I have noticed a few couples who dance extremely well but are old school dancers. Is there still a place in the community for them? Do young people still want to dance like it's 1999? These new couples are most likely in their late 30's or early 40's. It seems strange to see them dance but no denying they are very good dancers.
Originally posted Friday, December 11, 2009 (2 years ago)
What exactly to you mean by old school dancers?
I interpret that to mean people who spend a lot of time and effort to lindy hop like it was done in the Savoy Ballroom back in the day. But maybe you mean something else.
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
Originally posted Friday, December 11, 2009 (2 years ago)
Anyway, why would anyone want to dance like it's 1999? I'm embarassed to be seen dancing like it's 2008. If somebody isn't willing to adapt their style to the most recent trends and disregard everything else, they might as well put on "Wade in the Water" and commence the bodyrolling, as far as I'm concerned.
Originally posted Friday, December 11, 2009 (2 years ago)
They do a lot of shag. Not shagging, but shag.
They dress in vintage outfits with black and white shoes but they dress more like the Jean Veloz style of 40's white kids and not the Zoot Suit style. No body rolls, just a lot of kicking and moving about in a circular motion. Not linear like WCS.
Originally posted Friday, December 11, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Signet" I'm not an organizer, but if I was, my venue's bouncer wouldn't let people in off the streets without the proper attire of Aris Allens and a scarf.
Originally posted Friday, December 11, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Chuck Knuckles" ... Is there still a place in the community for them?...
Perhaps you meant to ask "is there still a place in the community for tolerance, individuality, acceptance of things that are different, enjoyment of the dance for the sake of dancing, meeting new people, learning new things about people, etc.?"?
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Originally posted Saturday, December 12, 2009 (2 years ago)
Actually, I think people are shunned nowdays if they wear the suspenders and two tone shoes. Beginners don't know about the latest dance style. Funny thing, I don't think these older people care so much. They are married to each other and primarily dance with each other. They have incorporated some cool moves in their dancing but these moves are not ones you would see today. More like stuff from the days of the Cherry Poppin' Daddies. You can tell they have spent hours learning this dance material. I respect them for daring to be unique.
Originally posted Saturday, December 12, 2009 (2 years ago)
I think it is not so much that they are shunned for wearing suspenders and two-toned shoes, but that they don't try to become involved in the dance community. If they only dance with their wife/husband/partner/etc, they are not allowing an opportunity for anyone to shun them in the first place because they are cutting themselves off from the community to begin with.
Sure, we may snicker a little at their constant pretzels, but I think most of us would be friendly to them, given the opportunity. And if those people decide to involve themselves in the dance community by dancing and talking with other swing dancers, they will probably stop with the two-toned shoes style soon enough. (edited to say that some two toned shoes are awesome. But some of them are really cheesy and cheap and not classy at all.)
I also don't think it is them daring to be 'unique', I think newbies often have an image in their mind of what a 'swing dancer' dresses like, and treat it like a costume. So it is more that they are trying to conform to their preconceived idea of what they should look like.
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
Originally posted Saturday, December 12, 2009 (2 years ago)
I agree that, what someone wears shouldn't really matter, just as long as they are open to have people approach and talk, even dance with them. On the same note however, especially when starting off dancing, one should try to dress up a little (im not talking full suite but a semi casual dress), Increases your chances of being asked to dance. But for the most part i look old school look because you can actually see it in person instead of in pictures.
Originally posted Saturday, December 12, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quote I have noticed a few couples who dance extremely well but are old school dancers. Is there still a place in the community for them?
It's a shame that it's come to this. When the NYC "community" got big in the 90's, dances were differentiated mainly by geography or by style of music, but dancers could easily move around within the community without wondering if there was a place for them. Back then there was still a fair number of people who did lindy when it was new, and they mixed with the kids and the middle agers, and it was all good.
I myself am now very middle age and I look it. I never feel welcome on those occasions when I can make it to frim fram. Most people there don't know me, and it's not uncommon for the first few follows to decline when I ask them to dance.
However, once I do get a dance, I guess people see that I'm not going to hurt anybody, I have rhythm, and I might even know what I'm doing. Once I get dancing, nobody seems to care that I dance "old school." Most will dance with me more than once in an evening. So I think there is a place for old school dancing, but there might not be a place for old school dancers.
Originally posted Saturday, December 12, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Chuck Knuckles" Actually, I think people are shunned nowdays if they wear the suspenders and two tone shoes.
Well, specifically black & white wingtips (and to a lessor degree other styles). Two tone of other combinations like brown/tan, black/brown, etc don't have any stigma so far as I can tell.
Quote Beginners don't know about the latest dance style. Funny thing, I don't think these older people care so much. They are married to each other and primarily dance with each other. They have incorporated some cool moves in their dancing but these moves are not ones you would see today. More like stuff from the days of the Cherry Poppin' Daddies. You can tell they have spent hours learning this dance material. I respect them for daring to be unique.
We have a few couples in the LA dance scene that have a very "vintage" look to their dancing and dress, but are fantastic dancers who blow away most anyone else around them and are very well respected for it. It isn't "good ECS" in polyester zoot suits; It's undeniably badass Lindy Hop in real vintage 40's attire.
I really wish more people danced and taught those styles...it's a lot more "Lindy Hop" to me then the very-WCS inspired Wiggle Hop that we get shoveled these days....
Originally posted Saturday, December 12, 2009 (2 years ago)
woah, I agree with Zenin! The sky must be falling.
Vintage styled dancing (and real vintage clothing) is pretty much the best thing there is. I am much more into the more 'old' (aka authentic) style of lindy hop than grooving and wiggling to modern cr p.
But that isn't the same thing as what chuck knuckles is talking about. But then again, he is basically asking 'is there a place in the community for people who don't want to be a part of the community?'. I think that is sort of... well, self explanatory. There is a place in the dance community for all sorts, but not for those who don't want to be in it (which means interacting with other people than your partner).
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
Originally posted Sunday, December 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
We are not really old skool, nor shaggers (collegiate, I assume you mean), nor dress vintage. We started dancing ten years ago. Although we are indeed an old married couple (Jerry and Celia), I can think of nothing better, more invigorating, or inspiring than to dance with our fellow lindyhoppers. To each his/her own, but I feel this is a significant part of the social dance experience.
Originally posted Sunday, December 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Chuck Knuckles" Actually, I think people are shunned nowdays if they wear the suspenders and two tone shoes.
Good point. I wore these shoes to the Holiday Tea at Three dance, and no one would dance with me.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/rikomatic/3755723228/" title="Vans new "wingtips era" sneakers by rikomatic, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2624/3755723228_10c27e07f7.jpg" width="500" height="333" alt="Vans new "wingtips era" sneakers" /></a>
Originally posted Sunday, December 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
In response to Nugby, It probably doesn't matter if you are a good dancer or not, most girls will turn down older guys they don't know simply on principle. It is no fault of yours or theirs, but instead they have been conditioned and raised to give single older men a stigma. And if they don't know, they would probably not be inclined to dance with you.
On the actually topic of this post as i understand it, is not speaking of the true original lindy hoppers, but those who began in the 90s and haven't managed to evolve with the dance, because let's face it, the dancing in the 90s was a different style of dancing than Frankie and Norma and Al pioneered. The influence of West Coast is undeniable, especially when watching older videos and and older dancers.
The new generation (let's face it, the revival is in a second generation) have really fought to get back to the roots laid down at the savoy, and innovate and build on that. Some of it works and some doesn't, but the bottom line is that the quality of dancing has changed in recent years, and some of the original revivalists have fallen behind. And that is ok, it happens, and there is absolutely still a place for them, but they need to understand that things have changed for dancers starting out today.
Originally posted Sunday, December 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Chuck Knuckles" I have noticed a few couples who dance extremely well but are old school dancers. Is there still a place in the community for them? Do young people still want to dance like it's 1999? These new couples are most likely in their late 30's or early 40's. It seems strange to see them dance but no denying they are very good dancers.
Quoted from "joninho22" ... The new generation (let's face it, the revival is in a second generation) have really fought to get back to the roots laid down at the savoy, and innovate and build on that. Some of it works and some doesn't, but the bottom line is that the quality of dancing has changed in recent years, and some of the original revivalists have fallen behind. And that is ok, it happens, and there is absolutely still a place for them, but they need to understand that things have changed for dancers starting out today.
Seems like we're talking about two completely different things ... doesn't seem like the couples Chuck Knuckles is talking about are particularly bothered about what anyone else is doing. They're doing there own thing. And why shouldn't there be room for them?
IMHO most older people understand that the world is changing at an incredible rate - the dance world included. And most young people forget that older people have been through multiple changes already - and managed just fine, whether they totally adapt or not. I doubt Dawn Hampton or Charlie Mead are walking around with their smart phones, texting everyone all the time. We don't all have to be the same. And provided EVERYONE understands that tenet, IMHO there will always be room in the community for everyone who wants to be in the community. And being in the community means simply showing up, and trying not to cause a ruckus. One day the young 'uns will be older ... less "hip" ... and lonelier. Hopefully the new young 'uns then will be more tolerant and welcoming of them.
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Originally posted Sunday, December 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "nugby" ... I myself am now very middle age and I look it.
I often feel the same.
Quoted from "nugby" I never feel welcome on those occasions when I can make it to frim fram. Most people there don't know me, and it's not uncommon for the first few follows to decline when I ask them to dance...
Prejudice is an awful thing, isn't it.
I'm sorry you feel that way, though - it's never been my experience. Next time you're at Fram, please ask me to dance! Unless I've already been asked for that song, I won't decline!
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Originally posted Monday, December 14, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "rikomatic"
Quoted from "Chuck Knuckles" Actually, I think people are shunned nowdays if they wear the suspenders and two tone shoes.
Good point. I wore these shoes to the Holiday Tea at Three dance, and no one would dance with me.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/rikomatic/3755723228/" title="Vans new "wingtips era" sneakers by rikomatic, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2624/3755723228_10c27e07f7.jpg" width="500" height="333" alt="Vans new "wingtips era" sneakers" /></a>
Um... did you try wearing pants and a shirt along with your shoes ?
Originally posted Monday, December 14, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Signet" Anyway, why would anyone want to dance like it's 1999? I'm embarassed to be seen dancing like it's 2008. If somebody isn't willing to adapt their style to the most recent trends and disregard everything else, they might as well put on "Wade in the Water" and commence the bodyrolling, as far as I'm concerned.
You are correct about bodyrolling (yecch) but trends? Lindy should not be trendy if it was originally a street dance. Sure, the kids danced in ballrooms but it was not a structured, ballroom dance. Why change it to make it trendy? We once liked that retro look of the dance. Some people are making it too precise and less improvised. Did people really think of "lines" and perfect frame in 1935? I don't think there were many group classes in 1935. My parents never went to a dance camp or an exchange and they won dance contests.
Originally posted Monday, December 14, 2009 (2 years ago)
We approach the dance a different way, now. Frankie used to say all the time that the main difference today is that we have people teaching us to dance... back in the day there weren't classes (and thus no camps) and there weren't exchanges.
I think they probably cared about their lines and their frame back then, because they had awesome lines and frame (at least the people we watch clips of). I don't think it just happened magically, I think they had to work at it.
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
Originally posted Monday, December 14, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "fiddletree" ... I think they probably cared about their lines and their frame back then, because they had awesome lines and frame (at least the people we watch clips of). I don't think it just happened magically, I think they had to work at it.
Are the people we see in clips dancers who rehearsed routines or who danced very regularly? Or social dancers who didn't dance that often? From other old non-dancing random photos, it seems that people back then had better posture (I also remember my grandmas (both) always telling me to sit up straight, and keep my head up and shoulders back when I stood). So perhaps a good frame came fairly naturally to the dancers. It seems too that people "dressed" when they went out - whether it was to a ball game, the theater or a dance. And I guess they wanted to be seen at their best - so perhaps their posture in dance reflected that too.
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Originally posted Monday, December 14, 2009 (2 years ago)
Chuck, now I'm confused.
Is your question whether the new "old school" couples who are content just doing their new "old moves" while dressed like they were in the 40's belong? Or is it, do all the current instructors pushing the level and aesthetic of the dance to something more flowing and beautiful to watch belong?
Also, did you see the clip of Jean and her brother in the jam circle at Glen Echo? Does that affect your opinion about whether older dancers doing moves with a different flair are shunned? Jean's style in that clip actually reminded me of 2 young sisters from Florida that the leads trip over themselves to dance with (despite the fact that they occasionally wear suspenders). I would have never thought to label them "old school", or as anything other than fun to dance with for that matter.
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I have noticed a few couples who dance extremely well but are old school dancers. Is there still a place in the community for them? Do young people still want to dance like it's 1999? These new couples are most likely in their late 30's or early 40's. It seems strange to see them dance but no denying they are very good dancers.
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Why thank you.
What exactly to you mean by old school dancers?
I interpret that to mean people who spend a lot of time and effort to lindy hop like it was done in the Savoy Ballroom back in the day. But maybe you mean something else.
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
I thought he meant people who started dancing at the beginning of the modern swing revival. (ie, Gap commercial era)
- James
Anyway, why would anyone want to dance like it's 1999? I'm embarassed to be seen dancing like it's 2008. If somebody isn't willing to adapt their style to the most recent trends and disregard everything else, they might as well put on "Wade in the Water" and commence the bodyrolling, as far as I'm concerned.
- James
They do a lot of shag. Not shagging, but shag. They dress in vintage outfits with black and white shoes but they dress more like the Jean Veloz style of 40's white kids and not the Zoot Suit style. No body rolls, just a lot of kicking and moving about in a circular motion. Not linear like WCS.
I'm not an organizer, but if I was, my venue's bouncer wouldn't let people in off the streets without the proper attire of Aris Allens and a scarf.
- James
I dance like it's 1939.
But I gave up on the vintage attire ages ago.
Reuben Brown - www.JiveJunction.com - Southern California
Hahahaha
Perhaps you meant to ask "is there still a place in the community for tolerance, individuality, acceptance of things that are different, enjoyment of the dance for the sake of dancing, meeting new people, learning new things about people, etc.?"?
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Actually, I think people are shunned nowdays if they wear the suspenders and two tone shoes. Beginners don't know about the latest dance style. Funny thing, I don't think these older people care so much. They are married to each other and primarily dance with each other. They have incorporated some cool moves in their dancing but these moves are not ones you would see today. More like stuff from the days of the Cherry Poppin' Daddies. You can tell they have spent hours learning this dance material. I respect them for daring to be unique.
How about shoes like this:
Think the wearer would be shunned?
Or how about these?
Tailored trousers with no belt loops can only be worn with suspenders - I'd be happy to dance with someone who has such class.
What about those bright-print shirts? Or untucked shiny satin shirts? Would those wearers be shunned?
You say beginners don't know about the latest dance style - what is it?
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
I think it is not so much that they are shunned for wearing suspenders and two-toned shoes, but that they don't try to become involved in the dance community. If they only dance with their wife/husband/partner/etc, they are not allowing an opportunity for anyone to shun them in the first place because they are cutting themselves off from the community to begin with.
Sure, we may snicker a little at their constant pretzels, but I think most of us would be friendly to them, given the opportunity. And if those people decide to involve themselves in the dance community by dancing and talking with other swing dancers, they will probably stop with the two-toned shoes style soon enough. (edited to say that some two toned shoes are awesome. But some of them are really cheesy and cheap and not classy at all.)
I also don't think it is them daring to be 'unique', I think newbies often have an image in their mind of what a 'swing dancer' dresses like, and treat it like a costume. So it is more that they are trying to conform to their preconceived idea of what they should look like.
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
I agree that, what someone wears shouldn't really matter, just as long as they are open to have people approach and talk, even dance with them. On the same note however, especially when starting off dancing, one should try to dress up a little (im not talking full suite but a semi casual dress), Increases your chances of being asked to dance. But for the most part i look old school look because you can actually see it in person instead of in pictures.
It's a shame that it's come to this. When the NYC "community" got big in the 90's, dances were differentiated mainly by geography or by style of music, but dancers could easily move around within the community without wondering if there was a place for them. Back then there was still a fair number of people who did lindy when it was new, and they mixed with the kids and the middle agers, and it was all good.
I myself am now very middle age and I look it. I never feel welcome on those occasions when I can make it to frim fram. Most people there don't know me, and it's not uncommon for the first few follows to decline when I ask them to dance.
However, once I do get a dance, I guess people see that I'm not going to hurt anybody, I have rhythm, and I might even know what I'm doing. Once I get dancing, nobody seems to care that I dance "old school." Most will dance with me more than once in an evening. So I think there is a place for old school dancing, but there might not be a place for old school dancers.
Well, specifically black & white wingtips (and to a lessor degree other styles). Two tone of other combinations like brown/tan, black/brown, etc don't have any stigma so far as I can tell.
We have a few couples in the LA dance scene that have a very "vintage" look to their dancing and dress, but are fantastic dancers who blow away most anyone else around them and are very well respected for it. It isn't "good ECS" in polyester zoot suits; It's undeniably badass Lindy Hop in real vintage 40's attire.
I really wish more people danced and taught those styles...it's a lot more "Lindy Hop" to me then the very-WCS inspired Wiggle Hop that we get shoveled these days....
woah, I agree with Zenin! The sky must be falling.
Vintage styled dancing (and real vintage clothing) is pretty much the best thing there is. I am much more into the more 'old' (aka authentic) style of lindy hop than grooving and wiggling to modern cr p.
But that isn't the same thing as what chuck knuckles is talking about. But then again, he is basically asking 'is there a place in the community for people who don't want to be a part of the community?'. I think that is sort of... well, self explanatory. There is a place in the dance community for all sorts, but not for those who don't want to be in it (which means interacting with other people than your partner).
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
We are not really old skool, nor shaggers (collegiate, I assume you mean), nor dress vintage. We started dancing ten years ago. Although we are indeed an old married couple (Jerry and Celia), I can think of nothing better, more invigorating, or inspiring than to dance with our fellow lindyhoppers. To each his/her own, but I feel this is a significant part of the social dance experience.
Jean Veloz dancing in 1944
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKAbinFYhqo
and here in 2006
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0wtfoHj4Jw
awesome- thanks for posting that!!
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
ditto on that posting. So smooth and gorgeous to watch.
Sounds like fun.
I'm not an old timer, by any means, but I don't care what the trends are, or what's authentic, for that matter. I just wanna have a good time.
-- Rachel
Good point. I wore these shoes to the Holiday Tea at Three dance, and no one would dance with me. <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/rikomatic/3755723228/" title="Vans new "wingtips era" sneakers by rikomatic, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2624/3755723228_10c27e07f7.jpg" width="500" height="333" alt="Vans new "wingtips era" sneakers" /></a>
Why It Took Me 13 Years to Learn the Big Apple • My hiphop crew Freeplay performing at the Dance-a-Rama (video).
In response to Nugby, It probably doesn't matter if you are a good dancer or not, most girls will turn down older guys they don't know simply on principle. It is no fault of yours or theirs, but instead they have been conditioned and raised to give single older men a stigma. And if they don't know, they would probably not be inclined to dance with you.
On the actually topic of this post as i understand it, is not speaking of the true original lindy hoppers, but those who began in the 90s and haven't managed to evolve with the dance, because let's face it, the dancing in the 90s was a different style of dancing than Frankie and Norma and Al pioneered. The influence of West Coast is undeniable, especially when watching older videos and and older dancers.
The new generation (let's face it, the revival is in a second generation) have really fought to get back to the roots laid down at the savoy, and innovate and build on that. Some of it works and some doesn't, but the bottom line is that the quality of dancing has changed in recent years, and some of the original revivalists have fallen behind. And that is ok, it happens, and there is absolutely still a place for them, but they need to understand that things have changed for dancers starting out today.
Seems like we're talking about two completely different things ... doesn't seem like the couples Chuck Knuckles is talking about are particularly bothered about what anyone else is doing. They're doing there own thing. And why shouldn't there be room for them?
IMHO most older people understand that the world is changing at an incredible rate - the dance world included. And most young people forget that older people have been through multiple changes already - and managed just fine, whether they totally adapt or not. I doubt Dawn Hampton or Charlie Mead are walking around with their smart phones, texting everyone all the time. We don't all have to be the same. And provided EVERYONE understands that tenet, IMHO there will always be room in the community for everyone who wants to be in the community. And being in the community means simply showing up, and trying not to cause a ruckus. One day the young 'uns will be older ... less "hip" ... and lonelier. Hopefully the new young 'uns then will be more tolerant and welcoming of them.
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
I often feel the same.
Prejudice is an awful thing, isn't it.
I'm sorry you feel that way, though - it's never been my experience. Next time you're at Fram, please ask me to dance! Unless I've already been asked for that song, I won't decline!
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Um... did you try wearing pants and a shirt along with your shoes ?
You are correct about bodyrolling (yecch) but trends? Lindy should not be trendy if it was originally a street dance. Sure, the kids danced in ballrooms but it was not a structured, ballroom dance. Why change it to make it trendy? We once liked that retro look of the dance. Some people are making it too precise and less improvised. Did people really think of "lines" and perfect frame in 1935? I don't think there were many group classes in 1935. My parents never went to a dance camp or an exchange and they won dance contests.
We approach the dance a different way, now. Frankie used to say all the time that the main difference today is that we have people teaching us to dance... back in the day there weren't classes (and thus no camps) and there weren't exchanges.
I think they probably cared about their lines and their frame back then, because they had awesome lines and frame (at least the people we watch clips of). I don't think it just happened magically, I think they had to work at it.
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
Are the people we see in clips dancers who rehearsed routines or who danced very regularly? Or social dancers who didn't dance that often? From other old non-dancing random photos, it seems that people back then had better posture (I also remember my grandmas (both) always telling me to sit up straight, and keep my head up and shoulders back when I stood). So perhaps a good frame came fairly naturally to the dancers. It seems too that people "dressed" when they went out - whether it was to a ball game, the theater or a dance. And I guess they wanted to be seen at their best - so perhaps their posture in dance reflected that too.
"Change your thoughts, and you change your world" - Norman Vincent Peale.
Chuck, now I'm confused.
Is your question whether the new "old school" couples who are content just doing their new "old moves" while dressed like they were in the 40's belong? Or is it, do all the current instructors pushing the level and aesthetic of the dance to something more flowing and beautiful to watch belong?
Also, did you see the clip of Jean and her brother in the jam circle at Glen Echo? Does that affect your opinion about whether older dancers doing moves with a different flair are shunned? Jean's style in that clip actually reminded me of 2 young sisters from Florida that the leads trip over themselves to dance with (despite the fact that they occasionally wear suspenders). I would have never thought to label them "old school", or as anything other than fun to dance with for that matter.
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