I looked for a topic answering this, but did not find one. I'm writing a curriculum for 6th graders centered around swing dancing (theoretical, I'm in grad school, but someday it could become reality.) Part of the curriculum would be exploring the patterns inherent in the music and the dance, but my own memory of that is foggy. I know it's usually in 3/4 or 4/4 time, and the numbers 4,8 and 32 are ringing bells. There's a pattern for how the music usually repeats itself. Perhaps the musical term for what I'm asking is phrasing? My brain is a little fried from all the projects and papers or else I would be able to articulate my question better, or perhaps remember what it is myself.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Please and thank you!
Originally posted Monday, December 14, 2009 (2 years ago)
Hi Robin,
No prob.
Swing music is generally in 4/4 meter (the steps really don't fit a 3/4 meter, which would be better suited to a waltz). But there is a triple feel to each beat because the eighth notes are swung (think about the triple steps in swing dancing: triple steps "trip-le-step").
Also, the structure of the music is basically broken down into units of fours, from the four beats of a measure, to the four measures in a phrase. Double that, and you've got your melody.
So here's some general structure:
1. 4/4 meter, meaning four beats in a measure.
2. Four measures (each of four beats, which would add up to 16 beats total) is typically the smallest phrase unit. This, obviously, isn't written in stone and can change based on the creativity of the song, but in general terms, this is what you would expect.
3. Eight measures (each of four beats, which would add up to 32 beats) is the completed phrase structure, which would constitute the basic melody of the work. We think of the two four measure phrases as a question (the first four measures) and the answer (the second four measures) of a sentence (yes, as if you were speaking).
And then, there's a grander structure of the work, which is usually:
1. Head. This is the tune of the work. There's usually the basic opening melody, a middle melody (a bridge section), and then a return to the basic melody. We call that A-B-A form (sometimes A-B-A'1, if there's any modifications on the melody on its repeat).
2. Solos - each musician taking turns going through the chords of the head (including bridge et. al). Sometimes they'll just go through one cycle of the chords, but sometimes they'll keep going, meaning that they're taking multiple choruses.
3. Sometimes musicians do a little fun thing called trading 4s - basically, they trade off soloing on four measures, with a drum filling in four measures in between each soloist. You just have to listen to know how many choruses they're taking - it changes based on how many people are trading fours.
4. Back to the head. Sometimes there's a repeat of the last four measures to end the tune, or some other kind of coda section.
Hope that helps a bit!
Anna
"If music be the food of love, play on!" - Shakespeare
Originally posted Monday, December 14, 2009 (2 years ago)
This is very helpful to me as well for other reasons. One comment and one question:
Comment: I have heard dancers (myself included) use the term "phrase" to refer to the 2 measures, i.e. 8 counts, that make up the common unit of dance (i.e. the swingout). I first heard this when playing old-time music, and while some of the structure in jazz is related to old-time music (especially tin pan alley), I can't tell if all the swing people I have heard this used by are actually influenced by old-timey music or if it is used by others as well. It seems most musicians look at me like I am crazy when I say "phrase" to mean 8-counts.
Question: how does the term "Chorus" fit in here? I am used to it referring to the typical 32 beat (i.e. Swing Chorus" or four eight-counts) pattern of the melody and also heard it referred to the macro-structure (i.e. something longer which I don't understand.)
And I assume a "chorus" in a blues progression would be six times eight beats long?
I am sure I have learned all this at one time or three before, but I seem to have a major mental block about retaining it.
:oops:
Originally posted Monday, December 14, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "tol" This is very helpful to me as well for other reasons. One comment and one question:
Comment: I have heard dancers (myself included) use the term "phrase" to refer to the 2 measures, i.e. 8 counts, that make up the common unit of dance (i.e. the swingout). I first heard this when playing old-time music, and while some of the structure in jazz is related to old-time music (especially tin pan alley), I can't tell if all the swing people I have heard this used by are actually influenced by old-timey music or if it is used by others as well. It seems most musicians look at me like I am crazy when I say "phrase" to mean 8-counts.
This is exactly why I was sure to say that the amount of measures in a phrase is really dependent on the music. You can, in fact, divide things up in two bar units, too, which yes, would constitute the beats of a swing out.
I really like to think of the two measures as a "half phrase" or "module" because making sense of the music gets cumbersome otherwise. You can do a lot more, smoothly and musically, if you think of the larger phrase units instead of chopping it up. But you can absolutely split it up even further - and some music really calls for it.
Quote
Question: how does the term "Chorus" fit in here? I am used to it referring to the typical 32 beat (i.e. Swing Chorus" or four eight-counts) pattern of the melody and also heard it referred to the macro-structure (i.e. something longer which I don't understand.)
And I assume a "chorus" in a blues progression would be six times eight beats long?
Well, a jazz chorus is pretty much one time through the entire progression. So, with a 12-bar blues - it's 12 bars. But, I'm speaking of blues as a chord progression, not necessarily a style of playing. Different progressions are different lengths - not always 12 bars (though 12 bars is a pretty common one).
The word "chorus" has other meanings in other forms of music. Usually in popular music, the "chorus" refers to the main melody. So in pop songs, it's the catchiest melody, that usually contains the title or meaning of the song. In jazz, it's a bit different - we just call going through the changes again another "chorus."
[/quote]
Hope that helps!
"If music be the food of love, play on!" - Shakespeare
Originally posted Monday, December 14, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "tol" This is very helpful to me as well for other reasons. One comment and one question:
Comment: I have heard dancers (myself included) use the term "phrase" to refer to the 2 measures, i.e. 8 counts, that make up the common unit of dance (i.e. the swingout).
AFAIK there isn't really an accepted musical term for specifically our "dancer's 8". In classical musical terms "phrase" doesn't easily have a specific meaning, at least not mathematically. In simple music like we dance to however, it is pretty specifically the larger verse and bridge sections and nearly always fits into a very reliable mathematical structure.
Quote I first heard this when playing old-time music, and while some of the structure in jazz is related to old-time music (especially tin pan alley), I can't tell if all the swing people I have heard this used by are actually influenced by old-timey music or if it is used by others as well. It seems most musicians look at me like I am crazy when I say "phrase" to mean 8-counts.
You might get fewer odd looks if you qualify it as a, "2 bar phrase", but that's still probably pushing it.
Quote Question: how does the term "Chorus" fit in here? I am used to it referring to the typical 32 beat (i.e. Swing Chorus" or four eight-counts) pattern of the melody and also heard it referred to the macro-structure (i.e. something longer which I don't understand.)
And I assume a "chorus" in a blues progression would be six times eight beats long?
The jazz music we dance to by and large does not use choruses at all. A chorus is a sibling term to verse and bridge, it is the musical refrain or "lick", a phrase that repeats itself. Our dance music mostly uses verses with bridges (AABA = verse, verse, bridge, verse), rather then verses with choruses (ABAB = verse, chorus, verse, chorus). For an example gospel music frequently uses verse-chorus structure, with the verses song by a soloist telling the story and the chorus being song by the choir adding emphasis. In AABA and ABAB verses tend to build tension, bridges and choruses release tension.
And yes, a blues progression phrase would most commonly be 6 x 8, although it can often feel like 3 x 16 or 3 x ( 8 8 ), if you know what I mean. ;-) Structurally however, 12-bar blues is often (although by no means exclusively) AAA.... Eg, all verses with no bridge or chorus. The inner structure of a single 12-bar blues phrase intrinsically builds and releases tension (two steps forward, one step back). The build/release is more incremental then typical AABA, ABAB forms.
Originally posted Monday, December 14, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Zenin"
The jazz music we dance to by and large does not use choruses at all.
You are very wrong about this. I play jazz. We call going through the changes again during our solos as "taking another chorus."
Whether or not you like the term (because it doesn't match with your definition of choruses from other forms of music. And let's be very clear - a bridge in jazz is not the same as a chorus, even in the terms you're talking about), in the larger structure of a tune you might dance to, there's almost always a section where instrumentalists solo X times through the changes.
And 12 bar blues is one of the only exceptions to a tune that doesn't exactly have a bridge (though, you can argue that the third set of four bars could be viewed as a very small kind of bridge because of the quicker harmony shifts). But let's not confuse these people. They wanted the basics of musical structure that you'll find in tunes that we dance to. If we get into all the exceptions, they'll be very lost (and I imagine you'd be a little over your head).
"If music be the food of love, play on!" - Shakespeare
Originally posted Monday, December 14, 2009 (2 years ago)
Generally, I always feel like I'm banging my head against a wall when talking music with dancers... So, I've offered what I can at this point. Hope it helps. I'm bowing out. :wink:
"If music be the food of love, play on!" - Shakespeare
Originally posted Monday, December 14, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "pocotell"
Quoted from "Zenin"
The jazz music we dance to by and large does not use choruses at all.
You are very wrong about this.
:roll:
Quote I play jazz. We call going through the changes again during our solos as "taking another chorus."
You can call it taking a goldfish if you'd like, it matters not to a discussion of musical structure and definitions. Traditional Jazz and swing just does not use choruses very often in its phrasing structure.
Quote Whether or not you like the term (because it doesn't match with your definition of choruses from other forms of music. And let's be very clear - a bridge in jazz is not the same as a chorus, even in the terms you're talking about), in the larger structure of a tune you might dance to, there's almost always a section where instrumentalists solo X times through the changes.
While we're talking about traditional jazz and swing the phrasing structure doesn't typically get abandoned during solos, much the opposite. A clarinet may solo for two verses, followed by a piano for the bridge, and a sax to close the last verse. Even when they completely abandon the main melody, they still play to the structure. The chord progressions remain, if there's a counter-melody it remains. There is a method to the madness. Or at least there is if the band is any good. ;-)
When we get into later jazz styles all rules change/get thrown out, but no one (worth dancing with) dances to straight-ahead or bebop.
Quote And 12 bar blues is one of the only exceptions to a tune that doesn't exactly have a bridge
Did you mean this to be so sweeping a statement? Because 12 bar blues is far, far from being special in this regard.
Quote (though, you can argue that the third set of four bars could be viewed as a very small kind of bridge because of the quicker harmony shifts).
True. Similarly you could argue the first two sets of four are really a two bar verse and two bar chorus. Effectively making it: verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge. ;-) There's a blues dance teacher in San Diego that I watched break it down that way at last year's Swingin' New Years, which the dancers did seem to pick up on well.
Quote (and I imagine you'd be a little over your head).
Originally posted Tuesday, December 15, 2009 (2 years ago)
A few comments:
Although the scores used in swing arrangements are written in 4/4, the dancers are generally "thinking" 8/4. It's actually easier to analyze the structure of swing music if you think of the smallest unit as one containing 8 beats, so most musicality workshop classes do things that way ... hence the use of structural notations like AABA, AAAB, etc.
A useful concept in analyzing the structure of swing music is to think of it as a non-verbal analog of poetry. Personally, I consider each set of 8 beats to correspond to "a line" and four sets of 8 beat "lines" to correspond to "a stanza" (32 beats). A song generally consists of at least one set of four "stanzas" (a "chorus").
Note: Stanzas in blues are longer - a "stanza" in blues consists of six "lines" (48 beats).
Some songs consist of a single unit of four stanzas (one "chorus"). Longer songs may contain one or more additional units of four stanzas ... sometimes organized into a structure of "choruses" that may itself have a pattern like AABA. Solos fit into these choruses. A single chorus song in performance may be sung through one time, followed by a series of instrumental solos, and end with a repetition of the song.
If you look at lyric sheets for swing tunes, you will often find that the verbal poetry when written apart from the score is divided up into verses in exactly this fashion. A simple example of this are the lyrics for "I'm Beginning to See the Light":
Quote I never cared much for moonlit skies
I never wink back at fireflies
But now that the stars are in your eyes
I'm beginning to see the light
I never went in for afterglow
Or candlelight on the mistletoe
But now when you turn the lamp down low
I'm beginning to see the light
Used to ramble through the park
Shadowboxing in the dark
Then you came and caused a spark
That's a four-alarm fire now
I never made love by lantern-shine
I never saw rainbows in my wine
But now that your lips are burning mine
I'm beginning to see the light
This song has an AABA structure. Note that all "A" stanzas end with the line "I'm beginning to see the light" and the "B" stanza (which has a different melody from the others) does not. Note also that there is also a consistent structure within each stanza that is repeated throughout the song. The "A" stanzas consist of two lines beginning with "I never", one line beginning with "But now", and a final line beginning with "I'm beginning".
With regard to blues - in addition to stanzas that contain 16 additional beats , there are often other structural elements you don't see in "standard" 4-line stanza swing.
Often you will find that each sentence in the lyrics ends with a one syllable word on the ninth beat (first beat of the second set of 8 beats). The bass line continues for the next seven beats without lyrics, creating a larger unit consisting of 16 beats.
When this happens you will also generally see the next 16 beats are a repetition (or repetition with a minor variation) of the first 16 beats, completing a "call and response". This creates 32 beat unit consisting of two identical (or nearly identical) 16 beat units.
When all of the above happens, generally a final 16 beat unit closes off the stanza
Simple example - First stanza of "Blow Wind Blow":
Quote When the sun rose this morning,I didn't have my baby by my ...
side. [2-3-4-5-6-7-8]
When the sun rose this morning, I didn't have my baby by my ...
side. [2-3-4-5-6-7-8]
I don't know where she was, I know she's out with some another ...
guy. [2-3-4-5-6-7-8]
One thing not mentioned in this thread up to now are the places within swing tunes where jazz dancers (tap dancers especially, but also many lindy dancers) insert break steps. Break steps happen when musically and rhythmically there is a sense of closure ending one unit so another can begin. Theoretically, the last line of each stanza can be used for this as it is with tunes used for dancing the Shim Sham routine, because each stanza is a complete unit. But the last line of the last stanza is a particularly good place to insert a break step because this line establishes closure for the entire chorus - a "big ending" as opposed to several "small endings" that precede this line. In an arrangement that follows the "First chorus, instrumental solos, final chorus" (or similar) there will be periodic "big break opportunities" at the end of each chorus.
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
Originally posted Tuesday, December 15, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Benitados"
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Please and thank you!
Robin
A practical note - If you find anything in this thread useful, don't simply cut and paste what you find into your paper. Use your own words. Teachers are taught to spot changes in writing style from what they find in your written work on exams and such as a way to spot use of "term paper mill" material in lieu of doing original work.
Also - use the web and the library to find your own examples of swing music/charts/lyrics to back up what you say. Teachers (especially at the undergraduate/graduate college/university level) greatly prefer evidence of "original source" research over any other kind of cited source. In the case of swing music, the recordings, charts and lyric sheets are the "original source" material and your argument will carry the most weight if you find examples of this on your own and use it to back up your arguments.
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
Originally posted Tuesday, December 15, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "tol" Comment: I have heard dancers (myself included) use the term "phrase" to refer to the 2 measures, i.e. 8 counts, that make up the common unit of dance (i.e. the swingout).
In general for musicians, "phrase" is a term for a musical thought. You could think of it as a musical sentence, or if you're listening to a wind player, the musical section that the musician takes a breath before and after. It could be just a few beats or many measures.
I've found that dancers usually use it to mean a paragraph (An 'A' of an AABA) or a whole chapter (AABA). I usually try to avoid the word altogether when talking about music with dancers because its meaning is pretty ambiguous.
Originally posted Tuesday, December 15, 2009 (2 years ago)
Research Dalcroze Eurhythmics lessons. Basically it's a method of teaching music through kinesthetic rhythms. One basic "lesson" is having the class start walking around the room, then having them all walk at the same pace without music present (which means they become more perceptive of the motions of everyone else in the room). Another is rolling a ball back and forth on the beat with a partner (so for every beat the ball would reach the other partner, object is for it to get there on the beat). There are a slew of similar exercises but for 6th grade you need something that's active and can still portray what those different rhythms are.
Of all the music methods I studied I really like Dalcroze because it centered on getting everyone moving to the music without realizing they were. Awesome for people who "don't have rhythm" because it offers another cognitive pathway that doesn't involve most of the blocks they have with "rhythm." Also ties in perfectly to the world of dance.
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
Originally posted Tuesday, December 15, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Racetrack"
Quoted from "Benitados"
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Please and thank you!
Robin
A practical note - If you find anything in this thread useful, don't simply cut and paste what you find into your paper. Use your own words. Teachers are taught to spot changes in writing style from what they find in your written work on exams and such as a way to spot use of "term paper mill" material in lieu of doing original work.
Dude - she's in grad school, not grade school.
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
Originally posted Tuesday, December 15, 2009 (2 years ago)
Air - point taken. This was really just a general statement-out-of-habit. Lately most of the time I've responded to online requests like this it's involved people with less academic experience. Even first year grad students often need to focus on basic things like this - which is why most grad schools offer a first year/first semester course in "research skills".
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
Originally posted Tuesday, December 15, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "pocotell"
Quoted from "Zenin"
The jazz music we dance to by and large does not use choruses at all.
You are very wrong about this. I play jazz. We call going through the changes again during our solos as "taking another chorus."
It's pretty clear that y'all have latched onto different definitions of "chorus." I've seen "chorus" applied to a complete runthrough of a tune from top to bottom (presumably, the entire AABA, or entire 12 bar blues cycle), whereas I've also seen it applied to the refrain of a song. (ABABABAB.... or ABA'BA''BA'''B.... B=chorus). I think both definitions are correct, but apply in different contexts.
Originally posted Wednesday, December 16, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "lotsoflindy"
Quoted from "Shanabanana"
Quoted from "Zenin"
Quoted from "Shanabanana" or if you're listening to a wind player, the musical section that the musician takes a breath before and after.
As a player of mostly larger wind instruments (bass sax, tuba, euphonium), I can say I take a breath whenever I possibly can, phrasing be dammed. ;-)
Then you must not be a very good one. :)
Now that's funny, lol
True enough. ;-)
I'm just lucky arrangers take pity on the large winds and give us really short phrases most of the time. I believe the 2 beat trad jazz bass line came about specifically because tubas & sousaphones were the choice bass instrument before amplification. Almost no tuba player can keep a solid 4 beat bass line going through an entire song the way string bass players do, but you can't march down Bourbon Street playing a string bass either.
Originally posted Thursday, December 17, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Zenin" I'm just lucky arrangers take pity on the large winds and give us really short phrases most of the time. I believe the 2 beat trad jazz bass line came about specifically because tubas & sousaphones were the choice bass instrument before amplification. Almost no tuba player can keep a solid 4 beat bass line going through an entire song the way string bass players do, but you can't march down Bourbon Street playing a string bass either.
couldn't they just use 2 tuba players?
(if you're correct, I wish they would. I know I'm missing out on a lot of fun, and I used to kinda like it, but at this point I've had it up to here with the 2 beat trad jazz bass line.)
"Style is originality; fashion is fascism.The two are eternally and unalterably opposed." - Lester Bangs
Originally posted Thursday, December 17, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Zev" couldn't they just use 2 tuba players?
Hah, good idea ;-)
Quote (if you're correct, I wish they would. I know I'm missing out on a lot of fun, and I used to kinda like it, but at this point I've had it up to here with the 2 beat trad jazz bass line.)
It can be over done to be sure. I'm a fan of bass saxophone for the bass line myself, as it has a much easier time adding texture and variance since it's drastically smoother and more responsive then a tuba. I really like the players that meld back and forth between the bass line and something of a counter melody, in a way you just can't replicate well on tuba or string bass. There's some fantastic bass saxophone work like this on this album (check the track I'm Gonna Meet My Sweetie Now in particular), including a couple great bass sax duets trading 8s (two bass saxophones!! Who the hell has two!?). Not every track on that album uses bass sax, but a lot do.
Additionally it transitions roles well so a good bass sax solo can be very melodic and rich, easily as strong a soloing instrument as any other, rather then the "oh god, not a damn thumping bass solo" that plagues both tuba and (plucked) string bass (more string bass players need to stop being lazy and pickup a friggin' bow if they want to solo, sheesh!)
Originally posted Thursday, December 17, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Chuck Knuckles" Eric Dolphy played bass clarinet.
I would think it might be able to carry a bass line.
Not quite like a tuba though.
Hmm, could be interesting. I'd say it would be too mellow, but a string bass is a pretty mellow sound. I can't recall hearing anyone try to carry a classic jazz bass line with a bass clarinet, although it would have the advantage of not requiring nearly as much air as tuba or sax not to mention far easier then all the above to travel with. ;-)
Not half bad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxFVSsCRxHw
This guy is helped out by a string bass doubling the bass line, but most of the sound is carried by the bass clarinet and sounds pretty good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFFT-k887T4
I admit I kinda like it, and the practicality of so much bass in such an easy to transport package is pretty tempting. Not to mention a bass clarinet is far more responsive then a bass sax or tuba (although they are all bass winds and as such are as agile as a cargo ship). I haven't picked up a clarinet in a good fifteen years, but this may lure me back just on portability alone. Time to search for eBay for recession prices on used horns. Thanks Chuck. :-)
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basic structure of swing music
I looked for a topic answering this, but did not find one. I'm writing a curriculum for 6th graders centered around swing dancing (theoretical, I'm in grad school, but someday it could become reality.) Part of the curriculum would be exploring the patterns inherent in the music and the dance, but my own memory of that is foggy. I know it's usually in 3/4 or 4/4 time, and the numbers 4,8 and 32 are ringing bells. There's a pattern for how the music usually repeats itself. Perhaps the musical term for what I'm asking is phrasing? My brain is a little fried from all the projects and papers or else I would be able to articulate my question better, or perhaps remember what it is myself.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Please and thank you!
Robin
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Hi Robin,
No prob.
Swing music is generally in 4/4 meter (the steps really don't fit a 3/4 meter, which would be better suited to a waltz). But there is a triple feel to each beat because the eighth notes are swung (think about the triple steps in swing dancing: triple steps "trip-le-step").
Also, the structure of the music is basically broken down into units of fours, from the four beats of a measure, to the four measures in a phrase. Double that, and you've got your melody.
So here's some general structure: 1. 4/4 meter, meaning four beats in a measure. 2. Four measures (each of four beats, which would add up to 16 beats total) is typically the smallest phrase unit. This, obviously, isn't written in stone and can change based on the creativity of the song, but in general terms, this is what you would expect. 3. Eight measures (each of four beats, which would add up to 32 beats) is the completed phrase structure, which would constitute the basic melody of the work. We think of the two four measure phrases as a question (the first four measures) and the answer (the second four measures) of a sentence (yes, as if you were speaking).
And then, there's a grander structure of the work, which is usually: 1. Head. This is the tune of the work. There's usually the basic opening melody, a middle melody (a bridge section), and then a return to the basic melody. We call that A-B-A form (sometimes A-B-A'1, if there's any modifications on the melody on its repeat). 2. Solos - each musician taking turns going through the chords of the head (including bridge et. al). Sometimes they'll just go through one cycle of the chords, but sometimes they'll keep going, meaning that they're taking multiple choruses. 3. Sometimes musicians do a little fun thing called trading 4s - basically, they trade off soloing on four measures, with a drum filling in four measures in between each soloist. You just have to listen to know how many choruses they're taking - it changes based on how many people are trading fours. 4. Back to the head. Sometimes there's a repeat of the last four measures to end the tune, or some other kind of coda section.
Hope that helps a bit! Anna
"If music be the food of love, play on!" - Shakespeare
Thank you very much! That was exactly what I was hazily remembering and looking for. :)
This is very helpful to me as well for other reasons. One comment and one question:
Comment: I have heard dancers (myself included) use the term "phrase" to refer to the 2 measures, i.e. 8 counts, that make up the common unit of dance (i.e. the swingout). I first heard this when playing old-time music, and while some of the structure in jazz is related to old-time music (especially tin pan alley), I can't tell if all the swing people I have heard this used by are actually influenced by old-timey music or if it is used by others as well. It seems most musicians look at me like I am crazy when I say "phrase" to mean 8-counts.
Question: how does the term "Chorus" fit in here? I am used to it referring to the typical 32 beat (i.e. Swing Chorus" or four eight-counts) pattern of the melody and also heard it referred to the macro-structure (i.e. something longer which I don't understand.)
And I assume a "chorus" in a blues progression would be six times eight beats long?
I am sure I have learned all this at one time or three before, but I seem to have a major mental block about retaining it. :oops:
This is exactly why I was sure to say that the amount of measures in a phrase is really dependent on the music. You can, in fact, divide things up in two bar units, too, which yes, would constitute the beats of a swing out.
I really like to think of the two measures as a "half phrase" or "module" because making sense of the music gets cumbersome otherwise. You can do a lot more, smoothly and musically, if you think of the larger phrase units instead of chopping it up. But you can absolutely split it up even further - and some music really calls for it.
Well, a jazz chorus is pretty much one time through the entire progression. So, with a 12-bar blues - it's 12 bars. But, I'm speaking of blues as a chord progression, not necessarily a style of playing. Different progressions are different lengths - not always 12 bars (though 12 bars is a pretty common one).
The word "chorus" has other meanings in other forms of music. Usually in popular music, the "chorus" refers to the main melody. So in pop songs, it's the catchiest melody, that usually contains the title or meaning of the song. In jazz, it's a bit different - we just call going through the changes again another "chorus." [/quote]
Hope that helps!
"If music be the food of love, play on!" - Shakespeare
AFAIK there isn't really an accepted musical term for specifically our "dancer's 8". In classical musical terms "phrase" doesn't easily have a specific meaning, at least not mathematically. In simple music like we dance to however, it is pretty specifically the larger verse and bridge sections and nearly always fits into a very reliable mathematical structure.
You might get fewer odd looks if you qualify it as a, "2 bar phrase", but that's still probably pushing it.
The jazz music we dance to by and large does not use choruses at all. A chorus is a sibling term to verse and bridge, it is the musical refrain or "lick", a phrase that repeats itself. Our dance music mostly uses verses with bridges (AABA = verse, verse, bridge, verse), rather then verses with choruses (ABAB = verse, chorus, verse, chorus). For an example gospel music frequently uses verse-chorus structure, with the verses song by a soloist telling the story and the chorus being song by the choir adding emphasis. In AABA and ABAB verses tend to build tension, bridges and choruses release tension.
And yes, a blues progression phrase would most commonly be 6 x 8, although it can often feel like 3 x 16 or 3 x ( 8 8 ), if you know what I mean. ;-) Structurally however, 12-bar blues is often (although by no means exclusively) AAA.... Eg, all verses with no bridge or chorus. The inner structure of a single 12-bar blues phrase intrinsically builds and releases tension (two steps forward, one step back). The build/release is more incremental then typical AABA, ABAB forms.
You are very wrong about this. I play jazz. We call going through the changes again during our solos as "taking another chorus."
Whether or not you like the term (because it doesn't match with your definition of choruses from other forms of music. And let's be very clear - a bridge in jazz is not the same as a chorus, even in the terms you're talking about), in the larger structure of a tune you might dance to, there's almost always a section where instrumentalists solo X times through the changes.
And 12 bar blues is one of the only exceptions to a tune that doesn't exactly have a bridge (though, you can argue that the third set of four bars could be viewed as a very small kind of bridge because of the quicker harmony shifts). But let's not confuse these people. They wanted the basics of musical structure that you'll find in tunes that we dance to. If we get into all the exceptions, they'll be very lost (and I imagine you'd be a little over your head).
"If music be the food of love, play on!" - Shakespeare
Generally, I always feel like I'm banging my head against a wall when talking music with dancers... So, I've offered what I can at this point. Hope it helps. I'm bowing out. :wink:
"If music be the food of love, play on!" - Shakespeare
:roll:
You can call it taking a goldfish if you'd like, it matters not to a discussion of musical structure and definitions. Traditional Jazz and swing just does not use choruses very often in its phrasing structure.
While we're talking about traditional jazz and swing the phrasing structure doesn't typically get abandoned during solos, much the opposite. A clarinet may solo for two verses, followed by a piano for the bridge, and a sax to close the last verse. Even when they completely abandon the main melody, they still play to the structure. The chord progressions remain, if there's a counter-melody it remains. There is a method to the madness. Or at least there is if the band is any good. ;-)
When we get into later jazz styles all rules change/get thrown out, but no one (worth dancing with) dances to straight-ahead or bebop.
Did you mean this to be so sweeping a statement? Because 12 bar blues is far, far from being special in this regard.
True. Similarly you could argue the first two sets of four are really a two bar verse and two bar chorus. Effectively making it: verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge. ;-) There's a blues dance teacher in San Diego that I watched break it down that way at last year's Swingin' New Years, which the dancers did seem to pick up on well.
Hah, sure honey.
A few comments:
A useful concept in analyzing the structure of swing music is to think of it as a non-verbal analog of poetry. Personally, I consider each set of 8 beats to correspond to "a line" and four sets of 8 beat "lines" to correspond to "a stanza" (32 beats). A song generally consists of at least one set of four "stanzas" (a "chorus").
Note: Stanzas in blues are longer - a "stanza" in blues consists of six "lines" (48 beats).
Some songs consist of a single unit of four stanzas (one "chorus"). Longer songs may contain one or more additional units of four stanzas ... sometimes organized into a structure of "choruses" that may itself have a pattern like AABA. Solos fit into these choruses. A single chorus song in performance may be sung through one time, followed by a series of instrumental solos, and end with a repetition of the song.
If you look at lyric sheets for swing tunes, you will often find that the verbal poetry when written apart from the score is divided up into verses in exactly this fashion. A simple example of this are the lyrics for "I'm Beginning to See the Light":
This song has an AABA structure. Note that all "A" stanzas end with the line "I'm beginning to see the light" and the "B" stanza (which has a different melody from the others) does not. Note also that there is also a consistent structure within each stanza that is repeated throughout the song. The "A" stanzas consist of two lines beginning with "I never", one line beginning with "But now", and a final line beginning with "I'm beginning".
With regard to blues - in addition to stanzas that contain 16 additional beats , there are often other structural elements you don't see in "standard" 4-line stanza swing.
Often you will find that each sentence in the lyrics ends with a one syllable word on the ninth beat (first beat of the second set of 8 beats). The bass line continues for the next seven beats without lyrics, creating a larger unit consisting of 16 beats.
When this happens you will also generally see the next 16 beats are a repetition (or repetition with a minor variation) of the first 16 beats, completing a "call and response". This creates 32 beat unit consisting of two identical (or nearly identical) 16 beat units.
When all of the above happens, generally a final 16 beat unit closes off the stanza
Simple example - First stanza of "Blow Wind Blow":
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
A practical note - If you find anything in this thread useful, don't simply cut and paste what you find into your paper. Use your own words. Teachers are taught to spot changes in writing style from what they find in your written work on exams and such as a way to spot use of "term paper mill" material in lieu of doing original work.
Also - use the web and the library to find your own examples of swing music/charts/lyrics to back up what you say. Teachers (especially at the undergraduate/graduate college/university level) greatly prefer evidence of "original source" research over any other kind of cited source. In the case of swing music, the recordings, charts and lyric sheets are the "original source" material and your argument will carry the most weight if you find examples of this on your own and use it to back up your arguments.
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
In general for musicians, "phrase" is a term for a musical thought. You could think of it as a musical sentence, or if you're listening to a wind player, the musical section that the musician takes a breath before and after. It could be just a few beats or many measures.
I've found that dancers usually use it to mean a paragraph (An 'A' of an AABA) or a whole chapter (AABA). I usually try to avoid the word altogether when talking about music with dancers because its meaning is pretty ambiguous.
Research Dalcroze Eurhythmics lessons. Basically it's a method of teaching music through kinesthetic rhythms. One basic "lesson" is having the class start walking around the room, then having them all walk at the same pace without music present (which means they become more perceptive of the motions of everyone else in the room). Another is rolling a ball back and forth on the beat with a partner (so for every beat the ball would reach the other partner, object is for it to get there on the beat). There are a slew of similar exercises but for 6th grade you need something that's active and can still portray what those different rhythms are.
Of all the music methods I studied I really like Dalcroze because it centered on getting everyone moving to the music without realizing they were. Awesome for people who "don't have rhythm" because it offers another cognitive pathway that doesn't involve most of the blocks they have with "rhythm." Also ties in perfectly to the world of dance.
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
Dude - she's in grad school, not grade school.
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
Air - point taken. This was really just a general statement-out-of-habit. Lately most of the time I've responded to online requests like this it's involved people with less academic experience. Even first year grad students often need to focus on basic things like this - which is why most grad schools offer a first year/first semester course in "research skills".
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
It's pretty clear that y'all have latched onto different definitions of "chorus." I've seen "chorus" applied to a complete runthrough of a tune from top to bottom (presumably, the entire AABA, or entire 12 bar blues cycle), whereas I've also seen it applied to the refrain of a song. (ABABABAB.... or ABA'BA''BA'''B.... B=chorus). I think both definitions are correct, but apply in different contexts.
As a player of mostly larger wind instruments (bass sax, tuba, euphonium), I can say I take a breath whenever I possibly can, phrasing be dammed. ;-)
Then you must not be a very good one. :)
Now that's funny, lol
True enough. ;-)
I'm just lucky arrangers take pity on the large winds and give us really short phrases most of the time. I believe the 2 beat trad jazz bass line came about specifically because tubas & sousaphones were the choice bass instrument before amplification. Almost no tuba player can keep a solid 4 beat bass line going through an entire song the way string bass players do, but you can't march down Bourbon Street playing a string bass either.
Not to mention that you have to march a long way from LA just to get to Bourbon Street!
"A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having" - V
couldn't they just use 2 tuba players?
(if you're correct, I wish they would. I know I'm missing out on a lot of fun, and I used to kinda like it, but at this point I've had it up to here with the 2 beat trad jazz bass line.)
"Style is originality; fashion is fascism.The two are eternally and unalterably opposed." - Lester Bangs
Hah, good idea ;-)
It can be over done to be sure. I'm a fan of bass saxophone for the bass line myself, as it has a much easier time adding texture and variance since it's drastically smoother and more responsive then a tuba. I really like the players that meld back and forth between the bass line and something of a counter melody, in a way you just can't replicate well on tuba or string bass. There's some fantastic bass saxophone work like this on this album (check the track I'm Gonna Meet My Sweetie Now in particular), including a couple great bass sax duets trading 8s (two bass saxophones!! Who the hell has two!?). Not every track on that album uses bass sax, but a lot do.
Additionally it transitions roles well so a good bass sax solo can be very melodic and rich, easily as strong a soloing instrument as any other, rather then the "oh god, not a damn thumping bass solo" that plagues both tuba and (plucked) string bass (more string bass players need to stop being lazy and pickup a friggin' bow if they want to solo, sheesh!)
Eric Dolphy played bass clarinet. I would think it might be able to carry a bass line. Not quite like a tuba though.
Hmm, could be interesting. I'd say it would be too mellow, but a string bass is a pretty mellow sound. I can't recall hearing anyone try to carry a classic jazz bass line with a bass clarinet, although it would have the advantage of not requiring nearly as much air as tuba or sax not to mention far easier then all the above to travel with. ;-)
God bless Google. Wow, I was so wrong. :-P
Found a couple:
Not half bad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxFVSsCRxHw
This guy is helped out by a string bass doubling the bass line, but most of the sound is carried by the bass clarinet and sounds pretty good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFFT-k887T4
I admit I kinda like it, and the practicality of so much bass in such an easy to transport package is pretty tempting. Not to mention a bass clarinet is far more responsive then a bass sax or tuba (although they are all bass winds and as such are as agile as a cargo ship). I haven't picked up a clarinet in a good fifteen years, but this may lure me back just on portability alone. Time to search for eBay for recession prices on used horns. Thanks Chuck. :-)
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