night Swing Festival
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TheRiz
Well, I don't wanna say Deathmatch, but I'll give you two other ideas to ponder - Facebook is approaching a point that myspace encountered in the past before we all abandoned it - too many events posting reminders and sending messages to our inbox means too much noise. I'm a little selective about who is my "friend" or what group I'll join - I mean, do I really need to be a fan of every single swing DJ or Balboa night? rly? but facebook is running close to being too spammy to be effective for communication.
Thought 2 - Legacy. Yehoodi wins this one hands down. Though the message archives stop at the great server crash of 200_, you can find every link, picture, and discussion we've ever referenced. That cool video you remember sharing 3 years ago? It's still buried in the YouTube Goldmine. That weird electro-swing CD you wanted to look up - it's still in the message board archives somewhere. Facebook is of the moment exclusively. There's a bit of a past history to run down, but if you want to find the digital breadcrumbs of Lindy they only remain on Yehoodi and will continue to do so.
As a discussion medium, it has been a little quiet round here of late - I just assumed everybody but me had Beta3.0 invites :shrug: .
--R
Henry Hui Hui
Damn, he's on to us. 8)
Speak only if you can improve the silence. - Quaker saying (via @Rikomatic)
fiddletree
I don't like joining groups on facebook because they basically keep spamming me and it's annoying. I much prefer Yehoodi for swing-related stuff, because I can see things/be involved when I want to, without it flooding my inbox.
I see facebook as a way to keep up with friends, and yehoodi as a way to keep up with the swing community (whether I know the people IRL or not). So for me personally, the two don't really overlap significantly, but perhaps for others it is different. And I don't like how quiet it has been on here, either.... I just thought that it was perhaps because I am in a far different time zone so maybe I've missed out on some of the 'action' but I guess not....
Phlurg
The huge advantage of Facebook: I will never have to listen to Wino's insanity on Facebook because he'll never be my friend.
Wexie
Excellent point!
At least on Facebook, a childhood friend who turned into a right wing wacko, was quickly unfriended.
celia
I cannot access Facebook from my office during the day (nor Flickr), which means I would only have access in the evening from home. So I am not on Facebook.
However, I do have access to Yehoodi during the day, which keeps me in the know as to what is going on. I need my Yehoodi fix!
tol
Rik-- excellent explanation of the issues. Thanks.
Note: as a researcher I must point out that the comments here are heavily skewed to those of us who are logged in frequently to yehoodi. You may need to give it awhile to get other's comments. Or seek them offline.
That said: it is still extremely valid information to hear why each of us are still actively here.
I think the open access of yehoodi is critical. Don't discount what a benefit it is to all the lurkers out there.
Perhaps more should be explored about "Partnering" with facebook. Does yehoodi have a facebook presence that can introduce more people to this site?
I am a "casual" user of facebook: I like it for keeping track of old and new friends. Posting pics also. And have started using it to promote events -- but would never rely on it exclusively for any event. I might find out about something through facebook but then I would go to the site directly to get more information.
rikomatic
Thanks, TOL. I actually posted this both to my personal blog and Facebook pages, so hopefully we'll get some other conversations going with folks who follow me there.
Flappers, Dandies & Lindy Hoppers Take over Governors Island for the "Jazz Age Lawn Party" (video)
Blowout Final Concert & Dance Competition for 2010 Midsummer Night Swing Festival
Mugsy Malone
I think that is bang-on. IMHO this isn't about competing with the Fizzy Bizzy, but how can you leverage it for success?
I've been doing a lot of work/research into social media (as much as I loathe that term) for platform success, and i think there are quite a few methods (some easier than others) to take advantage of the Facebook platform, rather than trying to compete with it.
Facebook can definitely add attrition to the Sink, as more people are using FB for their "[bleep!]ing around on the Internet" instead of Yehoodi. And for events, again, you can get into a competitive space. However, any event organizer who promotes soley through FB is kind of an idiot. Just as they would be kind of an idiot to promote it soley through Yehoodi.
"Marcelo, sometimes, your cruelty is delicious." - Frankyboy
-
Want to help save the lives of homeless dogs and cats in Chicago? Support my attempt at running an 8K race - http://mattstratton.com/PAWS2010
frankyboy
Wow, great thread and good points (well said rik and riz), especially what Riz said about legacy. It's hard to filter on facebook but great for dipping in just a toe into my friends lives to see what's up (it's like a balance sheet in accounting--it just focuses on what's happening at this moment right now across a group).
Yehoodi on the other hand is already a filter of sorts: connection starts with common ground, the swing thing (vs connection just being the user), then news, events and forums make for easy scanning (though not as easy as it will be in 3.0). So yehoodi's like a profit and loss statement, covers a period of time; this week, quarter, year, last year, or everything from the start.
Since the beta of yehoodi 3.0 I've been jonesing for it. I've got a few browser bookmarks for threads I want to revisit or bump (ie picture post thread) but would rather use the 3.0 system. I'm starting to see 3.0 as being something between FB and yehoodi 2.0 (watch rik IM me, "earth to frank, that's the whole point of 3.0"). Think it's clear we nee dthe 3.0 juice.
Zev
There's a big crowd of NYU & Columbia kids that pack into Fram every week. I have no idea if they lurk here but either way you should make a double effort to get their opinion.
"Style is originality; fashion is fascism.The two are eternally and unalterably opposed." - Lester Bangs
Beckto
I agree that the amount of posting is down. I don't visit very often lately. And therefore I have less opportunity to post pictures of Godzilla Bukkake.
(PS Can someone let me know when it's time to post it in this thread? Okthxbai.)
rikomatic
I'm Facebook friends with a few of the NYU and Columbia dancers. I've posted this to my Facebook feed, so hopefully some of them will see it there and respond.
Flappers, Dandies & Lindy Hoppers Take over Governors Island for the "Jazz Age Lawn Party" (video)
Blowout Final Concert & Dance Competition for 2010 Midsummer Night Swing Festival
erinregina
Might I suggest thinking about ways of (the horror) incorporating Facebook into Yehoodi 3.0? Having a "share on FB" link handy for a post or a thread might be handy. I figure, dancers will see a Yehoodi link posted on FB and migrate on over here to see what's up.
catlike
Yeah. Postings do seem down. I wonder whether the economy is also a factor. Folks are busy trying to stay afloat, and probably working hard to stay indispensable at work.
EileenO
For me, there are a few factors...
I'm not big on message boards as it's hard to always know if someone's name on Yehoodi is the same as it is in real life. Rik I've known you quite a while, but I actually had to ask DRod if Neal and Eff were one in the same (don't laugh too hard, but if you haven't been in the scene for 10 years). It's hard to get into message boards that way IMHO.
I think Yehoodi 3.0 will make a huge difference with the calendar. From what I understand, organizers can upload their own event info on 3.0 which will keep more people wanting to come here for info. I find lots on the calendar, but lots more through the discussion forums, FB and bandleader mailing lists. If they come for information, hopefully they will more likely want to participate.
Just my two cents... I love Yehoodi and all the things you guys do.
rikomatic
Thanks everyone for your comments! Super helpful!
Flappers, Dandies & Lindy Hoppers Take over Governors Island for the "Jazz Age Lawn Party" (video)
Blowout Final Concert & Dance Competition for 2010 Midsummer Night Swing Festival
dennisrodman
if I need to know what's going on this weekend (or upcoming weeks) swing-wise, the yehoodi calendar (should) be a great place for that. facebook gets too cluttered with so many events (birthdays, random parties, etc), and like theriz said...it's getting spamlike, with organizer that you don't know sending invites to their events that you have no intention of going to.
and I agree about the yehoodi being a good resource as an archive for current and past discussions. where do you start on facebook, to search for a topic/note that someone else was tagged in, but you forget the topic or the original poster of the topic?
once upon a time, I remember when yehoodi had a link/page that told you about the different venues (in nyc), the level of the dancing you can expect, and where you can go take lessons. that was a nice feature, even if the amount of venues in nyc has shrunk drastically over the years, but for classes, I think it could still be a nice feature to inform newbies where they can go take lessons, not just in nyc, but elsewhere as well.
Mugsy Malone
I was typing my previous post on my iPhone, so I was a little more terse than I might have been. Bluesforce made a good point about integrating Facebook into Yehoodi. I really do think this is about leveraging both platforms.
In a way, it's a "if you can't beat them, join them" situation. Think about the music industry - instead of embracing digital distribution, they fought tooth and nail to destroy it. That didn't work. What works is to say "okay, there's this thing out there, and it's not going away. How can we make it work FOR us, instead of trying to work AGAINST it."
The ultimate experience is not going to be a Yehoodi vs Facebook. It's going to be a Yehoodi PLUS Facebook. It's clear that Facebook is good for some stuff, and Yehoodi is good for others. Most users are going to want to combine the two.
In today's Web, you can no longer dictate how people consume your content. People want to get it the way they want to get it - some people like email updates. Others want to consume it via RSS feeds. Others want to use Facebook as their aggregator. You need to be open to all the platforms where your users want to interact with your community and information.
Bluesforce suggested the 'share on Facebook' button. Great idea. What about a "fan page" for Yehoodi, that somehow syndicates some Yehoodi content for the users who prefer to interact with it in that way? Heck, what about a Yehoodi.com app (I realize that is no mean feat, but if we're talking about the real way to make this work, that's one avenue to start exploring).
Like it or not, Facebook has become a powerful platform for Web interaction. Maybe 80 of Yehoodites (especially the older school ones) simply look at Facebook as "that place where I can find my old high school friends and post some pictures or something". But it's rapidly becoming a platform of choice for the next internet generation. Embracing this platform, and even more, exploiting this platform, should be a key factor in the strategy of any online property.
"Marcelo, sometimes, your cruelty is delicious." - Frankyboy
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Want to help save the lives of homeless dogs and cats in Chicago? Support my attempt at running an 8K race - http://mattstratton.com/PAWS2010
Toon Town Dave
I've noticed a general trend less discussion on forums and even less on the Facebook groups I've joined. Perhaps it's just that people are engaging the community differently, like more in-person interaction or just have less time to spend on-line so traffic is a bit more hit and run.
We have about 180 e-mail addresses on our local e-mail list, about 125 on a Facebook group and currently no discussion forum web site. Facebook and e-mail are great for announcing events but no one really engages in discussions. Facebook is handy for dancers inviting friends which brought in some new people to the publicity has mostly passed through the social networks now. Most of the dancers in our scene communicate more directly within social networks (in-person, text messages, e-mail or through Facebook)
Emmysue4you
Right on with everything Mugsy said. Finding ways to combine platforms is the way to go.
Also, I will never experience the same sense of community, camaraderie, irreverence, common roots, and repartee on Facebook that I get on Yehoodi. These are the reasons I value Yehoodi - not because of the dance event postings, and not because of the calendar.
Yehoodi and Facebook are different platforms and meet social networking "needs" differently. Even so, I see no reason not to combine them in whatever way possible. It may indeed be key to Yehoodi's continued survival.
"...a brilliant combination of foodie, cold war, vintage and biblical. If you replace cold war with band geek." -kimpossible
Jerry
One of the advantages of having non-lindyhopper friends on facebook is that of letting them know what's going on in the lindyhop community. Most will sit back and observe or view it as an annoyance, but some might be curious and step over to the other side. While I have not used facebook to convert my non-lindy friends to lindy, I have used it to advertise learn ing another dance, (argentine tango). Believe it or not, a few lindyhoppers have been swayed to try something different. I expect that via facebook one might also do that to get folks interested in lindy.
slipandslide
The Yehoodi server seems to be capable of handling its workload whereas the Facebook one seems unreliable. I get about one friend request per day because of real world networking meetings, and it usually takes me three tries to add the 'friend'.
BluesForCP
I love being told how brilliant I am. Are you sure this was me, though? I don't remember that at all.
I know that since I rarely dance, I have just found that Facebook suits my needs better.
Not that I am representative of anyone, but I do wonder how many "ex-dancers" feel the same way.
Mugsy Malone
Doh. It was erinregina. That's what I get for reading this thread on a mobile device.
"Marcelo, sometimes, your cruelty is delicious." - Frankyboy
-
Want to help save the lives of homeless dogs and cats in Chicago? Support my attempt at running an 8K race - http://mattstratton.com/PAWS2010
Poke Alex
This is great stuff.
I think one of the main differences between Facebook and Yehoodi is closed vs. open forum... individual choice vs. pack mentality.
On Facebook, you have already opted in to a network of friends that you have individually approved (indiscriminately perhaps) and so you already know whether you personally value those users' comments, links, photos, events, etc. The personal choice concept means that all of your mom's friends who blather on about their cute nephews have all agreed up front that they're interested in hearing each others' blather. On the other hand, there is a TON of data coming at you constantly, so unless your friend network is three people, you are going to lose track of everything that is going on. It's a high signal-to-noise ratio in theory, but the overload of signal amounts to noise.
On Yehoodi (or any discussion forum) you are opting in to joining an open forum of members. That means anyone that's registered can (and will) participate in a discussion, post events, etc. You personally may have varying degrees of interest in what community members have to offer, but overall you are presented an "unbiased" discussion by the world at large. The downside is that since the forum is open, a small number of "heavies" rise to the the surface and begin to dominate the conversations. This group changes over time, but there is some definite competitive edge to being "taken seriously."
One place Facebook has advantage at the moment is definitely in events. Specific locations, scheduling, attendee listing, etc is a very valuable function to organizers looking to market their event.
But... although the data on events is much more useful, it's difficult to segment events by audience or intent since they are generally identified with a group of people (ie My Friends, swing dancers or not), rather than an open community automatically united by interest. Also things are difficult to search within Facebook, let alone externally on something like Google.
As many have said, we have to find a blend.
Unfortunately for the old-schoolers, there's no way to simply bash new "social" functionality into the existing phpBB framework. It requires overhauling from the ground up, which means an adjustment from the users. Simply put, Yehoodi cannot remain a classical discussion board and also an integrated social "information system".
Those who have been in the Y3.0 beta have seen this. And the vision is difficult to ascertain at the moment because it's the basic framework that must be completed, tested and used before it can be extended. It may be a difficult transition but it is necessary for the "business" of Yehoodi.
"Chaw, chi-chaw, chi-chaw." - Lindsay Bluth
SwingKitten
I think that someone probably touched on this already, but I think that folks who use both Yehoodi and Facebook (myself included) don't WANT Yehoodi to turn into a lesser version of FB because, well, why have two sites that essentially do the same thing?
As we touched on in our discussions of the beta site, I think most users don't want the "public square" of the discussion boards to go away completely. Personally, that's the ONLY thing that draws me back to Yehoodi daily, because I don't dance anymore and therefore have little use for calendars or event postings. Over the years we have all cultivated some very strong friendships with people across the country (and even the world!) via the discussion board, and it would suck to see that go away.
Many blogs nowadays have "connect via Facebook" links for commenting purposes; maybe that's something that could be integrated? I'm also envisioning something a little like the AMAZING knitting community Ravelry.com (which is still technically in beta mode and may require you to sign up for an invite before you get access to all the features of the site), which integrates its discussion boards with all other aspects of the site in a really easy-to-use format, so that members can post pictures of their projects or works-in-progress and then link to those on the discussion board, etc. I don't know how useful a format like that is to a swing dancing site, but I've found it to be really well thought out and functional for knitters.
rikomatic
SwingKitten, the yehoodi dev team are big fans of Ravelry! We've stolen lots of their code already. 8)
Flappers, Dandies & Lindy Hoppers Take over Governors Island for the "Jazz Age Lawn Party" (video)
Blowout Final Concert & Dance Competition for 2010 Midsummer Night Swing Festival
joeycat
i'm with swingkitten... the main reason i'm here these days is social. i dance now and then, but i never travel to events anymore and when i do find out about an event it's usually local (providence/boston), on FB and not even mentioned on yehoodi. i come to yehoodi for the daily amusement of the threads and comments by people i don't know, used to know and want to keep up with. i've been here almost 10 years and i do miss the crazy busy boards of the old days. i hope there's a way to keep yehoodi more relevant. it's an institution (in a number of ways).
SwingKitten
Good to know, Rik. Ravelry is the bomb.
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